REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol

[marmad]

After many attempts, I think may be the only option is to select OK soft-button option from the GUI...so eventually I did.

The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there. 

I'm not sure what to do...I'm quite worried 

Any suggestions?

Sorry, my scope came with 01.00.05 installed, so I've never done the upgrade. But from what I've read elsewhere (about the DS4000 sticking during the upgrade), I'm afraid if it stays stuck the only remedy is sending it back to the dealer. You can try restarting the procedure, but the problem is that the bug in 01.00.02 (which overwrites critical data) can happen during the non-HELP method of upgrading - so you may have lost calibration data.

Edit: Just saw your message - clearly you lost at least the trial options - which wouldn't have happened with the normal HELP upgrade. I'd be a bit worried about calibration data - you should probably run some tests.

[marmad]

So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

Perhaps you misread this when you looked the first time? Everyone on the board who has posted their version numbers (and that was mostly people with 01.00.02 firmware) ALL had 1.0.1.0 hardware version.

Never mind, I'm wrong  - I just looked back and I see that branadic posted his hardware version as 1.1.0.0 --- well, since the hardware obviously doesn't change with a firmware upgrade, I guess Rigol just changed the hardware numbering scheme in the 01.00.05 firmware.

[Sparky]

So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

Perhaps you misread this when you looked the first time? Everyone on the board who has posted their version numbers (and that was mostly people with 01.00.02 firmware) ALL had 1.0.1.0 hardware version.

In this case, not possible --- the hardware version was definitely 1.1.0.0 before the upgrade. 

It is not true that everyone on 01.00.02 firmware had version 1.0.1.0.  For example, see branadic's post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg164386/#msg164386

This is the first time I noticed there was a hardware version 1.1.0.0, and that was the post I referred to when I was comparing the version numbers of my system.  I specifically noted that my hardware version number was 1.1.0.0 at the time.

branadic: can you check, what is your hardware version number now?  I will not be surprised it has also decreased to 1.0.1.0 as mine did.


Edit: no worries marmad --- we cross-posted!

[marmad]

Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

This test might give you some info about the integrity of your calibration data:

Let the scope warm up for +30 minutes.
Run a test signal to the scope and measure the voltage (it can be anything as long as it's a stable voltage).
Then disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Then reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Then repeat one more time:
Disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.

[drieg]

The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there. 
It has stopped at 60% for at least 15 mins now. 

Yes, this is what happens if you don't do it during boot via HELP button on 01.00.02 There is a bug in this version, the trial options timer keeps checking installed options during update process and causes flash bank gets changed accidentally in certain time of update process (in your case 60%). This consequently causes that the part of new firmware goes into incorrect part of flash memory and can rewrite some important data (model information, factory calibration,...). FORTUNATELY in DS2 these data have its backups in another part of the memory and after next reboot are automatically recovered.

So, as you already found out, the solution is simple - to recover it with another FW update from the bootloader (through HELP button) and your unit should work fine.

As for the HW version, actually it didn't get downgraded, the new firmware just shows 5 digits instead of 4, there additional "0" on the second place:

Hardware version: 1.1.0.0 (FW 01.00.02)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0 (FW 01.00.05)

[Sparky]

Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

This test might give you some info about the integrity of your calibration data:

Let the scope warm up for +30 minutes.
Run a test signal to the scope and measure the voltage (it can be anything as long as it's a stable voltage).
Then disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Then reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Then repeat one more time:
Disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.

Thanks for the suggestion, marmad.  I have followed your idea, and here is my results:

1. I tried measuring 9V battery.  My Fluke 289 (calibrated < 1 year ago) would give 9.670V, and the Rigol 9.74V after self-cal #1, and 9.72V after self-cal #2.  The DS2072 was set to 2V/div.

I think it was not a good evaluation because of limited DAC resolution on DS2072.  So I did second test:

2.  I connected calibrated signal generator with 2mV amplitude square wave output (0 to 2mV), at 1kHz.  I set DS2072 to 500uV/div, with 100usec / division time-base to see a complete period of square wave.  I set the acquisition to average mode, with 8192 averages.  Wait some time for averages to accumulate.  The time-base information of the square wave (period, frequency) is spot on 1kHz.  For amplitude measurements: Vpp = 1.96mV (expect 2mV), and Avg. = 937uV (expect 1mV). 

I repeated the self-cal with probes detached, and the following is my second set of measurements, for the same test signal:

Vpp = 1.98mV (expect 2mV), and Avg. = 998uV (expect 1mV). 


With 8-bit vertical resolution, and 500uV/div * 8 divisions, then we have 4mV/256 = 15.625uV/bit.  So, the measurements are off 1 or 2 bits of resolution, and this could just be within spec of my signal generator.


I don't think I should expect better repeatability and precision, so perhaps my factory calibration data is still intact.

Anyone wish to do the above test and share their results?

Sparky

[Sparky]

Thank-you drieg for the additional information on system backup to recover from failed firmware updates in the DS2000 series.  It is a relief that the system factory calibration and other critical data was not lost.

It is also good to have some explanation about the change in hardware version!

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

[jeeff47]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to let everyone know about my experiences. I also ordered the DS2072. I received it about a month ago and i am really impressed with it (for the most part).

Majority of the pros have already been mentioned here numerous times but the key reason why I like it are:
- Wide screen with the option to hide/show the menu on the side
- overall product has some solid hardware the unit is rigid and for the most part fairly portable.
- UI is fairly easy to navigate.

I found originally that as I also like resting my hand on the top of the unit and end up hitting the buttons  (like some of the other members pointed out). But I have gotten used to the scope and I do it far less frequently.

Also the selection knob is sometimes difficult to press but, if you go to other scopes in other brands you will also encounter this.

I have mixed feelings about the measure buttons being on the left side of the screen. I do like the easy access but as I am also accustomed to pressing a measure button. This is something that I will have to get used to.
 
my biggest pet peeves are:
(cons)
I do hear the fan while the unit is running, this may be because normally when using other scopes I have a lot of background noise and the only time I use the DS2072 is late at night after everyone has gone to bed so its very quiet. It may all be in my head but for the most part it isn't to distracting.

I really dislike the scope probes. I find that the hook connector pieces is easy to fall off leaving me looking at my measurement scratching my head and then realizing that I am not measuring anything.

I also noticed that the power button glows (fades on/off) when the unit isn't powered on. although it is cool at first I can see this distracting if I kept the scope on in my living room while watching a movie or something. A software option to turn this feature on/off would be great so that when its off the light doesn't come on for users who don't want it to.

I have also been in contact with Chris Armstrong from Rigol NA. Hes been great. I have spoken with him over the phone and I have also exchanged emails and he is been quick to respond. My distributor originally got me in touch with him and I have no real complaints with the service I have been given (so far ).

I have also experienced the exact same issues that Sparky has regarding the new firmware download.

[zibadun]

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

Very nice sparky, glad your scope is Ok. What a day!

[flyback]

Greetings Everyone!

I'm a new kid on the block, new to the forum, and just received a DS2102 direct from Rigol on 11/30.  Great scope, even as I'm becoming familiar with its layout and functionality.  After reading so many posts, thanks to all for the "free education".  Quite a bunch of great folks on the forum, and thanks for sharing your thoughts, experiences and tips so freely,

I do have two questions:
1)  Is Rigol responsive in answering requests for firmware updates?  Despite others on the forum receiving scopes before me, it seems I have the original firmware: 00.00.01.  I was surprised about this, but so be it.  Rigol's website does not appear to point to any f/w downloads.
2) And from the "Gee I Wish I Had Read More Forum Posts" department, I wiped out my trials when doing a self-cal.  Strangely enough, they seems to re-appear from time to time, but the logic of WHEN they re-appear escapes me!   

Finally, thanks to Dave for offering this forum.  I just recently discovered Dave's Blog and I am thoroughly enjoying his reviews, teardowns, and "rants".  Somehow, he always leaves me smarter and smiling by the time I get to the end of a video.  With his own special style of delivery, even my wife looks forward to watching him!

Again, thanks to all ... I'm enjoying the ride!

[marmad]

1)  Is Rigol responsive in answering requests for firmware updates?  Despite others on the forum receiving scopes before me, it seems I have the original firmware: 00.00.01.  I was surprised about this, but so be it.  Rigol's website does not appear to point to any f/w downloads.

Welcome to the forum... and to the group of owners of the new DS2000 series from Rigol 

To get your full version information, go to the trigger menu and set Edge, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility button combination quickly. Then check additional info under System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.

[EV]

To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.

The full version information also disappears, if you power off the scope.

[Sparky]

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

Very nice sparky, glad your scope is Ok. What a day!

Thanks zibadun! Yes, that day had its moments!!  Was so relieved at the end of it!

[Sparky]

Hi folks!

Just thought I would post an update here following my recent correspondence with Rigol NA.  I had emailed my dealer (Tequipment) to ask for a firmware update before receiving the 01.00.05 firmware revision from folks here.  My email was forwarded to Rigol NA, and I received a reply from one of their Applications Engineers who acknowledged the self-cal bug and mentioned the engineers are working on a fix.  They did not provide me with a 01.00.05 firmware update, even though I requested it specifically.  I also asked when the next firmware revision would be released, and how I can find out when it becomes available, but both questions went unanswered.    It seems Rigol NA are specifically no longer releasing 01.00.05 (publicly, or on request), and that they are waiting for their engineers to wrap-up the next firmware revision.  Currently I'm waiting (hoping...) for a new trial license code.

I will update with more news as I hear it!

[jeeff47]

Hi Sparky,

I also spoke with Rigol NA. They also informed me that there engineers are working on a new release but were unsure of when that will occur. They may have not provided you with the firmware because they provided me with it and are now familiar with the fact that loading it through the menus is unsuccessful. I would also agree that they are probably waiting for a newer release.

They did ship me out a new unit overnight (which was great), but I am finding that the new unit does have a more stiff power button which is concerning (almost thought it was sticky and not popping back out). I also noticed that the calibration is a little off Measuring an average DC voltage of 3.43V on the new guy. My Fluke meter says 3.30V and I ended up doing the flash reload during startup and got the old unit up again (with no trails) and its reading 3.39V Source is 3.3V (maybe I am just being picky.

I ma shipping the old unit out first thing in the AM back to Rigol NA. I was impressed that they got me a unit so quickly (with the updated firmware already installed.

 

[Sparky]

Hi Sparky,

I also spoke with Rigol NA. They also informed me that there engineers are working on a new release but were unsure of when that will occur. They may have not provided you with the firmware because they provided me with it and are now familiar with the fact that loading it through the menus is unsuccessful. I would also agree that they are probably waiting for a newer release.

They did ship me out a new unit overnight (which was great), but I am finding that the new unit does have a more stiff power button which is concerning (almost thought it was sticky and not popping back out). I also noticed that the calibration is a little off Measuring an average DC voltage of 3.43V on the new guy. My Fluke meter says 3.30V and I ended up doing the flash reload during startup and got the old unit up again (with no trails) and its reading 3.39V Source is 3.3V (maybe I am just being picky.

I ma shipping the old unit out first thing in the AM back to Rigol NA. I was impressed that they got me a unit so quickly (with the updated firmware already installed.

That's a good point; Rigol probably wont send out revised firmware if it is likely to cause them headaches if the update is not correctly applied...which can be a little tricky for the newcomer to get right (despite all the warnings/comments advising how to do it properly!)

One issue with your calibration test could be your vertical resolution settings (volts/div).  My understanding of how this works (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) is the vertical scale is limited to 8-bits, and thus 2^8 = 256 quantization levels.  The vertical scale is 8 divisions high, and so the quantization error (smallest increment of voltage that can be differentiated) is 8 * (volts/div setting)  / 256.

So, the larger your volts/div, the larger the quantization error.  Depending on the setting you used --- and especially if you used different settings on each of your tests --- it might explain the difference in your measurements.  This is why, in my second test, I used the smallest volts/div setting possible (500 uV/div) to reduce quantization error; naturally I had to use a similarly small input (2 mV).

I would expect the Fluke to have a way higher resolution ADC, but I haven't researched that.

[flyback]

Thanks to marmad, EV, Sparky, and jeeff47.

Using the "secret handshake" (special thanks to marmad & EV), I have confirmed the versioning for this scope received direct from Rigol on 11/30.
s/w ver: 00.00.01.00.02
h/w ver: 1.1.0.0
FPGA SPU:03.01.02
FPGA WPU: 00.06.00
FPGA CCU: 12.29.00
FPGA MCU: 00.05

Today I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong of Rigol confirming that an updated f/w is pending (but with no predicted timeframe for release).  In the interim, Rigol is not offering either a public nor beta release.  Likewise, there is not a current fix to safely return the option trials which I wiped out when doing the self-cal.  I guess it's time to practice some patience!

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and comments.

[marmad]

That's a good point; Rigol probably wont send out revised firmware if it is likely to cause them headaches if the update is not correctly applied...which can be a little tricky for the newcomer to get right (despite all the warnings/comments advising how to do it properly!)

The bug with updating the firmware is in the OLDER version - i.e. the one that's already installed on most people's scope (01.00.02) - not the newer version. So even if people don't upgrade to version 01.00.05 (or Rigol doesn't send out that version) the problem (of having to update via BOOT instead of the menus) will remain for everyone with 01.00.02 with the next publicly released version they try to install.

Today I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong of Rigol confirming that an updated f/w is pending (but with no predicted timeframe for release).

Well, I'm not sure what version Chris Armstrong is talking about, but your version (01.00.02) is at least one version behind what many of us are using (01.00.05).

Likewise, there is not a current fix to safely return the option trials which I wiped out when doing the self-cal.  I guess it's time to practice some patience!

I - and at least a few other DS2000 owners on this forum - have gotten replacement trial licenses from Rigol (or their dealers) because ours were expired prematurely by the self-cal bug. You should get this as well - in fact, getting 36 hours (2160 minutes) of free trial licenses is part of the package you paid for - and I would threaten to return the scope if you don't receive it. It's ridiculously easy and virtually cost-free for Rigol to give you this (they just generate a key based on your serial number) - and negligent if they don't replace a feature you paid for but lost due to their error (the bug).

[marmad]

So, the larger your volts/div, the larger the quantization error.  Depending on the setting you used --- and especially if you used different settings on each of your tests --- it might explain the difference in your measurements.  This is why, in my second test, I used the smallest volts/div setting possible (500 uV/div) to reduce quantization error; naturally I had to use a similarly small input (2 mV).

I would expect the Fluke to have a way higher resolution DAC, but I haven't researched that.

Yes, absolutely - and not only that, but in reality, oscilloscopes have NEVER been great measurement devices (although they've certainly gotten better at it over the years - and easier to read with DSOs). They were conceived of more as a way to visualize what was happening in an invisible realm - and not so much for getting precise measurement data - as anyone who's tried to count grid lines on a tiny CRT quickly realized.

[zibadun]

. They were conceived of more as a way to visualize what was happening in an invisible realm - and not so much for getting precise measurement data - as anyone who's tried to count grid lines on a tiny CRT quickly realized.

I'm very  impressed by the boat load of waveform measurements when you push 'Show all'. And an old 465 tek is as well

[marmad]

I'm very  impressed by the boat load of waveform measurements when you push 'Show all'. And an old 465 tek is as well

Absolutely - and just one of the ways that a digital scope seduces you to turn a blind eye to it's blind time

[jeeff47]

When I originally contacted Rigol about the Self Cal bug. They informed me they were not able to do anything about it aside from giving me the code to permanently unlock the scope features or to return it to Rigol for a replacement. In the end I ended up getting the replacement (the long way around).
Unfortunately I would assume that they wont be giving the "Trail" code out any longer to try to bypass people trying to abuse the system and if the customer really wanted the features unlocked again then they can return the unit as being defective.

Honestly, I would think it would be easier to just give the code out and once they generate it log it in a database at there facility so that you get "one free pass".

Marmad did you get your code from Rigol NA? have you expired it yet? If so have you tried the code a second time, and did it work?


When speaking with Chris he mentioned that the Rigol team was working on a new firmware that would correct/prevent the self cal bug. The vibe I got was that the code would prevent the self cal from erasing the trails and anybody who had already accidently erased them then the trails would be restored. I didn't get any additional information regarding any other improvements they might through into that release.
 

[Sparky]

The bug with updating the firmware is in the OLDER version - i.e. the one that's already installed on most people's scope (01.00.02) - not the newer version. So even if people don't upgrade to version 01.00.05 (or Rigol doesn't send out that version) the problem (of having to update via BOOT instead of the menus) will remain for everyone with 01.00.02 with the next publicly released version they try to install.

That makes sense; seems everyone getting scopes with revision 01.00.02 firmware is going to have to go through the BOOT update method at least once.

I - and at least a few other DS2000 owners on this forum - have gotten replacement trial licenses from Rigol (or their dealers) because ours were expired prematurely by the self-cal bug. You should get this as well - in fact, getting 36 hours (2160 minutes) of free trial licenses is part of the package you paid for - and I would threaten to return the scope if you don't receive it. It's ridiculously easy and virtually cost-free for Rigol to give you this (they just generate a key based on your serial number) - and negligent if they don't replace a feature you paid for but lost due to their error (the bug).

I sent Rigol my serial number, but so far no new trial serial (only a "were truly sorry" apology).  I've now asked specifically for new trial serial, and mentioned that it was part of the package I paid for.  In response, I received an automated "out of the office" reply...  This issue would be considered a manufacture defect and I should be able to exchange the scope at no cost.  I'm tempted to contact my dealer and ask for an exchange.  If I don't hear positive news by tomorrow morning, I may go this route.

[marmad]

Unfortunately I would assume that they wont be giving the "Trail" code out any longer to try to bypass people trying to abuse the system

I'm not exactly sure how this could help people abuse the system - unless there is a bug in restarting the trial options (which is a possibility). If you mean 'abuse the system' in the sense of trying to crack their options code; in order to create a key generator, you have to get inside the scope's firmware and see exactly what math it's performing on the code in order to reverse engineer it. If you were dead set on trying to do this, you could just buy one of the option packages and use that key.

Marmad did you get your code from Rigol NA? have you expired it yet? If so have you tried the code a second time, and did it work?

I got my replacement trial license from my dealer - who requested it from Rigol for me (BTW, it took a little time to finally get it). It seems to me that this is a better approach to getting it - since the dealer has more pull with Rigol than an individual buyer - and of course, you have more pull with your dealer than you would with Rigol - since they are the ones who will have to deal initially with an exchange or a return.  I'm in the middle of house renovations, so I've had no time for the scope lately - so I haven't used my replacement license yet (I would want to have as much time as possible with the options). But my dealer tells me that it will reset the options to the 2160 minutes - and will only work once. But maybe there is an as-yet-unreported bug which allows the replacement trial license code to be reused over and over - but I've heard privately from at least one member that it didn't work a second time.

Anyway, this got me thinking about in which regions Rigol (or it's affiliated dealers) are dispensing either the 01.00.05 firmware or replacement trial licenses. I scoured the various threads here for info - and the first post I found referencing the 01.00.05 firmware was this one: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg155862/#msg155862 - which mentions Rigol EU. I'm also located in the EU, so it makes me wonder if this version has not been officially released for NA. Would anyone who has gotten either an official copy of the 01.00.05 firmware (I don't mean from another board member) or a replacement trial license care to share where they're located? Perhaps the info can help other users leverage their respective dealers/Rigol into getting them as well.

But as I, and other members here, have pointed out - there are bugs (aside from the self-cal one) in the firmware (both 01.00.02 and 01.00.05) that appear to effect the appearance and disappearance of the trial options. I'm afraid, unfortunately, that Rigol is putting more energy into trying to squash these in their next official firmware release than into fixing what I consider to be the real problems or adding new features. But we'll see what happens.

[drieg]

I got my replacement trial license from my dealer - who requested it from Rigol for me (BTW, it took a little time to finally get it). It seems to me that this is a better approach to getting it - since the dealer has more pull with Rigol than an individual buyer - and of course, you have more pull with your dealer than you would with Rigol - since they are the ones who will have to deal initially with an exchange or a return.

True, better to ask your dealer, they should be able to apply for a new trial code for you.

... I haven't used my replacement license yet (I would want to have as much time as possible with the options). But my dealer tells me that it will reset the options to the 2160 minutes - and will only work once....

Actually it will add 2160 minutes to the current count

But as I, and other members here, have pointed out - there are bugs (aside from the self-cal one) in the firmware (both 01.00.02 and 01.00.05) that appear to effect the appearance and disappearance of the trial options. I'm afraid, unfortunately, that Rigol is putting more energy into trying to squash these in their next official firmware release than into fixing what I consider to be the real problems or adding new features. But we'll see what happens.

As for the new firmware, Rigol says:
"R&D still haven't release the new version and we have made effort to promote this progress. I believe it will be released in this month."