Choosing a ~$10K MSO (Keysight 3000G, LeCroy 4000HD, Tek MSO34, R&S ??)

[tooki]

At least the signal analysis needs will be covered by that oscilloscope so you won't have to concentrate too much on that on your new purchase. There is not a single oscilloscope which is perfect for all situations.

Ain’t that the truth! That’s one of the reasons I’ve been leaning towards the Keysight, in that its strengths are very, very different from the LeCroy I already have.

It’s a pity the Rohde & Schwartz RTB2 and RTM3 series have such woefully sluggish user interfaces, or else one of those would be a wonderful choice. :/

[tooki]

@Tooki: Did you look at any of the Yokogawa models?

Not really. The lack of any mention of waveform update rate kinda scared me off. Do you reckon they’re worth a look? The “portrait” layout of the unit is very appealing.

[tooki]

........... the 6000A would come into question with Siglent, possibly the new SDS7000A, which according to siglent eu should be on the market this year, like the larger lecroys it is a pc-based scope.

It might be beyond tooki's budget however as the base model will be 2 GHz BW which for SDS6204A (top 6000 model) is already $9990.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/

Since Siglent is closely entwined with LeCroy, it’s my understanding that Siglent scopes lean more towards being “analytical” scopes like LeCroys, as opposed to “interactive” or “real-time” scopes like Keysight (and Rigol, which more closely copies them). Since I already have a heavy-duty analytical scope, I think I should be focused more on a real-time model. Does Siglent have something more like that?

[tautech]

........... the 6000A would come into question with Siglent, possibly the new SDS7000A, which according to siglent eu should be on the market this year, like the larger lecroys it is a pc-based scope.

It might be beyond tooki's budget however as the base model will be 2 GHz BW which for SDS6204A (top 6000 model) is already $9990.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/

Since Siglent is closely entwined with LeCroy, it’s my understanding that Siglent scopes lean more towards being “analytical” scopes like LeCroys, as opposed to “interactive” or “real-time” scopes like Keysight (and Rigol, which more closely copies them). Since I already have a heavy-duty analytical scope, I think I should be focused more on a real-time model. Does Siglent have something more like that?

Yeah well in your mind what defines such ?
WFPS update rates ?

Consider that providing best WFPS rates vs sampling rates and a digital trigger ?
IMO sampling rate is king when combined with a digital trigger.

Also consider how sampling rate can be /ch or max/channels in use.
Ideally 5 GSa/s (or better) on each channel is the preferred solution.

[Someone]

Am I missing anything?

Costings presented did not include probes. You are already limiting choices to scopes with active probe interfaces for some reason. What is the fleet of available probes already?

Consider looking at a Siglent 6000A + LPA10 to share probes with the bigger lecroy.

No existing active probes around. Other than appreciating the basic divider ratio detection ring for ordinary probes, the active probe interface isn’t a requirement, just an artifact of the scope class I’ve been looking at.

If its not a hard requirement then better to leave it out, you may well be better served with a lower cost scope to complement the GHz unit already on hand. Given a budget I'm usually putting a third to a half on probing but others have different balances/needs.

Since Siglent is closely entwined with LeCroy, it’s my understanding that Siglent scopes lean more towards being “analytical” scopes like LeCroys, as opposed to “interactive” or “real-time” scopes like Keysight (and Rigol, which more closely copies them). Since I already have a heavy-duty analytical scope, I think I should be focused more on a real-time model. Does Siglent have something more like that?

Try and wrangle a demo from your local dealer, as it is your wishlist sits between their 2000 and 6000 series. Both are very competent for interactive/realtime use.

[EEVblog]

The upshot is, at this point, that unless R&S can come up with an insanely high discount on the MXO4, it's really down to the LeCroy 4000HD and the Keysight 3054G, with me leaning towards the Keysight. The LeCroy would have the advantage of the same user interface as, and high compatibility with, the WaveRunner, and it would bring with it hands-down the best set of options. But it's got the same strengths and weaknesses as the WaveRunner, in that it's an analytical scope. On the other hand, the Keysight would complement the WaveRunner, in that the Keysight is more of a real-time scope that reacts instantly and makes it easier to discover the existence of anomalies. My thinking is that the Keysight would make it easier to identify what it is I want to look at, and that if I really need to analyze it in detail, I could then use the WaveRunner to do so. Similarly, the WaveRunner's FFT is pretty decent, so it could serve that purpose.

Am I missing anything?
Are there any "gotchas" with these models that I don't know about?
Am I giving too much weight to having digital inputs?
Would that be better spent on a separate USB logic analyzer like a Saleae or Analog Discovery?

Used Keysight 4000X 1.5G with digital for $10k?
https://savings.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msox4154a-u01-2466425

[tautech]

Used Keysight 4000X 1.5G with digital for $10k?
https://savings.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msox4154a-u01-2466425

Stated feature = Capture more data with 4 Mpts memory and standard segmented memory
 
A $339 DSO has 3x more memory.

[EEVblog]

Used Keysight 4000X 1.5G with digital for $10k?
https://savings.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msox4154a-u01-2466425

Stated feature = Capture more data with 4 Mpts memory and standard segmented memory
 
A $339 DSO has 3x more memory.

Quote from the OP: "it's really down to the LeCroy 4000HD and the Keysight 3054G"
I suggested the 4000X for the same price.

[2N3055]

Used Keysight 4000X 1.5G with digital for $10k?
https://savings.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msox4154a-u01-2466425

Stated feature = Capture more data with 4 Mpts memory and standard segmented memory
 
A $339 DSO has 3x more memory.

It is even worse.

4Mpts is available  only on 1 channel per ADC  (ch 1 and 3 for instance) and only in single mode.

If 4 ch enabled and in RUN mode is 1MPTs.
If you enable MSO then only 512KPTs is available

[tautech]

Used Keysight 4000X 1.5G with digital for $10k?
https://savings.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msox4154a-u01-2466425

Stated feature = Capture more data with 4 Mpts memory and standard segmented memory
 
A $339 DSO has 3x more memory.

It is even worse.

4Mpts is available  only on 1 channel per ADC  (ch 1 and 3 for instance) and only in single mode.

If 4 ch enabled and in RUN mode is 1MPTs.
If you enable MSO then only 512KPTs is available

Kinda laughable when several DSO's under $10k offer 500 Mpts mem depth.

[nctnico]

At least the signal analysis needs will be covered by that oscilloscope so you won't have to concentrate too much on that on your new purchase. There is not a single oscilloscope which is perfect for all situations.

Ain’t that the truth! That’s one of the reasons I’ve been leaning towards the Keysight, in that its strengths are very, very different from the LeCroy I already have.

It’s a pity the Rohde & Schwartz RTB2 and RTM3 series have such woefully sluggish user interfaces, or else one of those would be a wonderful choice. :/

I use an RTM3004 as my daily driver. The UI is not the fastest but if you use the touchscreen efficiently (with the user defineable hotkeys for example), you can get things done quickly. IMHO the RTM3004 is a good choice for doing embedded development work and is a good complement to the Lecroy beast you already have. The MXO4 is likely nicer so perhaps it is worth persuing a deal.

About probes: I guess this purchase is part of the academic end of year buying frenzy? If yes, buy the probes / extra options next year OR purchase them as part of tooling for a specific project.

[2N3055]

........... the 6000A would come into question with Siglent, possibly the new SDS7000A, which according to siglent eu should be on the market this year, like the larger lecroys it is a pc-based scope.

It might be beyond tooki's budget however as the base model will be 2 GHz BW which for SDS6204A (top 6000 model) is already $9990.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/

Since Siglent is closely entwined with LeCroy, it’s my understanding that Siglent scopes lean more towards being “analytical” scopes like LeCroys, as opposed to “interactive” or “real-time” scopes like Keysight (and Rigol, which more closely copies them). Since I already have a heavy-duty analytical scope, I think I should be focused more on a real-time model. Does Siglent have something more like that?

Logic of Siglent scopes is very similar to logic of LeCroy.

Slightly slower refresh rate is not show stopper. It simply means sometimes you will see the glitch every 5 seconds instead of every 2 seconds. It is slower but still works. But lack of memory will prevent you from using high sample rate for longer timebase. There is no workaround for that. Your 500MHz scope soon becomes a 20 MHz scope.Or less. Or undersamples....

I have here 2 Siglent  scopes and also Keysight MSOX3104T.
I don't see much advantage from super high refresh rates on Keysight, but I do see problems because of short memory on Keysight that makes it drop sample rate much quicker as you go to longer time-bases. 2MPTs compared to 100MPTs is large factor.

Let's say you want to measure a parameter, like risetime, and want to do statistics on 1000 edges for an average.
Keysight takes only one measurement per trigger. On first edge from the left side of the visible screen, not in relation to trigger.
You will need 1000 trigger events until you get your 1000 measurements. So you shorten timebase so only one event is on screen. And since it uses decimated data, short timebase will increase timing resolution too. You need to always keep short timebase anyways, because otherwise sample rate drops. It needs super fast triggering because otherwise......

On Siglent or LeCroy, enter deep measurements.
You take one, single, capture with 1000 edges in it. Since you have long memory you keep maximum sample rate and retain same timing resolution as with short timebase. Scope will go into that capture and measure each and every edge and add them to the stats. All 1000 of them from a single trigger. Or 10000 from a single trigger.
In this particular case, which one is faster?

Also hardware decode in Keysights is both good and bad. It is fast, but you have to setup everything perfectly up front, before capture. You cannot capture some nice long UART data, and you realize it is not 8bit no parity but 7bit with parity and it all looks scrambled. You cannot go into settings, set it right and it will then decode properly. It was decode at capture time and that is it. You need to update settings and recapture new capture from begining. OTOH, this scope actually captures data with a comparator built in analog channel. Because of that it will sometimes decode data that in analog view looks unrecognizable... But that is a crutch that works despite it's short memory..

On scopes with software decode, you can capture some data even without decode being on. You can enable/disable decode at will and play with settings until it shows propper data...

Also Siglents/LeCroy have always running History of captures in background. It is similar to segmented capture but while normally using scope...

Every concept will have bad and good sides...

[nctnico]

Also Siglents/LeCroy have always running History of captures in background. It is similar to segmented capture but while normally using scope...

The same goes for R&S and Yokogawa. It might be handy because having an automatic history mode is typically easier to use compared to setting up segmented recording.

[Sighound36]

Does this have to be a new model?

I have a few Lecroy's some Keysight (6000 models) Siglent & Rigol. Everyday models we use Wavesufer HD's.

Have seen HDO6000's around the 12K mark, depends on which BW and sample rate you are looking, The R&S MX04 is also a very fine scope though it may be outside your of your budget. Do shop around currently one or two manufacturers are dropping their trousers for specific models.

Also, Keysight are doing some 'deals' on the 3000 series as well currently.

Although I would suggest pretty much all scopes for hence forward will be 12 bit, so do take that into consideration.

If you are looking to extract more performance then you may wish to look at the hackers whore specials Siglent, in fairness the brand has make very positive strides in the performance and reliability stakes in the last few years.

plenty of choice out there, what I would also suggest prioritise exactly what features you are looking for, take into the PROBE cost, and any future app upgrades that may be of use. Power Analysis/3 Phase/ Serial Data/ power rail analysis etc.

[tooki]

Just a quick update, since a decision has been made. I still want to respond to a number of replies above, but that will have to wait; I had an eye doctor appointment today and 10 hours later my eyes are still wonky from the dilating drops. :/

After a bit more discussion with the relevant professors, it became clearer that this really just needs to be an all-purpose scope, and that high bandwidth is not expected to be necessary (and if needed on occasion, served by one of the big LeCroys in the department.)

With high bandwidth off the table, I was able to go for the Rohde & Schwarz MXO4. The rep was able to squeeze into my budget an excellent bundle for the 200MHz model, plus mixed signal and the options bundle of low-speed serial decoders (I2C, SPI, UART, etc), automotive decoders (CAN, LIN), arb gen, and bode plotting. It’s almost certainly fundamentally overkill for what I predict to need, but the combination of a modern platform (deep memory, big, high res screen, broad feature set) AND a high waveform rate is ultimately what sold me, especially given the outstanding specs it has in basically every respect.

It was a hard choice, since every scope had something to like: the Tek MDO34 grew on me a bit, thanks to a few thoughtful little touches (like the dual multipurpose knobs and top-notch build quality and industrial design; the LeCroys share the nice UI with their big brothers and have a phenomenal set of tools; the Keysight has a nice feature set and phenomenally responsive UI. But the Keysight and Tek MDO34 are based on kinda dated technology, which is visible at times. The Sigle… err, LeCroy models, the Tek MSO24, and R&S RTB2 and RTM3 clearly push their CPUs to their very limits, so UI responsiveness and some features suffer as a consequence.

FYI, the R&S rep mentioned that the MXO4 is just the first of their next-gen scopes. The MXO5 is already on the horizon, but he mentioned that the other models are expected to be transitioned to it, too, over the next few years, likely as the MXO3, MXO6, etc. and that those should have the superior UI performance.

[nctnico]

Thanks for the update. Just a question though: in your opinion, is the user interface on the R&S MXO4 better compared to the R&S RTM3004? I guess the answer is yes given your choice but I hope you can eloborate on the details a little bit as you have hands-on experience with both.

[Martin72]

Ah, MX04...Nice.

With high bandwidth off the table, I was able to go for the Rohde & Schwarz MXO4

There are no hardware differences between 200Mhz and 1.5Ghz, you can buy software upgrades up to the top bandwith.
Or do it in another way when warranty has expired.

[DaneLaw]

MXO4 is a good modern purchase at sub10k if you can get bundled with the things/options you gonna use, otherwise, it gets expensive very fast.

Thx for the update.. always interesting to sense wiggle room (options) from scope manufacturers on relatively new models around their MSRP, and see scope vendors dropping loan units left & right to land the 10k purchase from an institution.

Very nice modern scope, no doubt.. one envious puppy here.   

[EEVblog]

With high bandwidth off the table, I was able to go for the Rohde & Schwarz MXO4. The rep was able to squeeze into my budget an excellent bundle for the 200MHz model, plus mixed signal and the options bundle of low-speed serial decoders (I2C, SPI, UART, etc), automotive decoders (CAN, LIN), arb gen, and bode plotting. It’s almost certainly fundamentally overkill for what I predict to need, but the combination of a modern platform (deep memory, big, high res screen, broad feature set) AND a high waveform rate is ultimately what sold me, especially given the outstanding specs it has in basically every respect.

Nice! 

FYI, the R&S rep mentioned that the MXO4 is just the first of their next-gen scopes. The MXO5 is already on the horizon, but he mentioned that the other models are expected to be transitioned to it, too, over the next few years, likely as the MXO3, MXO6, etc. and that those should have the superior UI performance.

Not surprising, leverage the new ASIC. Keysight have gotten 13 years out of the Megazoom IV.

[EEVblog]

It was a hard choice, since every scope had something to like: the Tek MDO34 grew on me a bit, thanks to a few thoughtful little touches (like the dual multipurpose knobs and top-notch build quality and industrial design; the LeCroys share the nice UI with their big brothers and have a phenomenal set of tools; the Keysight has a nice feature set and phenomenally responsive UI. But the Keysight and Tek MDO34 are based on kinda dated technology, which is visible at times. The Sigle… err, LeCroy models, the Tek MSO24, and R&S RTB2 and RTM3 clearly push their CPUs to their very limits, so UI responsiveness and some features suffer as a consequence.

That was one of the surprising things about the new(ish) Tek 5/4/3/2 series. Awesome standardisation across the UI and other things, but still rather slow scopes. They have enough differentiation though to be competitive in the corporate world.
Not a peep out of Keysight on the Megazoom V or whatever they will call it. I do wonder if they are re-evaluating things after the R&S MXO release?
The previous Megazoom releases were about 8 years apart, now it's coming up on 13 years...

[tooki]

Thanks for the update. Just a question though: in your opinion, is the user interface on the R&S MXO4 better compared to the R&S RTM3004? I guess the answer is yes given your choice but I hope you can eloborate on the details a little bit as you have hands-on experience with both.

I think the RTM3 is a tad easier to use: I think some of the menu options are grouped a bit better. But the RTM3’s CPU simply isn’t up to the task of keeping that UI nice and fluid (for example when scrolling), and the lower screen resolution means scrolling is needed on it. The MXO 4’s customizable toolbar is, IMHO, slightly indicative of room for improvement, which I hope they do over the years.

The MXO 4’s flexibility in screen layout also gives you more rope to hang yourself with. But that’s a fair trade off for being able to tile the screen at will, including tabbed views of the same signals configured differently.

[tooki]

That was one of the surprising things about the new(ish) Tek 5/4/3/2 series. Awesome standardisation across the UI and other things, but still rather slow scopes.

Yeah, the consistency is nice. I’m a bit disappointed at how so many scopes are slow these days. The first DSO I ever used was the venerable DS1054Z, and then Keysight (after which that generation of Rigol scopes is clearly modeled), and I didn’t realize how spoiled I was in terms of responsiveness and display update rate (which is the other aspect of slowness that gets overlooked, after waveform update rate).

As for consistency, IMHO LeCroy is the most consistent, in that it’s essentially the identical UI across all their scopes (with the possible exception of the entry-level T3D series). If I’m reading between the lines correctly (because of how one of the remote control APIs is deeply entwined with Windows), it’s actually basically the same code on all of them, running either on Windows CE or “real” Windows.

They have enough differentiation though to be competitive in the corporate world.

The MDO3 grew on me a bit more than I expected. It’s definitely not the most powerful scope among the options, and there are many things that aren’t obvious until you remember “this UI is designed around double clicking”. But it also doesn’t get in your way too much, and the fit and finish of the hardware is impressive.

Not a peep out of Keysight on the Megazoom V or whatever they will call it. I do wonder if they are re-evaluating things after the R&S MXO release?
The previous Megazoom releases were about 8 years apart, now it's coming up on 13 years...

Yeah, that’s a really good question.

What I hope is that they (and everyone else) start hiring programmers with backgrounds in low-latency UIs, like gaming, audio production, and video editing. It really shouldn’t be that hard…

The other thing I wonder is how much of the code can (and should?) be moved into GPUs, since that’s where a lot of a modern computer or SOC’s actual processing power is. I have a hunch that this is something a lot of non-game programmers have very little experience with.