Desktop DSO for hardware and firmware development of MCU systems

[Wilson__]

Please recommend for hardware/firmware MCU development

4 channels, 600 to 1400 USD

Prefer 10 inches screen

Firmware stable, minor bugs

1GSa/s 50MHz, 8 to 12 bits or higher

Decode UART, SPI, I2C

UL/IEC safety EMC approval

Optional SA channels and signal generator 

SIGLENT SDS1000X HD, Rigol or similar

[KungFuJosh]

Since you're at the price point, you should compare the SDS1000X HD to the SDS2000X Plus and see whether you prefer the 12 bits, or the other more powerful features on the Plus.

The SDS2000X Plus is the more mature scope of the two, so you're much less likely to experience any bugs. Siglent is generally good about fixing that stuff anyway tho.

[tautech]

Please recommend for hardware/firmware MCU development

I'm gunna back Josh and add, if you are to need theLA/MSO option, SPL2016 that only fits 2k and up series scopes is a professional product unlike SLA1016 that fits SDS1000X HD models.

IMO, this alone at your budget would push me to SDS2104X Plus......

[Wilson__]

Many thanks.  I have been using old tools for decades.  They served the work purpose.   

Now, wanting a new digital scope to help firmware debug and verify SPI/I2C analogue signal quality at 10MHz square wave.   These 4-ch scope decodes SPI full duplex traffic by hooking on MISO, MOSI, CLOCK ad nChipSelect, right?

I can pay the high price point if necessary.  If the low side can do those specific task, it is ok too. 

How about SDS1104X-E (Amazon Choice, first available Nov 2017) and SDS804X HD (first available April 2024)?   Would year 2017 safer bet that 6 months (teething) baby?  This forum has 40 pages on software issue on another brand 8xx/9xx.  Need to avoid that. 

[tautech]

Many thanks. I have been using old tools for decades.  They served the work purpose. 

They did but latest generation have a far bigger toolset.
While we can set up for stable triggering the trigger suite in modern scopes take this to a new level where we can configure to find Runt pulses or outta spec pulses to name just 2.

Now, wanting a new digital scope to help firmware debug and verify SPI/I2C analogue signal quality at 10MHz square wave.   These 4-ch scope decodes SPI full duplex traffic by hooking on MISO, MOSI, CLOCK and ChipSelect, right?

100%

How about SDS1104X-E (Amazon Choice, first available Nov 2017) and SDS804X HD (first available April 2024)?   Would year 2017 safer bet that 6 months (teething) baby?  This forum has 40 pages on software issue on another brand 8xx/9xx.  Need to avoid that.

SDS1104X-E is a very capable low cost DSO too however if also uses the SLA1016 MSO/LA probe set too as does SDS800X HD however these both are 7" display which for occasional use might be fine but for a substantial project 10" displays will be better.

Some little history if I may of the latest models, the GUI has been developed over some years along with the touch interface and mouse support starting IIRC in SDS5000X models when we only had the more basic features of the 1000X, 2000X and X-E models.
Whereas today the same GUI is used from 800 X HD all the way to the $ 7000A models albeit the top of the line models offer more features and much higher BW.
This allows us to sample the GUI with a $340 DSO before investing further......

[nctnico]

Problem is that both Rigol and Siglent only decode part of the signal which is on screen. With several digital channels enabled and needing zoom to force more width, you'll run out of screen space quickly. Another problem is that the packet numbering in a list display will change when more or less packets get 'in sight'.

An R&S RTB2004 is a better choice especially if your use is commercial. The RTB2004 has far less compromises (for example: decoded data can be rotated 90 degrees making far more information fit on screen) and is ideal for doing firmware / MCU debugging and it has been on the market long enough to be available on the used market. But it likely is not going to fit your budget. I have the RTM3004 (one step up from the RTB2004) which runs mostly the same software as the RTB2004 and this scope is just perfect for my professional use (which is also developing embedded firmware & hardware).

[tautech]

Problem is that both Rigol and Siglent only decode part of the signal which is on screen.

So, have 100 packets on the screen !

[coromonadalix]

better invest into a separate logic analyzer ...  you can get some powerful ones with high bandwidth

Kingst  LAxxxx
DsLogic 

Salae   too pricy

EDIT  just saw this

Maybe worth a look ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ngscopeclient-ultimate-acquisition-software-protocol-decoder-debug-tool/

[guenthert]

Problem is that both Rigol and Siglent only decode part of the signal which is on screen.

So, have 100 packets on the screen !

Hmmh, I find an oscilloscope helpful to get an idea of signal quality.  When troubleshooting a RS485 connection however, I found myself hacking together a MCU plus RS485 receiver to monitor the communication.  Same with GPIB.  Is the built-in protocol decoder more than a gimmick (much like the built-in FFT)?

[NE666]

Rigol MSO5074 all the way, imho, which is why I own one. Built-in "half decent" sig gen and LA (although you need to purchase a cable/pod for the latter).

2GS/s on all four channels together (8GS/s on single channel), can be 'liberated' easily to 350MHz, so it can handle fast content on edges. Front-end is known to be noisy but it's of no real issue to digital signal applications for MCUs etc., only for low-level analogue applications.

On offer at present with Rigol and their main distributors (about 750USD in the UK at present, inc. taxes).  No need, again imho, to up your budget for the application you describe. Save the extra for a capable external LA with good trigger and decode options.

Rigol don't have the best reputation for not releasing buggy new products (certainly not with me) but this one has been out there for a number of years and had reached the 'stable' state.

[Fungus]

Now, wanting a new digital scope to help firmware debug and verify SPI/I2C analogue signal quality at 10MHz square wave.   These 4-ch scope decodes SPI full duplex traffic by hooking on MISO, MOSI, CLOCK ad nChipSelect, right?

Yes.

They also have features to (eg.) allow you to trigger on specific data values.

I can pay the high price point if necessary.  If the low side can do those specific task, it is ok too. 

For purely digital work you should put the Rigol MSO5074 on your shortlist, too. The base model can easily be unlocked to 350Mhz and it has a lot of memory, sample rate, etc.

12 bits simply isn't needed.

Problem is that both Rigol and Siglent only decode part of the signal which is on screen.

Simply not true for most of them these days.

(check individual models, but... generally not true)

[Performa01]

Neeed to correct some clueless comments.

Just to make clear: The zoom view on a Siglent SDS2000X Plus and up is big enough compared to the small fraction of the fairly big 10" screen used for the main view, which serves as a detailed overview. There's certainly enough space for the zoom view.

And no, the list view on a Siglent always shows all captured frames in the same order and the numbering doesen't change, regardless which part is zoomed.

Attached is an old example of an SPI decoding of 245 frames, zoomed in on the last part of the stream. Main and list view show all 245 frames while the zoom view alows close inspection of any details.

[KungFuJosh]

If you have the budget to go higher than the SDS2000X Plus, then compare it with the SDS2000X HD. Either one would be a great scope for your needs, and both are based on a 500MHz platform.

[Wilson__]

Many thanks.  Any comment on the below four models, 1xx to 300 USD?   

What sampling rate do I need for MCU SPI signals at 10 to 40MHz clock rate. 

Kingst says 200M samples per second for 40MHz signal.  5 data points on high low cycle.

DSLogic says 10 to 100 sampling clock over SPI signal rate.

Just scanned the doc, the ngscopeclient software look amazing and promising.

[nctnico]

Keep in mind that a logic analyser hides any problem in the analog domain while most problems occur in the analog domain. Many years ago I was involved in a project and the engineer at a customer had been struggling for 2 or 3 weeks to get a simple RS485 bus working on their part of the project. So I went over and disconnected the digital probes and connected the analog probes to the RS485 bus. The problem became clear within 5 minutes after that; the timing to switch between send & receive was all wrong.

[Wilson__]

One poster kindly pointed to the ngscopeclient software.  Scanned doc, amazing and promising.  One driver was developed in Siglent SDS2000X Plus.

Is Siglent SDS2000X Plus firmware enough aged, stable and no-issue for normal use?  Amazon says was released July 2021

[NE666]

When it comes to a separate LA you might want to take a look at Digilent's "Digital Discovery".

It's at the upper end of the price range of the other LAs you've listed but it has a lot of additional functionality too (including SPI and I2C slave/host capabilities). The spec sheet says that it supports up to 800MS/s on 8 channels, supports up to 24 channels in total and is good for 100Mhz input signals. Importantly, their (free) WaveForms software looks pretty good, as does their support.

I noted earlier today that the ngscopeclient project claims to support the Analogue Discovery devices already. Given that they use the same WaveForms software as their digital kin, perhaps the latter is also supported by ngscopeclient, or that support might easily be added relatively easily?

[2N3055]

Digital Discovery is good but inputs are not protected and have very low input range, logic only.
It is more specialized thing. I use it for pattern generation, for instance.

Just get SDS2104X Plus if you can afford it.
You don't need GLScope client.
SDS2000X+ decodes more protocols than you need.
It is a fully featured scope that simply works, it is self contained and is a steal for the money.

You can get one of those cheap LA for just decoding stuff on PC, for when you are decoding long interchanges of messages when debugging software part.

[Wilson__]

Effective ADC bit (ENOB) is about 1.5 to 2 less than the specification?  8 bit ADC has 6 bit real accuracy and resolve 64 steps of digital SPI signal.  Would that be enough for task below?

How much sampling rate do I need to see the signal, without risk of missing some short time glitch?  SDS2104 is 1GSa/s when all 4 ch activated, right?  For 20MHz SPI clock, 50 dots per cycle. Enough?

On speed alone, Rigol MSO5074 is exceptional high 8GSa/s for 700 UK pounds.

I need the tool to do proper design verification after MCU software function ok. 

Look at analogue waveform of signal sent between MCU and external chip over SPI.  Verify data sheet setup time, hold time.  Also, signal integity.  Smooth rise fall of signal.  No ringing, overshoot, undershoot. 

Catch any rare occurrence signal that can fail the system once in, says, every 100 hours running.  Says, "poor" power supply voltage dropped when multiple loads are switched at same time due to rare situations/software event.

[KungFuJosh]

Don't consider the Righoul MSO5000 without reading this thread first: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/

[Fungus]

Effective ADC bit (ENOB) is about 1.5 to 2 less than the specification?  8 bit ADC has 6 bit real accuracy and resolve 64 steps of digital SPI signal.  Would that be enough for task below?

Yes.

You're mostly interested in timing between channels and signal rise times, not precise voltage levels.

How much sampling rate do I need to see the signal, without risk of missing some short time glitch?  SDS2104 is 1GSa/s when all 4 ch activated, right?  For 20MHz SPI clock, 50 dots per cycle. Enough?

You're not interested in a "cycle", you're interested in looking at the rising/falling edges.

There's not really a "too much" for that.

[Fungus]

No ringing, overshoot, undershoot. 

Those measurements will mostly be down to your probing technique, not the 'scope itself.

You should be OK with ordinary probes at 20Mhz clock frequencies, even if you have to resort to the little springs that come in the bag.

You could add little spring-probing points to your PCBs to make life easier, or even places to solder in an SMA connector.

[2N3055]

Effective ADC bit (ENOB) is about 1.5 to 2 less than the specification?  8 bit ADC has 6 bit real accuracy and resolve 64 steps of digital SPI signal.  Would that be enough for task below?

How much sampling rate do I need to see the signal, without risk of missing some short time glitch?  SDS2104 is 1GSa/s when all 4 ch activated, right?  For 20MHz SPI clock, 50 dots per cycle. Enough?

On speed alone, Rigol MSO5074 is exceptional high 8GSa/s for 700 UK pounds.

I need the tool to do proper design verification after MCU software function ok. 

Look at analogue waveform of signal sent between MCU and external chip over SPI.  Verify data sheet setup time, hold time.  Also, signal integity.  Smooth rise fall of signal.  No ringing, overshoot, undershoot. 

Catch any rare occurrence signal that can fail the system once in, says, every 100 hours running.  Says, "poor" power supply voltage dropped when multiple loads are switched at same time due to rare situations/software event.

Don't get into sampling rate rabbit hole.For digital signals, your scope is limited with front end slew rate not sampling frequency. And since SDS200XPlus is 500MHz/800ps design, and MSO5000 is 350MHz/1ns it is obvious which one will have slight advantage here.
But that is least important.
In latest firmware for SDS200XPlus  Siglent introduced I2C and SPI verification/test option that will automatically test compliance (when properly parametrized) and make an comprehensive PASS/ FAIL report.
This is something that so far was only available on high end scopes and option alone was 2-3x times more expensive than complete SDS2000X+ scope.

[tggzzz]

Now, wanting a new digital scope to help firmware debug and verify SPI/I2C analogue signal quality at 10MHz square wave.   These 4-ch scope decodes SPI full duplex traffic by hooking on MISO, MOSI, CLOCK ad nChipSelect, right?

General principle:

• first look at analogue waveforms to ensure the waveforms will be correctly interpreted by receivers as digital signals. A scope is a suitable analogue domain tool
• once that is assured, flip to the digital domain, and use digital domain tools such as logic and protocol analysers

There are many simple cheap effective digital domain tools, e.g. Salae clones and BusPirate5. The better ones don't merely capture and post-process, but filter out the boring crap then capture and post process.

What sampling rate do I need for MCU SPI signals at 10 to 40MHz clock rate. 

In the digital domain thinking in terms of frequency frequently (ho ho) leads to unhelpful and outright false reasoning. (Classic example is"scope bandwidth needs to be 5* clock frequency". That's rubbish; consider a 1Hz digital signal. The required bandwidth depends solely on transition time)

It is much better, simpler and clearer to think in terms of time and bit/baud rate.

In the digital domain with digital signals either:

• connect the UUT's clock to a flip-flop's clock, and use that to capture the UUT's data in the flip flop. That requires one sample per clock
• connect the UUT's clock and UUT's data to flip flop inputs, asynchronously sample the pair, and interpret the data stream to find an edge in the clock signal. The clock input must be inferred while the data input is stable, and that defines the sampling rate. To pick extreme figures, if you have a 100ns bit period but the data is only valid for 10ns within that 100ns, then you have to be able to locate the clock within the 10ns that the data is valid. You will probably want to sample every 2 or 3ns to ensure the edge is located sufficiently accurately.

[tautech]

In latest firmware for SDS200XPlus  Siglent introduced I2C and SPI verification/test option that will automatically test compliance (when properly parametrized) and make an comprehensive PASS/ FAIL report.
This is something that so far was only available on high end scopes and option alone was 2-3x times more expensive than complete SDS2000X+ scope.

And while you typed I grabbed some screenshots for Wilson_ .....