Beginner scope, old analog vs. digital handheld

[DennisCA]

Hello, I am looking at possibly buying a scope.

I think it could be useful when working on repairing old equipment and perhaps help me deepen my knowledge of electronics (just from finding new stuff to play with I guess).

I am currently working on things such as cassette decks and amplifiers (for my own use) and I have worked on welders. Mostly older stuff. I admist I have not yet needed a scope to fix them. I understand a scope can be good for audio purposes though, particularly for tuning a cassette player it'd be useful.

I was looking at local 2nd hand ads and found a Hameg 404 for 100€, it's a 40mhz analog scope, would this be a good beginners scope? Is the price decent?



I was also recommended to look at some of the new handheld digital scopes, such as the Mini DSO203 which is in a similar price range, but digital. Though I have read some negative stuff on this on these forums when I googled it.

Hameg seems to be german quality engineering, though it's less capable in terms of features as well as bulky (tho I have the space) and it might be of that age where it needs servicing, but seller claims it's fully functional.

I guess on an emotional l level I like the old analog CRTs (I like old tech in generaö), but I try not to let it affect my decision making.

To be honest I am open to the idea that I don't need a scope yet, maybe I should get an electronics book instead. All feedback is apprecaited though, I know a lot of beginners wanna get the next tool before they have a need for it and I might suffer from that too.

[xrunner]

Lots of opinions coming. I'd prefer the price a little lower but I say yea sure, it's fine to start out with for what you are going to work on.

[rvalente]

For analog id go with the tek 22xx series you may source something for 50bucks, simple, easy to source and repairable. Id definitely get a used digital (lots of rigols/agilents with pretty decent uses but low on memory, which does not seems to be a need for you).

Id totally avoid teks tdsxxx series as they are terrible to use (slow as fuck)

[MT]

I was looking at local 2nd hand ads and found a Hameg 404 for 100€, it's a 40mhz analog scope, would this be a good beginners scope? Is the price decent?

No, not for 100 but for max 30 to barely 50 it could, depending on condition. since you mention your circumstances you could as well just add 20euro and go for a all in one thing.
https://usa.banggood.com/OWON-HDS200-Series-2CH-Handheld-Oscilloscope-40-or-70MHz-Bandwidth-20000-Counts-Multiumeter-OSC-+-DMM-+-Waveform-Generator-3-in-1-Suitable-for-Automobile-Maintenance-and-Power-Detection-p-1802427.html?cur_warehouse=CN&ID=6301777&rmmds=search

[tunk]

If you don't mind paying a bit more for a HDS200 you can get rebadged versions from
farnell and element14 (multicomp MP720780, MP720782, MP720781, MP720783).

There's also an EEVblog thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-hds-200-handheld-oscilloscope-w-builtin-dmmawg/

[Old Printer]

Judging by the logo on the screen I would guess it is one of the later analog scopes produced. The most usually seen fault would likely be failing caps in the power supply, so the newer the better. Can you get a copy of the factory service manual? One of the advantages of the old Tek scopes is that they have excellent service manuals and most of them are available free or cheap.

[DennisCA]

I found the regular manual, the front of the scope says 404, but the bottom plate says it's a 404-2:
https://www.sm5cbw.se/hameg/hmosc/hm404-2.pdf



And the service manual here
https://elektrotanya.com/hameg_hm404-2_oscilloscope_sch.pdf/download.html#dl

[Alex Nikitin]

If you would like to learn how to use a scope properly with analogue circuits, you should definitely start with an analogue scope.  The important bit is that analogue scopes do not lie. What you see is what you get. This Hameg looks good and the price is fair for its age and condition. I still use a very similar Hameg at work for fault-finding and HV work when a 10K Tek DSO feels somewhat less expendable. At home I deal with analogue circuits almost exclusively and use a couple of old analogue Teks. I do have a DSO but it gets switched on perhaps twice in a year.

Cheers

Alex

[david77]

My personal opinion: If you're interested to learn about analog electronics I'd grab that scope if it's working and comes with probes. I don't think 100EUR is so bad for Europe. Hameg scopes are simple and usually reliable. For checking out or alining Tape decks or amps it's ideal.

You're saying you're new to scopes. I firmly believe it's easier to get to know how a scope works and how to drive it using an analog scope.
A digital scope has so many functions it could be overwhelming for a beginner.

I admit I do not know most digital handheld scopes, but what I've seen so far was mostly dreadful. Most cheap handhelds have a terrible UI and are often buggy. If you want a digital scope go for one of the entry level proper scopes that are around. Or maybe even an older HP/Agilent 516xx scope. I find those are miles ahead of e.g. a Rigol DS1054z. I've recently bought a 54621A and it has replaced the Rigol on my bench for the most part. The UI is responsive, logical and simple. It's a joy to use.

Or maybe I'm just used to analog scopes and love the green glow and the clicky knobs? YMMV. You can always flog the Hameg if you find it's not for you.

[TimFox]

I found the regular manual, the front of the scope says 404, but the bottom plate says it's a 404-2:
https://www.sm5cbw.se/hameg/hmosc/hm404-2.pdf



And the service manual here
https://elektrotanya.com/hameg_hm404-2_oscilloscope_sch.pdf/download.html#dl

Interesting that the x-ray dose is specified in "pA/kg", the SI version of the older Röntgens/sec, the measure of ionization in air, rather than in Gy/hr or Sv/hr, the SI units of dose rate (energy deposition).

[0culus]

I'd get the Hameg. If that is the article in question, looks like it is in nice shape. It will serve you well. Handheld scopes honestly kinda suck to use unless you really need one (and you don't for the stuff you mentioned)...you'll enjoy the controls of the Hameg much more.

[bdunham7]

If it is in good condition (and it looks so) and the 100€ isn't a frightful amount of money for you, go for it.  You might have been able to buy them cheaper a few years ago, but stuff like this seems to be going for a lot of money nowadays, even in junk condition.  Paying a few extra bucks for a nice one is a much better idea.

[james_s]

At least in the pictures that Hameg looks pretty nice, 100EUR sounds high to me but I know prices for used test gear in other parts of the world tend to be higher than here and the selection is more limited. I normally recommend digital, but the digital scopes you can buy new in that price range are pretty much toys, for the sort of work you want to do a good analog scope is probably a better choice at that price point. If you could afford more I'd recommend one of the Rigol or Siglent DSOs but they are going to be around 3x the price. You might see if you can talk them down a bit on price, an offer of 80EUR is probably a reasonable starting point.

[DennisCA]

Thanks for all the feedback, I put in an offer on the Hameg. I am a bit skeptical of these small handheld scopes.

Maybe some day I'll invest in a proper DSO or find a good deal on a used one, but this will hopefully be mine and serve me until that time. I note that this scope seems ot have a recall and save button, so I think it might have some digital features.

[rodpp]

In your position I would choose the Hameg too.

Look at the CT button on the lower left corner, it is a curve tracer function that some Hameg scopes have, very nice and not common to see.

[David Hess]

Handheld scopes honestly kinda suck to use unless you really need one (and you don't for the stuff you mentioned)...you'll enjoy the controls of the Hameg much more.

I would have said the same thing.  The "handheld" scopes in that price range are toys compared to a older analog oscilloscope with real 1 megohm BNC inputs.

[rf-loop]

Hello, I am looking at possibly buying a scope.

I think it could be useful when working on repairing old equipment and perhaps help me deepen my knowledge of electronics (just from finding new stuff to play with I guess).

I am currently working on things such as cassette decks and amplifiers (for my own use) and I have worked on welders. Mostly older stuff. I admist I have not yet needed a scope to fix them. I understand a scope can be good for audio purposes though, particularly for tuning a cassette player it'd be useful.

I was looking at local 2nd hand ads and found a Hameg 404 for 100€, it's a 40mhz analog scope, would this be a good beginners scope? Is the price decent?



I was also recommended to look at some of the new handheld digital scopes, such as the Mini DSO203 which is in a similar price range, but digital. Though I have read some negative stuff on this on these forums when I googled it.

Hameg seems to be german quality engineering, though it's less capable in terms of features as well as bulky (tho I have the space) and it might be of that age where it needs servicing, but seller claims it's fully functional.

I guess on an emotional l level I like the old analog CRTs (I like old tech in generaö), but I try not to let it affect my decision making.

To be honest I am open to the idea that I don't need a scope yet, maybe I should get an electronics book instead. All feedback is apprecaited though, I know a lot of beginners wanna get the next tool before they have a need for it and I might suffer from that too.

Between these two. With your description about you and your use and needs etc...
I do not think even one second between this utterly useless toy Mini DSO203 an this displayed Hameg here.
Specially if you know this Hameg is in good condition, as it looks like in this image really nice condition with display (if some test signal displayed also... then know more. ) best if you buy it in Finland locally and can check (or very trusted seller).

If/when your needs rise later, you also know more what things you need from scope your next move is buy modern real digital oscilloscope. (What recommend to do now but not The Toy, but yes, it need more money and still, these bit better analog scopes are somehow nice, specially with repair/service older things. )
With this Hameg you can in real time look everything what you have told about your needs.  With this SainSmart DSO203 toy, you come only frustrated, angry and get lesson how to loose money, they are just made for fooling money from peoples who do not know enough and do not have any experience.

( Fi: Kai olet ostamassa sitä suomalaiselta tai muuten paikallisesti suoraan jotta voit varmistua kunnosta ja ehkä yrittää tinkiäkin hinnasta!  Hamegit kuuluu oikeasti ns hyvän laadun luokkaan. Jos kunto on lähes "mint" ja mukana hyvät probet, hinta lienee lähellä oikeaa. Aikalailla suorastaan monipuolinen skooppi kun katseli user manuaalia.)

[DennisCA]

I was able to bargain it down a little, enough that it covered the shipping costs (Matkahuolto). Scope was in Oulu and I am near the Vaasa area, south of it. So it was not possible for me to test it in, but it was sold as fully functional and pictures looks like it's been well taken care of.

If am real lucky it'll be here tonight, but more likely on monday.

[DennisCA]

It did arrive today, fast shipping!

It looks to be in fine order. I watched eevblogs video on how not to blow your scope up and now i am very afraid to hook it up to anything lol - But I hooked it up to my cassette decks output (deck power plug has no earth pin), so i had something to take a photo of. As far as I can tell everything looks to be in order.

[james_s]

You shouldn't be afraid to hook it up to anything, just stay away from the mains side of anything. If the device you are testing has a switchmode power supply just stay out of the power supply entirely. If it has an iron transformer, stay on the secondary side. As long as you do that everything will be fine.

Looks like a real nice scope, I think it will serve you well. Pick up a set of P6100 probes if you don't have probes with it already, they're quite good despite their low cost.

[Fungus]

IT all looks very clean and nice. Hameg is a good brand and the on-screen measurements are a cut above the average CRT 'scope.

If it all works then I'd say it's definitely worth 100 Euros. 

[rodpp]

Thanks for posting photos of your new scope, it seems to be in mint condition, congratulations!

These cursors/on screen measurements are very handy.

If you have a diode around, try to use the scope curve tracer, pressing the CT button - "Component Tester". You should see a nice I-V curve.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

Just remember to use the 10X probes to protect the scope and get better measurements.
It is a lot harder to damage the input of a scope using a 10X probe.
When uncertain use AC coupling, DC coupling is for measuring DC volts and it will do this nicely, it is cool to see the line go up and down with change in DC volts but usually this is only used for small voltages, Like tuning volts on a PLL.... like 0-10 volts although it will measure lots more. best to use a voltmeter for higher volts.
The high input impedance of scopes makes it better in some aspects for measuring small DC than some volt ohm meters.
Try measuring DC volts on a small battery for example, to see how it works and how accurate it is.

These older low freq scopes are easier to use on audio frequencies than the computerized digital scopes. In my opinion, also much better. Just my opinion.
About the price, seems quit good even for USA. You will learn a lot. Think of how much an electronics course would cost.

For accurate traces use a probe that is matched to your input. I think your input is 20 Pico Farad. These low freq probes are cheap. If you dont have the correct probe, you will get unreliable traces.

[rf-loop]

It did arrive today, fast shipping!

It looks to be in fine order. I watched eevblogs video on how not to blow your scope up and now i am very afraid to hook it up to anything lol - But I hooked it up to my cassette decks output (deck power plug has no earth pin), so i had something to take a photo of. As far as I can tell everything looks to be in order.

It looks really good.

As shown in the attached manual, it also has a component testing function and also an RS232 remote control.

Forum member @w2aew has also made very good general instructional videos on the use of (analog) oscilloscopes. He really knows what he's doing. In addition, they are produced well and carefully and thoughtfully and calmly for easy follow and learn. Definitely in the real top class. There is enough authentic knowledge and experience and the teaching skills are good.

You can start here if you haven't already ...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/oscilloscope-training-class-(long)/msg50100/#msg50100


Attached User manual

[DennisCA]

Thanks, I'll check that out, as for the probes, I got two, one is a 1x-10x of this brand
https://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A26S45/Pintek-CP-360-Scope-Probe-60MHz-pack-10-pcs/

The other probe says Pomona minipincer and does not have a resistor at all that I can see.