East Tester ET4410&ET4510 Desktop LCR Meter

[Martin72]

Hi,

When the R- and C-values in the circuit around U301 are the same, so it´s very possible, it´s the same IC.
Once again, make a hi-res pic of your pcb, so I would check it against mine..

[SHTechnics]

I'll do that tomorrow 

[SHTechnics]

Ok, already took some pics   

[Kleinstein]

Hi,

When the R- and C-values in the circuit around U301 are the same, so it´s very possible, it´s the same IC.
Once again, make a hi-res pic of your pcb, so I would check it against mine..

With SMD caps it is usually hard to read the values.
The overall circuit seems to be the same, but there could be slower / lower cost amplifiers. A slower amplifier may just need a slightly different capacitance at a few points. There is still a good chance they use the same parts.

From the pictures shown the 2 versions of U301 look at least somewhat different: the one from the 4410 does not have the deep impression near pin 1, that is visible even after removing the lables. This could be just a different batch or factory (AFAIK there is no 2nd source, but TI may still use different factories for packaging), but could also mean a different part.

[Martin72]

Additional, the two brown caps on the pcbs, they look different concerning their dimensions.

[Kleinstein]

I would not worry so much about the brown caps - these are often X7R and not accurate anyway, but more like decoupling. This size does not tell that much about the capacitance.  A small PCB revision could be done to use smaller package decoupling capacitors and the 2 meters to compare seem to use slight difference PCB revision, that could be just from the data, not necessary to do with different models.

The relevant capacitors are more like the small ones, usually C0G type and usually the more lighter color. Here again the mechanical size does not tell much. 1 pF and 1000 pF may look identical.

[Martin72]

I would not worry so much about the brown caps - these are often X7R

No, not the smd ones, the two foil types C100 and C103..

[Kleinstein]

The foil capacitors look similar size, just slightly different form factor / lead spacing. This could be just a question of availability.  Chances are they are some 1 µF PP caps and the capacity could noted on them in a poorly readable way (laser markings). 

[SHTechnics]

The C100 and C109 caps are both marked with "CBB22 474j250V" so a 0,47µF PP film

[mawyatt]

Could these ET44XX devices be copies of the earlier mentioned older 1657 Digibridge, which also used 0.47uF film caps?

Best,

[Martin72]

The C100 and C109 caps are both marked with "CBB22 474j250V" so a 0,47µF PP film

Its C103, but here too, 470nF.

[SHTechnics]

Oops correct, it was partially covered

[SHTechnics]

Could these ET44XX devices be copies of the earlier mentioned older 1657 Digibridge, which also used 0.47uF film caps?

Best,

They are completely different. I don't have detailed photos of the 1657 but it's clear they are no copies.

[Kleinstein]

The ET44xx are not a direct copy of the digi-bridge, but the general concept behind the meter can very well be the same:
Generate a sine wave with a DDS generator and than measure phase sensitive with a resistor in series and switching to several voltages to test.

With only 2 relay at the drive and detect side, there my be only 2 ranges, though some additional range switching with CMOS switches is possible.
With a 12 Bit ADC inside the µC, there is no need to do a dual slope ADC from discrete parts.

[Martin72]

though some additional range switching with CMOS switches is possible.

There are a lot of switches on the pcb...
Someday, I´ll measure the paths while changing the ranges, to see what happen where and when.
But first I want to continue to test and report.
Hopefully soon, the last weekends were fullpacked with other things...
Except the communication thing on the ET4410, which I normally want test it at last.
But I´ve tested it today, partly:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-et4410/msg4058326/#msg4058326

[Martin72]

Today I´ve got the software and a SCPI command list from East Tester.
Software don´t work, but more interesting is the command list:

FYI

Martin

[Martin72]

Back again...
I had sold my first ET4410 to be able to buy a (defective) Hioki LCR 5Mhz device.
Even then with the thought to buy me one again, for various reasons and then actually a 4510 (continuous test frequencies).
But the 4510 costs just under 500, this 4410 I have now bought for just under 280.
The accuracy is the same, probably the hardware is also the same.
Let's see if I play around with making it a 4510 in the future.
Anyway, now the second 4410 is here and before I take it apart for the schematic, first test it.
I took a 1µF MKP today, the values are remarkably stable at 1khz.
Almost perfect, too perfect...
More component tests will follow, plus a comparison with our ST2830 at work.
I had also remembered that the ET4410 has a SCPI instruction set, I had tried that briefly earlier.
For this I downloaded the "Test Controller" software from user HKJ to use it as a command prompt for now.
But there is already more, the ET4410 is already listed there and what I tried also works.
Very nice.
More soon.
If there are questions, ask.

[TheDefpom]

Thats right Test Controller has a definition file, I wrote it :-)

Nice to see it actually works on the 4410, I could only test it on the 4401

[Martin72]

Here again, now in this thread, the scpi command list from East Tester...

Today I had made some measurements with different capacitors and wrote down the results to be able to compare the measurements on the ST2830 with exactly the same capacitors afterwards.
Measurements were taken after min 30min warm-up time with subsequent calibration (open), the test fixture from Sourcetronic was used.
Resistors I think are not so exciting, I had tried a few 0.1%, all values were in tolerance, regardless of frequency.*
Coils I have unfortunately only one...Let's see if I can find some at work to take home.
Capacitors were:
47nF FKP, 470nF Wima Snubber Cap, 1µF MKP Visaton, 47µF/250V electrolytic capacitor. 1000µ/25V electrolytic capacitor.
Let's see how the ST2830 does.
While in most cases the ET4410 showed the capacitance stable, the sub-parameters are sometimes jumping around like crazy.
Will know tomorrow.

*) The ET4410 has no DC function for R measurement and also electrolytic capacitor.

[Martin72]

Today testing the same caps with the ST2830.
At 100Hz and 1Khz the two are very close, at 10khz and up to 1µF everything is also good, with the electrolytic capacitors the values diverge from the frequency, whereby I cannot say which of the two is "right".
Also the secondary values are different from 10khz, they are partly displayed fluctuating.
Now I am still missing chokes...

[Martin72]

Now I am still missing chokes...

No longer..

Bought a DMM reference board from welectron, with L/C option:

https://www.welectron.com/DMMCheck-Plus-Multimeter-Calibration-Reference

Now I have something really comparable and will use it on the ST2830 LCR at work when I get a chance.
Today just measured with the ET4410, with 10khz because the references were measured with 10khz.
The results are not that bad, apart from the "outliers" in the coil measurement - although that does not matter in practice, so the result is to be considered good.
What struck me, the ET4410 seems to have problems with the auto-ranging, presumably close to a threshold.
Because partly the displayed measurement was unsteady and jumped e.g. from Ohm to Kiloohm.
Also, I do not quite trust the Kelvin test leads, but these are rather small "worries".
All in all, a good, very good result.
As for the primary values.
The D, Q and ESR values left out, that is another topic which belongs illuminated.

[w.v.s.]

Hello,

for those who want to do frequency sweeps with this device: It seems to make sense to give it at least one second settling time after changing the frequency before taking values. This sweep was done with the slow speed setting. Settling time may change with this. DCR measurements are extra-slow, but you won't change frequency in that mode anyway 

[Martin72]

Speaking of frequency steps, I would be interested to know if you can hack the ET4410 to the ET4510, which offers test frequencies up to 100khz in 1Hz steps...
I'm afraid the only way to find out is to buy a 4510....Hmmm...

[w.v.s.]

Speaking of frequency steps, I would be interested to know if you can hack the ET4410 to the ET4510, which offers test frequencies up to 100khz in 1Hz steps...
I'm afraid the only way to find out is to buy a 4510....Hmmm...

An other chance was the manufacturer publishing a firmware-update. I did not see one so far.

[thm_w]

I tried to make sense of the mix of model numbers and added some random meters at the end. ET = east tester, RS = Ruoshui:

10+ step for frequency, 6 step test voltage (2V), 1mV step bias voltage (1.5V):
RS 4090A 10kHz $180
RS 4090B 20kHz $209
RS 4090C 100kHz $226

ET 4401 10kHz $195
ET 4402 20kHz $232
ET 4410 100kHz $245 ($190?)

1Hz step frequency, 1mV step test voltage (2V), 1mV step bias voltage (1.5V):
RS 4091A 10kHz
RS 4091B 20kHz
RS 4091C 100kHz $265

ET 4501 10kHz $322
ET 4502 20kHz
ET 4510 100kHz $354

OTHERS:
1mHz step frequency, 1mV step test voltage (2V), +/-2V +/-20mA bias:
ET3501 100kHz $580

40 step frequency, 8 step voltage (1V):
LCR-106X 200kHz $335 (similar to LCR-5010?), chinese only display?

10Hz step frequency, 10 step test voltage (1V), no bias:
NJ100A 100kHz $137
NJ200A 200kHz $195
NJ300A 300kHz $255

CKT2830 100kHz $365

RuoShui (RS) is undercutting East Tester prices, especially on the high end parts. They are also sold under the Victor name with the same part number (4090). From a glance from the teardowns they are all the same hardware inside.
Pricing of the RuoShui ones would say that what is suspected in the thread, internally all models are likely the same. Would just need to reflash the firmware.