Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs

[tggzzz]

I'll start with a disclaimer:  I'm not the person who decides what our icons look like or are named.  But I'd be happy to share my personal thoughts

Words are easy to interpret and unambiguous. The words were there , and I understood them.
The pictograms were ambiguous[1]; why were they there? What did they add to the words? 

A few points:
1) For better or for worse, we live in a society that is often symbol-driven, not word-driven. 

Yes, too many people are illiterate, or literate in a different language. It frightens me to think that electronic engineers are illiterate!

Apple products are an excellent example of this, but it extends well outside of electronics: automobile controls, road signs, etc.  For example, the attached lawn mower warning sign: I imagine it's in everyone's best interest to convey this meaning in both words and symbols.

There's a lot of fascinating history about how the UK road signs were designed in the late 50s. In particular, there was a lot of thought given to ensuring they were distinct and unambiguous and could be understood by people that couldn't read English. A few needed to be explained once, e.g. the man putting up an umbrella meaning "road works ahead"

That they have remained unchanged for more than half a century (and that nobody complains about them!) is a testament to their success.

2) The words are there to resolve any ambiguity as to what the icon means.  I think the "gear = configuration/settings" convention is pretty universal, but as you say, many icons are not.  To continue the lawn mower analogy: I once had a lawn mower with lever that had pictures of a rabbit and a turtle next to it.  I used to make the (unfunny) joke that this lever was used adjust for what kinds of animals might be lurking in tall grass.  And, of course, there is the classic hand dryer / bacon dispenser meme (attached)

Nice anecdote

If the words are there to remove ambiguity, then the icons are - at best - unnecessary.

My parents had a microwave oven and an electric oven and nobody could understand what the pictograms/hieroglyphs meant - even after getting out the instruction book and reading that. "Nobody" means half a dozen adults of three generations.

The instruction book for the first microwave oven I ever saw was also the assembly manual (a Heathkit GD-29 microwave) - it didn't have any icons, as far as I remember  

I've built HeathKit stuff; the manuals were exemplary. No icons, either

The magnifying glass with a cross pictogram is almost the same as the search pictogram. The significance of the small religious symbol is unclear

I think it's supposed to be a "+" sign for "zoom in / increase" vs. a plain magnifying glass for search. I think these are very common, conventional symbols as well.

Therefore the icon has failed

I would assume a magnifying glass indicated magnify. Using it to mean something else is perverse!

There are two cog pictograms. What's the difference?

One is for configuring the instrument, the other is for configuring the icons - I agree that's kind of confusing

One of my favorite Latin sayings is "de gustibus (non est disputandum)" which basically means "tastes are not to be debated"   There is no "correct" answer as to whether red flowers are "better" than white flowers. 

On the other hand, I think it is possible to make value judgements about whether or not a symbol is a "good" symbol or not, that is, whether it effectively and efficiently conveys the desired meaning (for example, most people in Western society would say that red roses are more appropriate as a symbol of romantic love). 

Sorry for the long post: in my experience, decisions about what T&M instrument to buy often do come down to which instrument's user-interface is perceived as "better" by the buyer, and like everything else, tastes and preferences in user interfaces change over time as well.

In what way can icons be configured (other than removing them)?

Fashions (not taste!) do change, not always for the better. Humans and their (limited) cognitive perception are a constant.

And I like that you add caveats such as "Western society". I'm told that in China white is the colour of death, not black.

Even "simple" gestures and pictograms like "thumbs up" are not universal. In large parts of Europe and elsewhere, it is an insult meaning "sit on this thumb"! I expect that in such countries the drink below would be as successful as the Chevrolet Nova was in Spanish speaking countries

[tggzzz]

Que? Those hieroglyphs confused everybody, without exception.

Are you talking about your anecdote, or the actual screenshots? I found the screenshots perfectly clear.

I'm talking about the part you responded to in your post.

Why did you choose to remove that context in your question? (There's an obvious disreputable reason you might have done that, but I'll give you a chance to state a reputable reason).

🤣🤣🤣 Guy, so you are still harping on your anecdote then? I thought the context of the story was as to how it applied to the context of this part of the off-topic conversation in the thread.

Since it wasn't clear enough to you, I absolutely do not care in the slightest bit that 3 generations of your family couldn't understand a microwave. I'm still talking about oscilloscope screen utilization. 🙄

OK. We have to assume there was no reputable reason.

[mawyatt]

@ pdenisowski

Snakes in the road 

Best,

[pdenisowski]

@ pdenisowski

Snakes in the road 

Confession:  I had been driving for more than a decade before I realized what those squiggly lines were supposed to mean.  Seriously

[tggzzz]

@ pdenisowski

Snakes in the road 

Confession:  I had been driving for more than a decade before I realized what those squiggly lines were supposed to mean.  Seriously

I do like your anecdotes, they are seriously and usefully enlightening

[tautech]

Many Siglent products are also rebadged and as such show a different brand name until they might be later flashed with Siglent firmware.....

That's interesting. What are some specific examples? Does this happen more at the high end, or down here in the low end of things where I am attempting to swim?

The full spectrum of products.
The entry level 12bit models will no doubt follow in due course.

Some rebrands are
LeCroy < long standing collaboration with Siglent
BK Precision
RS Pro
Akip

[Fungus]

Point was ("whoosh over your head....") that when I enable measurements I still have same vertical space as you with nothing enabled, and full 155mm of horizontal space.

So... given that having measurements on is very common, the Siglent's "extra height" isn't much of an advantage in practice.

Does that make a difference to people, I don't know. But less it is.

Yep.

And that's my point. It's easy to imagine it's "better" but is it really...?

[Fungus]

I'd like to know why the graticules are so rectangular on both the RIGOL and SIGLENT?

Widescreen formats are always better. 

[DaneLaw]

I'd like to know why the graticules are so rectangular on both the RIGOL and SIGLENT?

Widescreen formats are always better. 

because of a happy face and the use of BOLD text?

It's far from ideal how little vertical resolution you have left, not least with Rigol's lackluster UI.
How many CM do you actually have vertical waveform present on your DHO800? 

Are there any other scopes on the market that cannibalize so much of the vertical area by graphics, borders..secondaries?
Aint it around 35% that is vertically consumed by these factors on the DHO800/900 series.. on many other scopes its down around 15 to 25%, and when you then have a widescreen that is so vertically narrow, from an aspect ratio that were optimised for media, it gets cramped and its not a lot you got left of your precious 12-bit vertical screen/resolution.

I get that Rigol's DHO-UI were clearly targeted bigger screens, but it is an UI that are asking a lot for such a small "widescreen".

[Harrow]

@ pdenisowski
Snakes in the road 

Confession:  I had been driving for more than a decade before I realized what those squiggly lines were supposed to mean.  Seriously

Same here. I had to have my father tell me it was advising to avoid the potholes in the road ahead.

[vk6zgo]

@ pdenisowski

Snakes in the road 

Best,

Some versions of this sign show the skid marks crossing each other, which in impossible.

[rpro]

There are some aspects of the Rigol DHO800 that I like and use all the time, like displaying multiple windows, for which the HDMI output to a bigger screen makes a lot of sense. Its XY functionality is also well featured, and the scope fan is not as loud. While the update rate of the FFT is relatively fast, its features could be vastly improved, and I am still hoping that Rigol will see the light and invest the few hours of development work needed to bring it up to par with the competition. (In the meantime, thanks in part to its fast update rate, it is quite easy (but far from ideal of course!) to quickly fetch FFT sample traces with a PC for further processing.)   

That looks great! The combination of dockable windows and HDMI output to a larger screen was a part of my decision. I'm really looking forward to it after seeing those screenshots.

When you get your scope, enter "TestModel: On" mode by clicking 3x on Utility/About.

Under Utility/Other you will see you can set the resolution of the HDMI output (which defaults to the max 1920x1080 with my 22 inch monitor). I find that the GUI motifs/text are up-scaled properly, and contrary to rumors, trace resolutions do scale-up to some extent, since I can clearly see traces better (with less pixelation) on the math channels on the monitor vs the scope screen. Insofar as the inability to display math traces on the same waveform window, yes, it would be nice to have that standard option added, but in the meantime, docking math windows vertically with the waveforms (which can also be repeated using AX+B on other math channels) allows for horizontal "phase comparisons" with ease, while displaying amplitudes with properly labeled vertical axes when needed (including the XY window). (Also, needless to say, all traces can be user-labeled on their respective windows.)

The "TestModel: On" mode also enables the "advanced options" on the XY window, including its own persistence options and trace width/intensity.

While the sizes of some of the GUI motifs could be smaller in some places, they seem mostly just right to me for touch-screen operation. (On the other hand, I use a full-HD 22-inch monitor with a wireless mouse, and I don't have issues with trace sizes, icon sizes or lack of resolution for that matter.) 

[Fungus]

Some versions of this sign show the skid marks crossing each other, which in impossible.

Not of the car spins around.

[vk6zgo]

Some versions of this sign show the skid marks crossing each other, which in impossible.

Not of the car spins around.

But then the skid marks will be more complex.

[Fungus]

But then the skid marks will be more complex.

Depending on the terrain ant tire conditions you could be comparing a front wheel mark with a rear wheel mark, in which case they could cross over each other. 

eg. BMW X-drive where traction systems are connected diagonally (hence the 'X')

[Harrow]

Some versions of this sign show the skid marks crossing each other, which in impossible.

Not of the car spins around.

But then the skid marks will be more complex.

Pull the handbrake on hard, then yank the wheel to the right. Your car does a nice handbrake turn and leaves your car pointing in the opposite direction, leaving a skid mark with a single cross just like the sign as only the rear wheels are locked and leaving tyre marks. (SOURCE: Misspent youth. ) 

[KungFuJosh]

Or do the rear-wheel drive 2-wheel driving stunts and spin a little. We're still on topic, right? Yeah, I think we're still on topic here. 🤣

[Fungus]

What if you hit a tree stump and it goes up on two wheels?

Lesson: Never say "impossible" or "nobody" on EEVBLOG unless it involves a fundamental law of physics.

[nctnico]

There are some aspects of the Rigol DHO800 that I like and use all the time, like displaying multiple windows, for which the HDMI output to a bigger screen makes a lot of sense. Its XY functionality is also well featured, and the scope fan is not as loud. While the update rate of the FFT is relatively fast, its features could be vastly improved, and I am still hoping that Rigol will see the light and invest the few hours of development work needed to bring it up to par with the competition. (In the meantime, thanks in part to its fast update rate, it is quite easy (but far from ideal of course!) to quickly fetch FFT sample traces with a PC for further processing.)   

That looks great! The combination of dockable windows and HDMI output to a larger screen was a part of my decision. I'm really looking forward to it after seeing those screenshots.

When you get your scope, enter "TestModel: On" mode by clicking 3x on Utility/About.

Under Utility/Other you will see you can set the resolution of the HDMI output (which defaults to the max 1920x1080 with my 22 inch monitor). I find that the GUI motifs/text are up-scaled properly, and contrary to rumors, trace resolutions do scale-up to some extent, since I can clearly see traces better (with less pixelation) on the math channels on the monitor vs the scope screen.

It looks like Rigol has been reading my comments about using the GPU to render traces.  Doing scaling is super easy when using a GPU for rendering where using an FPGA pretty much sucks for that purpose (memory bandwidth and other resources will become critical).

[Fungus]

Under Utility/Other you will see you can set the resolution of the HDMI output (which defaults to the max 1920x1080 with my 22 inch monitor). I find that the GUI motifs/text are up-scaled properly, and contrary to rumors, trace resolutions do scale-up to some extent, since I can clearly see traces better (with less pixelation) on the math channels on the monitor vs the scope screen

The math channels might be done on the main CPU, not the FPGA.

[core]

There are some aspects of the Rigol DHO800 that I like and use all the time, like displaying multiple windows, for which the HDMI output to a bigger screen makes a lot of sense. Its XY functionality is also well featured, and the scope fan is not as loud. While the update rate of the FFT is relatively fast, its features could be vastly improved, and I am still hoping that Rigol will see the light and invest the few hours of development work needed to bring it up to par with the competition. (In the meantime, thanks in part to its fast update rate, it is quite easy (but far from ideal of course!) to quickly fetch FFT sample traces with a PC for further processing.)   

That looks great! The combination of dockable windows and HDMI output to a larger screen was a part of my decision. I'm really looking forward to it after seeing those screenshots.

When you get your scope, enter "TestModel: On" mode by clicking 3x on Utility/About.

Under Utility/Other you will see you can set the resolution of the HDMI output (which defaults to the max 1920x1080 with my 22 inch monitor). I find that the GUI motifs/text are up-scaled properly, and contrary to rumors, trace resolutions do scale-up to some extent, since I can clearly see traces better (with less pixelation) on the math channels on the monitor vs the scope screen. Insofar as the inability to display math traces on the same waveform window, yes, it would be nice to have that standard option added, but in the meantime, docking math windows vertically with the waveforms (which can also be repeated using AX+B on other math channels) allows for horizontal "phase comparisons" with ease, while displaying amplitudes with properly labeled vertical axes when needed (including the XY window). (Also, needless to say, all traces can be user-labeled on their respective windows.)

The "TestModel: On" mode also enables the "advanced options" on the XY window, including its own persistence options and trace width/intensity.

While the sizes of some of the GUI motifs could be smaller in some places, they seem mostly just right to me for touch-screen operation. (On the other hand, I use a full-HD 22-inch monitor with a wireless mouse, and I don't have issues with trace sizes, icon sizes or lack of resolution for that matter.)

Indeed, it works !

[Fungus]

The Rigol hacking thread is getting interesting... people are now running other apps side by side with the 'scope app.

eg. a new FFT

[KungFuJosh]

The Rigol hacking thread is getting interesting... people are now running other apps side by side with the 'scope app.

Youtube? 😉

[Fungus]

The Rigol hacking thread is getting interesting... people are now running other apps side by side with the 'scope app.

Youtube? 😉

It works... but the sound isn't as good as on the Micsig. 

(maybe we can hack in a mini audio jack...)

[shapirus]

(maybe we can hack in a mini audio jack...)

I believe someone already got sound on it, in some game or something like that. Probably via a USB sound card. No need to hack in an audio jack.