Author Topic: Variable switching power supply  (Read 38049 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2015, 09:23:23 am »
This seems like a nice little extra PSU for the bench. Would it be difficult to add an output enable switch?
Why would you bother if it doesn't overshoot?
The only space available on the front panel is in close proximity to the mains switch.
 Mains and LV  :popcorn:
Switching it on/off using an output enable switch often leads to a more controlled ramp, doesn't wear out the mains switch and doesn't cause  nasty  mains-switching spikes which may upset circuity connected with longer wires (programming tools for example).
BTW: does it retain it's settings between power cycles?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4694
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2015, 09:42:34 am »
It would be easy enough to add a shutdown to most things, the controller they use could well have an enable pin, i cant really forsee myself needing it, but at the minimum i'll atleast be pulling it down to give the soldering a look over,

Really glad to hear about being able to charge batteries with it, :)
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28911
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2015, 10:04:10 am »
BTW: does it retain it's settings between power cycles?
Yep, 5 turn WW pots.
I had wondered on "upgrading" my K305D bench unit with 10 turn pots, but that defeats the purpose of a very handy portable PSU. It's my "grab first" unit because its small, light and unbreakable.

Only 100 mV resolution on the display, but 10 mA on the current display.
Units I have checked, the displays are reasonably accurate, not precise, but fine for the price.

It would be easy enough to add a shutdown to most things, the controller they use could well have an enable pin, i cant really forsee myself needing it, but at the minimum i'll atleast be pulling it down to give the soldering a look over,

Really glad to hear about being able to charge batteries with it, :)

I gave the first one I got a  ;) private teardown, undocumented, to check build quality.
IIRC it was quite reasonable, but not quite TE quality.

Done a few SLA's with the K305D too.
Nice to be able to set it correctly for a cyclic charge and watch the current slowly fall away.
Real handy for those odd 6V jobbies that you sometimes come across and don't have a charger for.  ::)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline bookaboo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 738
  • Country: ie
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2015, 11:48:51 am »
I have the MCH-K302D, identical unit with the exception that it's 0-2A. Very happy with it in all respects  :-+
Also I have the MCH-K1204D which gives 120V at 0-4A variable which I've been using 24/7 for long term testing since January, again for the price it's superb.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:50:58 am by bookaboo »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2015, 01:13:50 pm »
I received mine today (30V / 5A) and opened it up for inspection. There are a few safety issues with it:

1) The heatsinks for the primary switching mosfets are hot (=connected to mains). The PSU uses a diode as a temperature sensor with some thermal paste to goo things together. I'm not convincent this meets the requirements for a proper isolation barrier. Also -unlike what you'd expect- thermal paste isn't a very good conductor of heat.

2) The terminals of the mains switch are not isolated. In my one wires from the secondary circuit where touching the connections of the mains switch.

3) There is no wire from the mains entry ground terminal to the case.

4) The wires to the mains entry are not going through the holes of the terminals.

Besides that I'm also missing a power factor correction circuit. For sale in the EU that would be required. But then again there is no CE marking on it so at least it doesn't pretend to be any better than it is.

I'm going to test it and afterwards I'm going to make the following modifications to increase safety:
- Redo the wiring to the mains entry and add heat shrink tubing for isolation and mechanical strength
- Add a ground lead from the casing to the ground terminal of the mains entry
- Put heatshrink tubing around the mains switch
- Glue the mains leads to the board

And while I'm at it I'll also add a output enable/disable switch. The Chinglish manual says 'please do not load to start the power switch'. I think master Yoda means the PSU should not be switched on with a load connected  :wtf:

I think I'll also upgrade the output terminals to better ones. I have a bunch of those anyway.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: alm

Offline slurry

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 159
  • Country: se
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2015, 05:50:23 pm »
the board layout and how it's built.... looks like my Manson bench supply inside.
and actually manson has a very similar model...  http://www.manson.com.hk/products/detail/28

i have one of those Manson supplies, happy with it, actually i will take a photo so we can compare..BRB

edit: now i'm back  :)  the psu does not look the same inside, not at all.

My psu was actually not a Manson, it is a PeakTech but it looks the same, maybe it look different inside?





I did some measuring at 3V, with no load and with 1A load, the ac ripple is low, around or less than 2mV regardless high or low voltage and with or withoaut load.


I checked the output when i turn the output on 3V, no load.



..and 3V with 1A load.



« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 06:34:15 pm by slurry »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2015, 06:17:18 pm »
I found some bad soldering in the unit I got. I could pull one of the wires from the power switch and one of the wires to an LED also came off by itself. It seems this things need restoring straight out of the box.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28911
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2015, 08:15:04 am »
I found some bad soldering in the unit I got. I could pull one of the wires from the power switch and one of the wires to an LED also came off by itself. It seems this things need restoring straight out of the box.
Guess it would be that horrible lead free muck, for PCB production it might be fine, but for terminals and off board connections. What were they thinking?  :--
I've already pointed the manufacturer to this thread, I'd better do it again.  :scared:
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2015, 08:23:22 am »
It has nothing to do with lead free soldering; I get my lead free joints just as nice as with leaded solder. It just takes better soldering skills and properly adjusted equipment (right temperature and tip).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28911
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2015, 08:54:35 am »
I received mine today (30V / 5A) and opened it up for inspection. There are a few safety issues with it:

1) The heatsinks for the primary switching mosfets are hot (=connected to mains). The PSU uses a diode as a temperature sensor with some thermal paste to goo things together. I'm not convincent this meets the requirements for a proper isolation barrier. Also -unlike what you'd expect- thermal paste isn't a very good conductor of heat.

2) The terminals of the mains switch are not isolated. In my one wires from the secondary circuit where touching the connections of the mains switch.

3) There is no wire from the mains entry ground terminal to the case.

4) The wires to the mains entry are not going through the holes of the terminals.

Besides that I'm also missing a power factor correction circuit. For sale in the EU that would be required. But then again there is no CE marking on it so at least it doesn't pretend to be any better than it is.

I'm going to test it and afterwards I'm going to make the following modifications to increase safety:
- Redo the wiring to the mains entry and add heat shrink tubing for isolation and mechanical strength
- Add a ground lead from the casing to the ground terminal of the mains entry
- Put heatshrink tubing around the mains switch
- Glue the mains leads to the board

And while I'm at it I'll also add a output enable/disable switch. The Chinglish manual says 'please do not load to start the power switch'. I think master Yoda means the PSU should not be switched on with a load connected  :wtf:

I think I'll also upgrade the output terminals to better ones. I have a bunch of those anyway.
Thanks for the teardown analysis.  :-+
Did you mean the terminals on the mains switch were not insulated?

As I stated none I've sold have had any issues, including a class set of 15 that have been in daily use for ~2 years.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2015, 02:04:02 pm »
Meanwhile I did some more testing. One of the problems I found was an excessive amount of noise on the output (about 1.5V). I added an extra output filter but that did absolutely nothing. It turns out the design has some EMC flaws which cause excessive current into the ground wire. I added 2 10nF 2kV capacitors in series between the minus of the PSU and the minus of primary section. This reduced the levels to around 150mV.

Another problem is that the line regulation is not that good at full load (30V / 5A). I've noticed a 0.5V 50Hz ripple at the output. Perhaps the capacitors on the primary side are too small.

I attached some photo's to show the goo on the heatsinks, output enable switch, better binding posts, a ground strap to the case, isolating the mains switch and fixating the mains wires.

My version is slightly different than the one from the topic started. Mine has several through hole components.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 02:06:43 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2015, 02:05:06 pm »
And some scope images showing the noise reduction by adding the capacitors and the output ripple at full load.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline slurry

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 159
  • Country: se
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2015, 02:27:03 pm »
Certainly built to a price Point..
 

Offline OldDogSleeping

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 12
  • Country: gb
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2015, 07:32:04 pm »
I have this same LW-K305D version as nctnico, and also seemed to get a lot of noise ( over 1v ) on the output, but when I checked at the output point on the board using a short GND wire, most of the noise disappeared and dropped bellow 50mV. So being a newbie, I assumed the noise was down to my poor measurement technique at the binding posts. Is it likely to be real, if it isn't present at the output of the board ?

Also I do agree with nctnico's observations on the poor earthing, and connections to the switches etc, the general workmanship is very poor.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2015, 08:11:42 pm »
The problem isn't noise between the output binding posts. The problem is that the power supply is pushing HF noise from the switching stage into outputs if one of the outputs is connected to ground.

Edit: What puzzles me is how Tautech was able to get such a clean trace. I wonder whether his PSU and scope are grounded.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 10:17:02 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2015, 12:33:15 am »
I have to admit this PSU somehow got me obsessed with fixing the EMC problem it has. It turns out the switching MOSFETs create a lot of junk around 80MHz (see purple FFT trace). I added 3 ferrite beads (Wurth 742792515 with a high impedance at 60MHz; blue circles) to contain the junk and added some snubbers (220pf + 560 Ohm; red circles) between the source and drain of the MOSFETs, added 150 Ohm series resistors to the gate of the MOSFETs (purple circles) to slow the edges down and put a 10nf 2kV capacitor (yellow circle) between the + and - power supply rails of the MOSFETs for extra decoupling. With these modifications the amount of noise it produces with the scope attached gets reduced to 200mVpp (with peak detect enabled!). The earlier screendumps where with the 20MHz bandwidth on (I overlooked that).

Now the manual says there is also a 30V 10A version and I already spotted that one on Ebay.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 02:10:29 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21972
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2015, 03:42:16 am »
Ehhhhhhh... please don't increase the gate resistors.  They're probably marginal as-is, and with poorly chosen, antiquated transistors, the rise time was probably pretty nasty to begin with.

That said, it doesn't look like much heatsinking, so maybe the switching design wasn't too terrible.  Which makes worsening it all the more dangerous.  If nothing else, don't call it "done" until you've done a full load test (elevated ambient temperature, various load conditions including full rated current at low voltage, half and full voltage).  Keep spare transistors (and whatever's in the gate drive circuit) handy. ;)

You should be able to identify what loops are ringing.  This is the kind of thing you can track down piece by piece: squash one squiggle, find the next largest one, and so on.  A near-field probe (E or H) is good for this.  H probe can be a small coil of wire, insulated: wave it around the circuit and see where signals peak, and rotate its axis to test directionality (it's sensitive to currents flowing along the turns in the coil, which is the same as saying, magnetic fields parallel to the coil's axis, because currents produce perpendicular fields).  Fields are gently curved and fade gradually, so you can track sources by the relative intensities and wave shapes near different components.

Ferrite beads may not do very much, because they saturate quite easily, and can actually make other things worse (increasing overshoot or reducing damping in the power supply network).  Ditto bypass caps (or both).  It's worth some back-of-the-envelope numbers to determine whether what you're adding will affect these or not... or do anything at all.

That said, it still seems likely that adding a ferrite bead to the offending node (I would guess it was diode reverse recovery..?) would still help, because of two effects: the remaining impedance (even when saturated), which won't be too bad at 80MHz (~10s of ohms, probably comparable to the circuit's impedance there, thus damping it, or shifting it down at least), and using the saturation as a feature rather than a bug: when a ferrite bead is saturated, it acts like a hunk of wire, but as it comes out of saturation, it absorbs a big gulp of flux (volts * time), which softens the blow to the diode and makes reverse recovery softer.  Once the diode is off, the ferrite bead isn't carrying current either, and it resumes its ferrite-beaded glory, dramatically increasing the inductance (and loss) in the diode's loop, damping oscillation versus the diode's capacitance.

Ferrite beads are also commonly seen on transistors, usually the input (base/gate) or common (emitter/source) terminals, or both.  I wouldn't recommend the latter, because again, it's probably not going to do much (that's where load current goes).  But there can be value in the former, especially if there is pressure to keep gate resistance minimal (for fastest switching).

What happens there is, if there's a big beefy gate driver chip, it can deliver such a jolt to the gate that it momentarily saturates the series ferrite bead, so after a short delay (less than 10ns?), the gate swings as quickly as ever, and as gate voltage comes to a rest (damped by circuit resistance), it comes out of saturation and resumes being a higher impedance, damping possible gate oscillations.

Don't forget to check common mode as well as differential.  If your probed measurement changes whether there's a ferrite bead on the probe cable or not, suspect everything!

Good luck,

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2015, 02:30:36 pm »
Ehhhhhhh... please don't increase the gate resistors.  They're probably marginal as-is, and with poorly chosen, antiquated transistors, the rise time was probably pretty nasty to begin with.
I didn't look up the transistors' specs but they don't get very warm to begin with even at full load. It is mostly the rectifier diode which gets hot. With low switching frequencies (this PSU runs at a mere 30kHz) you can use quite high values for the gate resistors.

I just checked: the 60N10 MOSFETs are rated for 600V 9.5A which could qualify as overkill.

I did use a H field probe to find the part of the circuit which is most problematic. IMHO the circuit board layout isn't optimal as well so there is another limit to what can be achieved. I tried several different component variations and what I have now seems to give the best performance versus the amount of hacking.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 02:35:55 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28911
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2015, 01:43:52 am »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2015, 04:00:08 pm »
After waiting for more than two months I finally received the 30V 10A version. The circuit board looks exactly the same but the MOSFETs and rectifier diode have bigger heatsinks. It also has the same safety concerns I noted earlier so it will need a partial rebuild before use.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28911
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: K305D Variable switching power supply
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2017, 01:14:33 am »
So the unit I've had for a few years developed a fault.....the amps display shows the mark of the devil: 666  >:D

Display driver IC is of course suspected and confirmed with coms to the manufacturer and also a mate that has had the same problem with his. The IC is a SOP-24 GC7137AP seven segment driver. They can be found on Aliexpress for ~$1 ea.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/GC7137AP/32810722187.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.24.8fLoLj

As yet I've not found a datasheet in anything but Chinese however it's a pdf that can be copied and pasted into a translator bit by bit.  :phew:
http://www.sungine.com.cn/static/upfile/xzzx/201606131526533225.pdf

My buddy had found K305D schematics and I share them below.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico

Offline RetroDan™

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 15
  • Country: 00
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 12:10:35 pm »
I bought this from Amazon, and I can adjust the Voltage, but I get nothing on Amperage.  If I turn the V all the way up and THEN muck about with A, I see a single 0.05A spike on the display that quickly returns to 0.00.  I'm super pissed off that I wasted my time on this piece of dreck.
(**A new 3rd Edition** companion is in preparation, expected publication 4Q15: “Learning the Art of Electronics — A Hands-on Approach”)
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27357
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 12:45:36 pm »
I bought this from Amazon, and I can adjust the Voltage, but I get nothing on Amperage.  If I turn the V all the way up and THEN muck about with A, I see a single 0.05A spike on the display that quickly returns to 0.00.  I'm super pissed off that I wasted my time on this piece of dreck.
Did you connect a load? Without a load there will be no current flow and hence the display will show zero. I guess what you are missing is the current limit setpoint. This is often not shown on power supplies.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Dave

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1352
  • Country: si
  • I like to measure things.
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 02:54:38 pm »
Did you connect a load?
Come on, he can't possibly be that thick...

... can he?
<fellbuendel> it's arduino, you're not supposed to know anything about what you're doing
<fellbuendel> if you knew, you wouldn't be using it
 

Offline Enoch

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: Variable switching power supply
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2017, 02:51:58 am »
This should be from China's design
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf