Brymen BM869, short review (small update added 2013-01-19)

[blacksheeplogic]

No, what I find interesting is that my comment was twisted in this manner.

I wouldn't call it twisting, but rather interpreting?  Maybe that was not your intent to be understood that way, but that is the way it came across. That is the problem of text communications, it leaves much to be interpreted.

Thank you. My comment was not intended to degrade Bryman but point out that Bryman are best served by being given constructive criticism.

Should someone with a $100 meter be expected to spend $250 to have it calibrated because it drifted or was repaired, I guess in the disposable society they are just expected to by another. It's not an economic to repair.

Someone should not expect to try and calibrate  and adjust a 0.02% multimeter without having standards that are 0.002% accurate. Do you have this equipment?

This is a point we do disagree on. If I want to calibrate my 87 I can. Can I perform a calibration to factory specification, no, but I can get close and that might be good enough for me vrs paying $250 to a cal lab. It's my meter so why can't I make that choice.

[Lightages]

Again, you forget or ignore what I said. I said that the calibration information can be obtained by asking Brymen directly. How does this prevent you from calibrating your Brymen should you choose to take the risk of screwing it up?

Edit:
Needing to ask Brymen directly is a bit of protection for Brymen as they will know you are intending to play with the calibration and can then have some justification to refuse a warranty by someone who has played with the calibration without proper equipment. Anyone can understand not wanting to give free warranty calibration or service to someone who has intentionally tampered with something.

[markone]

If I want to calibrate my 87 I can. Can I perform a calibration to factory specification, no, but I can get close and that might be good enough for me vrs paying $250 to a cal lab. It's my meter so why can't I make that choice.

What do you mean with "close" ?
What calibration equipment do you own/use to do that ?

[blacksheeplogic]

If I want to calibrate my 87 I can. Can I perform a calibration to factory specification, no, but I can get close and that might be good enough for me vrs paying $250 to a cal lab. It's my meter so why can't I make that choice.

What do you mean with "close" ?
What calibration equipment do you own/use to do that ?

1. For a lot of people including myself the high precision that a lot of test gear now provides at simply is not needed on a day to day basis. Close to me is good enough for my needs and will be different for different people.

The 87 while a nice meter, but it's not high precision, nor is the calibrator required. Any 5.5 or better bench meter is quite adequate to get close to factory specs.

2. I have equipment that exceeds or meets fluke requirements to calibrate the 87 with the exception of the higher ACV and a couple of the resistance ranges although I can make the measurements. Other people may not but for most practical purposes using another trusted meter would be close enough. It's their choice to make.

[ebastler]

Squealing backlight, secret chipset, and secretive calibration procedure, all justified and forgiven. Forget the link to Dave or the EEVBlog, constructive criticism and feedback is ultimately the only way a company like Bryman's going to step their game up and be taken more seriously.

These meters need to be recalled, fixed and basic service information like calibration procedures need to be published just like the big established players in this field.

I may have missed something earlier in this thread. Why should the meters be "recalled and fixed"? Or are we just discussing whether we can expect Brymen to publish the calibration procedures? I am considering to buy a BM869 or 867, hence would appreciate a clarification - thanks!

[Lightages]

Dave's re-branded BM235 suffers from a capacitor that makes noise when the back light is on and it bothers some people. It makes absolutely no difference in the performance of the meter. This is what is being implied that needs a recall to have fixed. I have never heard a back light squeal from any Brymen that has passed through my hands, BM869S included. It is a one off problem with the BM235 at this point. A recall to fix this would be ridiculous IMHO as it has nothing to do with the function of the meter. Is it annoying to some? Maybe. It only affects one shipment of one model at this point.

The noise made about the calibration method not being made public is a bit over the top too. I have said, and will repeat, that Brymen will supply the information to those who ask them directly. They will also supply the information to any calibration lab who needs it. It is not being held secret so you can't adjust your meter. It is not being openly published so as to prevent people playing with the procedure without the proper equipment needed and putting their meters out of specification, especially during the warranty period. If the information was made public, then Brymen would have no way to know if the owner had tampered with the calibration or if the meter had a failure and would be having to fix meters under warranty even if wasn't the fault of Brymen. By needing to ask Brymen for this information they can track who is using this procedure and make an educated decision as to whether the owner had caused the fault or if it was a fault of the meter. It is very logical.

Eventually all the information will probably get leaked, but until then they have some security.

[_Wim_]

Dave's re-branded BM235 suffers from a capacitor that makes noise when the back light is on and it bothers some people. I makes absolutely no difference in the performance of the meter. This is what is being implied that needs a recall to have fixed. I have never heard a back light squeal from any Brymen that has passed through my hands, BM869S included. It is a one off problem with the BM235 at this point. A recall to fix this would be ridiculous IMHO as it has nothing to do with the function of the meter. Is it annoying to some? Maybe. It only affects one shipment of one model at this point.

The noise made about the calibration method not being made public is a bit over the top too. I have said, and will repeat, that Brymen will supply the information to those who ask them directly. They will also supply the information to any calibration lab who needs it. It is not being held secret so you can't adjust your meter. It is not being openly published so as to prevent people playing with the procedure without the proper equipment needed and putting their meters out of specification, especially during the warranty period. If the information was made public, then Brymen would have no way to know if the owner had tampered with the calibration or if the meter had a failure and would be having to fix meters under warranty even if wasn't the fault of Brymen. By needing to ask Brymen for this information they can track who is using this procedure and make an educated decision as to whether the owner had caused the fault or if it was a fault of the meter. It is very logical.

Eventually all the information will probably get leaked, but until then they have some security.

Thanks for this detailed explenation. I can for sure agree with this approach, and it good to know that I probably can bring my meter to a local cal lab should I ever need it. So far my BM869s has been exeding my expectation, and can recommend it to any-one.

[ebastler]

Thanks for the good summary and the background information on calibration, Lightages.

I was aware of the backlight noise discussion; not a big deal in my view, as it seems easily fixable if it should affect a particular unit. What I was puzzled about was that blacksheeplogic mentions the backlight issue at the beginning of his post in the "all justified and forgiven" category. But then goes on and concludes that the meters ought to be "recalled and fixed". What gives? Is there another, more significant issue, or did you just get carried away, blacksheeplogic?

[markone]

Thanks for the good summary and the background information on calibration, Lightages.

I was aware of the backlight noise discussion; not a big deal in my view, as it seems easily fixable if it should affect a particular unit. What I was puzzled about was that blacksheeplogic mentions the backlight issue at the beginning of his post in the "all justified and forgiven" category. But then goes on and concludes that the meters ought to be "recalled and fixed". What gives? Is there another, more significant issue, or did you just get carried away, blacksheeplogic?

AFAIK no,

the only significant issue here is a sort of surreal atmosphere where actual BM869's owners are providing positive feedbacks while lot of people who have never touched the "damned" thing are claiming all sort of problems 

Probably this is the sign that BRYMEN is selling well and this is going to disturb someone else.

I actually own a BM869S that i use on a daily basis without any kind of problem, for the budget probably is the best you can get (for sure here in EU) and if you do not care a lot about AC reading's precision and double TCs reading you can go for the 867 model saving additional money.

If you are from Deutschland, i suggest to purchase it from TME, lighting fast service with UPS courier.

[blacksheeplogic]

What gives? Is there another, more significant issue, or did you just get carried away, blacksheeplogic?

It's not important to me if you agree with me or not. I think it hurts a company trying to make in roads into a category currently dominated by a few big players having quality issues like this and an answer "It works why are your complaining" from a distributer isn't a good way to show your outstanding commitment to customer satisfactions or product quality.

The reasoning behind not releasing cal procedures shows some immaturity within the company, the same kind of immaturity we see from some some manufactures who scrub chip numbers. Again, you can chose to agree or disagree.

I realize this is Dave's forum and therefore the very defensive reaction is understandable. You can take my comments either being aimed at constructive criticism - advocating a positive change in the company culture and the need to be seen to decisively address & maintain an image of being a premium quality product, or you can assume those of us who express any criticism want to see Dave & Bryman fail. Your choice.

Bryman's going to continue to compete in the lower highly price sensitive segment unless they make a change.

[Lightages]

What gives? Is there another, more significant issue, or did you just get carried away, blacksheeplogic?

It's not important to me if you agree with me or not. I think it hurts a company trying to make in roads into a category currently dominated by a few big players having quality issues like this and an answer "It works why are your complaining" from a distributer isn't a good way to show your outstanding commitment to customer satisfactions or product quality.

You claim it is a quality issue worthy of a recall. I said that it is annoying to some but not worth a recall. I never said that I would not replace any meter that showed this annoyance, nor did I claim that Brymen (spelled with an "e") or Dave would not replace any meters that had this issue if asked to by the purchaser. As a distributor, I have nothing to do with any meters that have the squealing issue, and will send any back to Brymen if I receive one. A recall would be necessary if there was a fault discovered that was a safety issue or a function issue. A squealing noise does not mandate a Brymen wide recall of all meters just in case it has a small noise that annoys someone. It can be handled on a case by case basis. You are not the first person to insult me because you want to believe I am dishonest and put my concerns of making a few pennies over my integrity.

The reasoning behind not releasing cal procedures shows some immaturity within the company, the same kind of immaturity we see from some some manufactures who scrub chip numbers. Again, you can chose to agree or disagree.

Yup, Gossen is immature and have no business selling meters too in that case I guess..... 

I realize this is Dave's forum and therefore the very defensive reaction is understandable. You can take my comments either being aimed at constructive criticism - advocating a positive change in the company culture and the need to be seen to decisively address & maintain an image of being a premium quality product, or you can assume those of us who express any criticism want to see Dave & Bryman fail. Your choice.

Bryman's going to continue to compete in the lower highly price sensitive segment unless they make a change.

Why do you obviously misspell Brymen? Are you trying to troll? Is it your intent to insult everyone here as having no integrity by saying we would support Dave at any cost to the truth? It certainly appears so in your short time here.

[jesuscf]

Bryman's going to continue to compete in the lower highly price sensitive segment unless they make a change.

Interesting comment... but for a company that has neither any significant marketing nor any visible advertising I guess they are doing quite well. 

[rsjsouza]

I think I grasp blacksheeplogic's reasoning. Paraphrasing Louis Rossmann: first you be the best, then you be the 1^st. Fluke, Gossen have built their brands based on years of trying to achieve perfection and are still delivering quality products. Brymen, on the other hand, is the newcomer that is making inroads on the same market with new products and should achieve perfection to get to the same reputation level as the other two - including fixing nuisances.

That is the reason that Fluke's reputation is still strong despite having their own share of boo boos. Brymen, on the other hand, will always be put to test in its pursuit of perfection. 

However, one thing easily forgotten is that perfection at all costs is not as easy as it once has been - the price driven market is more prevalent nowadays, which forces companies to do compromises in their designs.

And that is why I think it comes the largest criticism of Fluke when compared to Brymen: it hasn't released a technology leading product in years now - at least in the portable DMM market. Brymen, on the other hand, is reaping the benefits of being close to the industrial power house of the world and has released products with better features, specs and even safety (IIRC the only other Cat IV 1000V is from Gossen).

That will start to eat on Fluke's main markets. At least in the US, Brymens are branded as Greenlee and do not necessarily have a low price - although still a tad cheaper than Fluke. I recall seeing a few electrician/HVAC forums praising their quality (sorry, can't recall links as I am not a regular).

[Wytnucls]

That's wishful thinking. Brymen is non-existent in China, India and Malaysia. Fluke is everywhere in Asia. Brymen has a small presence in Australia, Europe and the US, through Greenlee and Metrel, but, for some unknown reason, they are not really competitive on price. Online sales to individuals are probably doing ok, through TME.
As for cutting edge products, I suggest you browse through the recent Fluke and Gossen catalogues. Brymen makes decent safe multimeters at affordable prices, but there isn't much innovation yet. They have a long way to go, before joining first league. It is feasible, but it will be an arduous road.

[ProBang2]

[...] Fluke is everywhere in Asia. Brymen has a small presence in Australia, Europe and the US, through Greenlee and Metrel,

Don´t forget Amprobe.

but, for some unknown reason, they are not really competitive on price. [...]

In which way is Brymen responsible for the resellers calculation?

[...] As for cutting edge products, I suggest you browse through the recent Fluke and Gossen catalogues. [...]

I have missed something, perhaps...
Where is the handheld, UL-listed Cat IV 1000V multimeter from Fluke? Do you have a link?

[Wytnucls]

[...] Fluke is everywhere in Asia. Brymen has a small presence in Australia, Europe and the US, through Greenlee and Metrel,

Don´t forget Amprobe.

but, for some unknown reason, they are not really competitive on price. [...]

In which way is Brymen responsible for the resellers calculation?

[...] As for cutting edge products, I suggest you browse through the recent Fluke and Gossen catalogues. [...]

I have missed something, perhaps...
Where is the handheld, UL-listed Cat IV 1000V multimeter from Fluke? Do you have a link?

Did I hit a raw nerve?
What about Amprobe? Haven't seen a single one in Asia. That makes sense, as they mostly sell relabeled Chinese DMMs.
Retail prices are Brymen's problem insofar as it affects their sales volume.
There is obviously no need in the industry for a handheld meter to work in a CAT IV 1000V environment, otherwise Brymen would have buried Fluke, Hioki, Yokogawa and Gossen a long time ago. The major manufacturers aren't in a rush to test to that level either. That must tell you something. If CAT IV 1000V makes you feel safer testing your electric wurst griller in the garden, good for you.
Where is the Brymen catalogue by the way? All I can find is their shitty company site.


http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/support/catalog
https://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/seiten/catalogdownload.htm
https://www.hioki.com/en/

[rsjsouza]

That's wishful thinking. Brymen is non-existent in China, India and Malaysia. Fluke is everywhere in Asia.

Which only confirms my post. Fluke is number one due to its reputation built over the years, but it has been playing safe for several years on their portable DMM product line. I still think this may be enough to start eating Fluke's dominance, but obviously will not happen in a decade or so.
 

As for cutting edge products, I suggest you browse through the recent Fluke and Gossen catalogues.

I thought I had put a remark in my post above that I don't know Gossen that well, but the only newest thing out by Fluke in the portable DMM line is the Fluke 3000 with conservative specs - not a terribly convincing product that only relies on the wireless connectivity as the innovation. IMHO this is an interesting feature if it works properly, but it requires additional accessories and in my opinion is not an evolution on their 87V but more of an evolved 179 (as shown in their main page).

Brymen makes decent safe multimeters at affordable prices, but there isn't much innovation yet. They have a long way to go, before joining first league. It is feasible, but it will be an arduous road.

I agree with you, apart from the innovation factor. Perhaps we perceive innovation differently: Fluke seems to be shooting for breakthroughs (wireless, modules, etc.) while Brymen is shooting for incremental improvements (dual displays, lead alerts, built-in connectivity, etc.)

[classical]

Looking at Brymen's webside I do not get the idea that Brymen wants to occupy the world market of multimeters in the next few years. On the other hand I see that they most probably will not have huge expenses for marketing & sales.

For me it is important to get an decent meter for a fair price. And here Brymen looks good in my opinion.

Fluke, Gossen etc. also deliver a decent quality or even better but for a higher (or much higher) price.

The backlight noise shows that the quality assurance seems to be incomplete. Not nice and this schould be improved.
But in my opinion this is not a reason for a recall because it is not a safety issue. Maybe a warranty claim if you feel worth while doing.

I also do not have the equipment to calibrate or adjust a 0,02% class meter. So I keep my hands off and have no need for a calibration manual.
But it is important that professional calibration labs get this info. And this is what Lightages confirms.

 

[markone]

I also do not have the equipment to calibrate or adjust a 0,02% class meter. So I keep my hands off and have no need for a calibration manual.

The truth is that almost nobody here has such equipment or even come close to, dmmcheck or similar devices are good only to get a partial rough estimation of DMM accuracy/health.

Maybe someone has access to meteorological equipment due to job's related reasons, definitely not the typical case....

[ProBang2]

[...] Fluke is everywhere in Asia. Brymen has a small presence in Australia, Europe and the US, through Greenlee and Metrel,

Don´t forget Amprobe.

but, for some unknown reason, they are not really competitive on price. [...]

In which way is Brymen responsible for the resellers calculation?

[...] As for cutting edge products, I suggest you browse through the recent Fluke and Gossen catalogues. [...]

I have missed something, perhaps...
Where is the handheld, UL-listed Cat IV 1000V multimeter from Fluke? Do you have a link?

Did I hit a raw nerve?

In no way. I do not use a Fluke 87V neither a Brymen 869. For safety related stuff I am using a Gossen Metrahit. I am also not a fanboy (not even of Gossen) or a distributor or anyhow related. Simply independent and neutral. Just self building my opinion. Hence interested in the progress of multimeters. But, yeah, nothing changed. I am not surprised that is unable for you to post a link. 

What about Amprobe? Haven't seen a single one in Asia. That makes sense, as they mostly sell relabeled Chinese DMMs.

The asian market is just of zero interest for me. I am in europe. If presence in the asian market is direct related to the quality and safety of a multimeter, then the Uni-T devices are high-end stuff?

Retail prices are Brymen's problem insofar as it affects their sales volume.

The re-seller decides the price. He wants to maximize his benefit. And he buys more from the OEM,if and when he wants more. There is no influence of Brymen. If the re-seller doesn´t reach his wanted selling volume, than the price goes down. Nothing more simple then that. Obviously they can get the higher price. That must you tell something.

There is obviously no need in the industry for a handheld meter to work in a CAT IV 1000V environment, otherwise Brymen would have buried Fluke, Hioki, Yokogawa and Gossen a long time ago. The major manufacturers aren't in a rush to test to that level either.

Not now, perhaps. On the long run they will. Or loose.
If I can get the car with the best brakes for less money as the car with the second best brakes ("but good enough since 20 Years...") , then guess, which one would be preferred?

That must tell you something.

Sure. Some companies don´t learn from the past. The better is the enemy of the good. Ever. (And sometimes is cheaper = better.) Think about the image of japanese cars in the ´70s and 80´s. And today? And look at e.g. Detroit in the past and today (or Germany, Bochum, "GM Opel"). In the beginning japanese cars were sold very cheap and used ones even more cheaper. Hence the modelcycling time of the car (sometimes only 2 years) was very short and the car also not long up-to-date. The pricing of used US-cars were much more stable, hence the longer modelcycle the car was longer "hip". But every japanese modelcycling contained improvements. Can you get the similarities to Brymen or even Uni-T?   

If CAT IV 1000V makes you feel safer testing your electric wurst griller in the garden, good for you.

It seems there is a massive emotional involvement. Raw nerve? I gave you no reason to be personal aggressive.
There is a distributor of Brymen, able to argue unbiased in a objectively, civilisized way. Why can´t this be ecpected from you? (Perhaps because in the last century my grandfather has beaten the sh*t out of yours? Or is it something else?)
And: Yes. I am feeling safer in the car with the best brakes. Even if I drive only Vmax 120 Km/h.

Where is the Brymen catalogue by the way? All I can find is their shitty company site.

It seems there is no more. Obviously Brymen is quite happy as OEM.
Not promoting and selling the own meters is, at least in my opinion, an unbelievable waste of potential.
Perhaps some day they will do. Till this day it is only an advantage for Fluke, Gossen and so on...

[mos6502]

Perhaps because in the last century my grandfather has beaten the sh*t out of yours?

Classy.  But don't leave out what the Russians did to your grandmother.

Fact is, Bryman completely disqualified themselves by their slow Peak Min/Max function. Because if you're doing any kind of electronic or industrial troubleshooting, you want that. That leaves only Fluke, Keysight and Hioki (and CEM, Uni-T and DER EE among the lesser manufacturers).

[classical]

slow Peak Min/Max function.

How fast is really necessary according to your experience?

[mos6502]

slow Peak Min/Max function.

How fast is really necessary according to your experience?

Depends on the application. Watch this video:



The Fluke 87V will give usable readings down to 50us:



That should be good enough for most applications, like checking power supply ripple or serial bus communication. Some Uni-T meters offer 10us. But I don't know if that would pick up too much noise and give you meaningless readings.

[classical]

Thank you! In the past I used my scope for transients. But maybe in some situations the multimeter is more handy.

[Wytnucls]

It's not only for transient. One should always measure Vpp, to make sure the meter's Vrms reading is within the meter's maximum crest factor (Vpeak/Vrms). Usually 3 and 6 at half scale.