DE-5000 vs DE-6000 LCR Showdown

[ietlabs]

The unit has a simple procedure for open and short. 
This will zero out the of the impedance of the test adapter and whatever leads are connected: be it the SMD Tweezers or the Alligator Leads.  You can also cut the SMD Tweezers or Alligator leads and put whatever set of leads you want at the end. 

If you cut the leads, you do not have to worry that much about impedance since this will be accounted for in the open/short.
However, if you do a very sloppy job the very short term impedance of the leads could change and require more frequent open and shorts

Look at page 29/30 for more info on Open/Short Correction
http://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/application_notes/030122%20IET%20LCR%20PRIMER%201st%20Edition.pdf

Check out section 2.3 page 14 of the manual to see the specific procedure for the DE-5000/6000
http://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Manuals/DE_6000_im.pdf

[Terabyte2007]

My reply isn't meant to be critical, but am I missing something here? From what I've seen in Dave's video "teardown", the DE5000 is not true 4-wire measuring and perhaps then the DE6000 isn't either? The meters' internal photos seem to indicate 4-wire sockets, but it stops there. The supplied test adaptor isn't true 4-wire nor are the alligator clips. Am I correct?

The DE-5000 and 6000 are definitely true 4 wire kelvin.

IMO in regards to the Applent 1kHz max is entirely too limiting.

Yes, you are correct. The DE-6000 is true 4-wire just not true 4-wire Kelvin. The supply/sense pairs are terminated into the crocodile clip and not both side of the crocodile clip like a kelvin clip would be. I am however making a kelvin clip adapter for it which I will post once I have finished it. I would sure like to get a hold of one of your kelvin clip sets! 

btw, 1kHz, way too limited for many applications. My LCR meters range from 10kHz max to 500kHz max!

[HiTech]

The Applent comes with 4-wire K clips

[Terabyte2007]

We concur with many others on the EEV blog that the DE-6000 is the best handheld unit on the market.......
For those who did not buy or products and are going to respond to this with criticism , we are sorry that we couldn't do better by you.  We care!

Benjamin Sheena
IET Labs

My reply isn't meant to be critical, but am I missing something here? From what I've seen in Dave's video "teardown", the DE5000 is not true 4-wire measuring and perhaps then the DE6000 isn't either? The meters' internal photos seem to indicate 4-wire sockets, but it stops there. The supplied test adaptor isn't true 4-wire nor are the alligator clips. Am I correct?  This meter suggests some similarity to the design of the Uni-T model, given its lack of true 4-wire measurement, the split banana style connectors, and the two larger SMT chips. Are the IET meters using Crystek chips and epoxying over their labeling?

By comparison the Applent  AT824 handheld LCR meter for about $15 more is a considerably better choice. It has wider range of measurements, true 4-wire capability, touch screen color TFT display that is very easy to view, has USB interface, and this meter has input protection. As far as physical construction, the main case halve has threaded brass inserts instead of the typical plastic standoffs that either strip or crack over time.  Sure, the Applent model is limited to 1KHz max test freq. but in my opinion, that's a small trade-off to the other well substantiated features it has over the DE6000. Myself, I have a limited need to test caps at 10KHz and beyond.

I have an Applent AT825 and even though it's a very nice LCR meter and in many respects you are correct. It seems to struggle with small capacitors 1 pF and below where the DE-6000 seemed spot on.

[macboy]

We concur with many others on the EEV blog that the DE-6000 is the best handheld unit on the market.......
For those who did not buy or products and are going to respond to this with criticism , we are sorry that we couldn't do better by you.  We care!

Benjamin Sheena
IET Labs

My reply isn't meant to be critical, but am I missing something here? From what I've seen in Dave's video "teardown", the DE5000 is not true 4-wire measuring and perhaps then the DE6000 isn't either? The meters' internal photos seem to indicate 4-wire sockets, but it stops there. The supplied test adaptor isn't true 4-wire nor are the alligator clips. Am I correct?  This meter suggests some similarity to the design of the Uni-T model, given its lack of true 4-wire measurement, the split banana style connectors, and the two larger SMT chips. Are the IET meters using Crystek chips and epoxying over their labeling?

By comparison the Applent  AT824 handheld LCR meter for about $15 more is a considerably better choice. It has wider range of measurements, true 4-wire capability, touch screen color TFT display that is very easy to view, has USB interface, and this meter has input protection. As far as physical construction, the main case halve has threaded brass inserts instead of the typical plastic standoffs that either strip or crack over time.  Sure, the Applent model is limited to 1KHz max test freq. but in my opinion, that's a small trade-off to the other well substantiated features it has over the DE6000. Myself, I have a limited need to test caps at 10KHz and beyond.

The DE-5000/DE-6000 have true 4-wire inputs. The supplied accessories use 4-wire cabling, but are not, as pointed out already by someone else, true kelvin connections. In the tweezer, the supply/sense wires join about 1 inch from the tweezer tips. In the crocs, the supply/sense wires join in a solder joint close to the end of the bottom jaw. Not "true" kelvin style, but close, and worlds better than simple flying leads. Nothing prevents the use of better test leads. Both the banana jacks and the test clips allow 4-wire connections (banana jacks are split left-right halves for supply/sense, and the slots are split top/bottom supply/sense).

[commongrounder]

Here are my Kelvin leads based on the TL-21 alligator clip plug-in.  This was extremely easy and inexpensive to make.  I used shielded audio cable for the leads.  Also, I noticed something about the split banana input jacks.  I found that the splits are shorted together in the meter case unless an insulated spacer is inserted in the slot inputs.  The spring loaded fingers in the slots touch when nothing is inserted effectively defeating the 4-wire connection to the outside world through the banana jacks.  In any case, split banana plugs are so hard to find, using the slot inputs is a much easier option.

[Lightages]

Thanks for all the interest and feedback with the DE-6000
Everyone is correct, the DE-5000 and the DE-6000 use the same components.   However, there are two significant technical difference between the two units:

1: Improved accuracy to 0.2% at 1kHz . IET provides an updated firmware to improve on the accuracy of the LCR Meters at 1 kHz. 
2. A LabVIEW Driver for is available for collecting data from the DE-6000.
>SNIP<
For those who have purchased our units, we hope you are pleased with your purchase and truly value your continued business and support.  For those who did not buy or products and are going to respond to this with criticism , we are sorry that we couldn't do better by you.  We care!

Benjamin Sheena
IET Labs

Benjamin:

Thank you for visiting this thread and being direct and honest. I am one who decided to buy a DE-5000 from ebay based on price but only because it was already reported to be a reliable purchase. I would prefer to support those who innovate and supply good service to their customers as it appears you are doing.

Your explanation of how the DE-6000 is better than the DE-5000  answers everyone's question about how something with the same construction could provide better accuracy. What I don't understand is how this justifies a price increase of over 3 times from what the IET DE-5000 sells for. I might have purchased a DE-6000 if the price had been within what most people would consider a reasonable markup with its improvements, but 3 times seems very excessive IMHO. Your explanation on how you calibrate your meters with a $45,000 lab can justify your pricing over the DER models but not when compared to your own DE-5000.

My point in all of this is IMHO I think you priced yourself out of a market and caused people to buy from the competition instead.

[Fraser]

I am pleased to see IET Labs joining the EEVBlog forum. Many companies would not be willing to engage via such a medium as this. Well done IET Labs 

Another of my hobbies is metal working with a lathe. A small Chinese 7x12 lathe may be purchased significantly cheaper than one from a brand like WARCO, yet they appear to be the same lathe. In this example involving a lathe I can advise that the WARCO product is imported to the UK, stripped, cleaned, measured for accuracy, rebuilt and checked again for accuracy before being sent to a buyer. The China direct sourced lathe arrives in a box as it left the factory, covered in thick grease, containing swarf and needing fettling before it may be aligned and used. Time is money to many buyers so the WARCO often is worth the extra cost, plus you get great support and the unit arrives ready to use.

The DE5000/6000 is different but I do see the point that IET Labs are making. From what is stated, the IET Labs sourced meters are potentially a safer bet for those wishing to be certain of quality and accuracy. Whether there is much, if any difference between their units and those supplied out of Japan is open to discussion. IET Labs are likely to be more useful to a user if things go wrong however. You pays yer money and takes yer choice 

It sounds like IET Labs is a large player in industrial machines so it is also no surprise that their overheads are also greater than Chinese or Japanese suppliers via ebay.  Many large industrial suppliers would not wish to stock such a relatively cheap meter as they can be more trouble than they are worth in terms of paperwork and customer service calls.

Sorry IET Labs, I did buy a Japanese sourced DE5000 but that is because I am in the UK, its was very cheap and I already have better, if less portable, LCR meters 

Aurora

[MarkPalmer]

It looks like rather than base their pricing with the current (and nearly give away) market of the DE-5000, IET set the DE-6000's pricing along with 100 kHz handheld competitors like the Keysight U733 ($437 USD) and the Applent AT826 ($360 USD).  The latter two LCR's cost more to manufacture as they aren't based on the inexpensive Cyrustek chipset. 

-Mark-

[Rory]

Your explanation of how the DE-6000 is better than the DE-5000  answers everyone's question about how something with the same construction could provide better accuracy. What I don't understand is how this justifies a price increase of over 3 times from what the IET DE-5000 sells for. I might have purchased a DE-6000 if the price had been within what most people would consider a reasonable markup with its improvements, but 3 times seems very excessive IMHO. Your explanation on how you calibrate your meters with a $45,000 lab can justify your pricing over the DER models but not when compared to your own DE-5000.

My point in all of this is IMHO I think you priced yourself out of a market and caused people to buy from the competition instead.

Take a look at Dave's #229 teardown video and he quoted the prices of the DE-5000.
$330 odd dollars, he said.



So the price of the DE-6000 is not such a steep jump from the DE-5000.

[Rory]

Benjamin, is it possible for to update the firmware in the DE-5000 to that in the DE-6000?

[Lightages]

Take a look at Dave's #229 teardown video and he quoted the prices of the DE-5000.
$330 odd dollars, he said.



So the price of the DE-6000 is not such a steep jump from the DE-5000.

OK, perhaps I am mistaken about the pricing of the old DE-5000. I used a recent price reference from amazon.com when making that statement. I stand corrected.

[jpb]

Sorry IET Labs, I did buy a Japanese sourced DE5000 but that is because I am in the UK, its was very cheap and I already have better, if less portable, LCR meters 

Aurora

Similarly for me. I looked into getting an IET lab DE5000 but the cost of postage (over $100) on top of various duties and so on just made the price difference a factor of around 4 or 5 times.
On top of this, support would have been difficult in returning it to the States would have been very expensive.

For buyers in the States the support is local and the premium is much less.

[Wytnucls]

IET claims an improved firmware for the DE-6000 Cyrustek chip. As far as I know, the chip is proprietary, so presumably, this was developed by Cyrustek and is available to all manufacturers buying the latest ES51920 chip.
IET claims an accredited calibration to IEC 17025 standard, yet doesn't provide a calibration certificate with the meter.

[Wytnucls]

4 wire Kelvin resistance measurement is a bit overrated with the Cyrustek chip. I suspect that is the main reason why none of the manufacturers provide true 4W fixtures for their meters. There is no accuracy statement from the manufacturer for a resistance below 100 milliohm. Quoted accuracy from 100mOhm to 1 Ohm is 1%+5 (or 6mOhm at best) and 0.5%+3 for resistance between 1 and 10 Ohms (or 8mOhm at best). These are chip limitations and presumably cannot be improved by calibration.

As an example, a 2.2 Ohm resistance measured as 2.198 and 2.196 on 4W calibrated meters (2 mOhm max error), read as 2.200 on the 2W UT612 and 2.191 on the 2W CEM DT-9935 (Using the blade connectors on both). Pretty close to the best performance of the Cyrustek chip (1 kHz).

[robrenz]

I respectfully disagree.
This 4.5 min. video shows a different story.
I have also checked the single digit performance against the LOM 510A and it is able to resolve single digit milli Ohms within 1 milli Ohm even at 1 thru 5 milli Ohms.

Edit:
This is done with real Kelvin clips and open short calibration of the clips.  Max error of the LOM 510A at 1 milli Ohm is +/- 4µ Ohm

The DE-5000 spec at 20 Ohms and below is 1% + 3 counts so that would be +/- 3 mOhm at 1 mOhm. My unit at least obviously performs much better than that. YMMV

[fpliuzzi]

That was the video that convinced me to purchase my DE-5000. Very persuasive demonstration. Thanks.

[SkyMaster]

IET claims an accredited calibration to IEC 17025 standard, yet doesn't provide a calibration certificate with the meter.

The IET post reads "We test and have the ability to calibrate every DE-6000 we sell.".

A calibration certificate is available as an option, http://www.ietlabs.com/lcr-meter/de6000-lcr-meter.html under the Accessories tab, you can find "ISO-17025 Accredited Calibration with Test Data".

[Wytnucls]

If I understand correctly, a calibration is only done at the customer's request, for an extra cost.
Presumably, the general 'testing' ensures that the meters all fall within the one-year accuracy criteria published by IET.
Surely, that is part of every manufacturer's quality control process (except in China perhaps) and doesn't explain the price premium.

[Wytnucls]

@ Robrenz:
My point is that the 2W set up gets to an acceptable accuracy already, without the need for the extra cost and labour of the 4W rig.
I noticed you ran your test at 10kHz, when the recommendation for AC resistance measurement is to use the lowest frequency possible. I wish you had shown the meter reading 0 Ohm with the test leads connected together, to confirm the calibration.

[SkyMaster]

But what is the price of the IET DE-6000 LCR meter? 

It is not shown on the IET website.

Anybody knows?

[Wytnucls]

About 400$ with free shipping:

http://www.amazon.com/DE-6000-KIT-Programmable-Handheld-Meter-Accessories/dp/B00MWA41UQ

[wraper]

1: Improved accuracy to 0.2% at 1kHz . IET provides an updated firmware to improve on the accuracy of the LCR Meters at 1 kHz. 
2. A LabVIEW Driver for is available for collecting data from the DE-6000.

IET Labs

So where is located this new super firmware. in 24C02? 

[robrenz]

@ Robrenz:
My point is that the 2W set up gets to an acceptable accuracy already, without the need for the extra cost and labour of the 4W rig.
I noticed you ran your test at 10kHz, when the recommendation for AC resistance measurement is to use the lowest frequency possible. I wish you had shown the meter reading 0 Ohm with the test leads connected together, to confirm the calibration.

Are you sure that those meters are not 4 wire at the blade connections? And did you open/short cal the blade connections with a very short "U" of copper wire for the tests?  I have found even the blades need the cal for milliohm performance.

I will try to do a short video of the single digit milliohm performance of the 5000 including it reading zero.

[Wytnucls]

No, they are not 4W at the blades unfortunately. The CEM is not even 4W at the PCB traces. I did do an open/short calibration with the U-shaped piece of metal supplied with the UT612 and a paper clip for the CEM.
If one wants to use these meters as a milliohm meter replacement, then a 4W rig is a must. But to read rough ESR values of electrolytic caps or check 10 Ohm and above resistors , a 2W LCR meter is just fine. When it comes to electrolytics, I prefer to work with the dissipation factor anyway.
The ESR displayed in Cs mode should be correct, but the resolution is only down to 100mOhm. That's enough to identify bad caps though.
The shorting bar is not ideal for small impedance measurements, due to its own residual impedance, usually about 1mOhm and a handful of nHenries.