Handheld Oscilloscope for Automotive

[live2fish88]

Hey guys. I am into automotive diagnosis (12V) and would like to learn how to use a scope, but don't want to spend a ton of money on my first one. I would also like something that i can set the gains on my car amplifiers with. I'm not too familiar with them but would like your opinions. Trying to keep it under 200 USD but closer to 150. Thanks!

[live2fish88]

Anybody?

[maginnovision]

Most diagnosis only requires a meter, and your budget is low enough I wouldn't recommend much. The cheapest thing would probably be something like a hantek 2d82 but I don't know about the quality, lots of people had problems here and they start about 50 over your budget. My first auto scope was a fluke 98 series II but checking eBay they are WAY over your budget.

Is this for professional use? If so save up for something tough and decent. If not find other ways to diagnose issues. A meter really covers 95+% of diag until you can afford a quality scope.

[don.r]

If you are testing only audio frequencies then a Mustool MT8206 might work for you. About $70 on Banggood/Aliexpress. Its only single channel but has the benefit of an added crappy DMM attached. 

[Gyro]

Wow, the third such thread in a couple of weeks...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/budget-handheld-scope/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-cheap-handheld-scope-to-buy-with-good-triggering/

[live2fish88]

Yes, I would like to use the scope to look at the sine wave coming from my subwoofer amplifier. I would also like to be able to read sensors & the CAN network in vehicles. I own several decent multi meters already and use them for diagnostics already but I enjoy new challenges & an o scope looks like it lol. I don't mind used, but again, I know nothing about o scopes besides what I've seen visually. I saw the pico 2204a but don't know if it's good for my uses. Looking at you guys like my mentors, I trust you! I'm experienced in other things and hope those forum members listen to me as well lol

[maginnovision]

Looking at can is a big ask for that price, assuming you don't want to plug the scope into the wall all the time. Just looking at audio there are a lot of lousy scopes that work. If you don't need accuracy or decoding and you're very careful that extends to everything. So you really can choose any cheapo you like. All you'll be doing for audio is watching for clipping, and the rest you just look for sanity.

[Gyro]

Yes, I would like to use the scope to look at the sine wave coming from my subwoofer amplifier. I would also like to be able to read sensors & the CAN network in vehicles. I own several decent multi meters already and use them for diagnostics already but I enjoy new challenges & an o scope looks like it lol. I don't mind used, but again, I know nothing about o scopes besides what I've seen visually. I saw the pico 2204a but don't know if it's good for my uses. Looking at you guys like my mentors, I trust you! I'm experienced in other things and hope those forum members listen to me as well lol

You're brave!   

As for the 2204a, you can't really go wrong with Pico stuff, although there is of course a price premium over the Chinese offerings. You're also moving the goal posts a bit - (the 2204a being USB), however if you're open to USB then it does certainly open up your options a bit. Check out the Pico automotive stuff too (both the dedicated scopes and probes for standard scopes).

[live2fish88]

What handheld can I cut my teeth on without getting frustrated from lack of features? I don't mind USB as I have both a gaming laptop and a laptop I'm not afraid to get dirty. What is available for what I need in my price range here? I don't want to outgrow it too quick but once I have the hang of it I'll have a better understanding of what I need and don't need. You guys can just get me what I need NOW.

[Gyro]

Do check out the suggestions in the two threads I linked, but generally with handhelds...

- You're less likely to get 2 channels with a (lowish cost) handheld against a USB of the same price. That will get frustrating more or less immediately.
- Screen size and resolution is an obvious limitation
- Ease of selecting functions and changing settings will potentially more fiddly and frustrating.
- You need to check bandwidth and particularly triggering options carefully.


P.S. Not ignoring you from now on - I'm off to bed!

[live2fish88]

So it looks like I'll get more out of a usb based scope? So what can we look in these scopes? I think I'd need two channel at least but if one channel is more quality, I'm all for that.

[maginnovision]

So was this for professional use? I don't think you answered that. The reason automotive scopes are typically self contained units is because anything else is a pain in the ass. When I look at something under the hood I set the scope down and probe it. Are you going to leave the laptop in there too(you shouldn't), or run cables everywhere you need it? It's just not practical, it wastes time and will put you off of using it.

I really think you should save your money and either buy one of the hantek units(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-2c422c722d422d72/), a used fluke(since they're decent and the cheapest "good" handhelds), or don't save and buy a cheapy chinese one that tickles your fancy. BW doesn't matter, sample rate BARELY matters, memory barely matters(few k is fine)... All of those things are true for what you're probably looking to do with amplifiers as well. Ideally you get a 2 channel so you can more easily look at related signals(like 2 O2 sensors) but even that is a bonus. Another nearly must have feature is saving screens AND being able to review them either on unit or externally. You can also look for a used siglent handheld or micsig ms200/300.

[live2fish88]

I don't mind toting the laptop around honestly. It won't be for professional use, my body doesn't let me professionally work on vehicles anymore, but I still do at my residence. I just want something affordable I can learn on and handle automotive stuff and when I grasp the concept better and can know what better I need, I can look into desktop units. I will look into what you've mentioned!

[maginnovision]

Well if you don't mind cable management and the occasional extra work(you sometimes have to set up, get out to check, then get back in to disconnect) then I think it could work for you. I work now just like I did professionally and that would be an absolute pain for me. The 2204 could work for you but it only comes with standard probes. You'll probably also want to pick up 10(or 20):1 attenuators for O2s, an inductive probe for ignition(inductive interconnect for COP) and a current probe if you don't have one already to cover all your bases.

[live2fish88]

Are there other USB oscilloscope you'd recommend? Owon? Hantek?

[maginnovision]

Pico has an actual automotive scope with... Mostly isolated channels but it costs significantly more and all of the accessories are high cost(not that you need to buy theirs). Hantek has one but I wouldn't trust their software to work since they basically fire and forget with their PC software. I'm not really one to ask about USB scopes though, I own 0 and rarely ever check them out.

[Johnny10]

You can investigate the Pico scopes.
Great thing is they have software specifically for automotive.
Plus they have waveform data that you can use as an aid to diagnosis.

You will need sensors that are available through PICO and you can build some of your own.

Current sensors, compression sensors, Vacuum sensors are extremely handy, as are Spark plug testers.

A two channel scope is workable for analyzing spark vs fuel injector, however I have found 4 channels is best.

Just re-read your original post... you will need 200 just for sensors. 10X probes are not much use for automotive.

[Fungus]

If you search for "multimeter oscilloscope" on aliexpress there's quite a few things like this:



Can I tell you detials of all the models? Pros and cons? Which is "best"? No, but they're out there.

[live2fish88]

If you search for "multimeter oscilloscope" on aliexpress there's quite a few things like this:

(Attachment Link)

Can I tell you detials of all the models? Pros and cons? Which is "best"? No, but they're out there.

Eh. I'm looking for stand alone. The thing is, I want to work with my amp first. After that I plan to scope some working things on my car to get a feel and practice. I also have old sensors I can mess with too that are bad. I'm trying to keep within a budget (but with every hobby or interest I end up selling my soul) so that I have some control over the product I get. I will eventually go all out I'm sure, but I'd like a quality starter scope that won't mess up on me but also can grow a bit with me. I was originally looking at the hantek 1008c. Looked pretty feature rich. Then I saw pico makes one, whom I'm familiar with. The 2204/2205 are in my range. I can stretch my budget a little if it's worth it, but not double. I'd like to buy used but I don't know how far out these things can go with calibration and adhesion, I wouldn't know what to look for. So if the pico 2205 is worth it over the 2204 or another scope in the 250 range, I'm all for it.

[Johnny10]

Another way to go is the Analog Discovery.
I subscribe to a YouTube channel about tube amps where the poster, with lots of experience, tries out the Analog Discovery;  El Paso Tube Amps.

Sounds as though you are starting about where I did 5 years ago.
I wanted to test transistor and tube amplifiers and also learn about the functioning of automotive engines.

My first scope was a Rigol 1052Z that was small enough and bright enough to use outdoors and under the hood. Very important !
I paid 350 used on eBay and after a few years use, I sold it for 320.

What is a helpful feature of Digital scopes is waveform storage and the ability to scroll through an extended time frame.
50MHz is plenty of bandwidth for amplifiers and auto engines.

[Gyro]

Are there other USB oscilloscope you'd recommend? Owon? Hantek?

Certainly the Owon over the Hantek, no contest (~ $100 for the galvanically isolated one), better H/W and performance, decent triggering. That's rather under your budget though (which is important at this level) - you're in that 'awkward' range between low cost USB and Desktops, with a bunch of so-so handhelds.

Pico might well be the way to go for you, they certainly have it quality-wise. They do decent oversampling which effectively gets you a couple of extra bits of vertical resolution, which might be useful for audio. Go and download their S/W, I'm pretty sure it will have an evaluation mode. Get the feel of their UI, it's certainly comprehensive but you'll probably either love it or hate it - it's quite 'windows app' in feel. Their support is first rate too.

If you really want to go lower cost with the Owon, it is still decent quality but lacks things like serial decode and a lot of of the fancy Pico measurements (it has the basic set). You can download the S/W too - no demo mode, so you won't get traces, but you can roughly get a feel for the UI. It doesn't need much of a laptop either.

I really have no experience of the Handhelds in that price range, you need to do your homework very closely on those.

[live2fish88]

I bought the owon vds3102 for $255 brand new. Hopefully it gives me something good to learn on for a bit.

[frogg]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-2c422c722d422d72/

Hantek 2000 series all the way.

I have no idea why you bought a USB scope for automotive. That seems like a bad idea.

[live2fish88]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-2c422c722d422d72/

Hantek 2000 series all the way.

I have no idea why you bought a USB scope for automotive. That seems like a bad idea.

Why a bad idea?

[Gyro]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-2c422c722d422d72/

Hantek 2000 series all the way.

I have no idea why you bought a USB scope for automotive. That seems like a bad idea.

Reading that thread, I just see a succession of problems and queries.