Author Topic: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge  (Read 8475 times)

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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2024, 08:25:55 pm »
Why is the Rs value so far off between the two devices?
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Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #151 on: August 14, 2024, 08:30:50 pm »
This is the case with the capacitor and I can't explain it to you at the moment.
In addition, both are wrong.
While the 82 and 86mOhms are correct for the choke, the capacitor would be in the three-digit kilo-Ohm range.


Edit forget that thing, Rs should be equal to ESR.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2024, 08:34:04 pm by Martin72 »
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Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #152 on: August 14, 2024, 08:53:51 pm »
Kemet has a nice simulation tool for their capacitors.
Both LCRs measured the impedance of just under 160kOhm correctly, but the ESR is 3.3kOhm.

https://ksim3.kemet.com/capacitor-simulation?pn=C1206C100FGGACTU&disty=mouser
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #153 on: August 14, 2024, 09:11:54 pm »
If the chart is correct, both meters failed ESR (Rs) measurement. Unless the cap is faulty, and then at least one still failed. 😉
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Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #154 on: August 14, 2024, 09:23:46 pm »
You can assume that the manufacturer's simulation is correct.
The two show fantasy values, for whatever reason, but we have often discussed the subject of ESR.
At 1Mhz, the actual test frequency for this value, the ESR would be around 1kOhm....
What I don't really understand is that the primary value and the impedance are measured correctly, but some secondary parameters, as can be seen now, are not.
Whether this is really different in more expensive devices....
It's about time you got the Hioki up and running.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #155 on: August 14, 2024, 09:26:16 pm »
It's about time you got the Hioki up and running.

lol, I wish. Parts from China. The LCD might be here by Friday, but no idea when the touch panel will show up. Hopefully within the next week. In the meantime, I'm just messing with the front panel. Unfortunately, the sun was spotty today so I don't know if there will be any more improvement there. I'll find out in a couple hours when I check it out.

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Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #156 on: August 15, 2024, 08:43:02 pm »
So I have now ordered the test fixture from Sourcetronic for us.
I'm curious to see what it looks like inside, after all it's almost three times as expensive as mine from Aliexpress.
But that's nothing compared to the R&S model, which looks exactly the same.
They want 1500€ for it.... ;)
The tireless people at ET got in touch again today and explained why the Im/Vm display does not reflect what is really there.
They didn't know that I had finished with it, thanks to the explanation in the ST manual.
I was tempted to torment the poor guys with the question about the Rs(ESR), but left it alone, as I had given myself the answer.
I assume that the devices (ET as well as ST) are no longer able to display the “correct” ESR value with a 10pF capacitor due to their design.
I would be interested to know @Mike whether your much more expensive Hioki does it better.
Determining the ESR (Rs) value for a 10pF capacitor at 100kHz is probably a sporting task.

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Online mawyatt

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2024, 12:23:41 pm »
@ Martin,

Here you go. Random selected 10pF C0G/NP0 0805 and 0603 chip caps, measured at 100KHz.

Note: Our setup has changed as we've added Power Line Chokes per Hioki recommendation to our IM3536 and TH2830 (actually added to all our instruments individually).
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online mawyatt

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #158 on: August 16, 2024, 12:52:36 pm »
Here's the Tonghui TH2830.

BTW, these test were quickly done without proper instrument warm up (10 minutes).

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #159 on: August 16, 2024, 05:48:06 pm »
Thank you Mike!
Do you have the data sheets or ESR values for the capacitors used according to the specification?
It would be interesting to see how far they are from the measured values.
I will be measuring values with larger capacitors over the weekend, but with the ET3502.
Because I still need pictures of the running operation, I have put the ET3502 up for sale for a ridiculous 499€ (because of the non-functioning Ethernet).
I am curious when the test fixture from sourcetronic will arrive.
Oh well, as for the specifications (Kelvin clips) I haven't heard back from them yet.... ;)
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Online mawyatt

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2024, 11:25:11 pm »
The 0603 is a Walsin Tech 0603N100F500CT, can't recall what the 0805 was. These are just generic C0G caps, nothing really special.

Must remember that at 100KHz a 10pF cap has a Z of 159.155K ohms (why the fixture shielding is so important)!!

BTW if you really want to compare results with the ST2830 and ET35 try some TDK and/or Kyocera/AVX 1, 10, 100 & 1000pF C0G/NP0 0.1% 0603, 0805 and 1206 types. This should provide a good baseline to work from.



Best,
« Last Edit: August 16, 2024, 11:43:28 pm by mawyatt »
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online mawyatt

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #161 on: August 17, 2024, 12:10:33 am »
For leaded capacitors, smaller values for Polystyrene and Mica are very stable, larger values Polypropylene are good.

Here's an example of what we mean about shielding, this is a Tonghui TH26048A Leaded LCR Meter Fixture. Note the shield between the H and L sides, the lack of paint on the case/cover inside and the threaded brass insert for cover connection.

This quality fixture gives excellent repeatability with various leaded components, small and large Z values :-+

Best
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #162 on: August 21, 2024, 10:28:34 pm »
My assumption that the bandwidth of the ET35 series is determined by the firmware (and the hardware is always the same) has been confirmed by ET almost involuntarily. ;)
Since I had not yet received a discount on the defective Ethernet interface on the ET3502, I offered to give them the firmware that increases the bandwidth.
They denied this, saying that the internal calibration would then no longer be correct....Aha, so the case was clear. 8)
At first I was tempted to write, give it to me anyway, because the internal calibration is described in the manual.
However, you would need inductances and capacitances with a tolerance of max. 0.02% - never ever... :scared:
If I were to buy these references for the different measuring ranges, I would be out a higher 5-digit sum.
No thanks... ;)
What remains is the realization that the bandwidth could be increased to 1Mhz via software, but at the cost of having to recalibrate.

I will refrain from doing so.
The next message was that my suggestions for improvement regarding new features will only be incorporated in a new model series.
So I hope that they will at least tackle the bug with the screenshot function.
Over the next few weeks I will measure more components and compare them with the next best LCR, in this case with the ST2830 at work, and then report back here.
But even so, I can already say that the ET35 is a good device in terms of its basic functions.
Considering the price, a very good one.
I paid a total of 950€ for the ET3503.
For this you get a large, easy-to-read display with a 6-digit display for both the main and secondary parameters.
Internal and external DC bias function up to 40V.
Stepless measuring frequency up to 300kHz.
Numerous correction options.
You can see where you can get a 300kHz device for the money, I can tell you in advance, you won't get one.
These are the advantages, the disadvantages can be summarized in one sentence:
The software is Rigol-style... 8)
And with the same prospect of improvements as the “role model”. ;)

If you like “hard facts” and are looking for a higher maximum measuring frequency and external bias function at the lowest possible price, the ET35 is the right choice.
I'm currently struggling to give a clear recommendation, but what I can say for sure is that the ET35 series is the best you can get for up to €1000.
A little above that is the TH2830 series, for a little more the ST2830 series (same design, but better support).
The series has no Ethernet connection and external DC bias input, as well as a significantly smaller display.
But if 100kHz (or 200kHz “cracked”) is enough, you get a device that is better processed and generally gives the impression that it can do everything it has, quasi the “Siglent” among the LCR meters. ;)
That's my interim conclusion.
The ET3502 is for sale, I will keep the ET3503, even if another LCR meter comes along.
And that will come, because my series of tests between all the “purely” Chinese products has taught me one thing.
I want a “final” device from a renowned brand manufacturer with appropriate support.
And depending on where I can get it relatively cheapest, it will be a Hioki IM3536 or an R&S LCX device.
I won't go below that, I've “seen it all” with the ET35 and the TH/ST28XX.


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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: East Tester ET3502 LCR-Bridge
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2024, 11:30:18 pm »
quasi the “Siglent” among the LCR meters. ;)

Quasi is correct. In terms of hardware quality, the TH/ST stuff is excellent. But...

The firmware and support suck, unless you go through SourceTronic, and then the support is awesome. Fixtures are generally good too, and cost much less than...the exact same rebranded hardware from other bigger brands. 😉
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 


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