Fluke 8846A Discontinued. Is it worth it to pay higher prices?

[HighVoltage]

The Fluke 8846A did not even have a good looking screen, when it came out
The Keithley DMM6500 probably has the most attractive high resolution screen of the DMM in this class.

[Echelon]

This may or may not be what you want, but at least have a look:

https://www.bkprecision.com/products/multimeters/5493C-6-1-2-bench-digital-multimeter.html

On paper it looks like it ticks all my boxes.  The thing that bothers me----and maybe you can help put this to rest----is that in my mind, BK Precision is of a lower quality and caliber.  I'm not sure where I have that impression from.  I noticed that BK Precision has a place in the non-standards/safety compliant thread.  Am I completely way off with this? 

Also, not that the Fluke scores well here, but how is the repairability of the 5493C? 

[Echelon]

Yowser!  No advance notice (AFAIK) and no replacement! I wonder if they just ran out of Cyclones or what--I'm sure it was due for an update and respin at the very least.  If Fluke decides not to come out with any direct replacement, that would be an indication that the company is headed downhill, IMO.  Perhaps they just ran out of the old model before the new one was ready, or maybe they are introducing a new model at a lower price point and want to clear the old inventory first. 

Forgive me if this is a NOOB question, but what is a Cyclone?  Are Cyclones a proprietary ASICs Fluke is/was using in their meters?

What makes you say that Fluke might be heading down hill without a replacement model?  Have you seen other signs of this decline?  I'm curious to hear your thoughts. 

[free_electron]

Fluke and Keithley are both part of Danaher.

nope. danaher went bye-bye.

Tektronix owns Keithley
Fortive owns Tektronix and Fluke (and others , non test equipment)
Fortive itself has spun out of Danaher but has nothing to do with danaher anymore

Fluke and Keithley still belong to the same company so I think Fluke leave the bench meter market to Keithley (Tektronix got out of the meter market all together). I think Keithley is better suited to compete with siglent etc..

tektronix was never in the meter market... whatever little they had were rebadged fluke , tenma and metex

[nctnico]

So what would you say in regards to the Keysight 34461A or 34465A?  The problem with the 34461A is the low-end of the DCI measurements.  However, the 34465A is quite a bit more expensive.

I have the Keysight 34461A but nowadays I'd very probably go for the DMM6500 . The latter has several areas where it is better in terms of range. Either way; if you want to buy a high end DMM then Keysight or Tektronix/Fluke/Keithley (for all intents and purpose one and the same company) are the way to go.

[bdunham7]

On paper it looks like it ticks all my boxes.  The thing that bothers me----and maybe you can help put this to rest----is that in my mind, BK Precision is of a lower quality and caliber.  I'm not sure where I have that impression from.  I noticed that BK Precision has a place in the non-standards/safety compliant thread.  Am I completely way off with this?

BK Precision is a variety pack of a company.  They have been around quite some time and they have everything from legacy products that they designed long ago to outright rebadges.  A lot of their stuff is somewhere in the middle, either custom built from their design or a customized rebadge.  The result is that they vary (IMO) from a solid A-brand to a C+ brand in a few cases.  Some of their products are top-notch, like DC loads and PSUs that don't blow up when charging batteries.  They also have some very old design products that they are still selling--which is good in some cases.  It just depends on what you are buying.  They also are pretty decent about support, although they simply don't have detailed technical information on a lot of their recent products.

 I think the noncompliant handheld meters were built by CEM, a well known not-so-great supplier to discounters everywhere.  Their bench meters (LCR and DMM) are made by Tonghui and are typically pretty good at a very good price.  The 5493C is new and I haven't seen one yet in person.  My impression is that it won't be quite as good as the DMM6500, especially when it comes to the current ranges and extended features, but it has a straightforward press-the-button operation style that you seem to want.
 

Also, not that the Fluke scores well here, but how is the repairability of the 5493C?

The Fluke 8846A is an interesting case in that while it seems to be utterly unrepairable in both my experience and that of those far more skilled than I ( https://xdevs.com/fix/f8846a/ ), it is also nearly bulletproof if you don't physically abuse it or leave the display on 24/7 at full brightness.  Every one that I've seen not working has looked rough.  The one thing that can be fixed is the Front/Rear switch, anything else seems impossible.  After spending some time and despair on a few, I think there may be an issue with mechanically induced failures inside the PCB below the outguard FPGA.  Electrically they seem to be pretty robust, although I did see one that had components blown off the board from what probably was way too much voltage applied to the rear terminals.

As far as repairing BK Precision/Tonghui bench meters, I'm 2 for 2.  There's no documentation or schematics, but so far I haven't seen any part numbers scrubbed off or anything like that.  They seem to be mostly COTS parts internally.  So unless they've changed their philosophy I suspect that repairability will be difficult but maybe not impossible, which is about as good as it gets these days.  Even the company probably doesn't service them at the board level--their 3 year warranty and fixed-fee repair service may just be unit replacements.  Maybe display boards, case parts, etc are available but that's going to be it. 

Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you one, just to make you aware of it.

[Kleinstein]

The cyclone is a FPGA that is used in the Fluke 8846, especially the name for a FPGA family. So not a Fluke specific part, but a part Fluke needs to build the DMM. The Fluke specific part is the program / firmware for the FPGA.  With such an old design it would not make much sense to change the design to just use a newer and better available FPGA to do the same job.  This would need a new PCB and if done right new tests to make sure that things like the INL is not severely effected.  So if the FPGA is no longer available this would pretty much mean stop of production.  A upgrade to a different FPGA is possible and was done for other meters, but the 8846 was due to go obsolete anyway and AFAIK there are not unique features that make it hard to replace.

The question is if Fluke would offer a direct replacement or consider the DMM6500, Keithly2100 and DMM7510 as sufficient to cover most of the market.
With alternatives available from Keithley they may not plan for a direct replacement and this does not really mean much for the brand as a whole. They may just shift that market segment more to the Keithley brand in the same holding. Another possiblity is they have a replacement, but not yet ready.

Fluke still has the 8858 as a high end bench meter, though not as a more normal bench meter but more something for a cal lab and to complement the calibrators.

[bdunham7]

Forgive me if this is a NOOB question, but what is a Cyclone?  Are Cyclones a proprietary ASICs Fluke is/was using in their meters?

Not a proprietary ASIC, the Cyclone is an FPGA and the 8846A uses two of them (one inguard, one outguard) to run the meter.  The original Cyclone that Fluke uses was introduced in 2002 and I think they are up to Cyclone 10 or something.  It would be like having a current production device that still uses a Core2 Duo and Windows XP.  They (the original model Fluke used) were still available in single-unit quantities a few years ago when I checked, but perhaps they've dried up.

What makes you say that Fluke might be heading down hill without a replacement model?  Have you seen other signs of this decline?  I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

I don't mean that the whole company is going to collapse or that you should dump your Fortive stock, but just that if they aren't putting any R&D into this area, it means there won't be products for us to buy.  Fluke's industrial and calibration business is booming AFAIK, so the only reason for them to abandon this segment is either short term profit improvement or lack of capacity because their engineers retired and they didn't hire new ones in this department.  So not replacing the model--even with an 8846B that is the same thing except a TFT display and a respun board with chips that aren't two decades old--seems like a sort of beginning of the end to me.

[nctnico]

IMHO you got this wrong. You shouldn't see Fluke, Keithley and Tektronix as different manufacturers. They are just brands from Fortive. So the DMM6500 is just as much a Fluke as the DMMs that previously got sold under the Fluke brand. It looks like Fortive is organising the branding so Tektronix is for oscilloscopes and general test equipment, Keithley for the high accuracy electrical equipment and Fluke for calibration (which goes far beyond electrical).

And some equipment is hard to improve. The Tektronix FCA3000 series frequency counters for example are very good today even though they have been on the market for >10 years. In some ways even better compared to what Keysight has to offer at their highest end.

[aronake]

I bought a 15 year old fluke 8845A for 350 USD last calibrated in 2012. Then needed one more bench multimeter so got a DMM6500 two month ago. The Fluke is still very accurate despite long time from calibration, around 1 off on last digit for 5V DC. The DMM6500 despite new around 11 off on last digit for 5V DC.

So happy I have both, but would easily go for DMM6500 if i could only choose one. The display possibilities much better on the DMM6500. It is much more responsive, can sample MUCH quicker, and you can build your own scan card for it for 100 USD or so.

[bdunham7]

IMHO you got this wrong. You shouldn't see Fluke, Keithley and Tektronix as different manufacturers. They are just brands from Fortive. So the DMM6500 is just as much a Fluke as the DMMs that previously got sold under the Fluke brand. It looks like Fortive is organising the branding so Tektronix is for oscilloscopes and general test equipment, Keithley for the high accuracy electrical equipment and Fluke for calibration (which goes far beyond electrical).

I don't know what is going on internally at Fluke or Fortive, but I doubt that the majority of their customers would accept that nor do I think it is consistent with their overall marketing strategy.  Just being owned or even managed doesn't automatically make the products of subsidiaries interchangeable.  Sometimes they can even compete.  Trying to switch people to the DMM6500 doesn't seem all that great of an idea since corporate customers that buy maintenance agreements and aren't worried that Keysight won't answer their calls can simply opt for the more conventional 34461A or 34465A. Of course, the bench meters not in the Datron/Wavetek-based line are a bit of a product island--not really related to anything else--so perhaps they have abandoned them, either purposefully or due to current circumstances.

And some equipment is hard to improve.

True, and that is why many customers prefer long product cycles.  IMO the 8846A could use additional current shunts and USB, but beyond that I'd think that the only changes needed are those required to make it manufacturable for another decade or so.  The DMM6500 is a different product.

[nomead]

I wonder how much Flukes are used in ATE environment. Their bench meters are provided with HPAK compatibility modes, so lazy test engineer quite likely just swaps 8846A with 34461A emulating 34401A.

[Arhigos]

IMHO you got this wrong. You shouldn't see Fluke, Keithley and Tektronix as different manufacturers. They are just brands from Fortive. So the DMM6500 is just as much a Fluke as the DMMs that previously got sold under the Fluke brand. It looks like Fortive is organising the branding so Tektronix is for oscilloscopes and general test equipment, Keithley for the high accuracy electrical equipment and Fluke for calibration (which goes far beyond electrical).

I don't know what is going on internally at Fluke or Fortive, but I doubt that the majority of their customers would accept that nor do I think it is consistent with their overall marketing strategy.  Just being owned or even managed doesn't automatically make the products of subsidiaries interchangeable.  Sometimes they can even compete.  Trying to switch people to the DMM6500 doesn't seem all that great of an idea since corporate customers that buy maintenance agreements and aren't worried that Keysight won't answer their calls can simply opt for the more conventional 34461A or 34465A. Of course, the bench meters not in the Datron/Wavetek-based line are a bit of a product island--not really related to anything else--so perhaps they have abandoned them, either purposefully or due to current circumstances.

And some equipment is hard to improve.

True, and that is why many customers prefer long product cycles.  IMO the 8846A could use additional current shunts and USB, but beyond that I'd think that the only changes needed are those required to make it manufacturable for another decade or so.  The DMM6500 is a different product.

He is right. Same thing happened when fluke acquired wavetek. For example 9100 calibrators was cannibalized by 5520 calibrators when 5800 calibrators was cannibalized by 9500 calibrators.
Making two similar products with different design is not very profitable because the more volume you build the lower it will cost for you to build each unit.


About microchip shortage - the problem isn't really that bad as you think. Other fluke products that uses Cyclone V FPGA (like thermal imagers, calibrators) for example is still being sold

[bdunham7]

He is right. Same thing happened when fluke acquired wavetek. For example 9100 calibrators was cannibalized by 5520 calibrators when 5800 calibrators was cannibalized by 9500 calibrators.
Making two similar products with different design is not very profitable because the more volume you build the lower it will cost for you to build each unit.

Fluke acquired Wavetek with no intention of continuing its product line as a separate competing brand, so yes they consolidated.  So far, I haven't seen any evidence that Fortive is consolidating the Tek/Keithley and Fluke brands.  Maybe this is the beginning of that, but as I pointed out, the DMM6500 is a different product and I would not be at all confident that customers will accept it as a replacement for the 8846A.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that or if I'm not, perhaps they will have to learn it the hard way.  Or maybe they just don't care.

About microchip shortage - the problem isn't really that bad as you think. Other fluke products that uses Cyclone V FPGA (like thermal imagers, calibrators) for example is still being sold

Cyclone V, sure.  This has Cyclone 1 from 2002 which was apparently discontinued 3 years ago.  So not a surprise to anyone at this point.  The VFD might be an issue as well.  I'm impressed that they managed to keep building them this long.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intel-Altera/EP1C12F256C8?qs=P2rvyRAZsYhlPVU3GoXd3w%3D%3D

https://www.mouser.com/PCN/Intel_Corporation_PDN_1810_Intel_Programmable_Solutions_Group_(%E2%80%9CIntel_PSG%E2%80%9D,_formerly_Altera)_is_discontinuing_the_EPC2,_Cyclone%C2%AE,_and_Stratix%C2%AEGX_product_families.pdf

[TMM]

Right now I am just using a $50 rebrand handheld multi-meter from a local hardware store.  It's designed for electricians, not electronics.  There is no microamps range.  The update time is slow and there no ability to manually range, further adding to this problem.  The backlight doesn't hold on, the meter automatically shuts down while I am tinkering with my circuits, and continuity latching is poor.

Devils advocate here - do you need need a bench multimeter?

I used to think I needed one and owned all sorts of meters over the years. Ultimately I found that the meter I used the most was a Fluke 87V and I never needed any datalogging capability for the work I do. Now the only meters I own are two 87Vs and a Fluke 233 because they were by far the quickest and easiest to use - sold all the rest. In my work, a handheld meter is a huge plus because you can bring the meter to the work, rather than bringing the work to the meter or needing super long leads.

[BeBuLamar]

Right now I am just using a $50 rebrand handheld multi-meter from a local hardware store.  It's designed for electricians, not electronics.  There is no microamps range.  The update time is slow and there no ability to manually range, further adding to this problem.  The backlight doesn't hold on, the meter automatically shuts down while I am tinkering with my circuits, and continuity latching is poor.

Devils advocate here - do you need need a bench multimeter?

I used to think I needed one and owned all sorts of meters over the years. Ultimately I found that the meter I used the most was a Fluke 87V and I never needed any datalogging capability for the work I do. Now the only meters I own are two 87Vs and a Fluke 233 because they were by far the quickest and easiest to use - sold all the rest. In my work, a handheld meter is a huge plus because you can bring the meter to the work, rather than bringing the work to the meter or needing super long leads.

If you your work need handheld meter the bench meter just won't do. Each has its own use.