Author Topic: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?  (Read 15013 times)

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Offline ironcurtainTopic starter

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Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« on: March 19, 2018, 06:39:42 pm »
Hey,

I'm finally going to buy a new scope... I settled on 4 channels, more than 100MHz bandwidth (I will need to do some RF and digital work with it so 200 would be neat, unless someone wiser can illustrate to me how I could workaround bandwidth limitations...)  and decoding functions as I do reverse engineering somewhat regularly, and they help a bunch.
I would like to save some money, and I could not find a straight to the point post with a short summary of oscilloscopes presently 'hackable', either through firmware modification or key generation methods.

I'm looking into these series:

  • SDS1000X by Siglent
  • DS1054Z by Rigol (only hackable to 100 it seems)

The Siglent SDS1204X-E seems like my best option, unless someone can prove otherwise. I'm still not sure whether I will end up needing a built in logic analyzer...
"If you are going to fail, at least do so spectacularly."

Kurtz: [intercepted radio message] I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving. -- Apocalypse Now (1979)
 

Offline LoveToRepair

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 06:44:27 pm »
I just Got the Rigol DS1054Z completely unlocked.  I love it.  I haven't been able to test it past 200Mhz yet But it went up to 200Mhz just fine
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 06:55:46 pm »
A scope is usually the wrong tool for RF work at that kind of frequency, due to limited voltage input ranges, ADC non-linearity, ADC resolution, and non-50ohm input impedance.

So, work out what input powers (and therefore voltages) you will be measuring, and what measurements you want to make. Then try to match that with scope specifications.

Consider using a decent RF spectrum analyser, i.e. one that is a low-noise high-linearity superheterodyne radio.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 07:36:31 pm »
The SDS1204X-E probably is the best thing going at the entry level but the $760 price tag will keep people in the Rigol DS1054Z for a few more years.  There is also the 'newness' bit to get past.  It is important to know what issues have yet to be resolved by firmware revisions.  It took a couple of years for the DS1054Z firmware to get to a point where most issues are fixed.

200 MHz seems like a lot for sine waves.  It isn't all that much when you think about the 5th harmonic of a 50 MHz square wave.  The sum of the first, 3rd and 5th don't really look all that good.

I have the DS1054Z but I am seriously thinking about the SDS1204X-E.  I'm not in a hurry so I'll wait on firmware revisions.  Maybe in a couple of years...

Don't overlook 2 scopes.  For your high bandwidth stuff, you probably don't need the features of a DSO.  I bought a Tektronix 485 350 MHz analog scope about a dozen years ago for around $200.  It was only a year or so back that I bought the Rigol and I bought it for channels and decoding, not bandwidth.

The features of a DSO are compelling - except for bandwidth versus dollars.
 

Offline ironcurtainTopic starter

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 07:47:10 pm »
A scope is usually the wrong tool for RF work at that kind of frequency, due to limited voltage input ranges, ADC non-linearity, ADC resolution, and non-50ohm input impedance.

So, work out what input powers (and therefore voltages) you will be measuring, and what measurements you want to make. Then try to match that with scope specifications.

Consider using a decent RF spectrum analyser, i.e. one that is a low-noise high-linearity superheterodyne radio.

I have a HP 8924c test set with a GPIB interface and such, for all my RF needs. But I do like the ability to look at FFT/RF related tasks for lower frequencies. I just can't find a newer SA for an acceptable sum of money... the European market sucks for all things second hand in this field.
"If you are going to fail, at least do so spectacularly."

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Online tggzzz

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 08:05:09 pm »
A scope is usually the wrong tool for RF work at that kind of frequency, due to limited voltage input ranges, ADC non-linearity, ADC resolution, and non-50ohm input impedance.

So, work out what input powers (and therefore voltages) you will be measuring, and what measurements you want to make. Then try to match that with scope specifications.

Consider using a decent RF spectrum analyser, i.e. one that is a low-noise high-linearity superheterodyne radio.

I have a HP 8924c test set with a GPIB interface and such, for all my RF needs. But I do like the ability to look at FFT/RF related tasks for lower frequencies. I just can't find a newer SA for an acceptable sum of money... the European market sucks for all things second hand in this field.

That's good, but I'm not sure it changes the cautions about using scopes.

Apart from that, patience may allow you to find a conventional spectrum analyser; my Tek492 cost £250 :)
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 08:11:35 pm »
Don't overlook 2 scopes.
Agreed but you don't need to buy a 40 year old boat anchor. You can buy a decent 500MHz+ DSO for a reasonable amount of money. Personally I also have multiple DSOs. One for general purpose use and one for specific HF use.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline joseph nicholas

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 08:28:39 pm »
Don't overlook 2 scopes.
Agreed but you don't need to buy a 40 year old boat anchor. You can buy a decent 500MHz+ DSO for a reasonable amount of money. Personally I also have multiple DSOs. One for general purpose use and one for specific HF use.

Yes, yes I agree.  The hype around the usefulness and value of old scopes are generated by peoples desire to sell you something that is a nightmare to repair and maintain.  Don't forget that even if it is good shape and working its full of aging capacitors and unobtainable parts.  The old tek scope are especially prone to this. The romantic and nostalgia reality warp effect. 
 

Offline ironcurtainTopic starter

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2018, 03:25:45 am »
I just Got the Rigol DS1054Z completely unlocked.  I love it.  I haven't been able to test it past 200Mhz yet But it went up to 200Mhz just fine

How does it compare to the Siglent in that state? How's the sampling? Did you follow any specific 'recipe' posted somewhere you can link to?
It's literally 400 EUR less... so my guess is, are the insides the same as the 200MHz model??
"If you are going to fail, at least do so spectacularly."

Kurtz: [intercepted radio message] I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving. -- Apocalypse Now (1979)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 04:30:01 am »
I just Got the Rigol DS1054Z completely unlocked.  I love it.  I haven't been able to test it past 200Mhz yet But it went up to 200Mhz just fine

How does it compare to the Siglent in that state? How's the sampling?
Half the Sa/s of SDS1004X-E models with 4 channels active.
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Online Fungus

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 05:23:19 am »
I just Got the Rigol DS1054Z completely unlocked.  I love it.  I haven't been able to test it past 200Mhz yet But it went up to 200Mhz just fine

They can show signals up to 300+ MHz but they'll be attenuated.

The -3dB point is usually around 130Mhz.

 

Offline ironcurtainTopic starter

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 07:30:55 am »
Almost seems like it is worth saving the extra $ and just buy the Rigol and "upgrade" it to 100MHz, unless the higher end models can also be hacked... Then the Siglent does not seem like a better option anymore. Am I missing something there? It seems the only difference really would be the sampling at 1G when using two channels in two separate ADCs... (c1 and c2 together would also downsample to 500M I read, but c1 and c3 would sample each at 1G).
"If you are going to fail, at least do so spectacularly."

Kurtz: [intercepted radio message] I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving. -- Apocalypse Now (1979)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2018, 08:03:03 am »
Almost seems like it is worth saving the extra $ and just buy the Rigol and "upgrade" it to 100MHz, unless the higher end models can also be hacked... Then the Siglent does not seem like a better option anymore. Am I missing something there? It seems the only difference really would be the sampling at 1G when using two channels in two separate ADCs... (c1 and c2 together would also downsample to 500M I read, but c1 and c3 would sample each at 1G).
Yes, combinations of ch 1+3 or 2+4 offer 1Gsa/s for each channel.

Any damn DSO will display waveforms waaaaay past their rated -3dB BW.
Defpom demonstrated the 2ch X-E to 500 MHz for shits and giggle here:
https://youtu.be/64kxGDOg7es?t=1646

WRT the additional functionality SDS1004X-E models offer you're really not looking very hard at the datasheets and manuals.  :-//
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 08:42:39 am »
also if you care about decoding and history mode, siglent is definetly better in that aspect :)
decoding from screen data is just useless (try to decode more than 6 UART packets with the rigol) because if you move the signal around, the result changes. if you zoom out or in, the result changes (the data is resampled to fit on the screen)
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2018, 12:04:07 pm »
Almost seems like it is worth saving the extra $ and just buy the Rigol and "upgrade" it to 100MHz, unless the higher end models can also be hacked... Then the Siglent does not seem like a better option anymore. Am I missing something there?

Yes, you are missing LOT of.  How you buy car. Are nearly same if both have 4 wheels and both have 180km/h max speed.

If you compare Rigl DS1000Z and Siglent SDS1004X-E fast you can see that they are really from different planet. Of course there are also similar things, 7" 480x800 display and 4 analog input channels. Both have shared vertical adjustments. Both have maximum samplerrate 1GSa/s.

If do not argument normal mode wfm/s speed maximum (what is also lot of higher in Siglent)

Siglent construction is 2x  1ADC1MEM/2 channel  and Rigol 1ADC1MEM/4 channel
Siglent 2 channel both 1GSa/s  Rigol 1 channel 1GSa/s  and  2 channel 500MSa/s
Siglent >2 channels simultaneously 500MSa/s Just barely enough for 200MHz  and Rigol 250MSa/s   Just barely enough for 100MHz. Even if analog front end can pass over this to ADC just for aliasing.

If look signals what are not sine, example square, some times linear interpolation is better (exept if user only admire "nice looking image". Least linear interpolation is tool for experienced users for detect what is going on when he can switch between linear, Sinc and dots. In Siglent all is full freedom for user and all is done post processing. And importatntly, Siglent Sinc do not flush real data to toilet, it draw Sinc iterpolation via true ADC data points. And you can always select if it is used or not, also you can change mode afterwards. And dots mode it do not generate fake dots. Also it do not decimate. All real ADC data is mapped for display.
But Rigol works here like some kind of entertainment toy. It is unbelievable how they have used this fake Sinc years, they start it with old DS1000E and never repaired it. Still it also looks like there is lot of users who do not even understand this severity IF we talk about real tools and not toys.

Many times one good tool for hunting anomalies in signal is mask test. Yes, Rigol have mask test - yes. But there is real trap for users. It can lead to severe false result if exaple do statistics about anomalies occurence. Why, because its speed depends about test result and it depends about it really lot. If mask test result is fail it is extremely slow. Some tests in second and if result is pass, then speed is example up to max wfm/s speed.
In Siglent, independent of result, (test is hardware based) test result do not affect speed at all. Always maximum speed.

Yes I know mask test is not so popular specially in user segment "hobbyist". Perhaps because just this test have been so crap in low price oscilloscopes, mostly just software based so that sales man can list this feature to AD.
Also Siglent mask test is simply and feture poor version if compare to higher grade scopes. But least it is fast and also statistics result is valid and do not include this "hidden" trap what leads to false data.

Siglent have real waveform history buffer up to over 50Mpoints, up to 80000 last acquisitions and with realative time stamps and it is not image frame recorder, it keep full raw ADC data. You can stop scope and look what just previously happe. You can do then measurements, even FFT for every single stored waveform, you can change linear or sinc interpolation or just dots. You can play with this history many ways.
Rigol do not have nothing like this.  And this is real tool after you learn how to work with it for get more power for your work.  Many peoples overlook this - just because they have never seen or used this kind of tool. Yes, this can also find in some R&S higher crade scopes (and of course also then more featured also - with high price)

Segmented memory acquisition. What Rigol really have?
Siglent have real fast sequence mode. Up to 80000 segments with relative time stamps and maximum speed over 400kwfm/s (beats also these cheapest Keysight models just thands down and many times in speed and thousend times with segments max count)

Instead of these Rigol have some kind of "frame recorder" like segmented memory acg.

Siglent have max 1M FFT.    What Rigol have? Yes, FFT is in feature list.

Siglent have full ADC sample resolution automatic measurements up to 14Mpts.  One tiny example below attached. What Rigol have, some kind of very small second buffer (or perhaps just display memory) for measurements,  well under 1000 data points. (it is well explained previously in this forum somewhere and it is really - really poor.

Siglent have best ever seen 3 channel SFRA in this scope class and example Keysight 1000X models SFRA is just like toy vs this Siglent version. (but it need external compatible signal generator)
But Rigol, nothing.

Siglent can also upgrade to full MSO with 4 analog and 16 digital channels.
Rigol, not possible.


Siglent have real full resoluition full bandwidth 500uV/div sensitivity. Rigol highest sensitivity  full resolution full bandwidth is 5mV/div  (1mV and 2mV/div are somehow magnified from 5mV/div.
(There is somewhere thread where I have tested it using my Rigol and also Sinc "bug" (what include also "mysterious" level error)  Perhaps it can name Rig(x)/x instead of Sin(x)/x  ) 

Then we can also talk about window zoom performance and trigger jitter and trigger accuracy, perhaps also how good is trigger position fine interpolation between true samples.

And simple small fact: Siglent horizontal scale 1ns/div - 100s/div.  Rigol 5ns/div - 50s/div

Then example some nice things. In Siglent you can select two kind of vertical offset, fixed V level, fixed position. And same for Horizontal, fixed delay time or fixed position.

For gated measurtements gate cursors, it do not reserve normal cursors for this.

Color gradiend display. Some times help fast observation with eyes.

User interface speed. Even with much more brute force needing features it is still like J-16 Red Eagle vs Cessna 150

There is couple more things what differentate tools and toys but I think even this is like red for bull and Rigol fans start and and also soldiers who have one mans war against Siglent.



And, Siglent is not at all perfect, it is not high grade manufacturer like Teledyne, Keysight, Tektronix or R&S. But what have been one year, two year, four years and more ago, Siglent have developed lot of, but still need develop more themselves and do better. (and why Keysight compare to Rigol but not to Siglent. Reason is natural, They compare all what they can show they looks like win - or if not win then they select some settings what makes competitor loose and looks like Keysight win. They have always done it, even in simple or higher level aplication notes and not only in sales advertisements)

Just for very small and simplest example (you can find lot of things from forum and of course all what Rigol do not have they all are not nessessary - of course.).
This is impossible with Rigol. Can not do nothing even close this. And this is not at all most important thing - better say that one not so important thing but dry reality.

But then you look price, performance and features - these relationship is pretty good.
If we look situation what was just after old SDS2000 (no X) was launched and how unmatrure it first was. Today with example SDS1004X-E situation is very different.  (as it is also today with SDS2000X series)

And yes, signal is 99.7ns wide (at 50% level)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:07:31 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline SWR

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 03:54:54 pm »
I like the Rigol and Siglent brands you mention. I have a Rigol scope and a Siglent spectrum analyzer, but here's another option that might fit your needs?

I'm pretty impressed with a GW Instek MDO-2204EX scope I got this weekend.
It's a 6-in-1 multi instrument I bought at Reichelt.de:

1 A 4ch 200MHz scope with individual channel controls
   8" 800x480 TFT with 12 soft keys for quick menu navigation
   40M sample memory
   120K waveforms/s
   High resolution 1M FFT with very fast update rate
   29K memory segments with a very useful search function
   Advanced math with user definable functions
   Downloadable apps:
      Go-nogo with HW output on the back for automated testing
      Digital volt & frequency meter with readout on screen capture
      Data logger up to 1000h with event counter
      Digital filter LP/BP/HP up to 500MHz
      Mask function to capture rare events
      Bode plot using the built in sweep generator
2 Serial bus decoder with UART, SPI, I²C, CAN, LIN
   The search function can use bin, hex or ASCII with wild-cards
3 Spectrum analyzer from DC to 500MHz
   Useful for audio and vibration (my Siglent SSA3021 only goes down to 9KHz)
   It's also much easier to operate (no switching between scope/FFT mode)
      Centre, span, start and stop frequency control
      Sample, min, max and average detection
      Linear, dBV or dBm display
      Windows: Rect.(single shot), Hanning/Hamming(periodic), Blackman(amplitude)
4 Dual 25MHz 200Ms 14bit Arbitrary Waveform Generator
   On board waveform editor and PC interface
   AM, FM, FSK and sweep modulation (independent or tracking)
5 Independent 5000 count digital multimeter
   Vdc, Vac, Idc, Iac
   Ohm, Beep, Diode
   Thermocouple °C/F type B,E,J,K,N,R,S or T
   Readout on screen capture
6 Dual 5V 1A power supply
   Individually adjustable or 3,3 and 5V presets
   Overload protection
It's also got a calibration output for self-calibration.

I haven't had much time to go through all the details yet, but I've been through all 6 instruments and all the things I've tried works as expected. It costs a bit more than the Rigol and Siglent you mention, but considering what you get I think the price is very fair. There's no need to hack it because everything is already unlocked from the factory. It's really easy to include AWG, DVM and DMM readings in your reports with the screen capture instead of taking pictures.

It's also a nice form factor if you're working with embedded software development. It will fit on a desk with room for a couple of decent size monitors and power a development board. You've got the AWG for exciting the inputs and a wide selection of measurement options. The only thing I miss is an electronic load to test the outputs, but all-in-all it's pretty complete for the work I'm doing. :)

Best regards
Soren
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 04:42:02 pm »
also if you care about decoding and history mode, siglent is definetly better in that aspect :)
decoding from screen data is just useless (try to decode more than 6 UART packets with the rigol) because if you move the signal around, the result changes. if you zoom out or in, the result changes (the data is resampled to fit on the screen)
Just a warning: not all Rigols are the same. The DS4000 series stores decodes the entire stored stream as shown by H.O. here. I can attest to this as well on my DS4014.

If the price is right (above $1k and more realistically around $1.5k), this family of scopes has a good bang for the buck - upgradeable to 500MHz and with several decoders (it can be done for free if you are into that). The architecture is a bit older, but what matters is the use you make of it.
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Offline mrinner

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 04:48:58 pm »
I'm also looking DS1054Z VS sds1204 4ch... but now starting thinking about rigol DS2072(hack) + external LA. 2ch yes, but faster...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 05:00:33 pm by mrinner »
 

Offline ironcurtainTopic starter

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 08:46:54 pm »
The GW Instek MDO-2204EX looks pretty beefy, is there a cheaper model without the DMM and PSU? How does it compare functionally to the Siglent? Is the SA really worth it? Seems like the Siglent is not that different, from the looks of it, it is not a real SA. The Siglent's FFT functionality can't achieve the same? I assume dynamic range is poor in both.
"If you are going to fail, at least do so spectacularly."

Kurtz: [intercepted radio message] I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving. -- Apocalypse Now (1979)
 

Offline mk_

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 09:10:01 pm »
Hey,

I'm finally going to buy a new scope... I settled on 4 channels, more than 100MHz bandwidth (I will need to do some RF and digital work with it so 200 would be neat, unless someone wiser can illustrate to me how I could workaround bandwidth limitations...)  and decoding functions as I do reverse engineering somewhat regularly, and they help a bunch.

Go for the Tektronix MDO3014. Buy it, enable all features (Bandwith up to 500MHz, Spectrum Analyser up to 3GHz, Function Generator, a lot of decoders, a Logic analyser... ) with the code you can finde here on eevblog

beside the ugliy UI it is a fine instrument.

good luck

Michael

 
 

Offline SWR

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 10:02:37 pm »
The GW Instek MDO-2204EX looks pretty beefy, is there a cheaper model without the DMM and PSU?
Yes, they have a whole range of cheaper scopes without the DMM & PSU, 2 or 4 channel with different bandwidth, but they all have the deep segmented memory with search function and apps including data logging.
Quote
How does it compare functionally to the Siglent?
The Siglent scope also have a high resolution 1M FFT so in this function the main advantage of the Instek is the high update rate. I believe they have achieved this by integrating the microcontroller and FPGA on the same Xilinx chip. It has a much higher transfer bandwidth between the two on chip than the Siglent design with the microcontroller and FPGA in separate chips.
Apart from the update rate the Siglent has equally high frequency resolution.
Quote
Is the SA really worth it? Seems like the Siglent is not that different, from the looks of it, it is not a real SA. The Siglent's FFT functionality can't achieve the same? I assume dynamic range is poor in both.
For me it is, but that really depends on what you want to use it for?
The dynamic range is a bit more than 80dB (which is poor compared to the 160dB of my Siglent SSA3021).
The advantage of the FFT based approach is that it covers DC to 500MHz (my SSA3021 covers 9K to 3,2GHz).
I'm planning to use the Instek for audio, sensor and vibration work. The Siglent SSA is for RF and EMC pre compliance work.

I did some measurements with the Instek on a 5KHz LVDT sensor design today that worked out really well. I could feed a 5KHz sine to the TX coil from the built in AWG and measure the A & B receive coils in both time and frequency domain. Here I could play around with different bandpass filters on the scope in real-time, to filter out switching noise from four solenoids that are placed close to the LVDT coil. Using the advanced math to measure the RMS value of the filtered A & B I could calculate the LVDT position as (A-B)/(A+B) in real time without writing any software. This way I could quickly evaluate which filters have to be implemented in software on the embedded micro.

It really depends on what you want do do, but the main advantage of the integrated SA is the interface ease-of-use.
Normally if you use the FFT function in the math menu the frequency resolution will depend on your sample rate, so I often find myself switching several times between time and frequency domain to get the right image on the Keysight scopes we have at work that doesn't have the SA type interface. On the Instek you can stay in the frequency domain adjusting center, span, start and stop frequencies interactively while looking at the image. It's just much quicker to work with.

My needs may be different than yours, and I can really recommend forming your own oppinion based on your own needs. If you're more in love with the Siglent scope then by all means go for it and have fun. :-+
You should never go down on equipment!
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 10:37:02 pm »
I just got the DS1054Z and I'm very happy with it.  A scope is not the ideal tool for looking at long streams of serial data; scopes are useful for checking the data integrity and waveform shape; usually when that's resolved and data is flowing, it make way more sense to change over to a logic analyzer such as the Salae Logic 8/16 (there are cheap clones that seem to work but I bought a real Salae Logic 8).

So my recommendation is buy the Rigol and look for a logic analyzer.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline ironcurtainTopic starter

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 11:19:49 pm »
I really appreciate your responses, it's always great to see someone putting in some effort and time. I will just list a few of the case scenarios I will likely be involved with, in my lab:

  • Analyze EMI suppression in power supply and amplifier circuits, mostly LF-UHF related projects.
  • Analyze RF components: filter response, attenuation, etc.
  • Troubleshoot radio equipment: figure out if oscillators are working OK, debug receiver stages, etc.
  • Reverse engineering: I2C/SPI/UART and other buses, memory dumping, rewriting, glitches/side channel attacks.
  • Debugging small circuits with the usual run of the mill PIC/AVR/MCU: arduino, STM32.
  • Assorted experiments, like firmware stuff for hard drives, computer equipment, FPGAs
  • Video signals: sync clocks, conversion....

I was initially looking for spending up to 1k EUR, since I have put quite some money into things recently... Considering this, what do you honestly think would suit me best? Siglent or splurge a little and pick the Tektronix? Any decent EU seller that offers discounts? (I'm between jobs now)
"If you are going to fail, at least do so spectacularly."

Kurtz: [intercepted radio message] I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving. -- Apocalypse Now (1979)
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 11:41:44 pm »
I just got the DS1054Z and I'm very happy with it.  A scope is not the ideal tool for looking at long streams of serial data; scopes are useful for checking the data integrity and waveform shape; usually when that's resolved and data is flowing,
I disagree with that. A good scope has the toolset to decode and deal with lots of messages. That way you can collect data and look (search) for errors. Using two instruments to cover that just makes things more complicated. On a logic analyser you can see something went wrong but you can't see the reason. Therefore a DS1054Z  and seperate logic analyser is very far from a good choice.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline llkiwi2006

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Re: Hackable oscilloscope with 4 channels and >100Mhz bandwidth?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 11:46:02 pm »
I just got the DS1054Z and I'm very happy with it.  A scope is not the ideal tool for looking at long streams of serial data; scopes are useful for checking the data integrity and waveform shape; usually when that's resolved and data is flowing,
I disagree with that. A good scope has the toolset to decode and deal with lots of messages. That way you can collect data and look (search) for errors. Using two instruments to cover that just makes things more complicated. On a logic analyser you can see something went wrong but you can't see the reason. Therefore a DS1054Z  and seperate logic analyser is very far from a good choice.

Of course the "easy" solution is just to get a better scope, maybe even a mixed signal one. But when you don't have the budget for that, a separate usb logic analyzer might just fill in the gap that your cheap scope can't cover (e.g. ds1054z really sucks at decoding).
 


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