First picture on EEVblog of the new R&S MXO4 series oscilloscope :)

[Domitronic]

I just saw the video and Daves enthusiasm about the probes. To me these probes look very much like the PML High-Z probe series from german company PMK:

http://www.pmk.de/en/products/pml_high_z_tastkoepfe

However they are only available up to 500MHz from PMK. So not exactly the same i guess. But other data like the 1650V peak and 9.5pF is the same. And the look is pretty similar as well. Does somebody know if the R&S probes are made by PMK? This could also explain why the probes are labeled with made in Germany.

[EEVblog]

I just saw the video and Daves enthusiasm about the probes. To me these probes look very much like the PML High-Z probe series from german company PMK:

http://www.pmk.de/en/products/pml_high_z_tastkoepfe

However they are only available up to 500MHz from PMK. So not exactly the same i guess. But other data like the 1650V peak and 9.5pF is the same. And the look is pretty similar as well. Does somebody know if the R&S probes are made by PMK? This could also explain why the probes are labeled with made in Germany.

Looks indenital in every way, right down the split in the probe end and the arrow.
Manual is fully branded R&S but has identitcal pictures and other info to the PMK manual, so 100% sure made by PMK. Nice find.
Price?

[Momchilo]

A lot of the passive Lecroy probes are also PMK probes. You can buy the linked 500MHz probe (PML 711A-RO) at Batronix for 327€ incl. VAT. It is the Lecroy PP008 probe.

[mkissin]

Looking at it, I'm fairly sure the same is true of the keysight passive probes, like the N2894A.
Everybody rebrands the current probes too, I just don't think there's enough ability to differentiate product to make it worthwhile putting the R&D into them.

[Domitronic]

A lot of the passive Lecroy probes are also PMK probes. You can buy the linked one at Batronix for 327€ incl. VAT. It is the Lecroy PP008 probe.

Yes, i know. And a few month back you could get the PML 711A-RO around 220 € incl VAT. Seems that they increased prices drastically. Luckily i bought them at the old price last year.

[Hydron]

Sadly it's hard to get hold of the much more unique PMK 20x probes - these look to be a good balance between input C and attenuation (you can get lower input capacitance in a 100x but at a massive attenuation cost, while the 20x ones are quite a bit lower than the 10x while not throwing too much signal out the window).

[jjoonathan]

Speaking of the PMK 20x probes, I always wondered if the 1GHz Tek probes weren't using the same trick to extend bandwidth. Does anyone here have a pair handy to measure?

[BU508A]

Sadly it's hard to get hold of the much more unique PMK 20x probes - these look to be a good balance between input C and attenuation (you can get lower input capacitance in a 100x but at a massive attenuation cost, while the 20x ones are quite a bit lower than the 10x while not throwing too much signal out the window).

Seems, the PML series has some 20:1 probes. I've attached the datasheet here as well.

[maxwell3e10]

Since MXO4 claims a record in waveform updates/sec, it would be good to know how the update rate changes with the number of channels turned on at the same time and the number of waveform points that is more than the minimum.

[nimish]

Somehow people cut much more slack for software than hardware errors. Remember how much bad press Intel got for a division bug in Pentiums. But software and firmware bugs are totally accepted. I wouldn't say that software is intrinsically more complicated than designing and making a big processor. Yet hardware gets more and more powerful while software gets more and more bloated while still having mostly the same functionality.
...

Traditionally, a lot more testing and verification has been put in to hardware. I have been doing ASIC design
for over 30 years. I have also done some software development (C/C++).

To manufacture an ASIC, the NRE is anywhere between $1Mil USD, 20 years ago, 180nm node, to about
$10Mil USD, Samsung 8nm node, 4 years ago. Because of the high cost, a lot more effort is being put in to
making HW to be correct the first time. Everything from functional verification, to toggle coverage to various
timing analysis had to be 100%. 

Since FPGAs have taken over a lot of the low-volume market, HW/chip designers have lost the art of making
hardware that works the first time around. We now see "firmware" upgrades that not only include software but
also hardware fixes in FPGA bit streams.

I bet the "freeze" Dave found in the MXO4 is from some FPGA ... the GUI appears to work just fine.

Overall, I believe it has become much less critical to properly verify and test hardware and software, since it
has become so easy to provide and install updates. I still vividly remember the times, when a software update
meant for a vendor to ship two 27xxx EEPROMS which you had to physically replace on a device motherboard.

As such, I believe all equipment we will see in this day and age will suffer from incomplete/faulty HW and SW.
It has become so cheap and convenient to issue a fix at  a later date, that I bet many of these vendors purposely
leave out features and function for a later date. Time-to-Market has become the driving force.

Comparing today's "equipment" to what was manufactured 20 years ago, I believe, the designs were much more
mature, complete and though through 20 years ago that they are today.


luudee

Who is taping out an 8nm ASIC for $10M? Can they share their alien technology?

When it costs in the millions for a mask-set respin I'm not surprised SW has to pick up the tab. The issue is that good SWE cost a lot of $ and HW companies simply don't pay enough. Why would you work on hard EDA/firmware problems when you can write JS for 4x the $?

[luudee]

Who is taping out an 8nm ASIC for $10M? Can they share their alien technology?

Not sure how to react to your silly post. 4 years ago we taped out an 8 nm ASIC with Samsung, NRE was about $9.8 Mil USD.
That did not include the $800K for back end services (3rd party), and god only know how much on engineering ...

When it costs in the millions for a mask-set respin I'm not surprised SW has to pick up the tab. The issue is that good SWE cost a lot of $ and HW companies simply don't pay enough. Why would you work on hard EDA/firmware problems when you can write JS for 4x the $?

lol

[Fungus]

Overall, I believe it has become much less critical to properly verify and test hardware and software, since it
has become so easy to provide and install updates.

This.

By the time the marketing machine has got the software into people's hands there's usually an "update available".

[nimish]

Who is taping out an 8nm ASIC for $10M? Can they share their alien technology?

That did not include the $800K for back end services (3rd party), and god only know how much on engineering ...

Sure, if you exclude all of the actual costs then you can make it as cheap as you like...

lol

I've heard of ~ $10MM for a full TSMC 7nm mask-set, maybe Samsung low-balled you since their 8nm sucked.

[EEVblog]

I've heard of ~ $10MM for a full TSMC 7nm mask-set, maybe Samsung low-balled you since their 8nm sucked.

Does anyone else ever think about the insaneness of just casually mentioning geometries like this?
One companies 7nm is great, but anothers 8nm sucks.
8 NANO meters! 
*insert mind blow emoji*

[mawyatt]

Now go figure what an individual MosFet cost in a production chip

Mind blowing indeed!!

Best,

[luudee]

I've heard of ~ $10MM for a full TSMC 7nm mask-set, maybe Samsung low-balled you since their 8nm sucked.

Remember, the mask NRE fluctuates very widely. When a new node comes out, you can see quotes as high
as $20Mil. This typically falls very quickly over the next 12 months, and then keeps on falling much slower for
the rest of the nodes' life. Since then, TSMC introduced 5nm, 3nm and is working on 2nm. Yes, Dave it's insane!

Yes, you are right, Samsung 8nm wasn't as great as TSMCs 7nm. But when you are not Apple or Qualcomm,
(and a couple of other stars), you'll never get into TSMC ... even GIC will not return you calls/emails ....


luudee

[nimish]

I've heard of ~ $10MM for a full TSMC 7nm mask-set, maybe Samsung low-balled you since their 8nm sucked.

Remember, the mask NRE fluctuates very widely. When a new node comes out, you can see quotes as high
as $20Mil. This typically falls very quickly over the next 12 months, and then keeps on falling much slower for
the rest of the nodes' life. Since then, TSMC introduced 5nm, 3nm and is working on 2nm. Yes, Dave it's insane!

Yes, you are right, Samsung 8nm wasn't as great as TSMCs 7nm. But when you are not Apple or Qualcomm,
(and a couple of other stars), you'll never get into TSMC ... even GIC will not return you calls/emails ....


luudee

Of course. That's just the mask set cost, not including the tens of millions/hundreds of millions in salaries, verification, IP and such. And since Samsung's "8nm" was "10nm++" I guess that you got a great price on an old node even 4 years ago.

Re TSMC: definitely not on the very latest nodes since Apple etc have bought up the entire capacity. Older nodes like 7FF are definitely available....but you are a small fry to TSMC.

By the way the node names have nothing to do with anything physical on the chip anymore, they are just marketing names. Nothing on the TSMC 3nm is actually 3nm except maybe thin film thickness

[Martin72]

Batronix (not only) offering the MXO4-BNDL promo.
1.5Ghz, all decoders, bode, function-gen included.
For only 23681€ 

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-MXO4-BNDL.html

[EEVblog]

Batronix (not only) offering the MXO4-BNDL promo.
1.5Ghz, all decoders, bode, function-gen included.
For only 23681€ 

Bargin if your company capex limit is €25k

[zhoneybee]

Would this scope be a good choice for me? I figured it'd be good to ask here instead starting another "which scope?" thread.

I work on embedded firmware, these days smart-home devices operating in 900 MHz band. My office has DS1104Zs for us firmware guys and an older 3 GHz Tek MDO with a built-in spectrum analyzer claimed by our EE, but I'd like to have my own bit of kit. I'd prefer at least 200 MHz of bandwidth with an upgrade path to 1+ GHz, 4 analog channels, and I2C / SPI decoding. I2S would be nice too. I admittedly don't know whether a built-in SA is worth the premium for me; I don't get enough opportunity with the one at work to become proficient.

In terms of budget, I'd feel great at $5k USD, good at $10k, and stretched thin by $20k. Before the MXO4 had been announced, I'd been looking at a Keysight MSOX3204G. The MXO4 out-specs it in a lot of ways and has a SA, but the MSO and protocol-decoding options drive the price up to $14k, and at that point I'm sorely tempted just to buy the bundle. At the same time my ill-nurtured thrifty side is encouraging me to seriously consider what I truly need and budget accordingly. The dream would be to pick up an MXO4 at the base price and purchase a promotional bundle of options for a song later on, but that might just be a dream.

Any advice? I'm open to suggestions for other scopes too.

[tautech]

................

Any advice? I'm open to suggestions for other scopes too.

Welcome to the forum.

The $3,690 SDS5034X is worthy of consideration too with upgrade available to 500 Mhz however to go higher you need the more expensive SDS5054X.
See here:
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-500-to-1-ghz-2-channel-models/

[zhoneybee]

................

Any advice? I'm open to suggestions for other scopes too.

Welcome to the forum.

The $3,690 SDS5034X is worthy of consideration too with upgrade available to 500 Mhz however to go higher you need the more expensive SDS5054X.
See here:
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-500-to-1-ghz-2-channel-models/

Thanks, I'll review that. Is it not an option to purchase the SDS5034X, upgrade to 500 MHz, and later upgrade to 1 GHz?

[tautech]

................

Any advice? I'm open to suggestions for other scopes too.

Welcome to the forum.

The $3,690 SDS5034X is worthy of consideration too with upgrade available to 500 Mhz however to go higher you need the more expensive SDS5054X.
See here:
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-500-to-1-ghz-2-channel-models/

Thanks, I'll review that. Is it not an option to purchase the SDS5034X, upgrade to 500 MHz, and later upgrade to 1 GHz?

Yup you certainly can do that but entry cost is higher at $5,890.
They have a better front end for the higher BW's. 

[Martin72]

I figured it'd be good to ask here instead starting another "which scope?" thread.

Hm?
This is a model-specific thread here...

[pdenisowski]

Would this scope be a good choice for me?

Yes, it would be an excellent choice

I admittedly don't know whether a built-in SA is worth the premium for me; I don't get enough opportunity with the one at work to become proficient.

And what better way to become proficient than having a scope with SA?   In all honesty, I can't say that "everyone needs spectrum analysis" because that simply isn't true.  However, in my experience, once someone learns how and when to use spectrum analysis, it becomes very hard for them to use a scope without it:  there are many, many cases where looking at spectrum can help solve or identify an issue that would be very difficult to see in the time domain.

The dream would be to pick up an MXO4 at the base price and purchase a promotional bundle of options for a song later on, but that might just be a dream.

I can't comment on future promotions or bundle options, but I can tell you that the MXO4 is an entirely new generation of oscilloscopes and is about as "future proof" as you can get in terms of performance and support across the entire T&M industry.  We spent many years developing the MXO and its custom ASIC (which is where most of the cutting edge specs come from), and we are adding significant functions and features with each new release.

Obviously, I'm just a little biased here, but the MXO is the first oscilloscope I've been really excited about in a long time