Choosing Lab equipment for our new electronics lab.

[CM800]

Hey guys.
I'm looking around for test equipment to get going on a product development lab (power electronics and servo drives / motion control)

I am trying to pick out and choose the equipment to use.
Does anyone have a good suggestion for:

- Oscilloscope ( 4 channel is a must ) Rigol or Agilent.
- Function generator
- Precision power supply
- Precision multi-meter. (How many digits would I probably need? 5.5?)

I'm going to be developing 3 phase and stepper motor drives for industrial applications, may branch into PLC / Automation control design.

Does anyone have any suggestions in relevance to the equipment?

We are not too worried about budget however It all has to be justified (don't really need a 1GHz scope where a 200MHz would do etc.)

Thanks,
Thomas Williamson

[Lightages]

The two most common things people leave out of their post asking for help:

Where do you live
What is your budget

Without this information you get unhelpful replies.

[CM800]

The two most common things people leave out of their post asking for help:

Where do you live
What is your budget

Without this information you get unhelpful replies.

I've already said about the budget, as for location, UK.

[Lightages]

OK, for a  minimum budget you want to consider:

Rigol DS1054Z and hack it to all options and 100MHz

Siglent SGD1025

Powers supply? Keysight to match your needs

2 multimeters at least and I would suggest Brymen BM869s and also get the PC cable, or with internal logging you want to look at Brymen BM525s. Get the PC cables for whatever you buy.

Logic analyzer, I am waiting for an Ikalogic ScanaPLUS V2

I would also suggest a clamp meter or two, Brymen BM079 for three phase voltage and single phase current, and/or a Uni-T UT211B

It also sounds like you could benefit from a handheld oscilloscope for troubleshooting on site. Make sure you get one with isolated inputs.

This is for a minimum budget. Should come in at less than $4000USD

[CM800]

I am definitely interested in that Logic analyzer.

I have that oscilloscope at home, It's great. Do you think it would be good enough for developing these kinds of products?
(Wasn't sure if I would need to go with an Agilent / Keysight 3000 series or a Rigol DS4000.)

What do you think of the Rigol bench-top power supply? This one maybe?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/dc-power-supplies/dp800/dp831a/
It looks fairly accurate too.

I shall definitely look into those meters too!

I don't think I shall need to worry about a hand held scope as anything that is borked or seems broken we would take back to base.

Thanks for your thoughts though! Does anyone else have any?

[nctnico]

IMHO the Keysight 3000 is a bit short on memory. AFAIK the memory gets smeared over the channels so the more analog and digital channels you turn on, the less memory you get per channel.

I'd get an MSO instead of a (low end) logic analyser anyway. The value for money is much better than any of the low end USB logic analysers due to the memory depth an MSO typically offers.
If you can stretch the budget a Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 series could be nice. If I had to buy a mid range oscilloscope now that would be my first choice to take a closer look at.

[CM800]

IMHO the Keysight 3000 is a bit short on memory. AFAIK the memory gets smeared over the channels so the more analog and digital channels you turn on, the less memory you get per channel.

I'd get an MSO instead of a (low end) logic analyser anyway. The value for money is much better than any of the low end USB logic analysers due to the memory depth an MSO typically offers.
If you can stretch the budget a Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 series could be nice. If I had to buy a mid range oscilloscope now that would be my first choice to take a closer look at.

That is a beautiful oscilloscope. (http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Teledyne-LeCroy/WAVESURFER-3024/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiQhABdVLXR5hFK1PR7V9lGeC2Qep8eBWfVcKhA%2f8LXAA%3d%3d)

I might chat to my boss and see if we can get one to demo for a period of time (LeCroy is quite good like that)
At nearly £3k that is quite a huge investment, gonna be hard to persuade him for that.

[nctnico]

Add another 1000 pounds for the MSO option and some more for serial decode
Or wait a couple of months and see if Siglent finally gets their SDS2000 firmware together.

[BloodyCactus]

if this is for business, the scanaplus is a toy and can you trust the readings on a uni-t at all? are the rigol DS1054Z and siglent SGD1025 even on a business level of trustworthyness? business dont go out and buy the bottom shelf cheapest everything, thats what hobbyists do.

you want someone who can give you vendor support in your country, good warranty etc.  Remember siglent are the people who had a usb socket on the front of their device and not connected to anything internally. bogus.

[CM800]

if this is for business, the scanaplus is a toy and can you trust the readings on a uni-t at all? are the rigol DS1054Z and siglent SGD1025 even on a business level of trustworthyness? business dont go out and buy the bottom shelf cheapest everything, thats what hobbyists do.

you want someone who can give you vendor support in your country, good warranty etc.

I agree with you there. It is for business. But budget is fair but rather limited. I don't have the biggest experience however I will for the most part be driving the product development forward with help from a couple of more experienced people (in other countries)
I would have thought the DS1054Z fairly trustworthy but again, I'm not an expert and I haven't been in for long enough to notice all the 'new player traps' so this is very much a learning experience for me. I am of course dealing with being fairly new (first job) and most of my experience is from a hobbyist perspective. I also of course have to deal with the fact that being new they may not always think I am right on the choices of equipment (As I am young and may be 'seeing shiny') so I do have to back up everything I say.

The company I am working for does not have a huge budget but if the price can be justified (by data) then they can understand and will agree.

[Lightages]

When I asked for a budget, I was told it wasn't important. I suspected differently so I suggested bottom range equipment that could do the job. When an expensive scope was mentioned, the budget became important. Again, no budget range leads to pointless answers.

[CM800]

When I asked for a budget, I was told it wasn't important. I suspected differently so I suggested bottom range equipment that could do the job. When an expensive scope was mentioned, the budget became important. Again, no budget range leads to pointless answers.

I understand what you mean. As I said, budget isn't a HUGE problem if I can PROPERLY justify it. I get questions like 'Are you sure you need this feature' and 'Couldn't we go with this cheaper one'
Being that this is primarily a sales company I am working for, looking to create their own product range, they don't have as good knowledge as most of us do. And even then, I don't have that much. I am to mostly learn on the job, grow my experience as I experiment and come up with designs and such that can go towards production (while doing tech support for some of their product range)

[nctnico]

If you don't have a big budget start with cheap equipment and buy specialistic/more accurate equipment if a project requires it. The Siglent SDG1000 series function generator is a decent piece of equipment.

BTW: A 70V 20A PSU will probably take a big chunk of change to buy. Maybe get two lesser PSUs which can be connected parallel or in series to get higher current or higher voltage.

[free_electron]

ditch the function generator. you;re never going to use it.

if you going to do motor drive : get multiple power supplies

[CM800]

ditch the function generator. you;re never going to use it.

if you going to do motor drive : get multiple power supplies

Really? I intended to use it for PWM control along with testing inputs / outputs against noise and various such things.

[nctnico]

Same here. Recently I did a wireless power project. I used my Siglent SDG1010 as a PWM generator for the initial testing.

[CM800]

It does worry me about how 'reliable' the equipment is... I mean people say it is hobbiest.. but then again if it works, and it makes measurements that are similar to the 'professional' ones...  whats the difference? If it does the job...  it's good. I am going to discuss with the Director / Owner of the company on Monday to choose a direction on where to go (cheap and then upgrade or expensive and few upgrades needed)

I would really appreciate it if someone could write something I could forward to my boss about the better decision to go with or any tips / such about the equipment? ( To backup what I say compared to experts / people who know their field.

[nctnico]

It does worry me about how 'reliable' the equipment is...

Whatever equipment you buy nowadays get repaired at the board or module level. So either way expect to pay a lot when it is broken. If you buy a low end Tektronix, Keysight or Lecroy: it is all made in China. The choice is more like: do you buy directly from the source or from a trading company which runs the price up by 3 times or more. BTW I'm pretty sure there are Rigol and Siglent distributors out there which care for their clients.

[Noise Floor]

What are you analysis and documentation needs?  Any need for software in the lab?

[LabSpokane]

Get a 3000 series Agilent.  You really do need more than 200 MHz for anything but the slowest of clocks now. Shoot for 500Mhz and you'll get to use cheap, passive probes, but keep the option to go to 1GHz should you need to. If you're going to be doing automation, you'll want the MSO option sooner or later and it will keep your oscope channels free. The 2000 series will only serial trigger off the scope channels. You will want this ability for monitoring Canbus/MODBUS etc.

Get the function generator option. Occasionally you'll need it.

Don't get a Rigol. By the time you add the serial decode packages and get the bandwidth you really need, it is not inexpensive any more.  And the serial decoding is done in software, which is sloooow.

[tautech]

I'd suggest a "one stop shop": http://www.siglent.com/ENs/index.aspx
SDS2000 series 4 Ch DSO with ALL options. AWG, Decode, MSO and Power Analysis (special promotion untill end of FEB)
SPD3303 series PSU
SDM3055 Bench DMM

All with supporting and compatable software.

[Wuerstchenhund]

It does worry me about how 'reliable' the equipment is... I mean people say it is hobbiest.. but then again if it works, and it makes measurements that are similar to the 'professional' ones...  whats the difference? If it does the job...  it's good.

There's quite a difference. For example, Siglent and Rigol both produce good hardware but both suck at developing the firmware for their kit. For example, Siglent came out with a nice entry level scope (SDS2000) but after all that time it is still plagued by firmware bugs that may or may not be fixed eventually. Just read the SDS2000 threads in this forum. To make matters worse it looks like Siglent is now working on new scope models so no-one knows if the SDS2000 will ever get the necessary attention.

Rigol is slightly better in this regard but they focus their attention on the products that sell most (i.e. DS2000 and DS1000z scopes, the DS2000 has seen many updates and is now in a decent state regarding its firmware) which comes at the cost of neglecting the DS4000 and DS6000 which both suffer from problems that have long been fixed in the DS2000. That means while the DS2000 is a good and reliable scope in its price class, the DS4000 is still a buggy like hell and unlikely to ever get its problems fixed.

The other thing is that support is very variable with Siglent and Rigol, while the big names have established support centers around the world with short turn-around times and the chance to talk to engineers with product knowledge and not just some script jokey.

As a hobbyist, such things may well be acceptable if the price is low, as the kit usually only sees occasional use. But in a professional setting the last thing you want is a buggy piece of equipment that wastes time or prevents you from doing what you need. Don't forget that even for a lowly paid EE time wasted time can quickly translate into costs that exceed the price of the equipment in question or the price difference between kit from a cheap Chinese brand and something from a big name brand. And it's not a good position to be in if that happens because you saved a few hundred bucks by buying or recommending cheap kit.

Get a 3000 series Agilent.

Please don't. I have to second the recommendation for the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000. It's a great scope, and while the Keysight DSO-X3000T is a good scope it's still just a rehash of the now approx 5yr old DSOX3k, and it's no match for the LeCroy (i.e. the DSOX3kT's FFT is limited to 64kpts, the WS3k to 1M; 2 math functions of which only one can be displayed with FFT on the DSOX3kT against six on the LeCroy which can be displayed at the same time even with FFT). The DSO-X3kT also only offers only 4Mpts of sample memory which is quite poor for a scope that came out in 2014 while the WaveSurfer 3000 comes with 10M. In addition, the LeCroy offers additional goodies like LabNotebook for documenting measurements (not available on the Keysight) and a user interface (MAUI) that was designed for touch from the ground up while Keysight just adds touch to a non-touch UI. If you have doubts then contact LeCroy and ask for a free loaner which you can take for a spin around the block.

You really do need more than 200 MHz for anything but the slowest of clocks now. Shoot for 500Mhz and you'll get to use cheap, passive probes, but keep the option to go to 1GHz should you need to.

I agree, 200MHz is really too low. Bandwidth is one of the most underestimated things when choosing a scope.

Don't get a Rigol. By the time you add the serial decode packages and get the bandwidth you really need, it is not inexpensive any more. 

That's true.

BTW, as to pricing, never compare the list prices for Agilent/Keysight or LeCroy kit with the prices for Rigol or similar kit. The big brands are usually pretty flexible in their pricing, and as a business you can usually haggle like on a Turkish bazar. For example, you might be able to get the LeCroy WS3000 for below list price with all the options you want for cheap or even free. Of course the more expensive the scope is the bigger is the room for negotiations but you should still be able to save a few bucks for 500MHz WaveSurfer 3000.

[CM800]

It does worry me about how 'reliable' the equipment is... I mean people say it is hobbiest.. but then again if it works, and it makes measurements that are similar to the 'professional' ones...  whats the difference? If it does the job...  it's good.

There's quite a difference. For example, Siglent and Rigol both produce good hardware but both suck at developing the firmware for their kit. For example, Siglent came out with a nice entry level scope (SDS2000) but after all that time it is still plagued by firmware bugs that may or may not be fixed eventually. Just read the SDS2000 threads in this forum. To make matters worse it looks like Siglent is now working on new scope models so no-one knows if the SDS2000 will ever get the necessary attention.

Rigol is slightly better in this regard but they focus their attention on the products that sell most (i.e. DS2000 and DS1000z scopes, the DS2000 has seen many updates and is now in a decent state regarding its firmware) which comes at the cost of neglecting the DS4000 and DS6000 which both suffer from problems that have long been fixed in the DS2000. That means while the DS2000 is a good and reliable scope in its price class, the DS4000 is still a buggy like hell and unlikely to ever get its problems fixed.

The other thing is that support is very variable with Siglent and Rigol, while the big names have established support centers around the world with short turn-around times and the chance to talk to engineers with product knowledge and not just some script jokey.

As a hobbyist, such things may well be acceptable if the price is low, as the kit usually only sees occasional use. But in a professional setting the last thing you want is a buggy piece of equipment that wastes time or prevents you from doing what you need. Don't forget that even for a lowly paid EE time wasted time can quickly translate into costs that exceed the price of the equipment in question or the price difference between kit from a cheap Chinese brand and something from a big name brand. And it's not a good position to be in if that happens because you saved a few hundred bucks by buying or recommending cheap kit.

Get a 3000 series Agilent.

Please don't. I have to second the recommendation for the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000. It's a great scope, and while the Keysight DSO-X3000T is a good scope it's still just a rehash of the now approx 5yr old DSOX3k, and it's no match for the LeCroy (i.e. the DSOX3kT's FFT is limited to 64kpts, the WS3k to 1M; 2 math functions of which only one can be displayed with FFT on the DSOX3kT against six on the LeCroy which can be displayed at the same time even with FFT). The DSO-X3kT also only offers only 4Mpts of sample memory which is quite poor for a scope that came out in 2014 while the WaveSurfer 3000 comes with 10M. In addition, the LeCroy offers additional goodies like LabNotebook for documenting measurements (not available on the Keysight) and a user interface (MAUI) that was designed for touch from the ground up while Keysight just adds touch to a non-touch UI. If you have doubts then contact LeCroy and ask for a free loaner which you can take for a spin around the block.

You really do need more than 200 MHz for anything but the slowest of clocks now. Shoot for 500Mhz and you'll get to use cheap, passive probes, but keep the option to go to 1GHz should you need to.

I agree, 200MHz is really too low. Bandwidth is one of the most underestimated things when choosing a scope.

Don't get a Rigol. By the time you add the serial decode packages and get the bandwidth you really need, it is not inexpensive any more. 

That's true.

BTW, as to pricing, never compare the list prices for Agilent/Keysight or LeCroy kit with the prices for Rigol or similar kit. The big brands are usually pretty flexible in their pricing, and as a business you can usually haggle like on a Turkish bazar. For example, you might be able to get the LeCroy WS3000 for below list price with all the options you want for cheap or even free. Of course the more expensive the scope is the bigger is the room for negotiations but you should still be able to save a few bucks for 500MHz WaveSurfer 3000.

I hate to ask, but how would I actually haggle down the pricing of a  500MHz WaveSurfer 3000 (over £7K) and how far could I haggle it down by? Not quite sure how I would approach it and what kind of bargaining power / promises I can make to get the price significantly down.

I am also admittedly a bit confused why I would need 500MHz when I am only probably going up to a max of 100KHz in terms of the frequencies I am using on the output of drives, not to mention I doubt I will ever need or want to probe the clock of my microcontrollers (Again, doubt it would go over 120MHz. I'm not arguing nor disagreeing, I just need to be able to explain the prices to my boss. Especially considering I am 18 and they may not take me as seriously when I say I 'need it' compared to a 40 year old electronics guru. (Not to mention my valve era electronics tutor who seems to think it can all be done with a 60MHz Siglent 2 channel scope)

[rodpp]

Do you already have some equipments to start the project?

If yes, maybe it's better start with it and buy new ones only when the necessity comes. In that moment you'll know exactly what you will need.

[CM800]

Do you already have some equipments to start the project?

If yes, maybe it's better start with it and buy new ones only when the necessity comes. In that moment you'll know exactly what you will need.

We have a Siglent 60MHz 2 channel scope and some cheap bench power supplies ( the kind colleges use for their classes ) Not really much other then that. We do have a decent soldering iron now however (Weller)