Beginner scope: MSO5000, SDS1104X-E, GDS-1054B/GDS-2000E

[Antonio90]

Hello everyone. I'm a beginner hobbyist setting up an electronics lab, and yeah, I'm also looking for advice on what scope to buy, and I've been reading quite a few posts about the most popular oscilloscopes, including reviews, opinions and "feature unlocking" threads.

I already have the parts for my first project (a linear power supply with 0-30v and 5 or 10 amps max.), a few more basic components and arduinos, soldering equipment, a few leads and connectors, two DMMs, some breadboards and a boatload of wall warts and laptop power supplies. I also have one of those little 15€ scopes which claim 200Khz bandwidth but are more like 50KHz.

I'm really a beginner: don't know much more than ohm's law and Thevenin and Norton's theorems, and I have a basic intuitive grasp of what most electronic components do. In the theory department of the hobby, I'm refreshing calculus, following The Art of Electronics, and periodically looking for help and exercises in books like Practical Electronics for Inventors and a few others.

As for what is the inteded use for the scope, well, I'm mostly interested in learning about power supplies, and my plan is to try and upgrade my power supply project to have at least two independent channels and tracking switching inputs before the linear regulators. It would also be nice to add some digital controls with programmability and data-logging, but I might be way over my head. I'm not in a hurry in any way though.
After that project, or maybe starting inbetween, I would like to build an audio amplifier with an integrated DAC. Most likely it wont be very good, but I want to learn about amplifiers. That's all I have planned right now, I guess there will be more projects coming along as I continue learning.

So, provided I have never used a scope (bar some analog ones at the university 10 years ago) and I'm not really fully aware of it's capabilities, I probably cannot be specific enough, but well, I want a tool that helps me "see" how the different components work in test circuits for learning and I want to use it to learn about power supplies and audio amplifiers, and to try and design my own (with a lot of external help).

That being said, I have around 1000€ left for test equipment and I guess I would need both a scope and an AWG. I was pondering the following options:
- Rigol MSO5074. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck, has a built-in AWG and it's hackable. ~1070€ total.
- Siglent SDS1104X-E and an external AWG. 850-1000€ total, depending on the AWG I choose.
- Rigol 1054Z + external AWG. 110-120€ cheaper than the siglent, but a bit too old and most people around here recommend the siglent when in doubt between the two.
- GW INSTEK GDS-1054B or 2000E + AWG. 850-1000+€. I like the Insteks with the dedicated controls for each channel, and I've seen them used in some youtube channels and the user interface seems pretty good. The problem is that the prices ramp up pretty fast from the basic model and MDO series is out of my price range, also, I don't know if things like the FRA (which I think would be useful for the amplifier project) will work with an external AWG with a hacked GDS 1000 or 2000. Also the 1054B is a bit too pricey in Europe; in Tequipment is around 280 vs 410 in EU.
- A MICSIG with an external AWG (the one with knobs and buttons). It looks nice and has features like video recording and a pretty intuitive interface, but I don't need portability and I don't know what tradeoffs it's form factor has.

I guess that's It. Any opinion is appreciated, be it about second hand scopes, different models or no scope at all. Also I have not yet researched much about AWG, but I guess that if I choose the siglent, it should also be siglent to easily use the bode plots.

Thank you in advance.
Antonio.

[jemangedeslolos]

Hummmm you could also consider the Analog Discovery 2 wich has only 30MHz bandwith but 14bit resolution. Very usefull for audio and power supply. Comes with logic analyser, AWG, pattern generator and very limited symetric power supply but has its use

[Antonio90]

I'll have a closer look at the AD2. Tried to get the edu pricing, as I'm finishing a masters degree right now, but it's not EE related at all and they ask for a lot of information (including an instructor e-mail) so no chance. Full price seems a bit expensive per specs, but maybe it's my best bet right now. Will look in the used market.
Thanks!

[Antonio90]

Well, I have found an used one for 250€. I might try and ask for a lower price, since it's just the AD2 plus a few wires and breadboard pieces, which I don't really need. I'd have to add the BNC board, impedance analyzer and probes which would amount a total of around 315€, quite a bit less than any of the options above, but I don't know if it will be enough. Also the maximum input voltage is quite limited.
On the other hand, the "pro bundle would set me back ~440€ with 2 years warranty, but at that price I have a GDS-1054B from tequipment and 40 bucks to spare.
I'll let it sleep tonight and try to decide tomorrow. Any input on the options mentioned?

[nctnico]

Bode plot is likely a handy feature when it comes to developing amplifiers. You can quickly measure the frequency and phase response (even with different loads connected). I don't see needing a seperate AWG as a handicap since the internal AWGs in oscilloscopes are very limited anyway.

[jemangedeslolos]

With your student status, even if it's not related to electronic, you could grab the EDU discount.
You can download the Waveforms software and see by yourself all possibilities.
But you have to realise that even if it's a really good instrument, the scope side is very limited compared to a bench scope.
There are only few triggering type, little memory, only 100MS/s, 2 channels etc etc

But it meets your actual requirements so you have to compute the pros and cons and wait for others advices.

[Fungus]

With your student status, even if it's not related to electronic, you could grab the EDU discount.
You can download the Waveforms software and see by yourself all possibilities.
But you have to realise that even if it's a really good instrument, the scope side is very limited compared to a bench scope.

On the plus side you also get a logic analyzer, 14-bit ADC and some incredibly powerful software.

They look expensive for a little plastic box but the secret's in the software. If you can live with 30MHz bandwidth then they're extremely powerful devices.

[egonotto]

Hello,

perhaps a Siglent SDS1104X-E (Batronix € 510.51) and the AD2 (250€) and a wall wart for the AD2.

The AD2 is more a little lab as a scope and ideal adapted to work with breadboards.
The scope part has differential inputs, but only the input sensitivity 500mV/div and 5V/diff are native. The other input sensitivities are digital zoom.
You can than later decide if you need  BNC board and impedance analyzer for the AD2.

Best regards
egonotto



 

[pascal_sweden]

Regarding the Analog Discovery 2 and the Digital Discovery 2: They only support 3.3V voltage levels and not 5V voltage levels.

In my opinion this is a design mistake!

[Fungus]

Regarding the Analog Discovery 2 and the Digital Discovery 2: They only support 3.3V voltage levels and not 5V voltage levels.

In my opinion this is a design mistake!

All the pins are 5V tolerant.

[Gandalf_Sr]

If you want to save money, the Rigol DS1054Z is OK but it is getting old.  I recently got a Rigol MSO5074 and, as you say, it's a lot of bang for the buck and close to overkill for what your needs are but gives you a load of room to grow into it, I like the big touch screen on it plus you can use it with a wireless mouse.

You can get the MSO5074 without the (outrageously priced) LA Probe set and then build your own see my thread here on that.

The MSO5074 has an annoyance (for me) that may be solved by firmware upgrades: the HDMI out doesn't always start up properly and needs a power cycle to get it to work.

I don't represent Rigol or any other OEM and I am not making money from selling PCBs for the LA probe system, just covering my costs.

[Antonio90]

With your student status, even if it's not related to electronic, you could grab the EDU discount.
You can download the Waveforms software and see by yourself all possibilities.
But you have to realise that even if it's a really good instrument, the scope side is very limited compared to a bench scope.

On the plus side you also get a logic analyzer, 14-bit ADC and some incredibly powerful software.

They look expensive for a little plastic box but the secret's in the software. If you can live with 30MHz bandwidth then they're extremely powerful devices.

Thank you all very much for the responses.
I've been doing some research about the AD2 and now I want one: it seems like a really good learning tool and there's people using it for audio work. It looks like I was falling in the old trap of considering only the physical specs. The Waveforms suite looks great too.
I have asked for edu pricing on the spanish distributor page and I'm awaiting the response, guess it'll come in a day or two. With the edu pricing i'm guessing ~200€, which is even better than the second hand offer I found. Is it functional for measuring power supply ripple?

If you want to save money, the Rigol DS1054Z is OK but it is getting old.  I recently got a Rigol MSO5074 and, as you say, it's a lot of bang for the buck and close to overkill for what your needs are but gives you a load of room to grow into it, I like the big touch screen on it plus you can use it with a wireless mouse.

You can get the MSO5074 without the (outrageously priced) LA Probe set and then build your own see my thread here on that.

The MSO5074 has an annoyance (for me) that may be solved by firmware upgrades: the HDMI out doesn't always start up properly and needs a power cycle to get it to work.

I don't represent Rigol or any other OEM and I am not making money from selling PCBs for the LA probe system, just covering my costs.

The MSO5000 is very tempting, but it would take all my budget. The HDMI issue doesn't bother me much TBH, I have no plans to put an external monitor in the workbench, at least until I get a VESA arm for it.
I've also been reading the thread about your LA probe design, and it actually adds to the scope's versatility along with the hackability (unless they somehow fix the firmware patching). It will certainly be my first option if/when I need a LA.
Also, regarding the integrated AWG in the Rigol, how does it compare with a basic dedicated one like the Siglent SDG1032X?

Bode plot is likely a handy feature when it comes to developing amplifiers. You can quickly measure the frequency and phase response (even with different loads connected). I don't see needing a seperate AWG as a handicap since the internal AWGs in oscilloscopes are very limited anyway.

I don't think it is a handicap but, AFAIK, there are no cheap scopes in my price range that can do FRA (or Bode plots) with an external AWG except the Siglent ones so it's either a Siglent with external AWG or a scope with an integrated AWG I guess.

[Gandalf_Sr]

The Rigol MSO5074 can do Bode plots with the latest firmware update, I've attached one below. The built in dual AWG has a (severe IMHO) limitation in that it can only do 5V pk-pk and is limited to + or - 2.5V so you can't even get a 0 - 3.3V square wave out of it.  There's a project here somewhere to put a voltage doubler on it.  The Rigol DG811 ($262.26 from Tequipment with the eevBlog discount) is very good and I understand it can be 'converted' to a DG992 if you have a 'magic' USB drive; the only thing the DG8xx and DG9xx don't have is LAN.

[nctnico]

Try to measure a crystal.

[Fungus]

Thank you all very much for the responses.
I've been doing some research about the AD2 and now I want one: it seems like a really good learning tool and there's people using it for audio work. It looks like I was falling in the old trap of considering only the physical specs. The Waveforms suite looks great too.
I have asked for edu pricing on the spanish distributor page and I'm awaiting the response, guess it'll come in a day or two.

I'm getting one this month, too.

I got the educational prices last month. Don't expect miracles, it's just a small percentage discount.

I live in Spain, too, for me it will be cheaper just to buy one from mouser.es and reclaim the VAT then buying one from Digilent with the discount.

If you buy from Digilent I think they ship from the USA so you rrisk adding tax and import duties to the price. If that happens it would be more expensive than simply buying one here in Spain!

[Antonio90]

I'm getting one this month, too.

I got the educational prices last month. Don't expect miracles, it's just a small percentage discount.

I live in Spain, too, for me it will be cheaper just to buy one from mouser.es and reclaim the VAT then buying one from Digilent with the discount.

If you buy from Digilent I think they ship from the USA so you rrisk adding tax and import duties to the price. If that happens it would be more expensive than simply buying one here in Spain!

Hm, It seems I was wrong then, for some reason I thougt this would be sent from Spain: https://www.ni.com/es-es/shop/select/analog-discovery-2
Which doesn't make sense being National Instrument's page, and also the express shipping is 63€, and that is not the price of an intra european delivery.
I guess the second hand option still stands then. Wish I could reclaim the VAT too, suddenly my budget would look 21% higher, but there's no way right now.

The Rigol MSO5074 can do Bode plots with the latest firmware update, I've attached one below. The built in dual AWG has a (severe IMHO) limitation in that it can only do 5V pk-pk and is limited to + or - 2.5V so you can't even get a 0 - 3.3V square wave out of it.  There's a project here somewhere to put a voltage doubler on it.  The Rigol DG811 ($262.26 from Tequipment with the eevBlog discount) is very good and I understand it can be 'converted' to a DG992 if you have a 'magic' USB drive; the only thing the DG8xx and DG9xx don't have is LAN.

That looks like a big limitation, as I don't want to spend more than 1k (1100€ at most) and it would leave both the AWG and AD2 out for quite some time. But I don't know, maybe it's not really necessary right now.

I'm kind of thinking that the best option might be what egonotto said, the AD2 and an oscilloscope like the siglent or the Instek, which even with customs and delivery is more than a 100 bucks cheaper in tequipment.

[Antonio90]

Well, I'm now leaning toward two main options. One being the AD2 second hand + BNC adapter + Instek GDS-1054B (just under 400€ from tequipment) for around 650~680 total, included Vat and shipping. That would leave ~300€ for an AWG if the one integrated with the AD2 is not enough down the line.
The other option is a second hand MSO5000 + an "upgraded" DG811 for 1000€ + shipping, which fits into the budget just barely.
That's a tough choice TBH.

[egonotto]

The Rigol MSO5074 can do Bode plots with the latest firmware update, I've attached one below. The built in dual AWG has a (severe IMHO) limitation in that it can only do 5V pk-pk and is limited to + or - 2.5V so you can't even get a 0 - 3.3V square wave out of it.

Hallo,

do you mean this in 50 Ω or HighZ?

Best regards
egonotto

[ToThePub]

A lot of really good info in this thread.
My only input is, you want to grow into whatever scope/devices you buy.
The greatest waste of money is buying a scope that suites your needs today. As guess what, after you spend some time to grow your knowledge and use cases, the worst thing you want to realize is that you should have purchased the next step up.
The Rigol MSO5074 (as you get 4 probes compared to the 5072) is a great buy (in my opinion, as it's hackable to unlock 350Mhz + all options. I have one, so there is my bias. Not the greatest AWG but serviceable. I have the original Rigol LA probes and they work fine, but are $$$. Gandalf_Sr is creating MUCH cheaper ones which helps.)
The new Siglent SDS2000X Plus seems nice as well (hackable etc, higher freq & higher AWG compared to the mso5000 if you buy the SDS2354X Plus it seems (? not sure if the front end is the same), but that is way out of your price range.)

It doesn't matter what you buy, just decide if you are serious or not and grow into the scope/equipment you buy.
If you want to just mess around, and there is nothing wrong with that, just get the cheapest thing you can that suites your needs.
The Rigol DS1054Z is an awesome scope for the money (I have one of those as well, somewhere in a cupboard, hackable etc).
The GW Instek's.. People complain (so do I) about Rigol firmware and slow updates.. If you get any update to a GW Instek you are doing good.
 
Decide if you are serious or not and listen to the smart people on eevblog. If you are serous though, my only recommendation is to spend the extra now rather than working out pretty quickly you have just wasted XXX dollars and need to buy something else.
I know that's not really helpful, especially in the current global situation, but I would rather save up for a few months more to buy the next step up, than rush into it.
Enjoy!

ToThePub.

[Fungus]

If you get any update to a GW Instek you are doing good.

Everybody who owns one says they don't need updates, they just work.

Plus Instek just released a free update to add serial decoders and a spectrum analyzer. I don't think anybody can complain about that.

[2N3055]

.....
The built in dual AWG has a (severe IMHO) limitation in that it can only do 5V pk-pk and is limited to + or - 2.5V so you can't even get a 0 - 3.3V square wave out of it.  ...........................................................

That is actually quite good. WGs on scopes are all limited with output amplitude.

MSO5000 has +-5 HiZ and +-2,5V 50 Ohm.
Siglent SDS2000X+ has  +-3V HiZ or +-1,5V 50 OHm
Keysight MSOX3000T has +-2,5V HiZ or +-1,25V 50 OHm
R&S RTB2000 has +-5 HiZ and +-2,5V 50 Ohm.
R&S RTM3000 is little better that the bunch: +-10 HiZ and +-5V 50 Ohm. But that is still half of what standalone gen will do.

So Keysight, where license to unlock cost as much as complete small scope, has worst amplitude..

That is why we usually recommend people that it pays to buy external siggen.
Built in siggens are great for FRA and small signal ( like testing amplifiers, which is, really, most of the use for many people).

Those who use it like I do, as a proper general purpose R&D instrument need to buy proper standalone AWG.

[Gandalf_Sr]

I didn't realize that the built in AWGs, even on the high end, are all so limited in amplitude. My previous comment about not being able to get a 0 - 3.3V logic signal is actually wrong; the +2.5 limit is for a 50 input and changes to +5V (which makes a lot more sense) if you're feeding a hi impedance input - all logic inputs I've ever worked with are very hi impedance.

I own a Keysight MSOX4054A (which I'm trying to sell on eBay) but, apart from the fact that it's a 500MHz scope, has a slightly larger screen and a few extra serial formats (I was lucky enough to buy it with the full App bundle), it really doesn't do much more than the MSO5074 does (for my needs) and the resolution on the MSO5074 screen is better - the Keysight has the annoying aspect that you can't make all the menus disappear so the actual trace area on the screen is stuck as a window inside the bigger screen.

I think ToThePub's advice is spot on though, if you're serious about getting into electronics and can stretch your budget to get the higher end stuff, you can grow into it.  The $300 scopes will work for tinkering but have their limitations.

[tautech]

...................
The new Siglent SDS2000X Plus seems nice as well (hackable etc, higher freq & higher AWG compared to the mso5000 if you buy the SDS2354X Plus it seems (? not sure if the front end is the same), but that is way out of your price range.)

It is:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3087116/#msg3087116

[IamSynthetiC]

I'll try to chime in too.

I am an electronics hobbyist aswell, designing and building things to suit my needs, take care of problems, or just for the hell of it.
From my experience, the necessary tools to have on your bench are a good multimeter (or two), and an osciloscope. You can make do without the others.

I personally invested very early on then MSO5074, and i too was skeptical at first of its big pricetag and worth.
As several other users have previously mentioned, you want to grow into your scope, you do not want its current limitations to be your future limitations, and a good tool is almost always worth it.

It is my opinion, that you go for something like the MSO5074, or the new Siglent one. These scopes are proven and reliable (and hackable), and offer you enough features and specs to grow upon. I peronally dont regret bying the MSO5074 and i am even glad i did.

[fkfaraz]

Hi

I hope u all will be fine.

Please don't mind but why are u people not discussing the micsig o'scope? is it not a good bench scope(the knob version)

now i understand that rigol or siglent is popular beginner brand here but micsig is also a good one too.

P.s: i am interested in micsig as a begginer so i would like to see some discussion here..


thanks and take care.....