Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs

[nctnico]

* Also, H,A,D,T feel meaningless. Takes longer to interpret them as Horizontal, Acquisition, etc., than if they were totally omitted and people could see the meaning from the units alone (e.g. ns/div etc) or smaller full text like the MXO 4, but appreciate that might not be possible on the smaller screen Rigol.

Squeezing the important information onto a limited display isn't a new issue. It was addressed successfully in the '80s by many pieces of equipment from many manufacturers. Start with scopes, spectrum analysers, logic analysers, ... from LeCroy, TK, HP....The

Why can't today's weenies do better?

IMHO you are severely suffering from over-glorifying the past here  . Having a 640x480 screen is not enough for having lots of information on your screen. Back in the old days, I'd print output from a logic analyser so I could at least have a readable overview of the signals. And using the first generation mixed signal Megazoom scopes from HP wasn't very joyful either without colors (except green) while having 16 digital + 2 analog traces on screen. The bottom line is that modern day equipment can do much more and thus need to display much more information.

[shapirus]

The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

They could simply open source their API/ABI and allow people to create their own GUI, or, even better, open source the entire GUI app and let the community modify it.

It would only boost their sales.

But no.

[tggzzz]

Unfortunately, marketing has overtaken engineering principles in just about every industry. I bought a kitchen appliance recently that has about 30 presets that are totally useless and just make the device harder to use. Give me two adjustments, temperature and time, to set. But then you couldn't print "30 Presets" on the box to outdo the other brand that only has 25 presets.

No doubt all the presets are hieroglyphs.

I've had similar problems with microwave ovens. I baffle the salesdroids when I ask them how to set it for 22s at 30% power. I refuse to consider buying one where I can't do that basic operation.

You are probably expected to control it from a smartphone app, at least while their servers are still operational.

[tggzzz]

The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

They could simply open source their API/ABI and allow people to create their own GUI, or, even better, open source the entire GUI app and let the community modify it.

It would only boost their sales.

But no.

Digilent Analog Discovery has such an API, or you can write JavaScript to control it.

[tggzzz]

Agree. For instance, HP spectrum analyzers packed all manner of useful information within a low-res monochrome printout.
The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

Exactly what I was thinking of.

Possibly.

Never underestimate the idiocy of an graphic designer or MBA having control over a product.

[Mechatrommer]

The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

They could simply open source their API/ABI and allow people to create their own GUI, or, even better, open source the entire GUI app and let the community modify it.
It would only boost their sales.

could you ask the same to siglent? maybe only in your wish, rigol has had success without open sourcing... open sourcing it will create another ubuntu red hat gnome and plethora countless number of linux like variant by kids who oh i like this, and then  another oh i like that. it will be dizzying to choose. i'd rather one GUI to learn and familiarized with rather than distracted by other aesthetically correct GUI. personally i dont get distracted by toyish GUI of rigol, i know where to look what i want to look, and icons can help recognizing things in case we forget. if they maximize graph display, text will be small and unreadable and it will generate complaints too. well i dont want to get deep into aesthetically correct discussion, its subjective. for anyone with ADD, get black and white screen, done..

[2N3055]

So topic: "Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs"
what is being discussed:

- that modern shit is useless : buy old crap CRT scope
- that modern shit is useless : buy old crap CRT sampling scope
- all stuff should be Open source. Including toilets. Enough of that tirrany!!
- it is irrelevant which scope you buy. Real man make their own software and scope.
- 20000 USD scopes with 16" screens are better than 400 USD scopes with 7" screens.
- modern shit is crap.
- all advanced features should be ignored and you should not use it. Because they require learning.
- since you are forbidden to use any advanced features or measurements then it doesn't matter which scope is more capable.
- really, just get FINRSI. More than that is just a conspiracy theory to get your money.
- scope color is 80% of choice.

 

[tszaboo]

And using the first generation mixed signal Megazoom scopes from HP wasn't very joyful either without colors (except green) while having 16 digital + 2 analog traces on screen. The bottom line is that modern day equipment can do much more and thus need to display much more information.

Oh I did that. 16 digital channels with the horizontal and vertical 10 tics turned the scope into a checkerboard. Completely unusable. You could fit maybe an SPI and 2 other signals on the screen, otherwise I think it was clear you were supposed to turn off everything and maybe look at the decoded signal of an 8 bit parallel bus max.

[nctnico]

The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

They could simply open source their API/ABI and allow people to create their own GUI, or, even better, open source the entire GUI app and let the community modify it.

GW Instek just released a scope (MPO-2000) where you can program your own signal processing functionality + GUI using Python and LVGL. The programming interface allows full control over remote test equipment over ethernet and/or USB as well.

[BillyO]

So topic: "Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs"
what is being discussed:

- that modern shit is useless : buy old crap CRT scope
- that modern shit is useless : buy old crap CRT sampling scope
- all stuff should be Open source. Including toilets. Enough of that tirrany!!
- it is irrelevant which scope you buy. Real man make their own software and scope.
- 20000 USD scopes with 16" screens are better than 400 USD scopes with 7" screens.
- modern shit is crap.
- all advanced features should be ignored and you should not use it. Because they require learning.
- since you are forbidden to use any advanced features or measurements then it doesn't matter which scope is more capable.
- really, just get FINRSI. More than that is just a conspiracy theory to get your money.
- scope color is 80% of choice.

 

LOL!  Great summation!

[KungFuJosh]

shit is crap.

Truer words have never been spoken. 😉

[vk6zgo]

* Also, H,A,D,T feel meaningless. Takes longer to interpret them as Horizontal, Acquisition, etc., than if they were totally omitted and people could see the meaning from the units alone (e.g. ns/div etc) or smaller full text like the MXO 4, but appreciate that might not be possible on the smaller screen Rigol.

Squeezing the important information onto a limited display isn't a new issue. It was addressed successfully in the '80s by many pieces of equipment from many manufacturers. Start with scopes, spectrum analysers, logic analysers, ... from LeCroy, TK, HP....The

Why can't today's weenies do better?

IMHO you are severely suffering from over-glorifying the past here  . Having a 640x480 screen is not enough for having lots of information on your screen. Back in the old days, I'd print output from a logic analyser so I could at least have a readable overview of the signals. And using the first generation mixed signal Megazoom scopes from HP wasn't very joyful either without colors (except green) while having 16 digital + 2 analog traces on screen. The bottom line is that modern day equipment can do much more and thus need to display much more information.

It doesn't need to display every bit of information at the same time.

[tautech]

Nonetheless, there is far too much distracting rubbish on that scope display.

Yawn
Agreed, it can be difficult to teach old dogs new tricks.   

So let's examine what we do need:
Trigger channel and type, coupling, position and level
Active channel/s, BW limited ON or OFF, probe/input attenuation, channel 0V level and input impedance
Timebase, s/div, Mem depth and sampling rate
LAN and USB connectivity indication.
Time/date

What's superfluous or missing ?

[tggzzz]

Nonetheless, there is far too much distracting rubbish on that scope display.

Yawn
Agreed, it can be difficult to teach old dogs new tricks.   

So let's examine what we do need:
Trigger channel and type, position and level
Active channel/s, BW limited ON or OFF, probe/input attenuation, channel 0V level and input impedance
Timebase, s/div, Mem depth and sampling rate
LAN and USB connectivity indication.
Time/date

What's superfluous or missing ?

Yawn

Agreed, it can be difficult to teach nappy wearers to read and comprehend what was written, and not to construct strawman arguments. And to have to repeatedly remind readers to remember to "follow the money".

That doesn't look like that crap Rigol GUI. How have you got rid of the crap and left more room for the useful information?

[BillyO]

How have you got rid of the crap and left more room for the useful information?

Yawn.

By buying a good scope.

[Harrow]

What's superfluous or missing ?

Only because you asked....a true minimalist might not have that menu permanently across the top of the screen. Instead, a small icon in the corner could bring it up in a jiffy when needed.

[tautech]

How have you got rid of the crap and left more room for the useful information?

Zip/nothing/nada !
Default display where everything is user configurable.
This is set almost exactly how we dispatch them.

That's just how I like to have my scopes set when I power them up.
If I want/need further crap I can choose to activate it or not.

All/any menu can be set to autohide 3s-1m or stay visible. Pop down menus can be set to compress or overlay the display. I prefer compress as it doesn't hide any of the trace.

You can see the Ch4 menu tab top right (last menu used) which can be recalled with touch/clicking the tab or pressing the channel button or menu hidden touch/click on it or any vacant portion of the display.

Just ask if you need to see any of this functionality.

[shabaz]

I got curious how previous-gen (i.e. smaller screen) 'scopes do it, and never noticed before, but the older Tek scopes would push into the trace display area once additional stuff like measurements etc were added. In use to me it felt unobtrusive, there was a button to remove that if the full screen view without the clutter was needed, and then press the button again to bring everything back.
Not saying it's good or bad, just a data point on one way they solved things at that time on the low-res screens.

[DaneLaw]

The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

They could simply open source their API/ABI and allow people to create their own GUI, or, even better, open source the entire GUI app and let the community modify it.

GW Instek just released a scope (MPO-2000) where you can program your own signal processing functionality + GUI using Python and LVGL. The programming interface allows full control over remote test equipment over ethernet and/or USB as well.

Some context

[Harrow]

So topic: "Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs"
what is being discussed:

- that modern shit is useless : buy old crap CRT scope
- that modern shit is useless : buy old crap CRT sampling scope
- all stuff should be Open source. Including toilets. Enough of that tirrany!!
- it is irrelevant which scope you buy. Real man make their own software and scope.
- 20000 USD scopes with 16" screens are better than 400 USD scopes with 7" screens.
- modern shit is crap.
- all advanced features should be ignored and you should not use it. Because they require learning.
- since you are forbidden to use any advanced features or measurements then it doesn't matter which scope is more capable.
- really, just get FINRSI. More than that is just a conspiracy theory to get your money.
- scope color is 80% of choice.

 

Would it be too conceitful for me to think that as a newcomer, I've managed to contribute to 20% of that list? I feel honoured indeed!

[shabaz]

(Some screenshots from the video pasted below, to save having to watch it all, although it's interesting).

From the video, the MPO display looks neat, with little wasted space on text that's not needed. It is obvious what the units like pts, MSa/s etc refer to.

The supplied apps displays look as clean as imaginable, with decent axis titles with units. I can't see how those could be improved further.

The Python GUI functionality looks like it can be integrated into the normal instrument controls.

When I first heard of the Rigol, I found the idea that they'd used Android intriguing, and probably a lot can be done with it, but in terms of practicality, I'd much prefer Python integrated into the instrument. (With Rigol, I guess what could be done, is Python as a separate app installed in the instrument, communicating via SCPI? but it's not the same at all, but perhaps a compromise).

I know the MPO-2000 is not 12-bit, but 12-bit takes a super-decent FFT (by that I mean super-usable, fast responding with decoupled controls like start/stop-freq/RBW, unlike the older scopes had) to extract max use of it (since there's only so much to see on a time-domain trace view, even zoomed in), and the MPO actually does have really good spectral analysis (if they have taken their MDO-2xxxEX functionality and reused it). It's a different price-performance of course, since costs are completely different too. But I think it's still reasonable to compare some aspects such as the display/UI.

The Rigol and Siglent, although I know so little about these instruments, are for sure tremendous price-performance (who could have imagined 12-bit scopes at that price!), but that MPO is also highly tempting with the all-round features (including dual AWG and PSU) and (expectedly good) SA and Python capability, everyone is different.

[KungFuJosh]

This thread is primarily discussing entry-level scopes under $1000 (really under $500). Why are y'all discussing that $2000+ programmable scope?

[Mechatrommer]

The Rigol display should be able to do far better, I'm speculating, but it's possible they are using GUI frameworks intended for much higher-res larger displays, and that's causing the very awkward look/feel.

They could simply open source their API/ABI and allow people to create their own GUI, or, even better, open source the entire GUI app and let the community modify it.

GW Instek just released a scope (MPO-2000) where you can program your own signal processing functionality + GUI using Python and LVGL. The programming interface allows full control over remote test equipment over ethernet and/or USB as well.

Some context ...

i thought to totally change dso's screen GUI. if to add functionalities like that, thats what i wish to have in my Lecroy SDA scope, and better if its available in these cheap entry scopes discussed in this thread. but python is for new kids, we program in c/c++ well... better something than nothing... but as mentioned it $2K scope. one reason why i became rigol addict, because its the cheapest scope yet decent builtin spec, and more importantly PC Windows API provided, to some extend we can control the scope from PC, but i'm not interested at that, what matters is i can download data to PC, with data in PC, i can do whatever processing i want, similar feature/function/processing as 2K or 10K scope if i want to. i know siglent also provides such API nowadays but they came much later. ymmv.

[Fungus]

Meh.

It's fun to imagine but you won't even notice the difference in screen height when you're using it.

Horizontal is what counts and they're both the same.

[vk6zgo]

Nonetheless, there is far too much distracting rubbish on that scope display.

Yawn
Agreed, it can be difficult to teach old dogs new tricks.   

So let's examine what we do need:
Trigger channel and type, coupling, position and level
Active channel/s, BW limited ON or OFF, probe/input attenuation, channel 0V level and input impedance
Timebase, s/div, Mem depth and sampling rate
LAN and USB connectivity indication.
Time/date

What's superfluous or missing ?

It is much less cluttered than the Rigol, & just says "SIGLENT" once, in a small font, unlike Rigol who have to shout "RIGOL" at us & in addition have a large "R" badge.
I'll know if I'm using a Rigol, so why do they have to keep reminding me?

I could use such a device as the Siglent without becoming infuriated more than once or twice a day, & that is pretty good for an "Old man who yells at test equipment"!

Of course, Rigol aren't the only or even the worst offenders, Hantek  are repeat offenders!