need a decision support for an oscilloscope (DSO)

[tggzzz]

The R&S RTM3004 I tested didn't had any trouble recording 32000 messages for example.

while far from an expert, i've used high-end DSOs, and (unfortunately) used low-end DSOs. i would say that for 95% of average users the siglent SDS scopes (i own an SDS1104X-e upgraded to 200MHz myself) provide usability and performance closer to the high-end. the technology has reached a point of maturity where the performance is, to be honest, quite amazing.

however, i would always recommend a cheap (clone) saleae logic analyser - these can be had for around the us$10 mark on ebay - hooked up to a laptop via USB. these devices provide far superior serial bus decoding than any but the most expensive MSO. the main place where an actual MSO (or DSO with serial decoding) shines is when you need to decode serial data and see the data aligned beside an analog trace. this is not something most folks need to do often, if ever!

so, my suggestion is to consider serial bus decoding a nice extra feature, which may be useful on occasion, but not something to be a deal breaker when there are other parameters that have a far greater impact in your day-to-day use of the instrument. for just a few dollars you can get a dedicated device to do serial bus decoding that does the job far better than most DSOs and MSOs.


just my opinion, mind you.

cheers,
rob   :-)

A sane opinion IMNSHO.

Use a scope for analogue-domain signal integrity verification/debugging.

Use a logic analyser or protocol analyser or printf() for digital domain verification/debugging.

[Frank_MV]

New situation for me:
Possibly I can get this RTB2004 through a student discount
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004EDU.html
But bandwidth is only 70MHz and without MSO.

The siglent I had chosen
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html
has 100MHz and can do almost everything the RTB2004 of the student version can do.

With the RTB2004 I could still upgrade the bandwidth to 100MHz (If it must be) for 400€, but an upgrade to 200 MHz or 300MHz is much too expensive.

The Siglent has the bandwidth hack, the RTB not (as yet).

Now this is a difficult decision for me. Actually 70MHz/100MHz would be enough.

[Fenstergucker]

Now this is a difficult decision for me. Actually 70MHz/100MHz would be enough.

I bought the RTB2004 at 70 MHz and measured the -3 dB at 120 MHz. Now I have the 200 MHZ option, but I have not measured it yet.

Edit: I would also wait for the firmware update to come this month. If this is not satisfactory, I would not buy an R&S instrument for my private use.

[Frank_MV]

Now this is a difficult decision for me. Actually 70MHz/100MHz would be enough.

I bought the RTB2004 at 70 MHz and measured the -3 dB at 120 MHz. Now I have the 200 MHZ option, but I have not measured it yet.

Edit: I would also wait for the firmware update to come this month. If this is not satisfactory, I would not buy an R&S instrument for my private use.

 -3 dB at 120 MHz with a RTB2004 at 70MHz bandwidth  ?
did you measure correctly ? 

Why is the update important ?
Is something not working correctly ?

[Fenstergucker]

[ -3 dB at 120 MHz with a RTB2004 at 70MHz bandwidth  ?
did you measure correctly ? 

I am sure that I have measured correctly. And it is not unusual that the bandwidth is higher than the manufacturer says.

Why is the update important ?
Is something not working correctly ?

There are some small errors, but they are annoying. e.g. in the LAN settings, changes in the ports are ignored. For me it is also bad that triggering on a PAL video does not work properly. The external trigger is also limited for this.
But a bad error is in the normal trigger mode, where the sample rate and memory depth is displayed or used incorrectly. The documentation in the manuals for the SCPI commands is sometimes incorrect or missing.

I am a bit disappointed about the quality for the price. Also I could never reach anybody at R&S by e-mail. I have given up collecting the errors and passing them on. As a company you probably find it easier to be heard.

[Frank_MV]

[ -3 dB at 120 MHz with a RTB2004 at 70MHz bandwidth  ?
did you measure correctly ? 

I am sure that I have measured correctly. And it is not unusual that the bandwidth is higher than the manufacturer says.

Why is the update important ?
Is something not working correctly ?

There are some small errors, but they are annoying. e.g. in the LAN settings, changes in the ports are ignored. For me it is also bad that triggering on a PAL video does not work properly. The external trigger is also limited for this.
But a bad error is in the normal trigger mode, where the sample rate and memory depth is displayed or used incorrectly. The documentation in the manuals for the SCPI commands is sometimes incorrect or missing.

I am a bit disappointed about the quality for the price. Also I could never reach anybody at R&S by e-mail. I have given up collecting the errors and passing them on. As a company you probably find it easier to be heard.

this is of course annoying with the bugs.
Someone who is not so well versed may not even notice the trigger errors and look for the cause elsewhere.
But bugs are everywhere, also at Siglent, Rigol, Tek, Keysigth, PeakTech,...

Maybe it was different in the past, when firmware updates were not yet possible. Probably there was a better final check.
My old analog Hameg Scope has, I think, no bugs. At least I haven't found any in the last 25 years ;-)

[SilverSolder]

[...]
My old analog Hameg Scope has, I think, no bugs. At least I haven't found any in the last 25 years ;-)

It is valuable to have tools that you trust (and know the limitations of)!   It is very annoying dealing with buggy software buried in a piece of equipment.

[KaneTW]

What was the PAL trigger issue? I didn't have any problems when I used it a while back.

[Fenstergucker]

What was the PAL trigger issue? I didn't have any problems when I used it a while back.

If the video trigger for the line number is used, the trigger point is either one line number too late or in the middle of a line. It is also often triggered to the wrong field. There is also partly a big jitter, depending on how you trigger. My other oscilloscopes trigger correctly, like the Hameg HM2008.

If the external trigger input is used, only the trigger 'All Lines' works. With all other triggers like 'All frames' etc. the triggering will not work.

[KaneTW]

Interesting. I've used the same feature and didn't encounter that -- maybe it doesn't trigger correctly on some signals. I haven't tried external trigger myself.

Are you a small business or a private customer? I didn't have any issues reaching R&S when I had issues via their GLORIS support site.

[Frank_MV]

Interesting. I've used the same feature and didn't encounter that -- maybe it doesn't trigger correctly on some signals. I haven't tried external trigger myself.

Are you a small business or a private customer? I didn't have any issues reaching R&S when I had issues via their GLORIS support site.

I had contact to the Rohde & Schwarz support too, but the employee told me that they  have instructions
to provide support exclusively to corporate customers.
Private persons should contact the distributors
But this is now outside the topic ;-)

[Fenstergucker]

I bought the RTB2004 privately. It is a really good oscilloscope, especially the logic channels and protocols work well. With the PAL video, I was able to record a complete frame with the segmented memory, line by line with 25 MS/s.
But I find the detent knobs terrible, they sound like Easter ratchets. And the collapsed menu, which you have to scroll vertically, is no help either. I don't understand why you can't see all menu items at once.

[Frank_MV]

I bought the RTB2004 privately. It is a really good oscilloscope, especially the logic channels and protocols work well. With the PAL video, I was able to record a complete frame with the segmented memory, line by line with 25 MS/s.
But I find the detent knobs terrible, they sound like Easter ratchets. And the collapsed menu, which you have to scroll vertically, is no help either. I don't understand why you can't see all menu items at once.

Maybe this is better with the SDX2000x Plus with its detent knobs and menus.
But there are probably only a few who have tested both devices side by side - SDX200xPlus and RTB2000.

[KaneTW]

Yeah, this might be a good reason to avoid the RTB if you aren't a company. I'm self-employed so I count as a corporate customer and get different support treatment.

[Fenstergucker]

One difference is the screen resolution, the RTB has 1280 x 800 pixels.
And a maximum of 1200 x 680 pixels are used for the signal.

[Frank_MV]

Yeah, this might be a good reason to avoid the RTB if you aren't a company. I'm self-employed so I count as a corporate customer and get different support treatment.

I buy as a private person 

What is it like at Siglent ?
may I ask questions as a private person ?

[mawyatt]

Yeah, this might be a good reason to avoid the RTB if you aren't a company. I'm self-employed so I count as a corporate customer and get different support treatment.

I buy as a private person 

What is it like at Siglent ?
may I ask questions as a private person ?

Well here in US, Siglent USA certainly was helpful when I had a mishap with my new SDS2102X Plus. I needed to disassemble the DSO and clean the inside from a spilled drink (long story), this required removing the PCBs and thoroughly cleaning and drying them which required removing the front membrane panel. To get this out you must remove a label that covers the input BNC area to get to 3 bolts to fully disassemble the scope. I damaged the label removing it and Siglent quickly provided a replacement label at no cost

This teardown adventure is how I learned just how well this DSO is designed and built, not the method I would have preferred tho

Siglent CS here is the US is excellent, and I'm not a corporation!! This was my 1st Siglent instrument, so treating a newcomer like this leaves a lasting impression

This is also good business practice, as I've now purchased the SDG2042X and SSA3021X Plus

Best,

[Frank_MV]

This is how it must be   

So I should probably opt for a siglent.
;-)

[tautech]

Yeah, this might be a good reason to avoid the RTB if you aren't a company. I'm self-employed so I count as a corporate customer and get different support treatment.

I buy as a private person 

What is it like at Siglent ?
may I ask questions as a private person ?

Well here in US, Siglent USA certainly was helpful when I had a mishap with my new SDS2102X Plus. I needed to disassemble the DSO and clean the inside from a spilled drink (long story), this required removing the PCBs and thoroughly cleaning and drying them which required removing the front membrane panel. To get this out you must remove a label that covers the input BNC area to get to 3 bolts to fully disassemble the scope. I damaged the label removing it and Siglent quickly provided a replacement label at no cost

This teardown adventure is how I learned just how well this DSO is designed and built, not the method I would have preferred tho

Siglent CS here is the US is excellent, and I'm not a corporation!! This was my 1st Siglent instrument, so treating a newcomer like this leaves a lasting impression

This is also good business practice, as I've now purchased the SDG2042X and SSA3021X Plus

Best,

Mike, the Hamburg GM is a good man too. Very focussed on a good customer experience with providing good support. A few chaps here have had need to contact him and come away with what they needed.

Frank, you can be confident with EU support.

[Electro Fan]

The SDS2000X Plus comes with the Logic Analizer for free because of the promo, .........

No, sorry it doesn't. 
MSO is excluded from the promo package.
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

Those bundled promo items are "interesting" but what Siglent should offer is a bundle for this:

http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sds2000x-plus/sds2104x-plus.htm

that includes this:

http://www.saelig.com/product/spl2016.htm
and this:
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2000xp-16la.htm

[Frank_MV]

If I have read the Siglent SDS2000x Plus manual correctly, the internal Waveform Generator has no sweep function.
Can someone please confirm this.
Thanks.

[nctnico]

The R&S RTM3004 I tested didn't had any trouble recording 32000 messages for example.

OK so you're not comparing apples with apples. 
RTM3004 is a 5 GSa/s DSO with 80 Mpts max memory and is in another totally different price class to SDS2000X Plus DSO's.
OTOH the OP was looking at RTB2000 which only has 10 Mpts mem depth so could well be more limited in the # of packets it can display.

The RTB2000 is very close in architecture and software compared to the RTM3000. I doubt there will be a large difference in number of packets. Perhaps someone with an RTB2004 can do a test.

[Frank_MV]

Yeah, this might be a good reason to avoid the RTB if you aren't a company. I'm self-employed so I count as a corporate customer and get different support treatment.

I buy as a private person 

What is it like at Siglent ?
may I ask questions as a private person ?

Well here in US, Siglent USA certainly was helpful when I had a mishap with my new SDS2102X Plus. I needed to disassemble the DSO and clean the inside from a spilled drink (long story), this required removing the PCBs and thoroughly cleaning and drying them which required removing the front membrane panel. To get this out you must remove a label that covers the input BNC area to get to 3 bolts to fully disassemble the scope. I damaged the label removing it and Siglent quickly provided a replacement label at no cost

This teardown adventure is how I learned just how well this DSO is designed and built, not the method I would have preferred tho

Siglent CS here is the US is excellent, and I'm not a corporation!! This was my 1st Siglent instrument, so treating a newcomer like this leaves a lasting impression

This is also good business practice, as I've now purchased the SDG2042X and SSA3021X Plus

Best,

Mike, the Hamburg GM is a good man too. Very focussed on a good customer experience with providing good support. A few chaps here have had need to contact him and come away with what they needed.

Frank, you can be confident with EU support.

Thanks tautech