FLUKE 107 - absolute garbage lasted 2 years

[TomKatt]

Yes, there was battery leakage and I've reconstructed the terminals. It's working fine other than the readings which are off, but also I don't think that is related to the problem, unless you know something specific about that.

I lost track, but it seems like this is the first mention of battery leakage?  I’m not a big believer in coincidence - there has to be a connection.

[shapirus]

Yes, there was battery leakage and I've reconstructed the terminals. It's working fine other than the readings which are off, but also I don't think that is related to the problem, unless you know something specific about that.

Check this one out:

[floobydust]

These small Flukes, they deleted the usual protection zener-connected transistors.
So I don't expect them to be robust in certain situations. Not the same protection despite the familiar parts such as surge resistor, PTC, MOV's.
TVS D1 is across the battery so the BAV199 CR1 might dump overvoltages there - still a terrible idea.

My Fluke 107 survived five positive and negative 14kV 100us full width half height transients through a 2 ohm source.  Very few meters I have looked at would survive that level.  While the 107 was eventually damaged at 15kV, I was able to repair it and it is still fully functional today.   Sadly I can't say that about many of the meters I have looked at and they get recycled. 

It's not even a question of cost.  I have a Fluke 101 that has yet to be damaged with all my testing and it cost less than $50.  Consider I ran a Keysight U1282A that was closer to $800 which couldn't survive the same levels as my cheap Amprobe AM510.   And with all the custom parts, it could not be repaired.   

No, it's the Ohms source protection that I'm questioning. I don't see the clamp semi's on the board pics. That has to handle significant current until the PTC heats up, which takes several seconds for long surges.
Did you apply transients (either polarity) to the multimeter on Ohms? I can't remember if your transient generator can output either polarity, you don't give out info about it.

ESD testing I've done is 10 hits with both polarities. A BBQ lighter is only one. It's possible to protect against one polarity but not the other.

[factory]

Yes, there was battery leakage and I've reconstructed the terminals. It's working fine other than the readings which are off, but also I don't think that is related to the problem, unless you know something specific about that.

I lost track, but it seems like this is the first mention of battery leakage?  I’m not a big believer in coincidence - there has to be a connection.

There was no mention before, but there was mention of the batteries being replaced, but not why.
From experience battery leakage can make a right mess and cause leave conductive mess behind & corrode away fine traces.
Was it caused by Duraleak by any chance?

For example there is a thermometer at work that had batteries leak, it works fine at lab temperatures of 20°C, take it anywhere else it measures way, way out of spec. It's been out for calibration several times to the crappy external company work uses now, they pass it every time, hopefully someone has junked it by now as it's unusable.

David

[joeqsmith]

These small Flukes, they deleted the usual protection zener-connected transistors.
So I don't expect them to be robust in certain situations. Not the same protection despite the familiar parts such as surge resistor, PTC, MOV's.
TVS D1 is across the battery so the BAV199 CR1 might dump overvoltages there - still a terrible idea.

My Fluke 107 survived five positive and negative 14kV 100us full width half height transients through a 2 ohm source.  Very few meters I have looked at would survive that level.  While the 107 was eventually damaged at 15kV, I was able to repair it and it is still fully functional today.   Sadly I can't say that about many of the meters I have looked at and they get recycled. 

It's not even a question of cost.  I have a Fluke 101 that has yet to be damaged with all my testing and it cost less than $50.  Consider I ran a Keysight U1282A that was closer to $800 which couldn't survive the same levels as my cheap Amprobe AM510.   And with all the custom parts, it could not be repaired.   

No, it's the Ohms source protection that I'm questioning. I don't see the clamp semi's on the board pics. That has to handle significant current until the PTC heats up, which takes several seconds for long surges.
Did you apply transients (either polarity) to the multimeter on Ohms? I can't remember if your transient generator can output either polarity, you don't give out info about it.

ESD testing I've done is 10 hits with both polarities. A BBQ lighter is only one. It's possible to protect against one polarity but not the other.

Sorry you lost me.  I have gone over the waveforms many times over the years and where they came from.     

When I wrote "... survived five positive and negative 14kV 100us ..." it would be understood that was both polarities.  As always, I subject the meter to 5 transients of each polarity.  I do this for every function the meter has except those involving current.  This is the way I have always conducted these tests.   For the 107, that electrically has 5 functions, that is 5 transients X 2 polarities X 5 functions, or 50 transients.   I run that for each voltage level.    For the 107, there were a minimum of 10 levels, so a bit over 500 transients.

 As far as your comment: "... I don't see the clamp semi's on the board...", they are certainly present in the photos you linked.  I would assume your inability to identify them is just a lack of education on your part.   No big deal.   It doesn't help that many expert reviewers will point to PTC and call them MOVs or point to diodes and call them resistors.  For a non educated viewer, it just adds confusion.    As far as how the clamps actually work, I have gone over that a few times.   

The resistance and other low voltage modes are protected with the high speed clamps which are downstream from the PTC and surge rated resistors.  This is what was damaged on my 107 when I applied the 15kV transient.   I went over the repairs. 

The 107 is a very electrically robust meter.   Calling it absolute garbage after the OP leaves the batteries in for an extended time says more about the owner than the product. 

[stj]

if this meter had alkaline battery failure then the pcb needs a vinegar-wash.
alkaline batteries dont leak liquid, it's a vapor and it gets into and under stuff.

[floobydust]

I use vinegar to neutralize the salts, with a toothbrush scrub. Then a water rinse, then repeat but with IPA and let it dry overnight or in an oven.
Some parts of the circuit board are very sensitive to leakage currents. Hard part is the rotary switch lube, washing that off leads to a new problem for the switch.

These small Flukes, they deleted the usual protection zener-connected transistors.
So I don't expect them to be robust in certain situations. Not the same protection despite the familiar parts such as surge resistor, PTC, MOV's.
TVS D1 is across the battery so the BAV199 CR1 might dump overvoltages there - still a terrible idea.

My Fluke 107 survived five positive and negative 14kV 100us full width half height transients through a 2 ohm source.  Very few meters I have looked at would survive that level.  While the 107 was eventually damaged at 15kV, I was able to repair it and it is still fully functional today.   Sadly I can't say that about many of the meters I have looked at and they get recycled. 

It's not even a question of cost.  I have a Fluke 101 that has yet to be damaged with all my testing and it cost less than $50.  Consider I ran a Keysight U1282A that was closer to $800 which couldn't survive the same levels as my cheap Amprobe AM510.   And with all the custom parts, it could not be repaired.   

No, it's the Ohms source protection that I'm questioning. I don't see the clamp semi's on the board pics. That has to handle significant current until the PTC heats up, which takes several seconds for long surges.
Did you apply transients (either polarity) to the multimeter on Ohms? I can't remember if your transient generator can output either polarity, you don't give out info about it.

ESD testing I've done is 10 hits with both polarities. A BBQ lighter is only one. It's possible to protect against one polarity but not the other.

Sorry you lost me.  I have gone over the waveforms many times over the years and where they came from.     

When I wrote "... survived five positive and negative 14kV 100us ..." it would be understood that was both polarities.  As always, I subject the meter to 5 transients of each polarity.  I do this for every function the meter has except those involving current.  This is the way I have always conducted these tests.   For the 107, that electrically has 5 functions, that is 5 transients X 2 polarities X 5 functions, or 50 transients.   I run that for each voltage level.    For the 107, there were a minimum of 10 levels, so a bit over 500 transients.

 As far as your comment: "... I don't see the clamp semi's on the board...", they are certainly present in the photos you linked.  I would assume your inability to identify them is just a lack of education on your part.   No big deal.   It doesn't help that many expert reviewers will point to PTC and call them MOVs or point to diodes and call them resistors.  For a non educated viewer, it just adds confusion.    As far as how the clamps actually work, I have gone over that a few times.   

The resistance and other low voltage modes are protected with the high speed clamps which are downstream from the PTC and surge rated resistors.  This is what was damaged on my 107 when I applied the 15kV transient.   I went over the repairs. 

The 107 is a very electrically robust meter.   Calling it absolute garbage after the OP leaves the batteries in for an extended time says more about the owner than the product. 

I agree the OP could be too angry about the warranty or self-inflicted leaking battery damage. Some forums forbid titles containing judgements or slander/smearing and we might need that here.
So your tests find the 107 electrically robust and not OP's problem.

The MOV's only bring the transient voltage down to 910-1,500V (hard clamp 25A). It's still too high for the silicon, so clamp zener-connected transistors or TVS are usually used for the second level protection. "high speed clamps" well there's a single BAV199 clamping to what? Compare with the 17B schematic. It's hard to speculate without a 107 schematic but eyeballs show no clamp transistors as well as missing MOV #3.  TVS D1 implies they're dumping transients to the power rails and assuming the battery helps - which is new and further economy. That's why I'm saying they could have made a mistake, have to be very careful.

OP, you can't calibrate out a hardware problem. 30% out is too much, fix the hardware first and remember to hate Duracell and love your Fluke lol.

[Gyro]

Please post a clear photo of the PCB (preferably both sides) so that we can see the extent of any contamination / corrosion.

[coppercone2]

if this meter had alkaline battery failure then the pcb needs a vinegar-wash.
alkaline batteries dont leak liquid, it's a vapor and it gets into and under stuff.

its not a vapor, its a aerosol. The only vapor they make is water. What they can do is spritz a mist that settles on various parts, and leak liquid that wicks up surfaces, and wicks up wires (like a sponge).


If it evaporates into a vapor, its water that leaves the electrolyte caustic chemicals behind as a solid.

The battery consists of various inorganic chemicals, water and some specialty additives (surfactant, etc)


If the battery were to leak out, and then peacefully dry up in a puddle on the bottom of the battery cavity, you would only have humidity damage in the meter. But usually it starts misting (hissing, high pressure) and it makes corrosive fog.


vapor is actually evaporated stuff in molecular gas form. A lead acid battery WILL make some small amount of corrosive VAPOR because it has sulfuric acid in there (a chemical that does not vaporize easily, but it will in fact make corrosive acid gas if it does). Thankfully sulfuric acid does not like to vaporize and it takes a really hot malfunctioning battery to start essentially boiling H2SO4 aqueous into H2SO4 vapor.


If you ever come across a alkaline battery leak, it often sounds like a capacitor pop, followed by intermittent hissing or farting noises after that. 

[factory]

I guess the next question is, were the old batteries that were removed, supplied by Fluke with the meter or not?

David

[floobydust]

its not a vapor, its a aerosol.  [...]

Not even an aerosol - the battery's potassium hydroxide electrolyte will wick and creep via electrolysis. The ions (current flow) causes that stuff to travel, then it seems to dry out and crystalize as potassuium carbonate.
I'm saying (along with Energizer in their seal patent) that the leaks are some strange ion migration, along the case metal and then to the PCB per Murphy's Law.
Yesterday I popped open a label printer to find 6 AA leaking Duracells taking the piss, what a mess. No spray or squirt etc. KOH just travelled along the plastic compartment.

I wonder why Fluke is using bare copper vias, they could tent them at no extra cost. Western Digital has many controller boards oxidize and copper vias suffer creep corrosion, with a little help from sulphur in the air.

[joeqsmith]

So your tests find the 107 electrically robust and not OP's problem.

I have no idea what the problem is with the OP's meter.  I am only responding to your comments on the meter's robustness based on data I have collected for it.   

The MOV's only bring the transient voltage down to 910-1,500V (hard clamp 25A). It's still too high for the silicon, so clamp zener-connected transistors or TVS are usually used for the second level protection. "high speed clamps" well there's a single BAV199 clamping to what? Compare with the 17B schematic. It's hard to speculate without a 107 schematic but eyeballs show no clamp transistors as well as missing MOV #3.  TVS D1 implies they're dumping transients to the power rails and assuming the battery helps - which is new and further economy. That's why I'm saying they could have made a mistake, have to be very careful.

Yes, that is the purpose of the  MOVs and why I mentioned  the high speed clamps that follow them when the low voltage circuits (like the resistance mode) is selected.  Again, I damaged these parts on the 107, the video shows me replacing them.   The photos you link did not show the bottom side of the board so of course they are not shown there but they certainly exist.   Their choice for the high speed clamp holds up well against my testing.  Like most of the better meters I have looked at, it saved the parts downstream from damage.   The majority of the meters I have looked at were not repairable.  Interesting enough a member here repeated the tests I performed with the 101 on an actual combo generator with the same results.   

[coppercone2]

its not a vapor, its a aerosol.  [...]

Not even an aerosol - the battery's potassium hydroxide electrolyte will wick and creep via electrolysis. The ions (current flow) causes that stuff to travel, then it seems to dry out and crystalize as potassuium carbonate.
I'm saying (along with Energizer in their seal patent) that the leaks are some strange ion migration, along the case metal and then to the PCB per Murphy's Law.
Yesterday I popped open a label printer to find 6 AA leaking Duracells taking the piss, what a mess. No spray or squirt etc. KOH just travelled along the plastic compartment.

I wonder why Fluke is using bare copper vias, they could tent them at no extra cost. Western Digital has many controller boards oxidize and copper vias suffer creep corrosion, with a little help from sulphur in the air.

its both believe me. Wear eye protection if you change a recently leaked cell. It squirt and spray. Before I heard it like a steam over pressure valve lol.

Sometimes the cell gets real hot and starts leaking. I assume its a short circuit of some kind (maybe the electrolyte is shorting it out and increasing pressure on the top)

I had one cell that burst, then every few minutes I hear a spritzer type noise for like 15 min before  I found it, and it was pretty hot too

[wraper]

Yes, there was battery leakage and I've reconstructed the terminals. It's working fine other than the readings which are off, but also I don't think that is related to the problem, unless you know something specific about that.
I agree that it's most likely toast, but would like to try and use the calibration terminals just to see what I can get before I throw it away.
I could not find any reference to the WP9, WP8, WP7, WP6 calibration terminals anywhere.

There was battery leakage but sure meter suddenly started reading wrong not because electrolyte got somewhere on the PCB but because meter is garbage. Yeah, right.

[stj]

i repair industrial pcb's with leaked batteries on them every week - have for decades.
it's not a spray.
and dont trust lithium AA or half-AA cells either, they eventually corrode from the inside and let hell loose on your pcb.


as for the alkaline problem, i have seen a theory that they leak now because the formula was changed for political reasons and they removed the mercury that stabilised the mix.

[coppercone2]

it mists. I saw it. There was even a spray pattern on the ESD mat from the spray. it discolors it! its like you hit it with a spray bottle of dye

They can either vent and totally leak or progressively vent spurtzing if they get under pressure

[Caliaxy]

[…]
If you ever come across a alkaline battery leak, it often sounds like a capacitor pop, followed by intermittent hissing or farting noises after that.

We learned something today

[coppercone2]

because it happened and I went looking for a capacitor (try to see smoke near vents of equipment) before I realized its right in front of me after I heard it let out a hiss a few minutes later

I literarly thought like a small electrolytic capacitor popped open. Same noise if you reverse polarity a capacitor. Not a bang, more like that doofpop, with a bit of that 'rushing' noise

[Simon]

well battery compartments are not liquid proof, somewhere it probably got onto the board. I think flukes quote was accurate. You need a new meter. Test equipment has to damn well work, or you can't do anything else. It is your reference, so it's right to be more particular about just replacing a dud one.

[shakalnokturn]

I understand about being harsh on OP for not mentioning battery leakage to start with, besides it must have been severe enough if battery contacts needed rework.
Not updating with pictures of the multimeter isn't in his favour either, still it isn't absolute proof that his negligence wrecked it...

I've repaired about 10 DMM's hit by battery contamination, none have exhibited being false by a constant ratio, it has always been fluctuating depending on measurements.

If OP could get back to us with some pictures and measurements it may be possible to save his Fluke.

Attached datasheet for COB, a good starting point is supply voltages and Vref (should be 1.16V)

[BeBuLamar]

There is a poll about right to repair perhaps some of the meters were built not repairable. I know Fluke doesn't repair the 11x series. When I called them about a 116 that failed during warranty they told me to send it in for them to destroy and they sent me a new one. They said they can't fix the 116. So I think the 107 is the same but because the OP meter is out of warranty so they told him to buy new one.

[Gyro]

If the 107 uses a commodity chip and if the chip is available like the datasheet, then it probably puts it in the user repairable class (at least for electronic damage), unlike most other Fluke meters. A PCB eaten by battery electrolyte is possibly a different matter though. Chip replacement would require getting the COB off the PCB of course, which is usually no easy task.

Such a repair would obviously not be economically viable for the manufacturer, but determined folk don't often factor in their time (in the case of bin finds).

[shakalnokturn]

The problem with replacing  FS98O24 is that it requires some application specific programming (DMM manufacturer specific customisation).
I don't know how much of a hinder to repair it is in this case.
The cal constants and user adjustments don't seem too difficult for the Fluke 107.

[Simon]

There is a poll about right to repair perhaps some of the meters were built not repairable. I know Fluke doesn't repair the 11x series. When I called them about a 116 that failed during warranty they told me to send it in for them to destroy and they sent me a new one. They said they can't fix the 116. So I think the 107 is the same but because the OP meter is out of warranty so they told him to buy new one.

It's not just a case of not made for repair. If component level troubleshooting takes some time then the cost of that time outweighs a new meter that will have way more chance of working just fine than an attempt at a repair. TV repairers - remember those when TV's were so expensive, used to charge a flat rate per repair. The reason was that if the charged the real repair cost they would make nothing from the easy stuff and the cost to the customer on a hard repair would be so high that it would not be financially viable or deemed BER, beyond economically repairable.

[David Aurora]

@mendip_discovery: You made me laugh, thank you for that.
Yes, I replaced the batteries.
I'm not sure what happened, I've always treated with a lot of care...
I know it's that far off because I have other multimeters.

Yes, there was battery leakage and I've reconstructed the terminals. It's working fine other than the readings which are off, but also I don't think that is related to the problem, unless you know something specific about that.
I agree that it's most likely toast, but would like to try and use the calibration terminals just to see what I can get before I throw it away.
I could not find any reference to the WP9, WP8, WP7, WP6 calibration terminals anywhere.

Why do people always have to have details about damage dragged out of them 

As a repairer it absolutely drives me nuts, and it's a massive percentage of people who do this for whatever bizarre reason. "I don't know what happened, it just turned off and wouldn't turn back on" "I see. And the scorch marks?" "Oh, that. Yeah it was in a house fire. But it worked fine before that!"