Hand held scope, opinions again please

[Mark_O]

I find conflicting information on whether the Rigol DS2000 series does CANBUS or not. Anyone?

Yes, CAN bus decode is definitely an option on the DS2000 series.  It has even been demonstrated to work!

[Lightages]

I have been revisiting the idea of getting a Wens 540 debug meter but I am unsure about the logic analyzer and its real usefulness in real life. The specs claim 50MSPS but only 10MHz bandwidth. So in real world use is this bandwidth really enough? Does anyone have an opinion of the limitations of the bandwidth in relation to the higher speed busses I want to inspect? The scope function is only 10MHz but has a 50MSPS which could cause some real issues with aliasing. Because the Wens 540 does not have a real scope input is reliably flat across the bandwidth? Nobody knows yet.

The price is $700 USD approximately and I wonder if this is good value. The other concern for me is the oscilloscope has only CATIII 300V direct input but I would like to use this on solar systems where I might see 600V at up to 10A.

I am really not sure that this debug meter is a good buy in comparison to other options or not. This is probably the first time in a long time in my history where I am not sure.

I am still considering a DS2074Z as I want Canbus which the DS1054Z does not have, or a DS1054Z plus a logic analyzer with Canbus for the same price as the DS2074Z, or just the Wens 540 as an all in one device.

To recap, my lowered expectations are that I want a portable solution for a 20MHzish oscilloscope, SPI, Canbus, I2C, RS232, RS485, 600V capability, but I still want to stay under $800 total. Is the Wens 540 the closest I can get, or is a multi-device solution a better idea?

Any more opinions?

[Mark_O]

I have been revisiting the idea of getting a Wens 540 debug meter but I am unsure about the logic analyzer and its real usefulness in real life. The specs claim 50MSPS but only 10MHz bandwidth. So in real world use is this bandwidth really enough? Does anyone have an opinion of the limitations of the bandwidth in relation to the higher speed busses I want to inspect?

First off, that 50 MSa/s rate isn't terrible for comms protocols.  That would give you decent edge accuracy out to about 10 MHz.  But that BW means any digital channels above 2 Mbit/sec will be impaired, and above 3.3 MHz significantly so (not even the 3rd harmonic preserved).  If seeing 5 Mbit comms signals as sine waves is OK, then fine.

I will be working on solar power generation and distribution, controls and electronics for stepper motors, servos, automobile controls and electronics, CCD cameras and associated electronics for astronomy, video signals such as old NTSC base and up to HDMI, and protocol analysis for micro controllers and their various forms of communication busses, USB1,2,3, etc. I think 2 channels are enough but maybe I need 4. I will be working on up to 1000VDC and down as low as ADC input values in the mV range. I would like to analyze things like CANBUS, SPI, RS323, RS485, and many other protocols.

Well, the Wens will be of no use for HDMI.  Or USB2 or USB3.  CANbus will probably be fine (1 Mbit/s max there), but SPI may well not be.  SPI these days is often 10, 15, or 25 Mbit/s (or more), and the Wens won't work there either.  But that may not be the primary impediment, since there aren't enough channels to see more than one side of a SPI comms channel, and even then, only if there's no other device sharing the SPI bus (single Master, single Slave).  That's because there isn't even a line available to conditionalize on the Select line.  So you won't be able to separate out the merged bus traffic.  This is even true on the $800 Rigol DS2000.  The DS1054Z solves that particular problem, at half the price, and loses CAN decode.

The scope function is only 10MHz but has a 50MSPS which could cause some real issues with aliasing. Because the Wens 540 does not have a real scope input is reliably flat across the bandwidth? Nobody knows yet.

You went from "I probably will not need more that 100MHz bandwidth unless other see a flaw in my assumption. Maybe I could live with 60MHz", to "Can I get by with 10 MHz"?  You really wish you could get by with the Wens, but you already know you can't. 

The price is $700 USD approximately and I wonder if this is good value.

It's not so much whether it's a good value or not.  It's not terrible for a combined functionality, portable instrument.  The real question is if it will meet your needs, and IMO, your needs exceed its capabilities.

The other concern for me is the oscilloscope has only CATIII 300V direct input but I would like to use this on solar systems where I might see 600V at up to 10A.

The 600V should not be a problem with 10x probes.

I am really not sure that this debug meter is a good buy in comparison to other options or not. This is probably the first time in a long time in my history where I am not sure.

I suspect you may be sure, but just don't like the reality of the situation.  You have requirements that exceed the capabilities of the Wens, but still wish it would work for you.  Because it would be an "easier" solution.  I know the feeling.

I am still considering a DS2074Z as I want Canbus which the DS1054Z does not have, or a DS1054Z plus a logic analyzer with Canbus for the same price as the DS2074Z, or just the Wens 540 as an all in one device.

I think you meant DS2072A, because there is no 2074 or DS2000Z-anything.

To recap, my lowered expectations are that I want a portable solution for a 20MHzish oscilloscope, SPI, Canbus, I2C, RS232, RS485, 600V capability, but I still want to stay under $800 total. Is the Wens 540 the closest I can get, or is a multi-device solution a better idea?

The only way you're going to stay within that price bracket, and get close to the functionality you require, is with a DS2072A (and a long power cord, or inverter and battery backpack), or a stack of separates.  Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Mark_O]

Lightages wrote:

"I am still considering a DS2074Z as I want Canbus which the DS1054Z does not have, or a DS1054Z plus a logic analyzer with Canbus for the same price as the DS2074Z, or just the Wens 540 as an all in one device."

You had mentioned doing work on Solar systems.  How is your combination hammer/wrench/screwdriver working out for you?    Luckily one wrench fits all bolt sizes too. 

Sadly (returning to reality), there doesn't yet exist an instrument that does everything, has great performance specs, AND is really cheap.  Perhaps really not that surprising, when you think about it.


How often will you need to be probing more than one channel?  For those situations, a Picoscope 2105 (25 MHz BW, 100 MSPS) may fit the bill.  It's extremely portable, and with your laptop provides scope, meter, spectrum analyzer, protocol decoder, and data logger capabilities.  For <$300.  More protocol decoders than the Rigols, and expanding.

You can do some research here:  http://www.picotech.com/handheld-oscilloscope.html   Saelig has them for about 10% off MSRP.

Well, rats.  I see there's no 10x probe mode, so it's limited to +/-50V.  Of course, you're not going to be looking at digital logic, or comms decoding, etc. at 600V, so a more conventional handheld may fit the bill for that part of your work. 


A Hantek DSO1060 at $365 will handle 10A, and 600VAC (800VDC).  That's 2 channels, 60 MHz BW, and 250 MSPS.  Has meter functions along with scope, but no protocols.



The Owon HDS1021M is even cheaper, at $260, with current ranges up to 20A, and 400V (AC + DC).  That one is 2 channels at 20 MHz BW, and 100 MSPS.  Again, no protocols, but nothing else does either.



These units are both battery operated, and work fine in the field.  My Hantek DSO8060 has held up well over the years.  They're certainly not bench-grade instruments, but they don't have to be.  The screen is sharp and bright, but very glossy, which can be an issue with the sun overhead and trying to angle the handheld device.  I haven't used the Owon's.

It you really need the portability for your work, a Hantek handheld, plus a Picoprobe and your laptop, may fit the bill for ~$660.  But that won't work for SPI, which requires a minimum of 2 channels.  So drop the Pico and add a USBeeSX or Saleae (I prefer the SX), and get 8-channels of logic analysis, and lots of protocol decoders, with SPI up to ~8 Mbit/s or so, for under $200.  Total combo <$550.  The Hantek will run 6-7 hours on a charge, which since it shuts down automatically, mean you'll get all-day use in most scenarios.  The decoders will run as long as your laptop does, and you won't have to drag the laptop into a situation where you're just reading voltage and current, or scoping out levels or switching signals.

Hope this gives you some fresh ideas.

[Lightages]

Thank you for the thoughtful and lengthy response. yes I meant DS2072A, just a mixup on all the model numbers.

I like your last suggestion to get the Hantek and separate PC based logic analyzer. It is what I thought I would probably need to do. I just needed a reality check to get me off of analysis paralysis.

Edit: I forgot one thing about the Hantek. I have seen some information online that the firmware is buggy and might not actually function as advertised. I was particularly interest in the DSO1062S which has isolated inputs. I will look at other alternatives.

[hgjdwx]

Quote from: Lightages on October 27, 2014, 08:28:24 AM

Thanks for pointing Micsig out. I had thought of them but guessed they would be out of my price range. Having a quick look, I was right.

I recommend GWinstek GDS-207


* 200/100/70MHz Bandwidth Selections, Two Input Channels* 1GSa/s Maximum Sample Rate* Maximum 5M Memory Depth Per Channel* 7” 800 x 480 Full Touch Panel Capacitive LCD Multi-Point Control, Landscape and Portrait Display* Built-In 50,000 Counts DMM* 30,000 Consecutive Waveform Records Logging Function, Replay Measurement Results Any Time* Temperature Measurement and Logging Function* Built-In Engineering Calculator, SMD Resistance Coding, Color Coding Info, and Attenuator Calculation Application Software* Optional Differential Probe to Achieve Isolation Effect

[Mark_O]

Edit: I forgot one thing about the Hantek. I have seen some information online that the firmware is buggy and might not actually function as advertised. I was particularly interest in the DSO1062S which has isolated inputs. I will look at other alternatives.

I can only speak about the DSO8060/1060, which is what I have.  The first one I got had numerous problems.  Initially I thought they were firmware issues, but they turned out to be a hardware lemon.

I got it replaced with another unit, and other than an occasional small glitch, that one has been fine for about 4 years.  Back then, they were going for almost $700.

Navigating around with buttons instead of knobs was kind of a PITA, at least at first.  But that comes withe the territory on battery portables.  I can't say the knobless Tek THS720A portable I had on loan was any more usable (monochrome, and battery life was MUCH worse).

[hgjdwx]

	Model	GDS-307	GDS-310	GDS-320	GDS-207	GDS-210	GDS-220
							VERTICAL
	Channels						2 (BNC-Shield)
	Input Impedance						1M?±2%, 16.5pf approx.
	Maximum Input						CAT II 300VRMS
	Input Coupling						AC, DC, GND
	Bandwidth	DC~70MHz (-3dB)	DC~100MHz (-3dB)	DC~200MHz (-3dB)	DC~70MHz (-3dB)	DC~100MHz (-3dB)	DC~200MHz (-3dB)
	Rise time	<5ns	<3.5ns	<1.75ns	<5ns	<3.5ns	<1.75ns
	Sensitivity						2mV~10V (1-2-5 increments)
	Accuracy						±(3% x Readout + 0.1 div + 1mV)
	Bandwidth Limit						20MHz(-3dB)
	Polarity						Normal, Invert
	Offset Position Range						2mV~50mV : ±0.4V  100mV~500mV : ±4V  1V~5V : ±40V  10V : ±300V
							SIGNAL ACQUISITION
	Realtime sample rate						1GSa/s
	Memory depth			5M points per ch			1M points per ch
	Acquisition mode						Average: 2~256 waveforms  Peak detect: 10ns  sin(x)/x or ET
	Replay wfms.						30,000 wfms.
							TRIGGER
	Source						Ch1 or Ch2
	Trigger mode						Auto, Normal, Single, Force
	Trigger type						Edge, Pulse Width, Video, Alternate
	Trigger Holdoff						10ns ~ 10s
	Coupling						AC, DC, LFR, HFR, NR
	Sensitivity						DC~25MHz: approx. 0.5div or 5mV  25MHz~ 70/100/200MHz: approx. 1.5div or 15mV
							HORIZONTAL
	Range						5ns~100s/Div (1-2-5 increments)
	Roll						100ms ~ 100s
	Pre-trigger						10 div max.
	Post_trigger						1,000 div max(depend on time base)
	Accuracy						±20ppm over any > 1ms time interval
							XY MODE
[font=??]?[/font]	Phase Shift						±3° at 100KHz
							CURSOR AND MEASUREMENT
	Cursors						Voltage difference between cursors([font=??]?[/font]V), Time difference between cursors([font=??]?[/font]T), frequency measure(1/[font=??]?[/font]T)
	Auto-measurement						36 sets.
	Auto-counter						6 digits. Range: 2Hz to rated bandwidth
	Autoset						Available
	TEMPERATURE MEASUREMENT			Available			Non-Available
							MISCELLANEOUS
	Multi-Language Menu						Available
	On-line Help						Available
	Time and Clock						Available
							BATTERY
	Battery power						Li-polymer 6100mA/hr, 7.4V (Built-in)
	Charge time						2.0 hour (75%)
	Operation time						4.1 hour, depending on operating condition.
							PROBE COMPENSATION
							2V, 1KHz, 50% Duty cycle
							INTERFACE
	USB						USB Device (Isolation)
	Internal Flash Disk						120MB
							DISPLAY
	Type						7 inch
	Display resolution						480 x 800 pixels
	Display direction						Landscape & Portrait
	Backlight control						Manual adjustable, ECO mode
	Touch panel						Capacitive
							POWER ADAPTOR
	Line Voltage						AC 100V~240V, 48~63Hz, Power Consumption 40W
							DC Output: 12V/3A, Double Shield
							OPTION
	Differential Probe						Dual-channel, 40MHz, CAT II 600V
							DIMENSIONS & WEIGHT
							1.5Kg,  HxWxD(mm)  240mm x 136mm x60 mm
							DMM

[Mark_O]

I recommend GWinstek GDS-207

Thanks.  That is an interesting looking unit.  Nice to see them doing things with touchscreens.

Unfortunately, the GDS-207 is priced at $1,200, which is beyond the $800 limit that Lightages specified.  Also, it has NO protocol support.  So that's really not a contender.  Lastly, the battery life is considerably shorter ("up to 4.1 hrs") than the $360 Hantek.  There may be other reasons to recommend it, but it fails on those counts.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The Owon HDS1021M is even cheaper, at $260, with current ranges up to 20A, and 400V (AC + DC).  That one is 2 channels at 20 MHz BW, and 100 MSPS.  Again, no protocols, but nothing else does either.

Don't even think about the older Owon units (without the -N) suffix - the appalling UI will drive you nuts
And ignore the DMM - it's a joke. I'd be surprised if it could pass 20A for any time without melting, and no way I'd trust it with anything resembling high voltage.

[Lightages]

Thanks again for the suggestions. Yes that GDS-207 is over my budget and also does nothing more than the Hantek models mentioned as far as I can see.

Living in Chile is a risk to buy anything that might have a QC problem as it takes sometimes months for thing to arrive and then can take months to deal with if a warranty issue arises. That makes me kind of shy with the Hanteks because I have more bad written about them than good.

Mike:
Your review of your first Owon put me off Owon for good I think.

So it looks like a Rigol DS1054Z plus a Picoscope or something similar to get most of what I want. It is too bad that there is nothing that does what I want yet. It seems like it would not be a particularly difficult thing to build now.

[mzzj]

Not even half of what 1.st poster wanted but I have been quite happy with OWON SDS7102 equipped with the battery pack
http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ParentID=57&SortID=66&ProID=172#sthash.ACB3YVb5.dpbs

Surely not the best for handheld-use but usually I can place my scope to sit somewhere.

[Rubi Han]

I will be working on solar power generation and distribution, controls and electronics for stepper motors, servos, automobile controls and electronics, CCD cameras and associated electronics for astronomy, video signals such as old NTSC base and up to HDMI, and protocol analysis for micro controllers and their various forms of communication busses, USB1,2,3, etc. I think 2 channels are enough but maybe I need 4. I will be working on up to 1000VDC and down as low as ADC input values in the mV range. I would like to analyze things like CANBUS, SPI, RS323, RS485, and many other protocols. I probably will not need more that 100MHz bandwidth unless other see a flaw in my assumption. Maybe I could live with 60MHz.

So, what says the herd? Should I just get a DS2072A and carry around a portable AC source to power it? Would this be the best bang for the buck for what I want to do? Should I look at a real hand held scope? Is it possible with a hand held to get most of the things I want without going over $800 for example? Perhaps a USB scope and a notebook?

Hello

If you need serial bus trigger but do not need decoding, then our handheld oscilloscope model MS207T meet your request, price is also meet your budget. Below is the basic specs:
- Bandwidth: 70MHz
- Channel: 2
- Sample rate: 1 GSa/s
- Memory depth? 240Kpts
- Refresh rate: 50,000wfms/s(Optional)
- Trigger: edge, pulse, logic, serial bus(UART,LIN,CAN,SPI,I2C)
- Battery: 6000mAh
- Screen: 5.7'' touchable display, resolution 640*480

Rubi
http://www.micsig.com/en/product_detail.asp?id=20

[AlessandroAU]

I am beginning to think that I might have to forget the safety of a fully isolated hand held and go with the DS2072A and carry it around to where I need it. I am still investigating online, but the decoding part makes it a long shot by the looks of it.

Don't some of the Siglent/etc have wall wart/DC power input?  Home brew a DC/DC converter/regulator, might be a cheaper option for ya.

I don't know what voltage rails the scope needs internally, but it shouldn't be too hard to combine one of these http://www.mini-itx.com/store/psu with a battery to supply all the needed rail voltages

[Lightages]

If you need serial bus trigger but do not need decoding, then our handheld oscilloscope model MS207T meet your request, price is also meet your budget. Below is the basic specs:
- Bandwidth: 70MHz
- Channel: 2
- Sample rate: 1 GSa/s
- Memory depth? 240Kpts
- Refresh rate: 50,000wfms/s(Optional)
- Trigger: edge, pulse, logic, serial bus(UART,LIN,CAN,SPI,I2C)
- Battery: 6000mAh
- Screen: 5.7'' touchable display, resolution 640*480

Rubi
http://www.micsig.com/en/product_detail.asp?id=20

Rubi

I almost sure I would need the decoding function, not just triggering. You don't mention a price. Perhaps you would like to send me one for a review? I know that many members here have no experience with Micsig and would like to get an unbiased review of your products.

[Lightages]

Well after some consideration and waiting for Micsig to respond, I have decided to forgo the handheld scope and get a DS1054Z and a Picoscope http://www.picotech.com/handheld-oscilloscope.html as suggested my Mark_O. I already have a couple of Velleman handheld very low bandwidth scopes for doing some preliminary checks. I think this combination will give me many more options and capabilities.

Too bad there isn't a really good AIO handheld yet for a reasonable price.

[tautech]

Marmad's link to this thread from https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg590143/?topicseen#msg590143 reminded me about it as I was in China visiting Siglent until Lightages last post.
A good mate has the Hantek 200 MHz HH that has died without warning and left him in a spot. 
Unfortunatly he has been too busy to dedicate the time to repair it and has to lug around his CRO in the meanwhile.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-dso1200-handheld-dead/msg452374/#msg452374

[TrioTest]

Saw a note about not buying from a WENS distributor because the margin is too high.  We are moving offices in Sydney and are having a big stock sale coming up. Our margins are reduced because we'd rather sell stock before our move in late September.

The WENS 540 is now $545 AUD +gst if you are in Australia. In USD it's about $395 USD at an FX of AUD/USD= 0.725

That's a good price we believe. We have 7 of them at this price. 
It's here for on line shoppers.
http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/handheld/3125-wens-540-10mhz-automotive-oscilloscope-and-debug-meter.html

If you are outside Australia or NZ we can supply but email us on  sales@triotest.com.au to inquire if we ship to your destination.

We are clearing out other items too and if you register on our site for the news letter we'll be sending out a list.
Some of the clearance items are here.

http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/303-clearance-items

ex-demo is here:

http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/371-bargains-ex-demo