Functional comparison of R&S RTB2000, Siglent SDS2000X and Keysight DSOX1000

[bdunham7]

I suggest you get a 10k pot out and find the 100x sense pin thresholds for your 2kX+ as it appears they don't match Tek but is that any surprise ?
Since forever there has been no hard and fast standard for sense pin resistances.

I tried it with two probes, one ~5k and one ~6.9k, so I've sort of bracketed the nominal 6k spec, if that's correct.  I assume any reasonable setup would allow for some variance.  So I'm sort of suspecting that the SDS2kX+ is an all-or-nothing 1x/10x only setup.  I'll try the potentiometer if I get a chance.  b/t/w, having faulty or poorly implemented probe sensing is worse than none at all as it appears you can't override it.  I'll have to come up with some insulating washers.

FYI this is how the same probe autosenses in 50 Ohm mode.

I don't think input impedance should matter to probe sensing?

[nctnico]

What is the pin to BNC outer resistance ? This 100x probe measures 6.2k and autosenses just fine.
Don't have a SDS2kX+ unboxed so checked on my SDS5kX demo.

I have a Tek P6156 with switchable 1x/10x/20x/100x. 

Seems entirely the wrong probe to use with a SDS2kX+.

https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/P6156
It is designed for use with wide band oscilloscope amplifiers with 50 Ω inputs

Not at all. The information on that page is simply wrong. The Tektronix P6156 is a general purpose Low-Z (passive) probe which is supported on many Tektronixs DSOs including the TDS500/600/700 series. I have a couple of these as well but it sucks to have the autosense pin isolated because non-Tektronix scopes interpret the resistance wrong.

[RBBVNL9]

Concerning having (button) LEDs on for all active channels (vs. selected channels): I realize from the comments this is a bit of a user preference aspect and also may depend on the devices you come from, respectively the other devices you use.

2N3055 makes an important point that we should not forget about people with visual impairment. They may indeed prefer to have button lights illuminating on selected channels only. I must note, however, that the RTB and DSOX both can show the text “Channel 3” written on the screen when channel 3 is edited, and both also show it with trace markers (left of the trace). The RTB furthermore shows it with a highlight at the bottom of the screen. So, there are multiple clues for the (colour) visually impaired onj these devices.

Not recognizing why Siglent have laid out the channel button indicators how they have seems like the user has recently migrated to a DSO after years of experience with only CRO's.

I don’t think that is a fair point, tautech: having lights on the front panel illuminated for all active channels does not seem to be uncommon for modern DSOs at all. Unless I am mistaken, this is the implementation on various models of Teledyne LeCroy (WavePro HD, WaveRunner 8000HD, HDO6000B, WaveSurfer 4000HD), Tektronix models (3 series, 4 series, 5 series), R&S (RTM3000, RTA4000, RTE1000, RTO2000 and RTP RTP), and Keysight (2000X, 3000X, 4000X), to name a few. Most of these examples have shared vertical controls.

Looking at various manufacturers, I even asked myself whether any brand other than Siglent on recent models made the choice to illuminate the buttons for selected channels only. But I am sure others can fill in the gap and show who did, and who did not.

In any case, it’s a matter of user preference; will change this in the document.

[2N3055]

Concerning having (button) LEDs on for all active channels (vs. selected channels): I realize from the comments this is a bit of a user preference aspect and also may depend on the devices you come from, respectively the other devices you use.

2N3055 makes an important point that we should not forget about people with visual impairment. They may indeed prefer to have button lights illuminating on selected channels only. I must note, however, that the RTB and DSOX both can show the text “Channel 3” written on the screen when channel 3 is edited, and both also show it with trace markers (left of the trace). The RTB furthermore shows it with a highlight at the bottom of the screen. So, there are multiple clues for the (colour) visually impaired onj these devices.

Not recognizing why Siglent have laid out the channel button indicators how they have seems like the user has recently migrated to a DSO after years of experience with only CRO's.

I don’t think that is a fair point, tautech: having lights on the front panel illuminated for all active channels does not seem to be uncommon for modern DSOs at all. Unless I am mistaken, this is the implementation on various models of Teledyne LeCroy (WavePro HD, WaveRunner 8000HD, HDO6000B, WaveSurfer 4000HD), Tektronix models (3 series, 4 series, 5 series), R&S (RTM3000, RTA4000, RTE1000, RTO2000 and RTP RTP), and Keysight (2000X, 3000X, 4000X), to name a few. Most of these examples have shared vertical controls.

Looking at various manufacturers, I even asked myself whether any brand other than Siglent on recent models made the choice to illuminate the buttons for selected channels only. But I am sure others can fill in the gap and show who did, and who did not.

In any case, it’s a matter of user preference; will change this in the document.

Some scopes might have it like this but it is wrong and is remnant of old, and makes sense only for scopes that have individual controls for each channel.
Like I said my MSOX3000T does that, BUT for MATH, FFT, Digital and REF uses same logic as Siglent because those functions share same two controls.

Lecroys absolutely work same as Siglent, i.e. buttons light up only for currently selected channel. Entry level LeCroys are made by Siglent and have to have similar U/I logic..
EDIT: it seems I'm wrong and that current LeCroy models do light up buttons for enabled channels. I disagree with that choice either.

Tek and R&S do this but I don't understand why. Highlights are not that obvious. My eyesight is not what it used to be and I can clearly see if that 2x2 cm square on the screen is there or not on Siglent. On R&S it difference ifs font background is a bit more highlighted. I have to look for that.

It is not something useful and it is not color disability friendly. Hard fail in my eyes.

[Martin72]

Hi,

Very interesting comparison, but...

The Rigol MSO5000 is hardly missed in there.

Yes, the question should I buy a SDS2k+ or RTB came several times up - But also should I buy a MSO5000 or SDS2k+.
And very rare or no times a DSOX1000 or RTB/SDS2K+/MSO50000.

[kcbrown]

At some point in time, I will try to improve the video (colour) but now I will first give priority to the videos themselves ;-)

The problem is that the lighting you're using is warm-ish, but the color temperature of the screen backlights is closer to daylight.  This means that you can't get both of them right at the same time.  If you set the white balance to match your lighting, then the screens will have a blueish tint to them.

The white balance you're currently using looks like a reasonably close match to the color temperature of the screen backlights, so the screens themselves look reasonably accurate.

For those parts of the video where the scopes are turned off, it may be reasonable to set the white balance to match your lights.  But for those parts where you intend to demonstrate something on the screens of the scopes, your white balance needs to roughly match the scope backlights (i.e., be reasonably close to daylight).

You're going to have to change the lighting itself if you want the color temperature of the environment to be a reasonable match to the color temperature of the screens.

[tautech]

Concerning the probe sensing… It’s an area where the SDS certainly has a plus over the RTB and DSOX (as I mention in the video).

In my video and document, I just relied on the User Manual of the SDS, and an old 10x Tek P6105A 10x probe I happened to have in the lab (and which is correctly identified as a 10x probe by the SDS).

I now tried a couple of resistor values. As far as I can see, the SDS interprets any resistance between 0Ω and 56kΩ as “10x”, and resistance between 82k to infinity as “1x”. So, it seems that there is no recognition for other attenuation values, as it is.

Correct, I now have an SDS2104X+ out and these have a 100x probe detection bug whereas SDS5000X detect 100x probes correctly.
Will report it with a high priority fix request.

[bdunham7]

Correct, I now have an SDS2104X+ out and these have a 100x probe detection bug whereas SDS5000X detect 100x probes correctly.
Will report it with a high priority fix request.

If they can't fix it because the hardware is simply 0/1, then they should provide an option to disable probe sensing altogether.  I could live with that, but having it override my input when I connect a 100X probe with a readout pin is pretty annoying.

[RBBVNL9]

bdunham7 wrote:

I can confirm that the Siglent is a bit of a power hog, 50-60W running and 4.2W when off.  A hard power off switch would be good.

Yes, that is also what I measure. Some 4 watt is quite a bit (and from this standby, the device does not boot any faster than with a cold start). The RTB consumes 0.5 watts on standby.

Bit off-topic, but I love the way the power-save mode is implemented in my new Jura coffee machine. It was advertised as consuming 0 watts. I was curious, measured it, and… it’s true. I suppose it really disconnects itself from AC altogether after a timeout, and that the button to turn it back on actually restores the AC circuit temporary, until a relay takes over (although other implementations are possible as well). Anyway, well done!

[normi]

The problem I am seeing here is that there are numerous persons commenting on the Siglent but the other scopes are not being mentioned. So if you have missed details on the Siglent then how can one be sure that details on the other scopes are not being mentioned. So I am afraid your video may be skewed in one direction and not give a fair comparison.

[pope]

It would be great if there were timestamps on the video. It shouldn't be too complicated and definitely very handy in case someone would like to go back and forth on the whole video series. 

[RBBVNL9]

The Rigol MSO5000 is hardly missed in there.

The honest answer is: I don’t own an MSO5000. If I had one, I would certainly be happy to include it. But I want to base my comparison on first-hand observations... If someone owns both the SDS2k+ and MSO5000, do compare, and be my guest to use the structure of the document prepared for this comparison.

(And there are a couple of other scopes I’d love to lay my hand on, too ;-)

About including the Keysight DSOX: I thought it would be worth including this one because Keysight, with this oscilloscope, competes squarely with the R&S RTB oscilloscope in the educational market. While the DSOX1204G was only introduced in March 2019, it has a design/UI concept without a touch screen, and I thought it would be interesting to see how that compares. Is the touch screen design/UI concept overvalued, do other things matter more? Or is it really a no-go to buy a non-touchscreen device today? (Note that also the current Keysight InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series has no touch screen…)

I also recall EVVBlog’s Dave even recently writing that the DSOX is his go-to scope in the lab. Made me curious too, what qualities make him turn to this instrument, while he (arguable) has choices in his lab?

Finally, I found that the DSOX has some nice tricks up its sleeves too that the other scopes I reviewed could learn from. Some examples: (1) when a channel is set to AC coupling, it disables the DC mode of the DVM. The RTB, for instance, does not do this and hence present wrong measurement results. (2) It can do XY imaging with blanking coming in on a “Z” channel. (3) It can link the trigger system to modulation of the internal AWG, thus exploiting the fact the AWG is built into the same device. (4) When in web access mode, the device itself (!) delivers an extensive HTML guide of SCPI commands to the connected computer. Do such points alone make it a more attractive scope than others? I don’t think so. But we do learn from it. 

[Domitronic]

Hello,

i think there is a mistake in the document regarding the vertical scale / sensitivity for the Siglent. At least my Siglent has a range from 500µV/div to 10V/div and it is the 100MHz version as received from the dealer without any hacks. So the full range is not only available if the 500MHz option is enabled.

This is also a major drawback of the R&S in my opinion. If you work with european mains voltage you need additional x100 probes because with x10 probes the RTB can "only" show 500Vpp. This might not be a big deal for most people i guess. But another drawback in that case is the more or less unusable FFT if you want to check harmonics of 50Hz mains voltage. At least until the last update. Might have changed now but i can't ckeck since i don't have the RTB anymore.

[RBBVNL9]

Thanks, Domitronic.

i think there is a mistake in the document regarding the vertical scale / sensitivity for the Siglent. At least my Siglent has a range from 500µV/div to 10V/div and it is the 100MHz version as received from the dealer without any hacks. So the full range is not only available if the 500MHz option is enabled.

You are right. On the SDS, the horizontal scale changes with the 500MHz option, but not the vertical scale. Have updated the document (will publish along with a list of other additions shortly).

This is also a major drawback of the R&S in my opinion. If you work with european mains voltage you need additional x100 probes because with x10 probes the RTB can "only" show 500Vpp. This might not be a big deal for most people i guess. But another drawback in that case is the more or less unusable FFT if you want to check harmonics of 50Hz mains voltage. At least until the last update. Might have changed now but i can't ckeck since i don't have the RTB anymore.

Indeed, the Siglent goes to 10V/div (thus 100V/div with a x10 probe) and the RTB only to 5V/div (thus 50V/div with a 10x probe). However, tho things to take into account:
1. The RTB has 12 vertical divisions (compared to 10 on the SDS), so can show 12 * 50 = 600V with 10x probes
2. For mains measurements, I myself prefer to use high voltage differential probes, instead of having to measure between live and the earth point. You can then choose a model with CAT safety ratings corresponding to your tasks These days, there is a fair offer of affordable HV differential probes with x50 and x100 attenuation.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and keep on commenting!

[Domitronic]

Indeed, the Siglent goes to 10V/div (thus 100V/div with a x10 probe) and the RTB only to 5V/div (thus 50V/div with a 10x probe). However, tho things to take into account:
1. The RTB has 12 vertical divisions (compared to 10 on the SDS), so can show 12 * 50 = 600V with 10x probes

The RTB has 10 divisions while Siglent has 8 as far as i know. So its 500V with the 10x probes on RTB. And of course it is better to use differential HV probes with main voltages. Less risk to blow anything up compared to standard probes. Thats clear.

[RBBVNL9]

The RTB has 10 divisions while Siglent has 8 as far as i know.

Ah yes, you are right in that.
RTB2000: 12 horizontal, 10 vertical divisions
SDS2000X+: 10 horizontal, 8 vertical divisions

Had that correct in the overview document but misquoted myself 

[2N3055]

The Rigol MSO5000 is hardly missed in there.

The honest answer is: I don’t own an MSO5000. If I had one, I would certainly be happy to include it. But I want to base my comparison on first-hand observations... If someone owns both the SDS2k+ and MSO5000, do compare, and be my guest to use the structure of the document prepared for this comparison.

(And there are a couple of other scopes I’d love to lay my hand on, too ;-)

About including the Keysight DSOX: I thought it would be worth including this one because Keysight, with this oscilloscope, competes squarely with the R&S RTB oscilloscope in the educational market. While the DSOX1204G was only introduced in March 2019, it has a design/UI concept without a touch screen, and I thought it would be interesting to see how that compares. Is the touch screen design/UI concept overvalued, do other things matter more? Or is it really a no-go to buy a non-touchscreen device today? (Note that also the current Keysight InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series has no touch screen…)

I also recall EVVBlog’s Dave even recently writing that the DSOX is his go-to scope in the lab. Made me curious too, what qualities make him turn to this instrument, while he (arguable) has choices in his lab?

Finally, I found that the DSOX has some nice tricks up its sleeves too that the other scopes I reviewed could learn from. Some examples: (1) when a channel is set to AC coupling, it disables the DC mode of the DVM. The RTB, for instance, does not do this and hence present wrong measurement results. (2) It can do XY imaging with blanking coming in on a “Z” channel. (3) It can link the trigger system to modulation of the internal AWG, thus exploiting the fact the AWG is built into the same device. (4) When in web access mode, the device itself (!) delivers an extensive HTML guide of SCPI commands to the connected computer. Do such points alone make it a more attractive scope than others? I don’t think so. But we do learn from it.

There are many people that use digital scopes old way, like a CRT scope with memory and measurements and storage.
They twiddle buttons until what's on screen looks familiar. They don't think about digital scope as an dedicated analytic computer with a signal acquisition front end. They want for scope to emulate CRT scope, as much as possible. That is the way they think, the way they know how to use it, the familiar way.
They are the ones that love Keysight InfiniiVision scopes. They are good scopes for service, for instance, where you need to simply check if there is signal, that signal roughly looks like it should and have basic tools for that.

In a perfect world, one would have an advanced analytical scope that does advanced analysis, and one Keysight Infiniivision scope for service type of work. Preferably 3000T/A series, DSOX1000 series are too basic to justify purchase.

If I had only one scope, no way I would get DSOX1204 before RTB2000 or SDS2000X+.

If you just have a hobby, want a modern replacement for your old CRT scope and you only want to do basic things, DSOX1204 will do that job well.
For same money you can get more value if you look elsewhere.

[RBBVNL9]

@ PeDre

With the RTB2004 you can activate the Z channel with SCPI commands.

Awesome! Played a bit with it, it works. Noted you you first need to set the waveform brightness first to 50%, otherwise there is no blanking. And it takes a bit of experimenting to determine the input level/settings and the actual degree of blanking. 

This trick is not anywhere in the RTB manual, however. (Searching for it, I did find it in RTM20xx manual..) 

Are you (or others) aware of other functionalities of the RTB not documented in the manual?

If so, please share!!!

Thanks again.

[RBBVNL9]

@ Pope:

It would be great if there were timestamps on the video.

Done.

@2N3055:

Keysight OTOH is much simpler platform and has much less features, releases were mostly bug fixes and paid features unlocks

I was surprised myself to see how many actual new features were added by Keysight via firmware updates. Examples (just looking since at FW2.x versions, after Keysight moved to Linux OS):
- Measurement statistics (FW2.12)
- USB Keyboard entry for labels, annotations, file names, etc. (FW2.10)
- Table (lister) of serial decode messages (FW2.10)
- DEMO function with training signals etc. (FW2.10)
- LXI compliance and VXI-11 protocol support (FW2.10)
- Save and upload waveforms and other files via web interface (FW2.10)
- SCPI Device Control online manual via web interface (FW2.10)
- USB or LAN attached printer support (FW2.10)

Granted, some of these just brought the instrument in line with what was already there in competing scopes, but still, it's nice to see that functionalities are added, even as of recently (September 2021).

Performance improvements include:
- Increased waveform update rate (FW2.10)
- Increased number of memory segments (FW2.10)
- Additional memory depth (FW2.10) (even if it's still not impressive compared to competitors...)

[2N3055]

@ Pope:

It would be great if there were timestamps on the video.

Done.

@2N3055:

Keysight OTOH is much simpler platform and has much less features, releases were mostly bug fixes and paid features unlocks

I was surprised myself to see how many actual new features were added by Keysight via firmware updates. Examples (just looking since at FW2.x versions, after Keysight moved to Linux OS):
- Measurement statistics (FW2.12)
- USB Keyboard entry for labels, annotations, file names, etc. (FW2.10)
- Table (lister) of serial decode messages (FW2.10)
- DEMO function with training signals etc. (FW2.10)
- LXI compliance and VXI-11 protocol support (FW2.10)
- Save and upload waveforms and other files via web interface (FW2.10)
- SCPI Device Control online manual via web interface (FW2.10)
- USB or LAN attached printer support (FW2.10)

Granted, some of these just brought the instrument in line with what was already there in competing scopes, but still, it's nice to see that functionalities are added, even as of recently (September 2021).

Performance improvements include:
- Increased waveform update rate (FW2.10)
- Increased number of memory segments (FW2.10)
- Additional memory depth (FW2.10) (even if it's still not impressive compared to competitors...)

Out of all these DEMO with training signals is only thing that is optional and useful. Printer support is useless and never in my life I used it or will. Saving data to network share is useful thing. They have same stupid thing in expensive 3000T series too.

The rest of the features are things that they HAD to add because they were ridiculed about it. Even 300€ Rigol DS1054Z and Siglent SDS1104X-U has statistics... SDS1104X-E has all of it for whooping 500€...

Memory was pathetically small, it had 50 segments in segmented memory.. etc etc..
It wasn't them being nice, it was the struggling to survive...

Funny thing, is by doing all that they made it actually usable, and if I had to buy low end Keysight scope, I would buy DSOX1200X and not 2000S series.. It is much more affordable and basically better.

But DSOX1204 is seriously outclassed by both RTB2000 and SDS2000X+.  They are two levels up from it.

There is nothing impressive about DSOX1204. Just a nice CRT emulation with good refresh rate. Which, by the way is NOT at the level of 3000a/T series (that is "legendary" for it's 1 Milion triggers per second) but only has 1/5 of that.  Still very good thou, but nothing special.
Rigol MSO5000 is more than twice faster than that.

It reminds me of one of those Ferrari branded golf carts. Whooohoo but bla...

If it where 500-600 € scope then fine. Even then, competition has more memory etc etc. But that is it's class. And we could argue feature ws polish and brand name ...

[RBBVNL9]

@ PeDre

I have played around with the RTB2004 XYZ mode for some time,

My own experiments largely align with yours.

• In analogue mode, it seems from min to max channel values there are four equal ‘zones’ in which brightness goes from low to high.
• In digital mode, the threshold can be set from -100 to +100 (different from the RTM) but value 0 puts the threshold at the minimum channel value (next to negative overload) and other values dont change this behavior.

Having this said, this is not a claimed or documented feature, so we should not complain. After some experimentation it’s useful for those that need it. 

But should R&S (in a future firmware upgrade?) ever introduce this function to the RTB, the above things need to be ironed out for sure - even if that might not be difficult for them to do. Probably low hanging fruit (and they are already written the UI code for other devices using the same software platform...)

Also, if they do so, it would be great if a math channel can be selected as Z source. That way the user can 'prepare' the signal in a way fitting the purpose. (Typically, in scopes that call this feature 'blanking', a positive value dimes the screen, and those that cal it 'intensity control', a positive value makes the screen bright. Using math can make the user make it behave anyway he wants). 

[RBBVNL9]

Now posted the next video, which is on user interface and customization (Episode 2). I also updated the functional comparison documents with lots of additions and a couple of changes and corrections, thanks to the input on this forum.

https://youtu.be/T_A3TPn-2IU

[blurpy]

That's the link to youtube studio and not the video for viewing

[RBBVNL9]

That's the link to youtube studio and not the video for viewing

Eh, yes. 

Video is here (really):

https://youtu.be/T_A3TPn-2IU

[2N3055]

That's the link to youtube studio and not the video for viewing

Eh, yes. 

Video is here (really):

https://youtu.be/T_A3TPn-2IU

An error with the 10Bit mode. SDS2000X+ is limited to 100MHz in 10Bit mode. Not 10MHz or 20Mhz.