DE-5000 vs DE-6000 LCR Showdown

[macboy]

In this thread about the DE-6000 LCR meter, interest was expressed about seeing the physical differences between the (DER brand) DE-5000 and the (IET Labs brand) DE-6000.

Here are photos of my DER DE-5000:

[Wytnucls]

Is it a 4-wire or 3-wire measurement set-up?
I'm asking because, if one follows traces, one of the contacts on the negative side doesn't seem to be connected to anything.

[macboy]

Is it a 4-wire or 3-wire measurement set-up?
I'm asking because, if one follows traces, one of the contacts on the negative side doesn't seem to be connected to anything.

It is supposed to be a 4-wire measurement. The included alligator clips and SMD tweezer (not pictured) are 4-wire.
Don't forget that it is almost certainly a 2-sided board. The mystery connection is probably on the back.

[Wytnucls]

Possible, but there is plenty of space on this side for the required traces, without a need for adding further complication and vias.

[macboy]

I refrained from comments in the first post; I just wanted to present the photos. So here are my comments:

I like that the battery cover is secured with four machine-thread screws using molded-in metal nuts, rather than threading into plastic. The outer case is secured with four screws in the corners. The screws thread into the plastic on the other half, and they are captive screws (do not fall out). 

I did not like seeing all that flux residue on the manually soldered bits. 

Note the IR LED for PC communications. Note also the lack of an IR detector; obviously it is a simple one-way communication with no capability for controlling the instrument, only logging results. A IR-to-USB adapter is available at a not to bad cost, but this can also be easily mocked up with a $1 USB-TTL ebay UART board (but not an FTDI one ), a phototransistor, and maybe a resistor.

I have no way to verify the accuracy of this meter but based on multiple other people's experience, I trust the readings are within spec.

The meter can show capacitor ESR (among other things) on the secondary display, but it can't measure large capacitors at high frequencies, so you might think you can't get the ESR of your 1000 uF cap at 100 kHz. To see ESR of large capacitors at high frequencies, choose "Rs" measurement and choose the frequency. This measures only the ESR of the DUT, which can be any complex impedance.

[Wytnucls]

Judging by the unpopulated pads, it looks like Rev 8.0 consisted of removing as many components as possible, without interfering with the functionality of the meter.
I expected better quality than CEM and UNI-T, but this is just as bad. I hate those loose battery wires, with no stress relief.

[macboy]

Judging by the unpopulated pads, it looks like Rev 8.0 consisted of removing as many components as possible, without interfering with the functionality of the meter.

I can't say for certain but those unpopulated pads may be for some protection diodes or something similar. Those can and will interfere with extremely low level measurements (low pF and uH) so leaving them out is perhaps a compromise between performance and attempting idiot-proofing the instrument against people connecting big capacitors charged to 100V.

I expected better quality than CEM and UNI-T, but this is just as bad. I hate those loose battery wires, with no stress relief.

If the battery was connected with a flying snap-on lead, then I would agree. This is never intended to be opened, so the wires will never move or be stressed, so stress relief is unnecessary.

This is a sub-$100 instrument, and the general opinion is that the performance is far better than one should expect for the money spent. Let's wait and see what the much more expensive IET Labs version looks like inside.

[Terabyte2007]

macboy,

  I tried several times to upload my teardown photos of the DE-6000 and they are all under the limit and ok. I get no errors, they upload and it returns me to the thread but it never shows up? 

I may have to place them in the original thread!

[macboy]

Terabyte2007, I sent you a PM.

[Terabyte2007]

Ok, here are the DE-6000 teardown pics. At first glance from macboy's photos, they look the same. Have to dig a bit deeper on this. 

Part 1 of 2.

[Terabyte2007]

Ok, here are the DE-6000 teardown pics. At first glance from macboy's photos, they look the same. Have to dig a bit deeper on this. 

Part 2 of 2.

[Terabyte2007]

Terabyte2007, I sent you a PM.

It was the total size. I am using the Galaxy Note 4 and the 16MP camera images are so freaking big even with a reduction to 30% of their original size the DPI and image size are still over the 2000KB limit. After a further reduction and a 2-part post I finally have them up. BTW, the Note 4 also does 4K video too! 

[robrenz]

At a glance the only difference I see between the two is a huge profit margin.

I am not throwing stones here, I bought my 5000 direct from IET long ago. 

[Terabyte2007]

At a glance the only difference I see between the two is a huge profit margin.

I am not throwing stones here, I bought my 5000 direct from IET long ago. 

I have to agree.

[Pasky]

It appears at first glance of the comparison photos that it's all just a marketing act done by IET to distance itself from the DE-5000 due to the cheap Japanese DE-5000's available all over Ebay.  Their tech specification PDF's only reinforce this with the "Improved" label over one table with nothing changed and just changing a 0.1% on the other two tables for accuracy.

[Terabyte2007]

It also looks like the DM5000-2C-02 is maybe a version 2 of the DM5000-2C on macboys DE5000.

[Yago]

Is it a 4-wire or 3-wire measurement set-up?
I'm asking because, if one follows traces, one of the contacts on the negative side doesn't seem to be connected to anything.

Dave did a teardown/review of it, it is four wire:


I crumbled too in the week and ordered one, hope I don't get screwed by courier or customs!

[nanofrog]

It appears at first glance of the comparison photos that it's all just a marketing act done by IET to distance itself from the ... cheaper Japanese sellers of the DE-5000's available all over Ebay. 

Certainly does IMHO as well.

I've been waiting to see if the DE-6000 is worth upgrading to, and now I have my answer. 

[Yago]

It also looks like the DM5000-2C-02 is maybe a version 2 of the DM5000-2C on macboys DE5000.

Is my addled-mind playing further tricks or was there a thread where (on eevblog) someone returned an older meter for repair and it was upgraded too in the process (firmware and sticker)??

EG:  DE4000 to DE5000 ?

[Fraser]

After seeing the DE6000 and no revolutionary improvements I decided to add a DE5000 to my equipment inventory. Of course I bought the DER EE set from Japan as it is so reasonably priced 

Bought mine here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DE-5000-LCR-Meter-FULL-SET-With-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23-IR-to-USB-case-AC-DC-adaptor-/231358859891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de100a73

I decided to not penny pinch and so purchased the DE-5000 with all available accessories including PSU and PC connectivity.

[Lightages]

Yes I usually do that too. If I buy something that has options I will want in the future I get them too. If you don't buy them right away they usually run out of production or the item gets obsoleted and the optional bits become unavailable.

Thanks for the comparisons. I am glad I got my DE-5000 on the way already.

[macboy]

Certainly, IEC may be doing a better calibration on their DE-6000 meters at the factory. They may have tighter spec'd references or better procedures. But they may not.

The DE-6000 is still a good meter for the price, but the DE-5000, especially the Japanese market DER branded one, is a true bargain.

[ietlabs]

Thanks for all the interest and feedback with the DE-6000
Everyone is correct, the DE-5000 and the DE-6000 use the same components.   However, there are two significant technical difference between the two units:

1: Improved accuracy to 0.2% at 1kHz . IET provides an updated firmware to improve on the accuracy of the LCR Meters at 1 kHz. 
2. A LabVIEW Driver for is available for collecting data from the DE-6000.

IET is a small engineering business, with the benefit of inheriting  the GenRad legacy has made some very significant strides and advancements in impedance and LCR meter technology.

Our primary business is working with high end metrology labs and the DE-6000 is our only LCR meter that is economically feasible for the hobbyist market.

Since we are small  business, we pride ourselves in the support we offer to our customers.   IET offers  phone, email, and warranty support for all the products we sell. It is very important to us that all of our customers are successful with our products.  From our entry level DE-6000, to those purchasing the very high performance  7600 Plus we try our best to offer superior customer support.
 
Additionally we have invested significant resources in providing the community with excellent technical resources::
Informational guides http://www.ietlabs.com/lcr-meter-informational-guide or
Application Notes http://www.ietlabs.com/notes/Digibridge
or Historical Documents http://www.ietlabs.com/genrad_history/papers_application_notes/

We test and have the ability to calibrate every DE-6000 we sell.
When we calibrate these units, it is done in an ISO-17025 Accredited lab using a combination of standards that cost over $45,000

While it is true that  DE-5000 units can be found on eBay for a lower price, we believe the additional support we provide and the added performance of the DE-6000 is worth more to some customers. The less expensive choice may make better sense for those who don't have the need or the funds.

We concur with many others on the EEV blog that the DE-6000 is the best handheld unit on the market.
A number of references have been made to our profit margin.  Given the many factors involved, we can honestly report that this hasn't been a particularly successful financially endeavor.

For those who have purchased our units, we hope you are pleased with your purchase and truly value your continued business and support.  For those who did not buy or products and are going to respond to this with criticism , we are sorry that we couldn't do better by you.  We care!

Benjamin Sheena
IET Labs

[HiTech]

We concur with many others on the EEV blog that the DE-6000 is the best handheld unit on the market.......
For those who did not buy or products and are going to respond to this with criticism , we are sorry that we couldn't do better by you.  We care!

Benjamin Sheena
IET Labs

My reply isn't meant to be critical, but am I missing something here? From what I've seen in Dave's video "teardown", the DE5000 is not true 4-wire measuring and perhaps then the DE6000 isn't either? The meters' internal photos seem to indicate 4-wire sockets, but it stops there. The supplied test adaptor isn't true 4-wire nor are the alligator clips. Am I correct?  This meter suggests some similarity to the design of the Uni-T model, given its lack of true 4-wire measurement, the split banana style connectors, and the two larger SMT chips. Are the IET meters using Crystek chips and epoxying over their labeling?

By comparison the Applent  AT824 handheld LCR meter for about $15 more is a considerably better choice. It has wider range of measurements, true 4-wire capability, touch screen color TFT display that is very easy to view, has USB interface, and this meter has input protection. As far as physical construction, the main case halve has threaded brass inserts instead of the typical plastic standoffs that either strip or crack over time.  Sure, the Applent model is limited to 1KHz max test freq. but in my opinion, that's a small trade-off to the other well substantiated features it has over the DE6000. Myself, I have a limited need to test caps at 10KHz and beyond.

[robrenz]

My reply isn't meant to be critical, but am I missing something here? From what I've seen in Dave's video "teardown", the DE5000 is not true 4-wire measuring and perhaps then the DE6000 isn't either? The meters' internal photos seem to indicate 4-wire sockets, but it stops there. The supplied test adaptor isn't true 4-wire nor are the alligator clips. Am I correct?

The DE-5000 and 6000 are definitely true 4 wire kelvin.

IMO in regards to the Applent 1kHz max is entirely too limiting.