Agilent MSO7000 series opinions wanted

[Sailor]

It's more than 40 years since I even touched an Agilent scope - it's been Tektronix all the way, and at work for the last 5 or 6 years I've been using a MSO4034 with the 10M memory option. It's good, but over the years I've told myself a number of times that I wouldn't buy one for home. Recently Emona Instruments have been good enough to let me have a Rigol MSO4034 to evaluate, and without a doubt there are many good features to be had for a very reasonable price, BUT, I think a couple of other aspects might have me chucking it against a brick wall (either that or me bashing my head against said wall). I don't know, maybe I need to re-consider the way that I am using/evaluating it. In general, the hassles arise from the extreme memory depth (tremendously useful for debugging) and the agonizingly slow firmware processing of that memory.

Anyway, this has led to me wondering about spending 7K on the Rigol or putting up a few extra K to get a used Agilent MSO7054B. Trouble is, I don't know anyone who owns one, or who has even touched one. Only 8M of memory troubles me a bit... even the Tektronix has 10M.

I know that asking for scope opinions (compiler opinions, microprocessor opinions, etc etc) is an open invitation to a no-holds-barred verbal war, but please... don't!

If someone has EXTENSIVE, HANDS-ON, DAY-TO-DAY experience with a 7000 series instrument and would like to share their dislikes, reservations, or its (perceived) shortcomings, I would greatly appreciate hearing about it. To my mind datasheets and user manuals are very much like 'Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics'.

ALSO, anyone who has plenty of day-to-day experience using a Rigol 4000 series...

Thanks, Sailor

[mikeselectricstuff]

The 5000, 6000 and 7000  are very similar - the main difference is screen size.
I've been using a MSO 6034A daily since it was a new product about 10 years ago.
I would say go for a used Agilent over a new Rigol - performance, useability and reliability are excellent - the software is very mature with no noticeable issues.The UI is very well designed and a pleasure to use.
If my 6000 died terminally today It's highly likely I'd replace it with the same model - I've not seen anything in newer models that would be persuasive enough to change.

The slam-dunk is that the 5/6/7000 options are fully hacked, and if you're not comfortable with that, you can get free trials from the Agilent website that last forever if you set the date back. I think even MSO is available as a trial, so you can widen your search to the DSO model. 

Just be aware that the decodes are only supported on models with 4 analogue channels. The decodes are awesome - no slowdown and can do stuff like dump logged datastreams to file with timestamps.
Keep an eye on Agilent's used ebay store - they are often amenable to offers, you can usually get at least 10% off the listed price.








 

[Sailor]

Thanks for that. I've noticed a lot of second-hand 6000 series on ebay, I guess it was the small screen (and hence implied age) that has made me look to the larger screen of the 7000. The Tek 4034 has a 10.6" screen, and I've really noticed it on the smaller Rigol. The 6000 must be difficult when you have digital channels as well... does it have an output for an external monitor? I hooked up a 19" monitor to the Rigol, and while it was much better for signal readability, the disconnect between eyes and hands might take a bit of getting used to.

Do you do much digital debugging work with the 6000?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Thanks for that. I've noticed a lot of second-hand 6000 series on ebay, I guess it was the small screen (and hence implied age) that has made me look to the larger screen of the 7000. The Tek 4034 has a 10.6" screen, and I've really noticed it on the smaller Rigol. The 6000 must be difficult when you have digital channels as well... does it have an output for an external monitor? I hooked up a 19" monitor to the Rigol, and while it was much better for signal readability, the disconnect between eyes and hands might take a bit of getting used to.

Do you do much digital debugging work with the 6000?

I don't find the screen size an issue - if anything I think the larger overall size would get in the way sometimes - it is 1Kx768, and you can connect an external monitor - bench space/logistics would dictate what the optimal solution is for you.

I do all sorts of stuff, including some very complex debugging  and reverse engineering of both hardware and software - since I got the serial decodes and segmented memory I can't think of much that  is lacking - maybe only the lack of a push-to-zero on the time knob - I think the 7000 has this.

[alex.forencich]

I have an MSO7104A at home and an MSO7104B in the lab.  They are excellent scopes.  The form factor is very nice as they are exceptionally shallow.  Well, I suppose it depends on what you compare it to.  They are only like 6 or 7 inches deep, so you can actually put one front-and-center on your workbench, across from wharever it is you are working on, as opposed to off to the side, like you would need to for an Infiniium class scope. 

The extra large screen is one of its best features.  It's far less cluttered when you have to have analog and digital traces on the display at the same time, and when you turn on the zoom function it's still very readable.  Interestingly, the specs on the 7000 in terms of display resolution and memory depth are better than those of the 4000 series, which IMHO is quite lame. 

In terms of the serial decoding, it is implemented in hardware and so there is no delay in the serial decode beyond the time required to capture the trace.  This is not the case in Tektronix scopes, the decoding in these is done after the capture in software and can take several seconds if deep memory is enabled.  The scopes also support segmented memory, so you can capture multiple packets or transactions while ignoring the dead time in between.  On the other hand, the 7000 series only lets you use one decoder at a time.  This may or may not be a deak breaker for you, depending on your requirements. 

Now, the differences between the 7000A and the 7000B:

The only difference is the front panel.  Yep.  They use the exact same mainboard and the exact same firmware.  The only differences are the addition of the 'back' button on the lower left corner of the display, the rearranging of the front panel controls on the right side, and the navigate function.  All of the knobs on the 7000B are pushable, vs. only 2 on the 7000A (general purpose adjustment knob and the digital trace knob).  If you 'back' out of all of the menus on the 7000B, then it will display a channel summary thing on the bottom, similar to the MSO-X series scopes.  You can't do this on the A because there is no 'back' button.  They also removed some of the channel indicator lights on te B series, it only has a 50 ohm light as opposed to BW limit, AC coupling, and 50 ohms.  They also added buttons for the search and navigate functions.  I haven't used these myself (even though I have access to a 7000B), so I cannot comment on how useful they are.  I think the button arrangement on the B series unit is far more logical and useful, but I don't think it's a few grand extra. 

[alex.forencich]

Also, I would suggest buying a DSO7000 (ideally DSO7104) and then enabling the MSO option from the service menu.  Then all you need to do is buy the MSO probe, either 54620-68701 (kit) or 54620-61601. 

Here is how you enable the service menu:

telnet <ip> 5810
username panther
password pictures

-> cmd
[vxWorks]# mem modify -w 1 0x009A2187
0x009a2187:  0x00-0x01
0x009a2188:  0x00-.

utility -> options -> licenses -> options
enable 'service mode', 'all licenses', and 'mso'
reboot scope

[free_electron]

i have a MSO7104A at home.
i also have a MSA-X4024 at work ( the new 4000 series.)

i like the 7x better. the 4x is nice with touchscreen and all but the 7x 'feels' speedier in operation

[HighVoltage]

I just looked in to the different models of the 7000 series and noticed also the DSO7104A and DSO7104B
Is there a big difference between the model updates.
If one would consider buying one, is there an advantage of the A or B models over the first release?

Thanks for any advise

[mikeselectricstuff]

Also, I would suggest buying a DSO7000 (ideally DSO7104) and then enabling the MSO option from the service menu.  Then all you need to do is buy the MSO probe, either 54620-68701 (kit) or 54620-61601. 

Here is how you enable the service menu:

telnet <ip> 5810
username panther
password pictures

-> cmd
[vxWorks]# mem modify -w 1 0x009A2187
0x009a2187:  0x00-0x01
0x009a2188:  0x00-.

utility -> options -> licenses -> options
enable 'service mode', 'all licenses', and 'mso'
reboot scope

I don't think service mode doesn't enable all licenses - I think it's just the ones that allow hardware to be tested like memory and MSO. See This thread for info on a hack that allows all licenses to be installed.

[alex.forencich]

I just looked in to the different models of the 7000 series and noticed also the DSO7104A and DSO7104B
Is there a big difference between the model updates.
If one would consider buying one, is there an advantage of the A or B models over the first release?

Thanks for any advise

They rearranged the front panel controls and added a 'search' feature.  The mainboard and firmware are identical between the A and B series.  I think the B series has a more intuitive control panel, but it may not be worth the price difference.  If you can get a B series cheap, go for it.  But there is no significant advantage over an A series. 

[alex.forencich]

Also, I would suggest buying a DSO7000 (ideally DSO7104) and then enabling the MSO option from the service menu.  Then all you need to do is buy the MSO probe, either 54620-68701 (kit) or 54620-61601. 

Here is how you enable the service menu:

telnet <ip> 5810
username panther
password pictures

-> cmd
[vxWorks]# mem modify -w 1 0x009A2187
0x009a2187:  0x00-0x01
0x009a2188:  0x00-.

utility -> options -> licenses -> options
enable 'service mode', 'all licenses', and 'mso'
reboot scope

I don't think service mode doesn't enable all licenses - I think it's just the ones that allow hardware to be tested like memory and MSO. See This thread for info on a hack that allows all licenses to be installed.

As far as I can tell, it does.  The service menu on my 7104 lists the following options:

Verbose
Service mode
Diagnostics
Power-on default setup
Messag diagnostics
String database diagnostics
Control message diagnostics
All licenses
MSO
Factory MSO
Acq memory = 2M
Acq memory = 8M
Acq memory = MAX

Before enabling all options, my license string is:

MSO, mem8M, LSS, SEC, 232, SGM, LMT, MST, A00

After enabling all options, my license string becomes:

All*, MSO, MSO*, FPG*, memMax*, LSS, AMS*, CAN*, SEC, ALT*, PWR*, 232, SGM, LMT, FRC*, MST, E00, SND*, FLX*, 553*

I will check the MSO7104B later to see what its new license string is, and which options appear to be enabled (namely, SGM and 232, it has the LSS license already)

Now, I did see something about circular segmented memory, which this does not enable (as far as I can tell).  However, the telnet method is basiclly zero risk.  I was unable to get the patch method working, and bricked my scope in the procces (manually reset it after it did not reset itself after waiting 10 minutes or so, and it didn't boot up afterwards).  Fortunately, it is now un-bricked, but I am not going to try that again anytime soon. 

Edit: from looking at an ebay auction wih an 'all options enabled' screenshot, it looks like anything the 'all licenses' enables has a * after it, and anything that was previously enabled does not have a *.  The options string on that MSO6014A is:

All, MSO, MSO*, FPG*, memMax*, LSS*, AMS*, CAN*, BAT, ALT*, PWR*, 232*, SGM*, LMT*, FRC*, MST, E00, SND*, FLX*, 553*

So it will enable all of the 'standard' options, without any risky patching.  And it can be disabled from the scope interface directly if you need to send it in for servicing, just un-tick 'service mode'. 

[HighVoltage]

I just looked in to the different models of the 7000 series and noticed also the DSO7104A and DSO7104B
Is there a big difference between the model updates.
If one would consider buying one, is there an advantage of the A or B models over the first release?

Thanks for any advise

They rearranged the front panel controls and added a 'search' feature.  The mainboard and firmware are identical between the A and B series.  I think the B series has a more intuitive control panel, but it may not be worth the price difference.  If you can get a B series cheap, go for it.  But there is no significant advantage over an A series.

Thank you.
Can you confirm that the license hack also works on the later B Series models?
And one more question, what would be an acceptable price for a good A or B series?

[JackOfVA]

Tried it with my 7034B.  No problem logging in with Telnet, but two of the commands that appear to enter the memory data yield a syntax error.

I know nothing at all about VxWorks, so I imagine I have made some error in entering the data.


-> # MEM MODIFY -W 1 0X009A2187
-> 0X009A2187: 0X00-0X01
C interp: syntax error.
-> 0X009A2188: 0X00-.
C interp: syntax error.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Tried it with my 7034B.  No problem logging in with Telnet, but two of the commands that appear to enter the memory data yield a syntax error.

I know nothing at all about VxWorks, so I imagine I have made some error in entering the data.


-> # MEM MODIFY -W 1 0X009A2187
-> 0X009A2187: 0X00-0X01
C interp: syntax error.
-> 0X009A2188: 0X00-.
C interp: syntax error.

The 5/6000 and 7000 have different firmware - are you sure that tweak was for the 7000?
Also, bear in mind that tweaks like this are probably firmware version dependent

[mikeselectricstuff]

Now, I did see something about circular segmented memory, which this does not enable (as far as I can tell).  However, the telnet method is basiclly zero risk.  I was unable to get the patch method working, and bricked my scope in the procces (manually reset it after it did not reset itself after waiting 10 minutes or so, and it didn't boot up afterwards).  Fortunately, it is now un-bricked, but I am not going to try that again anytime soon. 

It is possible to soft-load firmware, which can be used both to safely play with hacked FW, and recover from bad FW programmed into flash.
Basically you power it off during boot, when only one LED is left on.
On the next boot will look for a firmware image on the USB stick, which it will load to RAM and execute. Helps to use a USB stick that has a LED so you can see it doing something.
I'm not sure if anyone on the other thread has tried the license hack on a 7000 yet, but  there was a seperate 7000 patch listed. After the initial patch was published, activity turned to the so-far fruitless search for the possibility of decodes on 2-channel scopes and increasing x03x bandwidth to 500MHz.
One nonstandard feature that can be enabled is circular segmented memory on the 5/6000 - I think this is only an official option on the 7000

Basically once you have installed FW with this patch, you can then install any license with just the 3-letter license string and zeros for the key.

[Carrington]

I know nothing at all about VxWorks, so I imagine I have made some error in entering the data.

Please switch to cmd mode first.

Type:
->cmd

[alex.forencich]

Tried it with my 7034B.  No problem logging in with Telnet, but two of the commands that appear to enter the memory data yield a syntax error.

I know nothing at all about VxWorks, so I imagine I have made some error in entering the data.


-> # MEM MODIFY -W 1 0X009A2187
-> 0X009A2187: 0X00-0X01
C interp: syntax error.
-> 0X009A2188: 0X00-.
C interp: syntax error.

You missed a line.  You have to type cmd at the -> prompt, then it becomes [vxWorks]# and you can type the mem modify command. 

I just copied out what was on my terminal after performing all of the operations.  You actualy don't need to type most of that.  This is all you need to do:

telnet in, enter username and password
at -> prompt, type

cmd

then press enter.  At [vxWorks]# prompt, type

mem modify -w 1 0x009A2187

then press enter.  Then type 0x01 and press enter again.  Then type . and press enter again.  Then open up the service menu on the scope, and enable service mode, and any other options you like.  Reboot scope.  Done. 

[alex.forencich]

Now, I did see something about circular segmented memory, which this does not enable (as far as I can tell).  However, the telnet method is basiclly zero risk.  I was unable to get the patch method working, and bricked my scope in the procces (manually reset it after it did not reset itself after waiting 10 minutes or so, and it didn't boot up afterwards).  Fortunately, it is now un-bricked, but I am not going to try that again anytime soon. 

It is possible to soft-load firmware, which can be used both to safely play with hacked FW, and recover from bad FW programmed into flash.
Basically you power it off during boot, when only one LED is left on.
On the next boot will look for a firmware image on the USB stick, which it will load to RAM and execute. Helps to use a USB stick that has a LED so you can see it doing something.
I'm not sure if anyone on the other thread has tried the license hack on a 7000 yet, but  there was a seperate 7000 patch listed. After the initial patch was published, activity turned to the so-far fruitless search for the possibility of decodes on 2-channel scopes and increasing x03x bandwidth to 500MHz.
One nonstandard feature that can be enabled is circular segmented memory on the 5/6000 - I think this is only an official option on the 7000

Basically once you have installed FW with this patch, you can then install any license with just the 3-letter license string and zeros for the key.

Yeah, that's what I think happened to un-brick the unit.  I always have a flash drive plugged in to the back of my scope to save traces, screenshots, and setups due to the SEC module that came installed on the scope (BTW, one nice thing about the SEC module is the scope always boots up in the default setup).  I forgot about this when I tried to install the patched firmware, and I plugged in a second flash drive to the front.  I managed to start the update process, but the scope seemed to hang on 'do not turn off the power, your scope will reboot automatically' message, so I turned it off and back on after 10 minutes.  It did not boot up.  So, in a desparate attempt to revive it, I put the original firmware image back on the flash drive and plugged it into the scope.  This time I also removed the extra drive in the back, and the scope booted up.  So I ran the update procedure again with the orignal firmware, and it seems to be back to normal.  I have not tried the patched firmware since as the telnet method worked perfectly and there appears to be no risk of bricking the scope.  I did not perform any further experiments to determine if the extra flash drive had anything to do with the failure of the patched firmware install. 

Also, the circular segmented memory is not an official option on any scope as far as I know.  Do you have any information on how that works?  Is it useful enough to attempt installing the patched firmware? 

[mikeselectricstuff]

[quote author=alex.forencich link=topic=28430.msg409179#msg409179
Yeah, that's what I think happened to un-brick the unit.  I always have a flash drive plugged in to the back of my scope to save traces, screenshots, and setups due to the SEC module that came installed on the scope (BTW, one nice thing about the SEC module is the scope always boots up in the default setup).
[/quote]
You know that despite what Agilent say, you can remove this - there is a post in the 5/6/7000 hack thread

Also, the circular segmented memory is not an official option on any scope as far as I know.  Do you have any information on how that works?  Is it useful enough to attempt installing the patched firmware?

I've only had a brief play, but it appears to do what you'd expect - instead of triggering for <n> segments and then stopping, it keeps triggering until manually stopped, at which point it has the last <n> segments stored. I can certainly envisage scenarios where it could be useful.

[alex.forencich]

Yeah, that's what I think happened to un-brick the unit.  I always have a flash drive plugged in to the back of my scope to save traces, screenshots, and setups due to the SEC module that came installed on the scope (BTW, one nice thing about the SEC module is the scope always boots up in the default setup).

You know that despite what Agilent say, you can remove this - there is a post in the 5/6/7000 hack thread

Also, the circular segmented memory is not an official option on any scope as far as I know.  Do you have any information on how that works?  Is it useful enough to attempt installing the patched firmware?

I've only had a brief play, but it appears to do what you'd expect - instead of triggering for <n> segments and then stopping, it keeps triggering until manually stopped, at which point it has the last <n> segments stored. I can certainly envisage scenarios where it could be useful.

I could remove SEC, but I actually kinda like the fact that the scope always boots up into the default state.  And it forces me to give reasonable names to saved setups, and I can save setup data, screenshots, and trace data in folders on the connected flash drive.  I actually got a really low profile flash drive specifically to use with the scope so that it won't get damaged while hanging out on the back panel.  The only thing missing is a way to create folders on the flash drive through the scope interface.  Right now I have to pull out the drive, plug it into my computer, create a new folder, and then put it back in the scope.  Not a huge deal, but not all that convenient.  More recently, I have just been using Python IVI and ipython to save setups, screenshots, and data directly to my computer over an Ethernet or Wifi connection, without any need for the sneakernet. 

[rfbroadband]

Sailor,
if you are considering spending 7K$ + a 'few k$' I strongly suggest you look at a used R&S RTO1004 (600MHz) (there is currently one on ebay).

- 600MHz bandwidth, 4 channels
- 10 GS/s
-  80MSample memory depth on 1 channel standard (40MSample on 2 etc)
- best FFT of any scope on the market. period. You effectively get 4 low end spectrum analyzers for free with almost 100dB dynamic range
- the math functions are extremely fast (incl FFT), because they are done in hardware (custom AISC) and not in software
- 1 Mio waveforms / sec update rate
- variety of digital trigger and demod options available (the ebay unit has already I2C,SPI, RS232, UART installed)
- 16 channel 400MHz mixed signal option available (incl. state machine mode)

I am using the RTO now for one year, have used Tek and Agilent for > 15 years and can honestly say the RTO is a game changer for scopes.

IF you are willing to spend that much money, you owe it to yourself to at least evaluate the RTO.

[JackOfVA]

Alex - Thanks - your shortened instruction set works perfectly.

[Sailor]

@rfbroadband
Thanks for pointing out the R&S, it certainly sounds nice. I d/l the User Manual and had a good read, but in the end it was just too much money - over US$11,000, and that's without the logic channels option. The standard memory is good, and the expansion would be even better. But I'll bet it would be expensive...

[Neganur]

I think the RTM2000 series is a good alternative to the RTO1004, with the main differences being the FFT (no RBW setting but very good still) and no touch (and thereby the way the RTO was meant to be operated). Sample rates are equal or  correspond to the Agilent 5000-7000 and memory is at least 10 MPts for the three R&S models. The RTE is newer than the RTO and offers a similar UI as the RTO but with less bandwidth. If you can live with say 200 MHz, perhaps this one is worth having a closer look.

You cannot upgrade the bandwidth on the RTM beyond 500 MHz. The RTM options are quite affordable, and the probes are cheaper too (though less bandwidth) Specs are very similar, low noise, good FFT, excellent MSO functions.

The hardware and software options for the RTE and RTO sum up pretty fast and the higher bandwidth accessories are very expensive too (active probes). The RTM's options  are very affordable.  The RTE and RTO seem to have very good user interfaces (but very different from Agilent's 5000-7000 style).

Here's the best overview I could find that summarises and compares the features of the R&S / Hameg models: http://value.rohde-schwarz.com/vi/value/oscilloscopes.html

My opinion regarding the Agilent vs. R&S is:

I don't know if you need the MSO capabilities, but they're all very expensive in the R&S scopes.
if you need the bandwidth, you can get an affordable (used or refurbished) DSO/MSO6104 and do some magic with the options, as described by others here.
if you need a very good analogue front end, the R&S have the edge, but you pay top $ for the high bandwidth models.

if you don't need the bandwidth, and you're not looking at mili volts all day, you get an incredible scope for a good price with the agilent 6000 series that you can option up for no additional cost.
a good option vs a DSO6034 is for example the RTM 2034, you should be able to get it with the mixed signal option for around $7k if you ask directly at R&S, whereas the Agilent used store will have killer deals for a DSO5054A ($3k) or the MSO6104A ($7k, though beware - watch out for those with the battery option pre-installed)

[Sailor]

Thanks Neganur for a very succinct summary of some alternatives. In general I'm not normally using the scope on signals below 20-30mV, and spectrum analysis requirements are quite crude, so while the R&S gear certainly reads well, I think that my immediate future will centre around an Agilent.  Nevertheless, it has been interesting to read opinions and manuals on other brands that I wouldn't have normally considered. Thank you very much for the time and thought that you obviously put into your reply.

PS What did you mean 'beware - watch out for those with the battery option pre-installed?