First Scope Purchase

[MrWizerd]

So I was not sure if this should go in newbies, or here in test equipment, and while this is a test equipment question, it is also a very noobish one.  I know that the Tektronix 465 Oscilloscopes are widely recommended as a scope for new hobbyists.  So I have been trying to find a reasonably priced unit that functions, this has proven to be a bit difficult.  Either way I have found three scopes that are currently candidates for my birthday present to myself.  The two Tektronix units are close to me so shipping is under 20 dollars, in fact shipping on all of them is under 20 dollars so that is not a factor in the choosing of these units.

the First is a Tek 465 priced at 149 it comes with two Tek P6105 probes, this is a bonus because I don't have any probes.  It is powered on with two flat traces but no other test has been done.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201450920651?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

the second is the Tek TAS465, this one looks newer and a lot cleaner than the last unit and I like its stylings better, it also seems less daunting since its user interface looks simpler.  I don't know if the reason that the 465 is recommended is because of all the dials and switches or not.  This unit is slightly more at 161 and does not have any probes, so I would have to buy them but esthetically I like this one better and it does seem to be newer, but this may not be a plus I am not sure.  It also is said to pass the self test.

TAS465

The last scope is an option due to its price.  It is NOT a Tektronix either it is a Leader scope, 2 channel 100mhz.  it is priced at 90 dollars and that is all the info they give other than the pictures.  Again this unit has a slightly less daunting control interface and is more esthetically pleasing to me.  This is only important of course if it functions. 

Leader 1100

Ultimately, I am unsure if the third should even be considered.  I am personally leaning toward the second scope the Tektronix TAS465 but am not sure if I should because I know that the first one is more often recommended, and it has probes.   I like the idea of a new scope, but I know that the older units are often very robust in there construction due to several different reasons, the saying they don't make them like they used to often applies, but I am not sure.  I like that the second one also passes the self test, this is at least assure that it may partially work and not be just a very expensive brick.  Of course there is the possibility of them breaking in the future and the older one may be easier to fix than the newer, I don't know though.  So I am turning to the community to help me with this conundrum.  I know that I am making some assumptions here, and that I am new so please don't pound on me to roughly.  Also thanks in advance for all the help, I really REALLY appreciate it, it will help me make an informed purchase or at least a more informed purchase and that is very important to me.

[radhaz]

What do you plan to use the scope for?

[Electro Fan]

I think all 3 links are to the same scope (the earlier 465).

It might depend on whether this is your first scope or your last scope.  If it's your first, any of the 3 might be fine - might depend on which one is in the best condition and will give you the most reliability.  Just having a scope for a while will help you figure out what you value in a scope.  If it's your last scope I'd go with one of the Tektronix scopes.  The first Tek is a classic - built to last a zillion years which is good because it is half a zillion years old (and there are probably lots of donor parts available - assuming you have the skill to fix it - but that might be a tough challenge for a new user).  The second Tek (TAS) probably won't get so much love here, but it will have some advantages including the onscreen readouts that can be pretty helpful to a new user who is trying to figure out all the information that a scope can convey.  Some folks here might say the TAS will be less reliable or tougher to fix.  I'm sure you will get some good insight from others here.  Either way, try to get one in good shape and enjoy it!

[bills]

Mr wizerd
Where are you located? I may have a freebe for you. No I won't ship. I am in south cal.

[MrWizerd]

What do you plan to use the scope for?

I plan to use it for general poking prodding and learning about different stuff.  My background is computer/network systems, and sensors so I have lots of electronics experience but most of it is repair/replace less design from ground up.  I am learning more about what things can be made and invented when you know more about the way the stuff interacts with one another rather then how to find and fix broken pieces.

I am located in Bakersfield.  Its the armpit of California where where the arm beds to head to southern California.... That and its hot and mildly humid here most of the time, so it seems like an appropriate way to describe the place, also it stinks when your out in the industrial areas .... which are everywhere.

Also I fixed the links.  but this is most likely my first, there will probably come a day when I spring for a more expensive Digital unit in the realms of 3-600 when I gather that much, but more importantly know HOW to use the thing.  I have always wanted one since when I first started messing around with computers at the ripe old age of 14 or so.  But was never financially inclined to get one.  The funny thing is I probably could have gotten one then for a fraction of the cost they sell at now, but I was happy with my 8088 from the Pepperdine university library in 1992.  This devolved into a rant/running history, suffice to say I appreciate the help and information. 

One of the things that I am a little worried about to is the weight because I don't have a lot of space, and I am unable to lift much more than 25 pounds, I figured the newer unit might be a little lighter, but... Right now I will take what I can get so long as I don't need a truck to move it HAHA.

[bills]

PM me I may have something you can use.
I go through your area several times a year.

[Wuerstchenhund]

So I was not sure if this should go in newbies, or here in test equipment, and while this is a test equipment question, it is also a very noobish one.  I know that the Tektronix 465 Oscilloscopes are widely recommended as a scope for new hobbyists. 

Not really. That may have well ben true say 5 years ago but not in 2015. In fact, these days the recommendation is that new hobbyists get one of the entry-level digital scopes (i.e. Rigol DS1054z) instead of an old analog boat anchor, simply because it's much more versatile and capable, plus you're not teaching yourself outdated procedures that can often be more a hindrance than a help.

$150 for a 30+ year old analog scope that very likely will now be close to the end of it's service life isn't really cheap or a great bargain, and more likely than not an investment you'll regret later (either if it breaks, and you need a second scope to fix it, or if you find out that the primitive scope simply can't deliver what you need).

[Fungus]

So I was not sure if this should go in newbies, or here in test equipment, and while this is a test equipment question, it is also a very noobish one.  I know that the Tektronix 465 Oscilloscopes are widely recommended as a scope for new hobbyists.

Says who?

And when did they say it? Two year old forum posts don't count - the world has moved on.

In the post-DS1054Z world you'd have to be paying well under $100 to consider buying a 1970s-era analog 'scope*. $150+shipping? Not cheap by any standard.

(*Unless it's a really amazing high-end 1970s-era 'scope obviously, but the Tek 465 isn't...)

[SteveLy]

Out of the three, get the first one. The screen burn on the second one is bad news. The "Leader" has the highest probability of being a POS. They are all risky though if you can't inspect before you buy.

[vk6zgo]

So I was not sure if this should go in newbies, or here in test equipment, and while this is a test equipment question, it is also a very noobish one.  I know that the Tektronix 465 Oscilloscopes are widely recommended as a scope for new hobbyists.

Says who?

And when did they say it? Two year old forum posts don't count - the world has moved on.

In the post-DS1054Z world you'd have to be paying well under $100 to consider buying a 1970s-era analog 'scope*. $150+shipping? Not cheap by any standard.

(*Unless it's a really amazing high-end 1970s-era 'scope obviously, but the Tek 465 isn't...)

Yes,the world,& exchange rates have moved on------an $A600 DS1054Z is pretty much out of most people's buying range in Oz,so your advice is really only applicable to those countries where they are still  reasonably priced.

Also, the 465 is 100MHz "out of the box"---no "hacking" needed.

A 70MHz analog from the '70s would be cheaper!.

[Fungus]

Yes,the world,& exchange rates have moved on------an $A600 DS1054Z is pretty much out of most people's buying range in Oz,so your advice is really only applicable to those countries where they are still  reasonably priced.

That Tek465 would cost you $350 AUD.

Doesn't matter where you live, 50% of the price of a DS1054Z for a basic 1970s analog 'scope is simply bad value for money.

I Know a DS1054Z is still in the 'expensive' category for a lot of people (me included!) but paying too much for a 40-year old CRO isn't solving that problem. You need to save up longer or find a cheaper CRO (eg. try a $100 offer on that auction).

After owning a DS1054Z for a year I wouldn't really want that Tek at any price. It's too limited in function and takes up too much table. Would you use a 1970s multimeter? Drive a 1970s family saloon car?

7 watchers on that auction? They're crazy old fogies who still believe analog 'scopes are "less noisy".   

Also, the 465 is 100MHz "out of the box"---no "hacking" needed.

Yeah, those 2 minutes of hacking are such a drag.

[Cubdriver]

You have room for the other 19 you'll eventually be buying, right?   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/why-does-everyone-have-twenty-oscilliscopes/

For what it's worth, I have an old 465 and like it, and for that matter prefer the user interface on the older scopes.  While the panel on the newer model looks less daunting, in practice I find the newer ones to be more of a pain to work with when changing settings as they have controls that do multiple things depending on which button is pressed.  Change the vertical scale on channel one?  Press the channel one button, then turn the knob.  Want to tweak ch 2 now?  Push the ch 2 button first, otherwise you're still changing channel 1.  On the 465 and its ilk, to change channel 1, grab the channel 1 knob and turn it.  Likewise for channel 2, but in this case grab the channel 2 knob.  This may seem like a very minor quibble, but in actual operation in my opinion at least, it quickly gets annoying.  Which button do I need to push to get this one knob to do what I want it to do versus simply turning the appropriate knob.

I gather from your post that you don't have a lot of experience driving oscilloscopes, and in that case I think the older interface might be preferable to learn on, too, as you can very easily change different settings quickly without having to jump through menus or function button presses to do so.  This will let you easily see what does what as you bounce around the panel changing settings and learning how they interact and affect the readout.

My 2 cents, worth less these days due to inflation.

-Pat

[Gyro]

A relevant EDN article that agrees with you (on the 465 layout)...

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/benchtalk/4437768/2/Classic-oscilloscope-front-panels

[vk6zgo]

Yes,the world,& exchange rates have moved on------an $A600 DS1054Z is pretty much out of most people's buying range in Oz,so your advice is really only applicable to those countries where they are still  reasonably priced.

That Tek465 would cost you $350 AUD.

Doesn't matter where you live, 50% of the price of a DS1054Z for a basic 1970s analog 'scope is simply bad value for money.

I Know a DS1054Z is still in the 'expensive' category for a lot of people (me included!) but paying too much for a 40-year old CRO isn't solving that problem. You need to save up longer or find a cheaper CRO (eg. try a $100 offer on that auction).

After owning a DS1054Z for a year I wouldn't really want that Tek at any price. It's too limited in function and takes up too much table. Would you use a 1970s multimeter? Drive a 1970s family saloon car?

7 watchers on that auction? They're crazy old fogies who still believe analog 'scopes are "less noisy".   

Also, the 465 is 100MHz "out of the box"---no "hacking" needed.

Yeah, those 2 minutes of hacking are such a drag.

Nobody in Australia would pay $350 for a 465!
The exchange rate would make the equivalent price in Oz around $A207.-----You can't include freight as I would not be buying from the USA.

I've certainly seen 465s & the like advertised for around $A350, in Oz,but they don't sell,& are re-listed.

The DS1054Z price in US Dollars is $399,which should relate to around A$554,but It seems to be advertised at $A600 or more including GST.

A 465 is hardly a "basic" Oscilloscope---it has two channels,100MHz bandwidth,delayed sweep.
Such instruments were used for the most painstaking work prior to,& well into the DSO era.

Early DSOs were more use as "doorstops" than anything else!

The only thing that was at all useful in most work was the storage capability.
This was horribly disappointing to me,as I expected them to be revolutionary.
Sadly,the Revolution has taken about 25 years to arrive!

About the 1970s DMM----I have a 1988 Fluke 77,so not quite that old.

It is a much more useful instrument than the UNI-T & "Meterman" DMMS I have tried.
Much faster response when taking a reading,& it doesn't turn itself off while you are measuring things.
Even the much more modern Fluke they had at one of my last jobs had this infuriating habit.

My main 'scope is a 1970s Tek 7613,which gives me all the stuff the 465 has,plus two extra channels.
Yes,it's big,but you very seldom have to move it far.

If you want big & heavy,try a Tek 524AD,a Polyskop,or any one of the first generation HP or Tek  DSOs or Logic analysers.

[liquibyte]

So I was not sure if this should go in newbies, or here in test equipment, and while this is a test equipment question, it is also a very noobish one.  I know that the Tektronix 465 Oscilloscopes are widely recommended as a scope for new hobbyists.

Says who?

And when did they say it? Two year old forum posts don't count - the world has moved on.

In the post-DS1054Z world you'd have to be paying well under $100 to consider buying a 1970s-era analog 'scope*. $150+shipping? Not cheap by any standard.

(*Unless it's a really amazing high-end 1970s-era 'scope obviously, but the Tek 465 isn't...)

I'm the one that recommended the 465B and I also told him to keep costs under $100, well under.  I have a 465B and its easy enough to use and gets the job done for what I use it for which is pure analog power supply fiddling.  MrWizard is a friend of mine and he's been helping me redesign that old 0-30V 0-3A fiasco with the 0.47 ohm sense heater.  Sinking a couple hundred in a scope not knowing if you'll end up shelving it due to waning interest is bad advice IMHO.  I figured a 465B would at least have a little resale value if too much wasn't invested in it in the first place.  I got mine for around $50 at the MIT flea market so YMMV.

Oh and I meant to say that one of the reasons that these ebay folks are asking so much for equipment is a direct result of this forum coming into existence.  I base that on the fact that I've been a member there since year one and watching the decline of ebay from a nice way to earn extra money to let's make a living there.  $50 is a far cry from $350 for most of us that don't make 80-100K+ a year.  See, some of us are poor and struggle to even scrape the cash together for the parts of projects we'd like to take on but life/rose colored glasses etc.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I'm the one that recommended the 465B and I also told him to keep costs under $100, well under.  I have a 465B and its easy enough to use and gets the job done for what I use it for which is pure analog power supply fiddling.  MrWizard is a friend of mine and he's been helping me redesign that old 0-30V 0-3A fiasco with the 0.47 ohm sense heater.  Sinking a couple hundred in a scope not knowing if you'll end up shelving it due to waning interest is bad advice IMHO.  I figured a 465B would at least have a little resale value if too much wasn't invested in it in the first place.  I got mine for around $50 at the MIT flea market so YMMV.

$50 sounds a lot more sensible for such a scope than $150.

Oh and I meant to say that one of the reasons that these ebay folks are asking so much for equipment is a direct result of this forum coming into existence.  I base that on the fact that I've been a member there since year one and watching the decline of ebay from a nice way to earn extra money to let's make a living there.

Maybe. The other thing is that Tek has build a certain reputation for scopes, and especially starters are tempted to bid often ridiculous amounts for gear just because it carries the Tek label.

But that is true for essentially everything else eon ebay. Just look at the prices of old Apple gear.

$50 is a far cry from $350 for most of us that don't make 80-100K+ a year.  See, some of us are poor and struggle to even scrape the cash together for the parts of projects we'd like to take on but life/rose colored glasses etc.

If price is really an issue then the question remains why pay more just for the Tektronix name. Tek made great analog scopes but frankly they weren't the only ones, HP had some very good scopes, too, as had Philips and Iwatsu, and often their scopes with similar specs go for a lot less than the Tek equivalent.

The other alternative is to just ignore ebay altogether and look for an old analog banger on craigslist/gumtree or in the Buy/Sell section of this forum. With some luck he might even get one for free.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

I know a lot of people recommend the DS1054Z. But for someone new I actually do recommend the Tektronix 465, or a 2245, or a Philips scope. As they are repairable and he will better understand the basics of how a Oscilloscopes works. As far as overpaying, it a popular model, you can always resell it later down the road and get your money back, or most of it and depending on price you pay, you may actually get more for it. Just don't get the 2445, or 2465, or 2467, as they use custom parts that are hard to obtain and are expensive. The high end Tektronix scopes are great, but not for someone new. I would check, or post on local classifieds. You may get one dirt cheap, or free.

Stay away from those pocket DSO's on eBay, or PC scopes, they are crap at best for the most part. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

I know a lot of people recommend the DS1054Z. But for someone new I actually do recommend the Tektronix 465, or a 2245. As they are repairable and he will better understand the basics of how a Oscilloscopes works.

I have to disagree. Although their purpose (and what the user sees) is pretty much the same in many (not all) areas, analog scopes work differently than digital scopes, and analog scopes are pretty useless to teach someone how a modern scope works or how to use it correctly. It teaches nothing about the relationship between bandwidth, sample rate and memory size, aliasing, how to work with sample memory (heck, the 465 doesn't even have any storage!), how to measure (not guesstimate) relevant signal properties, use FFT, math or (on better scopes) advanced analysis to get the relevant signal details, or capture rare glitches and then extract their properties. If anything it helps to build some basic knowledge of how to handle what essentially is a museum piece, and many practices that are great on analog scopes don't work very well on digital scopes. 

As to repairable, I'd say the last thing a beginner needs is a tool that becomes a project in itself. Fixing a broken analog scope often requires a second (working) scope, plus (depending on the fault) other kit like a signal generator. There is also a lot of mechanical gear like switches which simply wears out and causes all kind of funny problems, and fixing them can be pretty challenging. All while the new entry-level DSO comes with 3 years of warranty.

As far as overpaying, it a popular model, you can always resell it later down the road and get your money back and depending on price, you may actually get more for it.

Maybe, but much more likely is that he might have to sell cheap or give it away because cheap entry-level DSOs will be even more prevalent, and more beginners will wonder if they should really buy some old boat anchor and forego all the improvements DSOs have brought us in the last 25 years or so, or just get a decent entry level DSO (i.e. the mentioned Rigol) and get cracking without having to worry about defects.

If one is really cash strapped, then well, why not if the price is really really low (say less than $100, although even that's stretching it). But as a beginner's scope in general I'd stay away from analog clunkers and get a DSO instead.

Even Dave no longer recommends that beginners should get an analog scope.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

I know a lot of people recommend the DS1054Z. But for someone new I actually do recommend the Tektronix 465, or a 2245. As they are repairable and he will better understand the basics of how a Oscilloscopes works.

I have to disagree. Although their purpose (and what the user sees) is pretty much the same in many (not all) areas, analog scopes work differently than digital scopes, and analog scopes are pretty useless to teach someone how a modern scope works or how to use it correctly. It teaches nothing about the relationship between bandwidth, sample rate and memory size, aliasing, how to work with sample memory (heck, the 465 doesn't even have any storage!), how to measure (not guesstimate) relevant signal properties, use FFT, math or (on better scopes) advanced analysis to get the relevant signal details, or capture rare glitches and then extract their properties. If anything it helps to build some basic knowledge of how to handle what essentially is a museum piece, and many practices that are great on analog scopes don't work very well on digital scopes. 

As to repairable, I'd say the last thing a beginner needs is a tool that becomes a project in itself. Fixing a broken analog scope often requires a second (working) scope, plus (depending on the fault) other kit like a signal generator. There is also a lot of mechanical gear like switches which simply wears out and causes all kind of funny problems, and fixing them can be pretty challenging. All while the new entry-level DSO comes with 3 years of warranty.

As far as overpaying, it a popular model, you can always resell it later down the road and get your money back and depending on price, you may actually get more for it.

Maybe, but much more likely is that he might have to sell cheap or give it away because cheap entry-level DSOs will be even more prevalent, and more beginners will wonder if they should really buy some old boat anchor and forego all the improvements DSOs have brought us in the last 25 years or so, or just get a decent entry level DSO (i.e. the mentioned Rigol) and get cracking without having to worry about defects.

If one is really cash strapped, then well, why not if the price is really really low (say less than $100, although even that's stretching it). But as a beginner's scope in general I'd stay away from analog clunkers and get a DSO instead.

Even Dave no longer recommends that beginners should get an analog scope.

If he could afford then, then would recommend a DSO like the DS1054Z, but with his budget, it doesn't seem like a option. Plus still a lot of thing you can learn in general from a analog crow. Then when he has the funds can upgrade to a good DSO and get one with decent bandwidth and real time sample memory and learn the rest.  Not saying I disagree with you, you just have to look at what the guy has to work with, which is what I did.   

[liquibyte]

I know a lot of people recommend the DS1054Z. But for someone new I actually do recommend the Tektronix 465, or a 2245. As they are repairable and he will better understand the basics of how a Oscilloscopes works.

I have to disagree. Although their purpose (and what the user sees) is pretty much the same in many (not all) areas, analog scopes work differently than digital scopes, and analog scopes are pretty useless to teach someone how a modern scope works or how to use it correctly. It teaches nothing about the relationship between bandwidth, sample rate and memory size, aliasing, how to work with sample memory (heck, the 465 doesn't even have any storage!), how to measure (not guesstimate) relevant signal properties, use FFT, math or (on better scopes) advanced analysis to get the relevant signal details, or capture rare glitches and then extract their properties. If anything it helps to build some basic knowledge of how to handle what essentially is a museum piece, and many practices that are great on analog scopes don't work very well on digital scopes. 

As to repairable, I'd say the last thing a beginner needs is a tool that becomes a project in itself. Fixing a broken analog scope often requires a second (working) scope, plus (depending on the fault) other kit like a signal generator. There is also a lot of mechanical gear like switches which simply wears out and causes all kind of funny problems, and fixing them can be pretty challenging. All while the new entry-level DSO comes with 3 years of warranty.

As far as overpaying, it a popular model, you can always resell it later down the road and get your money back and depending on price, you may actually get more for it.

Maybe, but much more likely is that he might have to sell cheap or give it away because cheap entry-level DSOs will be even more prevalent, and more beginners will wonder if they should really buy some old boat anchor and forego all the improvements DSOs have brought us in the last 25 years or so, or just get a decent entry level DSO (i.e. the mentioned Rigol) and get cracking without having to worry about defects.

If one is really cash strapped, then well, why not if the price is really really low (say less than $100, although even that's stretching it). But as a beginner's scope in general I'd stay away from analog clunkers and get a DSO instead.

Even Dave no longer recommends that beginners should get an analog scope.

We're talking about hobby use by a beginner here, not someone on the path to a degree in engineering.  Do you have stock in Rigol or something?  I've recommended a 100MHz analog scope as close to $50 as he can get or even free if it's available.  I've watched over and over people getting these DSO's and being overwhelmed in their use and frankly from that it appears to me to be a waste of money for no added benefit.  An analog scope is straight forward in its use, especially if you read the manual.  Would I like to have a DSO?  Sure, but I'm not going to forgo eating for it.  I lucked out, my scope still has all its original accessories including the manual and probes.  Everyone likes to have the latest "shiny" but in this case it's not necessary.  Upgrades at a later date knowing that you need it is far better than an initial outlay gathering dust because you didn't need it in the first place and will never use it for anything other than seeing a real time signal.

[MrWizerd]

Unfortunately, I cant afford four hundred dollars at the moment for the aforementioned Rigol, not to mention my wife would literally beat me to death with it if I did.  At the moment it appears that bills may have something that will work for me, and I just have to be patient and wait which I can do.  To be honest I have looked at many of the DSO's and the argument that the price is too much for these old units is absolutely correct, which is why I was ok looking at other brands, because the Tek's are in fact more expensive due to their names.  If it was just up to me, I would invest in a hackable DSO and be done with it, but the problem with that is even if I saved monthly and made that expenditure my wife would still beat me to death with it! 

But like I said it looks like bills may have one he is willing to part with, so I wont be expending any money on an analog scope.   I really appreciate all the advice that you have all given.  Thanks again!

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

I know a lot of people recommend the DS1054Z. But for someone new I actually do recommend the Tektronix 465, or a 2245. As they are repairable and he will better understand the basics of how a Oscilloscopes works.

I have to disagree. Although their purpose (and what the user sees) is pretty much the same in many (not all) areas, analog scopes work differently than digital scopes, and analog scopes are pretty useless to teach someone how a modern scope works or how to use it correctly. It teaches nothing about the relationship between bandwidth, sample rate and memory size, aliasing, how to work with sample memory (heck, the 465 doesn't even have any storage!), how to measure (not guesstimate) relevant signal properties, use FFT, math or (on better scopes) advanced analysis to get the relevant signal details, or capture rare glitches and then extract their properties. If anything it helps to build some basic knowledge of how to handle what essentially is a museum piece, and many practices that are great on analog scopes don't work very well on digital scopes. 

As to repairable, I'd say the last thing a beginner needs is a tool that becomes a project in itself. Fixing a broken analog scope often requires a second (working) scope, plus (depending on the fault) other kit like a signal generator. There is also a lot of mechanical gear like switches which simply wears out and causes all kind of funny problems, and fixing them can be pretty challenging. All while the new entry-level DSO comes with 3 years of warranty.

As far as overpaying, it a popular model, you can always resell it later down the road and get your money back and depending on price, you may actually get more for it.

Maybe, but much more likely is that he might have to sell cheap or give it away because cheap entry-level DSOs will be even more prevalent, and more beginners will wonder if they should really buy some old boat anchor and forego all the improvements DSOs have brought us in the last 25 years or so, or just get a decent entry level DSO (i.e. the mentioned Rigol) and get cracking without having to worry about defects.

If one is really cash strapped, then well, why not if the price is really really low (say less than $100, although even that's stretching it). But as a beginner's scope in general I'd stay away from analog clunkers and get a DSO instead.

Even Dave no longer recommends that beginners should get an analog scope.

We're talking about hobby use by a beginner here, not someone on the path to a degree in engineering.  Do you have stock in Rigol or something?  I've recommended a 100MHz analog scope as close to $50 as he can get or even free if it's available.  I've watched over and over people getting these DSO's and being overwhelmed in their use and frankly from that it appears to me to be a waste of money for no added benefit.  An analog scope is straight forward in its use, especially if you read the manual.  Would I like to have a DSO?  Sure, but I'm not going to forgo eating for it.  I lucked out, my scope still has all its original accessories including the manual and probes.  Everyone likes to have the latest "shiny" but in this case it's not necessary.  Upgrades at a later date knowing that you need it is far better than an initial outlay gathering dust because you didn't need it in the first place and will never use it for anything other than seeing a real time signal.

Plus 1

It's best for him to learn on a analog scope, so he can learn the basics first and less chance of it being a paperweight, or a door stopper. With a analog scope you have to learn how to do the math and under stand the controls of the scope. Then he can upgrade later to a decent DSO, when he has a chance to save up and at least have a basic understanding how a oscilloscope and it not to overwhelming to get pass the learning curve and can explain to him what to look for in a DSO when that time comes.

That another thing he will want to look into getting a cheap function generator to start with.

[Wuerstchenhund]

We're talking about hobby use by a beginner here, not someone on the path to a degree in engineering.  Do you have stock in Rigol or something? 

No, but I've seen often enough how "great" analog scopes are to teach someone how to operate a modern scope. Thankfully it has become much better these days but some years ago we sometimes got people who only ever used analog scopes, and these things show (and not in a good way!).

I've recommended a 100MHz analog scope as close to $50 as he can get or even free if it's available.  I've watched over and over people getting these DSO's and being overwhelmed in their use

Really? Can you refer to any threads showing where beginners say that they're "overwhelmed" by their DSO? Of course there's a learning curve for novices, but "overwhelmed"? I mean, seriously, it's not that operating a DSO is necessarily more difficult than an analog scope, so if someone was really "overwhelmed" by a modern entry level scope then that very much raises the question if electronics is the right hobby for that person after all.

and frankly from that it appears to me to be a waste of money for no added benefit.  An analog scope is straight forward in its use, especially if you read the manual.  Would I like to have a DSO?  Sure, but I'm not going to forgo eating for it.  I lucked out, my scope still has all its original accessories including the manual and probes.  Everyone likes to have the latest "shiny" but in this case it's not necessary.  Upgrades at a later date knowing that you need it is far better than an initial outlay gathering dust because you didn't need it in the first place and will never use it for anything other than seeing a real time signal.

I never said he should "forego eating", which in any case would be a silly thing to do. But the fact that he has a tiny budget doesn't change the fact that $150+ for a 30+yr old analog banger is a bad deal. In his case probably even more so as he seems unlikely to be able to afford writing the money off and getting something decent when he finds out it's insufficient (for example, he did mention computer/networking and sensors, so there might be serial communication involved). What if the scope fails and he needs spares? Do they come for free? Probably not.

The reality is that, as with any other hobby, there is a certain amount of money required for a sensible start into EE. How much that is depends very much on what one wants to achieve of course, but these days for a beginner scope the lower limit is the roughly $400 that buys somewhat devent entry-level scopes like the Siglent SDS1072CML, or the often mentioned Rigol DS1054z. Go lower, and you'll essentially end up with overpaid junk which is unlikely to do what you want and will only cause frustration, plus it means precious money wasted which could have been used for saving for something worthwhile.

As I said before, for someone who's short on cash short on cash my recommendation is to ask around and try to find an analog scope (aim for $50 or less, and with some patience you can often find them for free), or failing that better save a bit longer until the money buys you a decent tool.

[Fungus]

I'm the one that recommended the 465B and I also told him to keep costs under $100, well under.  I have a 465B and its easy enough to use and gets the job done for what I use it for which is pure analog power supply fiddling.   I got mine for around $50 at the MIT flea market so YMMV.

$50 is fair enough. Maybe $80...but not much more than that.

eBay is a bad place to look for that sort of equipment. Local auctions, etc., will get you a much better deal.

I'm not saying they're useless. If they fit your work then go ahead.

[Fungus]

I've watched over and over people getting these DSO's and being overwhelmed in their use

I'm not buying that for an instant. Basic use of a DSO is exactly the same as an Analog scope. The front panel has knobs for vertical scale, vertical position, timebase and trigger level.

The values are shown on a screen instead of being marked on the dial? Not going to confuse anybody these days. Almost everything we use in daily life uses on-screen menus.