Author Topic: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?  (Read 14298 times)

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Offline skander36

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #225 on: August 18, 2024, 05:12:53 pm »


I attached a photo from the aliexpress listing for the ref I have. The stated values are (surprisingly) not the same as the piece of paper that came with mine. 😉

I have the ref warming up now, I'll turn on the meter soon and do the cold start test.

If I had solar I might leave stuff on, but my electric bills are already way too high as it is.

I would recommend you a reference with LM399. there are plenity on Aliexpress at an affordable price.
You can also build one, but from my experience you really need to put quality components to achieve high stability.
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #226 on: August 18, 2024, 05:26:30 pm »
I would recommend you a reference with LM399. there are plenity on Aliexpress at an affordable price.
You can also build one, but from my experience you really need to put quality components to achieve high stability.

When I convince myself I need a better ref, and if it's in stock at that exact moment, I'll buy a VREF10-001 r9. It's hard for those two things to line up tho. 😉
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 

Offline skander36

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #227 on: August 18, 2024, 05:52:20 pm »


When I convince myself I need a better ref, and if it's in stock at that exact moment, I'll buy a VREF10-001 r9. It's hard for those two things to line up tho. 😉

Testing a 6.5 DMM isn't enough reason?
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #228 on: August 18, 2024, 06:28:57 pm »
Testing a 6.5 DMM isn't enough reason?

Not for me. The $22 ref I have is fine for my needs. It's stable enough to show that my DMMs are also stable. I rarely need more than mV resolution, so it's sort of silly. Maybe if somebody wants to sell me a used one I'd buy it. 😉

I am about to test my ref from cold start with the DMM warmed up. I might also point a hot air wand at the ref to see how that affects the voltage. I'll post the results in the SDM thread.
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #229 on: August 18, 2024, 10:52:39 pm »
Testing a 6.5 DMM isn't enough reason?
Not for me. The $22 ref I have is fine for my needs. It's stable enough to show that my DMMs are also stable. I rarely need more than mV resolution, so it's sort of silly. Maybe if somebody wants to sell me a used one I'd buy it. 😉

If "stability" is your main goal then that's what two mulitmeters you can reference against each other gives, you don't need a reference.
i.e. it's unlikley that both meter would drift in the same direction by the same amount
But of course, not having a third meter or reference means if one of the two meters drifts, you don't know which one it is.
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #230 on: August 18, 2024, 11:38:49 pm »
But of course, not having a third meter or reference means if one of the two meters drifts, you don't know which one it is.

So I should buy a 3rd bench meter, and a calibrated reference. Fiiiiiiiiiine. Eventually. 😉
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #231 on: August 19, 2024, 07:23:49 am »
Here's my BM857 and Fluke 187 measuring the cheapo reference I got from China:


I know they're only 4.5 digit meters but I figure as long as they both agree to the last digit on a randomly-purchased reference then I'm good. No need to get a cal lab involved.

Looking at the prices of those references I think the chips must be second hand, so... they're probably well burnt-in.  :)

« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 07:29:47 am by Fungus »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2024, 10:19:04 am »
A bit off-topic, but aren't we anyway?  ;)
I just found out that my very old USSR multimeter (1978) can do something that my modern DMMs cannot: It can measure AC voltage at 20kHz. Even at 100kHz it is still within 3dB.
In the picture it should show 1.77Vrms. The reading is about 1.78Vrms @20kHz sine (5Vpp).
My An870 is completely useless at 3kHz already.

So every little meter has its raison d'être.  :)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 10:34:20 am by Aldo22 »
 

Offline MiroS

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #233 on: August 19, 2024, 11:22:36 am »
So every little meter has its raison d'être.  :)

They were sold on local market for 2-3 EUR some time ago. I think they all finished in trash.
AN270 is high-tech rocket comparing to 'that'. I do not think it is RMS mutimerer, most likely not at all.
USSR technology was modern in building tanks, prisons, spy factories, atom bombs terror,  poisons,
economical exploataion occupied countries,  but never in area of multimeters.
I would not touch this device, this plastic can be toxic, USSR did not care for such little things like heath.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #234 on: August 19, 2024, 11:42:39 am »
A bit off-topic, but aren't we anyway?  ;)
I just found out that my very old USSR multimeter (1978) can do something that my modern DMMs cannot: It can measure AC voltage at 20kHz. Even at 100kHz it is still within 3dB.

Simple reason: Inertia.

The needle can't move that fast...  :)
 
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Online Aldo22

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #235 on: August 19, 2024, 11:45:33 am »
They were sold on local market for 2-3 EUR some time ago. I think they all finished in trash.
AN270 is high-tech rocket comparing to 'that'. I do not think it is RMS mutimerer, most likely not at all.
USSR technology was modern in building tanks, prisons, spy factories, atom bombs terror,  poisons,
economical exploataion occupied countries,  but never in area of multimeters.
I would not touch this device, this plastic can be toxic, USSR did not care for such little things like heath.

Oh yeah, it's old, ugly and it stinks, but it pretty much shows the same values ​​as the oscilloscope for Vrms up to 50kHz.
That's definitely something the AN870 does not.
 

Offline MiroS

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #236 on: August 19, 2024, 12:21:21 pm »
Oh yeah, it's old, ugly and it stinks, but it pretty much shows the same values ​​as the oscilloscope for Vrms up to 50kHz.
That's definitely something the AN870 does not.

Vrms? My guess is that this is not the case. AN870 can do RMS at least up to 1-3 kHz. That one most likely only for 0 Hz.
Btw using it would be like hearing German radio from III Reich era with big black eagle on front panel. 
Personaly I do not see the difference between both regims and their artifacts.
 
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Online Aldo22

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #237 on: August 19, 2024, 12:34:41 pm »
Vrms? My guess is that this is not the case. AN870 can do RMS at least up to 1-3 kHz. That one most likely only for 0 Hz.

It certainly matches the VRMS value for sine (Not True RMS).
Perhaps "average rectified value" is more appropriate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_rectified_value
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #238 on: August 19, 2024, 12:41:09 pm »
A bit off-topic, but aren't we anyway?  ;)
I just found out that my very old USSR multimeter (1978) can do something that my modern DMMs cannot: It can measure AC voltage at 20kHz. Even at 100kHz it is still within 3dB.
In the picture it should show 1.77Vrms. The reading is about 1.78Vrms @20kHz sine (5Vpp).
My An870 is completely useless at 3kHz already.

So every little meter has its raison d'être.  :)
Even a 34401A is going to measure 300KHz with 4% accuracy. 100KHz is 0.5% or 0.04dB.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #239 on: August 19, 2024, 02:40:15 pm »
Even a 34401A is going to measure 300KHz with 4% accuracy. 100KHz is 0.5% or 0.04dB.

I don't know what you're trying to say.
I'm talking about a rotten 50 year old analog meter sitting in the basement and you're talking about a $1000 top of the line DMM.
What's the connection?
 

Offline MiroS

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #240 on: August 19, 2024, 03:19:13 pm »
Even a 34401A is going to measure 300KHz with 4% accuracy. 100KHz is 0.5% or 0.04dB.

I don't know what you're trying to say.
I'm talking about a rotten 50 year old analog meter sitting in the basement and you're talking about a $1000 top of the line DMM.
What's the connection?

I think 'old bad 'vs 'old good'.

'Old good' can be not that wrong way, actualy often best way to go. With some patient they can be really cheap.
I have a few old lab multimeters lacking plenty of fetures, but most  of them are substituded by Python GUI & scritps woking over old good GPIB. That way you can design your own irtual multimeter.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #241 on: August 19, 2024, 04:07:13 pm »
I think 'old bad 'vs 'old good'.

I don't know what you mean by "good" and "bad", but I would describe a measuring device that cost maybe CHF 35.- some 46 years ago and still measures the same today as it did on the first day as a "good" device. But of course it is now outdated.

P.S. I understand that you (still) hate the USSR (as a Polish citizen I probably would too), but this has nothing to do with it.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #242 on: August 19, 2024, 06:31:00 pm »
I also have exactly that type of russian meter. Not bad for an analog meter and reasonabe priced at the time. I nice point was that it came with schematics and even spare diodes and taut band.  I remember a nasty issue when measuring higher frequency AC - at some resonant frequency I get essentially the same deflection (~ 75% at my test) in all ranges including the 900 V range. Maybe it was just may unit or exactly a resonance or had some common mode effect.

The meter has the usual "simple" passive rectifier circuit (the version with 2 diodes and 2 resistors instead of the normal 4 diode bridge). This can work well for high frequencies, but is of cause not true RMS and gives a nonlinear scale. Higher frequency true RMS can be a bit tricky and the better converter chips get quite expensive.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #243 on: August 19, 2024, 07:01:17 pm »
My second ever multimeter too. The internal construction is a thing of beauty - once you get past the stamped pitch seal on one of the screws! Mine came with non standard NiCd button cells, which I had to build a charger for. It's a shame the Red scales faded so easily in sunlight.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 07:10:54 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #244 on: August 19, 2024, 08:51:23 pm »
Even a 34401A is going to measure 300KHz with 4% accuracy. 100KHz is 0.5% or 0.04dB.

I don't know what you're trying to say.
I'm talking about a rotten 50 year old analog meter sitting in the basement and you're talking about a $1000 top of the line DMM.
What's the connection?
The 34401A is a 25 year old, now obsolete meter.
Saying that an analog meter can do x unlike digital meters, then getting upset because it's not true?
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #245 on: August 19, 2024, 09:00:49 pm »
The 34401A is a 25 year old, now obsolete meter.
Saying that an analog meter can do x unlike digital meters, then getting upset because it's not true?

I'm not upset at all, and I never said that.
I said: "I just found out that my very old USSR multimeter (1978) can do something that my modern DMMs cannot: "
I just didn't understand what the comparison was supposed to mean.
 
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Offline J-R

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #246 on: August 20, 2024, 03:58:23 am »
Yikes, I go away for a bit and this thread has gone off the rails...


With regard to the Siglent clearance DMM, Siglent played dumb with my query about the calibration status.  They said "We do not monitor the status of instruments in the Clearance products" and they offered to calibrate it for a fee.  However, I did look up the serial number on their Warranty Status page and inferred that it was manufactured and calibrated the end of November 2023.  So the person that bought it should be a happy customer.  Side note: it's been reported in other threads that Siglent and their dealers open up equipment before shipment to spot-check or otherwise verify the calibration, even if it's still within the 1 year factory calibration period.  Also, Siglent doesn't seem to state calibration specs past 1 year.

I think that the OP should have gone for that.  It was a good deal and you get a decently modern UI.  Calibration and accuracy shouldn't be such a major concern given the OP's requirements.  My opinion is that any time a hobbyist can save some money and use it to buy other TE they should go for it.


As mentioned by Dave, references are typically not adjusted, and this is to avoid disturbing them physically.  But from what I've seen, test equipment with closed-case calibration is commonly adjusted, especially if it has a display that you're looking at all day.  And it's also common to refer to the adjustment as a part/component of the calibration procedure, and Keysight for example does speak of it that way.  Then there is the performance verification terminology that honestly for some equipment could be considered identical to the calibration procedure.

In a metrology context, I can see the point of not making any changes to any of your equipment just to make historical data tracking easier, but for a typical hobbyist or professional it makes more sense to have bench equipment that is adjusted to a reasonably-tight tolerance.  If I bother to send in my bench DMM and pay for calibration, I'm going to pay to have it fully adjusted along with the pre and post calibration data so that when it comes back I don't have to incessantly look at the cal data printout while I'm using it.  10V is 10.00000V, and I can just mentally be safe and throw away the last digit without having to refer to the cal data.  If I'm REALLY looking at digits, I'll pull out all the cal data for all the equipment involved and scrutinize the conditions.  As seen in various bench DMM performance specs, you might have the last THREE digits be off by some amount yet it's still within calibration tolerance.  How annoying would that be to use on a daily basis??


For anyone interested in turning into a volt-nut or similar, you will want to dig deep into the metrology board to map your path forward.  While not the only path, a common tactic is to purchase older gear that has aged and stabilized.  You can have it calibrated & adjusted once and then just self-verify it regularly afterwards.  With new gear, you're probably going to have to pay for calibration & adjustment many times as it ages, leading to extra costs.

Spot checking offers some information, but it's so far away from anything proper that it's kind of pointless in this context.  The BM857 has over 50 calibration points, for example, covering every function and range.  So one photo at 5V is not showing much of anything.  If you have a decent bench DMM that is in-calibration, then that can be used to compare against other, lesser DMMs, assuming you can generate the appropriate signals.

For hobby references, the DMMCheckPlus is probably the minimum worth considering, since you can at least check a handful of things, and you can use the precision current source and resistors to tease out a few more values.

Ultimately, it's a pretty big shift if you're going to go down this road.
 

Offline uargo

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #247 on: August 20, 2024, 07:20:02 am »
I have found what I think may be the best value for money, at least in Europe.
Owon XDM3051, 5.5 digits, 150 readings/s, precision 0.015±0.004
ACV up to 100Khz, AC current 10Khz, USB, RJ45, external trigger
Bar chart, column chart, trend chart, max/min value, average value, standard deviation, relative value,
DB/DBm, and Pass/Fail
And all this for 415€ with taxes included. What do you think?

https://eleshop.eu/owon-xdm3051.html




https://static.eleshop.nl/mage/media/downloads/xdm3051_datasheet.pdf
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #248 on: August 20, 2024, 07:21:21 am »
The BM857 has over 50 calibration points, for example, covering every function and range.  So one photo at 5V is not showing much of anything.

FWIW my BM857s and Fluke 187 agree within a digit or so on every range except small currents*.

Both meters have laser trimmed precision resistor arrays which basically don't drift. All measurements are derived internally from voltage measurements so if the voltage ranges are good then the rest of the meter probably is, too.

(*) the current thing might be burden voltage but I haven't really investigated deeply. They're within a couple of dozen counts of each other even on those ranges, so...  :-//   The temperature of the room is probably a bigger factor for absolute accuracy.

BM857s teardown:
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 07:27:14 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Mahagam

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Re: Decent benchtop multimeter for beginner?
« Reply #249 on: August 20, 2024, 07:47:32 am »
I have found what I think may be the best value for money, at least in Europe.
Owon XDM3051, 5.5 digits, 150 readings/s, precision 0.015±0.004

And all this for 415€ with taxes included. What do you think?
It looks very, very strange, but the accuracy of this DMM is fully consistent with Siglent SDM3055. Absolutely the same values for all parameters! How is this possible?

Maybe they were just rewritten from a competitor's datasheet so as not to look worse?
 


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