Design a New Precision LCR Tweezers with Much Lower Cost 【Shannon Tweezers ST42】

[Shannon]

Attached image shows the standard 10mH inductor test result.

This is good, thank you! But I'm more interested in how confidently and consistently your tweezers will measure very small SMD inductors, for example, 10-100nH?

Hello indman,
I know your trick we are profesional guys
And 100kHz excitation signal would be implement in the next generation tweezers

[indman]

Del

[Shannon]

It's a very nice product with ultimate fancy usb Type-C which is absolutely great !!! 
The only things i personally don't like it's the super tiny screen which instead should be the one like this on uRLC Tweezers https://oldgerman.github.io/845419ff/
and the last thing which i do really missing on a tool like this is the possibility to use the
Curve tracer for measure and compare components on circuit boards https://hackaday.io/project/16704-microcontroller-based-curve-tracer

However these tweezers it's supposed to be 4 kelvin or it's just a simple 2 wire probes?

Next Generation tweezers will integrated a large screen with 100kHz excitaion signal

Curve tracer is a good way to show the component's characteristic, but we may encounter some issue to use Curve tracer to measure those components on PCBA

To be honest, these tweezers use pseudo 4 kelvin, which means every tip connect to a Force wire and a Sense wire, it's not easy to design a tweezers' tip which could implement fully 4 kevin, we have consider about the implementation details, and may pay more attention to this feature in next generation.

[SilverSolder]

I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...

It would be excellent if it could discriminate between SMD components in the E48 series (2% tolerance).

Getting it reliable for discriminating between E96 values (1% tolerance) would be outright amazing!


Which leads me to another possible feature request:  Let the user choose the tolerance (E series) that the tweezer is measuring?  This way, if the user has chosen E12, the tweezer can show the nearest component value extremely fast.  If user instead chooses E96, it will take longer to measure to that precision.  See what I mean?

[tautech]

I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...

Yet my 2007 ST3 have 4 wire and way back then I can't see why design wouldn't include it if accuracy with 2 wire was sufficient.

Since I joined here in 2013 I've rabbited on how good SMD tweezers are and for good reason. Mine still get more use than a DMM especially for the ESR feature when checking caps....and mostly through hole ones !

[SilverSolder]

I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...

Yet my 2007 ST3 have 4 wire and way back then I can't see why design wouldn't include it if accuracy with 2 wire was sufficient.

Since I joined here in 2013 I've rabbited on how good SMD tweezers are and for good reason. Mine still get more use than a DMM especially for the ESR feature when checking caps....and mostly through hole ones !

But can tweezers ever be 'real' 4 wire, in the sense that the excitation current contacting surfaces are separate from the voltage measurement contact surfaces?   That would take some serious micro-engineering! 

Per spec sheets, the HP34401a DMM is good to 0.1% with just two wires.  Are tweezers really going to do better than 0.1% ?

[tautech]

I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...

Yet my 2007 ST3 have 4 wire and way back then I can't see why design wouldn't include it if accuracy with 2 wire was sufficient.

Since I joined here in 2013 I've rabbited on how good SMD tweezers are and for good reason. Mine still get more use than a DMM especially for the ESR feature when checking caps....and mostly through hole ones !

But can tweezers ever be 'real' 4 wire, in the sense that the excitation current contacting surfaces are separate from the voltage measurement contact surfaces?   That would take some serious micro-engineering! 

No of course they can't so the 4 wire is just into the legs of the tweezers not to the tips.
If it was deemed necessary one of the tweezer manufacturers would have done it by now.

Per spec sheets, the HP34401a DMM is good to 0.1% with just two wires.  Are tweezers really going to do better than 0.1% ?

Well you can't get all that circuitry and the stability it offers into a tweezers form factor and if you need metrological grade measurements SDM tweezers are not the correct tool.

Shannon and Co's results already look pretty good and I for one am keen to get my hands on their creation. 

[Shannon]

I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...

4-wire tweezers' tip is really a headache micro mechanical design, so we didn't pay much attention on this idea.
For the meaning of 4-wire measurement, the main purpose is to eliminate the influence of contact resistance, generally, it's less than 20mohm, so if the accuracy goal is 0.1%, and then the absolute value of DUT should large than 20ohm, which would not introduce apparent errors, and could cover most of the application cases.
For the absolute value of DUT is less than 20ohm, that's another story, just like indman comment, how about the test result of 10-100nH?
In the future, if the 4-wire tip is too hard to manufacturing, a compatible 4-wire test suit may be considered

Which leads me to another possible feature request:  Let the user choose the tolerance (E series) that the tweezer is measuring?  This way, if the user has chosen E12, the tweezer can show the nearest component value extremely fast.  If user instead chooses E96, it will take longer to measure to that precision.  See what I mean?

Yes, I can understand what you want, these tweezers' display update rate is 0.5Hz, which is much higher than other LCR tweezers, and we can get a really good result in such a short measure cycle, for the higher accuracy requirement, we can add this feature

[Zlotnik]

... so I've been sorting through a gazillion passives these days, and frankly was annoyed by my trusty MS8911. You can use it for 0402, but it's no fun, if you have to do it all day long. Like, at all. Feels like wearing oven mitts...
Plus I [swear] there's a range around a few hundred pF where they're simply out of spec. No idea why, they seem fine below and above. I lost a lot of time cross-checking against another instrument. Again, not fun when you're just never sure if it's the DUT that's out of spec or the instrument.

Which is all a long winded way to say:
@Shannon, any progress?
If your tweezers end up being half as good mechanically and accuracy-wise as you plan, already!

[Shannon]

... so I've been sorting through a gazillion passives these days, and frankly was annoyed by my trusty MS8911. You can use it for 0402, but it's no fun, if you have to do it all day long. Like, at all. Feels like wearing oven mitts...
Plus I [swear] there's a range around a few hundred pF where they're simply out of spec. No idea why, they seem fine below and above. I lost a lot of time cross-checking against another instrument. Again, not fun when you're just never sure if it's the DUT that's out of spec or the instrument.

Which is all a long winded way to say:
@Shannon, any progress?
If your tweezers end up being half as good mechanically and accuracy-wise as you plan, already!

the good news is the ABS housing will deliver one or two weeks later, which means the biggest uncertain processing will be under control.
And KS is preparing now.
thanks a lot for your support, it's hard for me to show my appreciate, shut up is a good choice for me.

I believe our tweezers are total different level products.

[Zlotnik]

Thanks, Shannon, for the update. Can't wait :-)
BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...

[Shannon]

Thanks, Shannon, for the update. Can't wait :-)
BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...

well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.

[SilverSolder]

I am so looking forward to trying these...

[Zlotnik]

BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...

well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.

So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value

[SilverSolder]

That is what I was imagining, at least...   being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...

OMG when can I have it...

[tautech]

That is what I was imagining, at least...   being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...

OMG when can I have it...

Wait in line ! 

[Shannon]

BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...

well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.

So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value

Right! 

[Shannon]

That is what I was imagining, at least...   being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...

OMG when can I have it...

Wait in line ! 

You all will be the early early birds

[Zlotnik]

BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...

well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.

So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value

Right! 

Ouuu, great!
If you pull off to combine usability on that level, accuracy as good as mentioned above, and the "premium tweezers" feel you described, it sounds like you have a winner at your hands.

Will the firmware be open source / hackable?

That is what I was imagining, at least...   being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...

OMG when can I have it...

Wait in line ! 

You all will be the early early birds

Tweet tweet, lol.

What do you have in mind for early bird access in the end? A head start on the early bird perks of your Kickstarter, or a flat out buy-a-prototype deal bypassing the Kickstarter campaign like mentioned earlier?

I really look forward to giving them a spin
(And it most certainly sounds like I'm not alone, lol)

[Shannon]

BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...

well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.

So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value

Right! 

Will the firmware be open source / hackable?

well, there will be some level hackable for electronics enthusiasts, I guess you could add some wireless module for these tweezers.
actually, we didn't plan to publish this message so earlier.

And the firmware is not open source and hackable, in this stage .

That is what I was imagining, at least...   being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...

OMG when can I have it...

Wait in line ! 

You all will be the early early birds

Tweet tweet, lol.

What do you have in mind for early bird access in the end? A head start on the early bird perks of your Kickstarter, or a flat out buy-a-prototype deal bypassing the Kickstarter campaign like mentioned earlier?

I really look forward to giving them a spin
(And it most certainly sounds like I'm not alone, lol)

a buy-a-prototype deal bypassing the Kickstarter campaign may be convenient for us.
There must be a discount, such as free for those guys who contributed to these tweezers as I mentioned before.

[kripton2035]

as my post seems to have vanished in yesterday's forum crash, here it is again:
I'm interested in a buy-a-prototype-before-kickstarter procedure
please tell us your price (in PM ?)
thanks.

[Shannon]

as my post seems to have vanished in yesterday's forum crash, here it is again:
I'm interested in a buy-a-prototype-before-kickstarter procedure
please tell us your price (in PM ?)
thanks.

Hi kripton2035,
Thanks a lot for your support.
For the price, we didn't make the decision right now, but it will definitely have a higher cost performance than the end product.
And in order to deliver high quality to you, we plan to tell the guys who interested after we got the small volume products.

[toli]

Next Generation tweezers will integrated a large screen with 100kHz excitaion signal

Interesting, any more info you can give on that? How much larger of a screen? What other differences in size/weight/cost?

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I'm interested in a pair of tweezer indeed. However, now that I know you already plan a better version... well 

[Shannon]

Next Generation tweezers will integrated a large screen with 100kHz excitaion signal

Interesting, any more info you can give on that? How much larger of a screen? What other differences in size/weight/cost?

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I'm interested in a pair of tweezer indeed. However, now that I know you already plan a better version... well 

Hi toli,

the plan is the screen will choose 0.96inch OLED to replace the 0.91inch OLED, the size and weight are similar, and the cost is TBD, but we can promise, there is no doubt that the cost performance will be the best as well.
The main headache point is the time is limited, we didn't have any other time to develop the 100kHz one, so the delivery time is TBD in this stage
Sounds like lip-service

[toli]

The screen size difference sounds like a nice addition, but not something that I would render game changer and prevent me from sticking to the current model.
I assume this 100KHz option would be using different HW as well, so no way to update it if we have the first batch of devices, right?

BTW, do you have any picture of the final case? I might have missed it, but I think all the pictures so far were with a 3D printed prototype case, right?