Advice on ESR meter, I've seen all chinese stuff on ebay..

[mos6502]

Why are you so jumpy? Relax. Take a chill pill. 0.5Vrms is the open circuit voltage. With a DUT connected, it will be much lower. In circuit testing works just as well/bad as ESR meters.

Not many circuits have electrolytics in parallel with pn junctions anyway. Especially not SMPS.

Regardless, I still wouldn't rely on in circuit testing for reasons stated in one of my previous posts.

[kripton2035]

Hi pedro so this well means that It's mandatory to discharge all caps or at least test them if they're charged before testing for any nominal value such as ESR or D or whatever with the DE-5000?.

all LCR meters are made for precision measurements and I've never seen one that discharged caps before measuring - it's the tech job to do that before measuring. if your goal is to measure lots of caps in circuit to find bad caps that have bad esr then an esr meter with protection and discharge is made for you. but a good esr meter you buy (not DIY) is almost as expensive than the deree 5000 lcr meter but with this one you have to discharge the caps first. you choose.

By the way I've been checking for other LCR meters and they're way more expensive than the DE-5000 why is that? It's weird casue this instrument its made in japan and I suppose it's well quality made and tuned.

there is a family of lcr meter that recently came out. they are all based on a cyrustek chip ES51919 and ES51920 and their main caracteristic is they are cheap because of that chip that does most of the job. IET first came out with the DE5000 around $500 but with calibration and certificates and IET notoriety... then clones came out for less than $150 and the der ee 5000 at $80 is an almost exact IET clone except the calibration and certificates which can be necessary for some people.

[dssence]

Hi pedro so this well means that It's mandatory to discharge all caps or at least test them if they're charged before testing for any nominal value such as ESR or D or whatever with the DE-5000?.

all LCR meters are made for precision measurements and I've never seen one that discharged caps before measuring - it's the tech job to do that before measuring. if your goal is to measure lots of caps in circuit to find bad caps that have bad esr then an esr meter with protection and discharge is made for you. but a good esr meter you buy (not DIY) is almost as expensive than the deree 5000 lcr meter but with this one you have to discharge the caps first. you choose.

By the way I've been checking for other LCR meters and they're way more expensive than the DE-5000 why is that? It's weird casue this instrument its made in japan and I suppose it's well quality made and tuned.

there is a family of lcr meter that recently came out. they are all based on a cyrustek chip ES51919 and ES51920 and their main caracteristic is they are cheap because of that chip that does most of the job. IET first came out with the DE5000 around $500 but with calibration and certificates and IET notoriety... then clones came out for less than $150 and the der ee 5000 at $80 is an almost exact IET clone except the calibration and certificates which can be necessary for some people.

 Such a complete answer, thanks so much.  Yes that's what I was thinking spending so much money on Blue ESR which is made for that specific task of discarding bad caps checking ESR , I think it's not worth taking into account the DE-5000 it's a proffesional grade instrument which would add up to my bench stuff.
    So you say with blue ESR the device itself discharges the cap if it's charged with dc voltage? . With the DE-5000,before I would be discharging the caps myself with a 2k resistor 5watts normally.
      I own a digital meter MS8221C which is handy for most situations , but I find it kind of slow when autoranging to check resistor values and in some other ocassions.  Are there any fluke similar dmm similar to the specs of my 8221C worth taking a look. And I've seen from these guys from DER an analog meter which I don't have an advice?

[PA4TIM]

Hi pedro so this well means that It's mandatory to discharge all caps or at least test them if they're charged before testing for any nominal value such as ESR or D or whatever with the DE-5000?.  By the way I've been checking for other LCR meters and they're way more expensive than the DE-5000 why is that? It's weird casue this instrument its made in japan and I suppose it's well quality made and tuned.

I think you need to read more carefull and try to understand what is written here instead of jumping around like an overstressed bunny    . It is said before, this meter is sold from Japan but made in Taiwan. That shipping location does not mean a thing regarding quality.

There are some people who had some problems when they got the DER DE-5000 so it looks like  DER does not test it's gear very good. IET does test the items shipped (and ships from the USA) but is much more expensive. It is a very good instrument, They even offer NIST cal for it. I have the IET version abnd I like it very much.

I think it would be wise to buy a good book about electronics and read that before you go on and fry your LCR meter. I think in your case one of the simple , cheap, idot proof, ESR meters would have been a better and safer choise. The DE-5000 is much better but you must understand how LCR meters work and how to read data and use them. And I doubt if you can. But do not worry,  many people have no clue about LCR basics, like the difference between Cp and Cs, or between impedance and reactance, not to talk about things like admittance, susceptance an conductance, DF, Q, loss angle, polar vs rectangular etc etc.

[fpliuzzi]

    ... So you say with blue ESR the device itself discharges the cap if it's charged with dc voltage? . With the DE-5000,before I would be discharging the caps myself with a 2k resistor 5watts normally ...

Hello,
I own the original ESR meter designed by Bob Parker. This meter (and the Blue version) do not automatically discharge capacitors before they take their reading. Here is the cautionary wording in the user's manual for the Blue ESR meter...

"Beware charged capacitors:
The very first thing to do is to make certain that the equipment you’ll be using the ESR Meter on is disconnected from all power. Most electrolytic capacitors will be discharged by the circuitry around them within a few seconds of the power being switched off. However, be warned that filter capacitors in power supplies can remain dangerously charged, especially if there’s a fault. Before using the meter, make sure that all power supply capacitors are fully discharged. You can do this using well-insulated probes that include a series 100? 5W or similar power resistor. Do not just short the capacitor’s terminals together as that can not only damage the capacitor but can also be dangerous. Always allow several seconds to ensure a complete discharge. Apart from the risk of surprise and injury to you, large charged capacitors can seriously damage the meter."

I've had my ESR meter for quite a few years now and never had a mishap. I'll be getting a DER EE DE-5000 in a few days and will try to be equally mindful of what I attach it to.

Regards

[kripton2035]

in the video at the first page of this thread they show the blue meter measuring a charged cap without problem, but it's a 35v charging, not a 400v ... the peak atlas esr meter discharges effectively the caps.

[AllanMN]

And if it does not run, I desolder the caps, reform them, test for leakage, capacitance , D and ESR.

Could you say, or point to, more information about reforming caps?  All I know is "sometimes"  it works to s--l--o--w--l--y (hours? days?) raise the voltage on "old" caps that haven't seen voltage for "years" to get them back into shape. Is there a basic recipe to follow? i.e. 0 to 100% WVDC in 4 one day steps of 25%?

I asked about this after arcing out two big caps in a Lambda power supply here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/big-old-lambda-ps-60v15a-les-f-04-0v

At $35 NOS, it would be nice to save them!

Allan

[mos6502]

There's a procedure outlined in the attached document.

[PA4TIM]

I have a page about reforming including how to build one.

http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=1385

[mos6502]

Here is the document that was referenced in the thesis above:

http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Downloads/MilSpec/Docs/MIL-HDBK-1131/hb1131.pdf

Essentially, hook the cap up to a power supply that is limited to 5 mA per cap.

[casinada]

I own the Peak Atlas ESR 70. It discharges capacitors if they're charged but only to 50V. You can download the manual or read the many reviews in the blog or youtube. It is made in England and the quality is very good. It is a very specific piece of equipment, so is not an LCR meter but is designed to do what is supposed to. Many blog members own it and as far as I can tell they're happy with the device. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of tools you might need if you repair electronic equipment very often. There are many methods to measure ESR but the best one is the quickest and simplest. As mentioned before, it is not always possible to measure a capacitor capacitance and it's ESR in circuit.

http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html

[kripton2035]

What about the Applent AT824? Mike reviewed one and said it was quite good. Only a little more expensive than the DE-5000 but does a lot more.

really more expensive than the der ee 50000 (twice the price) and mike said that the user interface is absolutely awful
you can choose it if you want ...

[mos6502]

What about the Applent AT824? Mike reviewed one and said it was quite good. Only a little more expensive than the DE-5000 but does a lot more.

The DE 5000 does 100Hz, 120Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz and 100kHz.

The AT824 only does 100Hz, 120Hz and 1kHz. The AT825 adds 10kHz. But they're both the same price, about twice that of the DE 5000. Only the AT826 does 100kHz, at three times the price of the DE 5000.

[kripton2035]

Four wire sense...

der ee 5000 has 4 wires sense too !

[PA4TIM]

I never used one of my ESR meters that way. I never measure C or ESR in situ. I use classic tools like a scope and multimeter. If I check caps, most for instruments used not oveer a long time, I look at DF, not ESR.

However I did do tests on caps measured in situ and measured desoldered and results were rather bad. You can often find the really bad caps. Many good caps seemed to show a higher ESR as desoldered but that is no problem better replace some to be sure as miss some, but the scary part was that several bad caps measured right in situ.

But for the beginners and other people with not much experience or knowledge in fauld finding with a scope or multimeter, the ESR meter can be handy tool and the only way to solve a problem. 

[AllanMN]

I never used one of my ESR meters that way. I never measure C or ESR in situ. I use classic tools like a scope and multimeter. If I check caps, most for instruments used not oveer a long time, I look at DF, not ESR.

However I did do tests on caps measured in situ and measured desoldered and results were rather bad. You can often find the really bad caps. Many good caps seemed to show a higher ESR as desoldered but that is no problem better replace some to be sure as miss some, but the scary part was that several bad caps measured right in situ.

But for the beginners and other people with not much experience or knowledge in fauld finding with a scope or multimeter, the ESR meter can be handy tool and the only way to solve a problem.

I've been trying to better my repair skills and as I see it, if you know (or can guess) the function of a cap in circuit, you can look at a scope on it and recognize if it's performing it's function there, therefore good/bad. You probably need a schematic/parts layout but perhaps can just go from a block diagram knowledge  of the device and guessing. Also, a lot of "tricks"/experience knowing what components fail most often and how (their failure mode).

I like your idea to try ESR in situ and compare to results when removed to understand better what it's good for.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience here!

[linux-works]

after having a pretty bad experience with the well known chinese ESR/cap meter (it just stopped working entirely on its own after NO use, no measurement of actual devices) I cannot recommend the chinese test gear.

yes, random failures can happen with any brand of gear, but this is ridiculous!  I had mine in storage (I did a house move) for nearly a year and when I took it out to start using it, it turned on once, then went out.  nothing I can do will get it to turn on again.  complete failure and didn't get a single day's actual use from it.

if you do buy chinese gear, realize that its a crap shoot and you may have just thrown your heard earned cash away with no recourse in getting it fixed or replaced.  I sent email to the seller (aidtech_us) and so far, his 'suggestion' is to replace the batteries.  a more insulting reply could not have been made (sigh) ;(  yes, I checked the batteries and even used a lab supply in place of them.

if the meter gets fixed or replaced, I'll change my tone; but right now, I'm quite livid on the blatant failure of a piece of test gear that I paid good money for and expected at least ONE good use out of, let alone several years of service.

damn.

[rstoer]

after having a pretty bad experience with the well known chinese ESR/cap meter (it just stopped working entirely on its own after NO use, no measurement of actual devices) I cannot recommend the chinese test gear.

yes, random failures can happen with any brand of gear, but this is ridiculous!  I had mine in storage (I did a house move) for nearly a year and when I took it out to start using it, it turned on once, then went out.  nothing I can do will get it to turn on again.  complete failure and didn't get a single day's actual use from it.

if you do buy chinese gear, realize that its a crap shoot and you may have just thrown your heard earned cash away with no recourse in getting it fixed or replaced.  I sent email to the seller (aidtech_us) and so far, his 'suggestion' is to replace the batteries.  a more insulting reply could not have been made (sigh) ;(  yes, I checked the batteries and even used a lab supply in place of them.

if the meter gets fixed or replaced, I'll change my tone; but right now, I'm quite livid on the blatant failure of a piece of test gear that I paid good money for and expected at least ONE good use out of, let alone several years of service.

damn.

As with any country, some Chinese manufacturers are better than others. It seems rather unfair to condemn the whole country because your meter broke. You might at least tell us the company that made it.

[linux-works]

I am trying to work things out with the seller.  the maker?  who is that?  do we even know?  and my chinese is quite poor; I don't expect to be able to have email with a chinese company who makes these.  I am not their customer, either!  the sales guy in the middle is the customer to the vendor.  I'm just the end user.

what I will find out is: what kind of support exists when problems arise.  it will be informative (to the forum) what happens next.  if it ends up being a door stop, then that's your answer.  if I get support and am not out the price of the item, I'll also report back with that info.

and this IS typical of chinese made gear that is made at low cost.  sorry if you disagree, but this is a widely held view and I'm far from being alone in this.  a unit that dies just by turning it on and you want to give them the bernefit of the doubt?  (boggle!).

[Wytnucls]

Mastech is based in Hong Kong. Someone will speak English there. There is a support link on their web page.
Explain the failure of the meter and they may have a solution for you. You may have to return it for a service though and that can get expensive.

http://www.p-mastech.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=1&Itemid=13

There is also an importer in the US you may want to speak to:

[mos6502]

What other options are there though? Instek do one but I can't find it for sale anywhere. Sanwa make one but it is 30,000 yen. Hioki make some but they are expensive too. If you want cheap it's pretty much one of these unknown Chinese brands or nothing.

Huh? What about the DE-5000? It's all over the forum. Best handheld LCR meter available, not even considering the price.

[HighVoltage]

Huh? What about the DE-5000? It's all over the forum. Best handheld LCR meter available, not even considering the price.

Are you saying, that you would prefer the DE-5000 over the Agilent U1733C?
If so, may you explain why.
I am also in the market for a new handheld LCR meter that I can take along on my travel to clients.

Thanks

[mos6502]

Huh? What about the DE-5000? It's all over the forum. Best handheld LCR meter available, not even considering the price.

Are you saying, that you would prefer the DE-5000 over the Agilent U1733C?
If so, may you explain why.
I am also in the market for a new handheld LCR meter that I can take along on my travel to clients.

Thanks

- 4 wire measurement
- more accurate
- no firmware issues

DER EE is a Taiwanese company I had never heard of until recently. Their web site gives their official email address as "deree@ms21.hinet.net". That does not inspire confidence when thinking about support and help with quality issues. Even Rigol are pretty bad compared to companies like Hioki and Agilent.

I couldn't care less about their email address. The meter works great, that's all I need. If you have a problem with it, you talk to the seller anyway. Besides, I haven't read a single report about anyone having a problem with the DE-5000, but a bunch about the U1733C.

[rstoer]

Huh? What about the DE-5000? It's all over the forum. Best handheld LCR meter available, not even considering the price.

Are you saying, that you would prefer the DE-5000 over the Agilent U1733C?
If so, may you explain why.
I am also in the market for a new handheld LCR meter that I can take along on my travel to clients.

Thanks

- 4 wire measurement
- more accurate
- no firmware issues

DER EE is a Taiwanese company I had never heard of until recently. Their web site gives their official email address as "deree@ms21.hinet.net". That does not inspire confidence when thinking about support and help with quality issues. Even Rigol are pretty bad compared to companies like Hioki and Agilent.

I couldn't care less about their email address. The meter works great, that's all I need. If you have a problem with it, you talk to the seller anyway. Besides, I haven't read a single report about anyone having a problem with the DE-5000, but a bunch about the U1733C.

I recently purchased a DER EE DE-5000 and so-far I'm very pleased with it. I ordered it on a Thursday from a Japanese seller advertising express shipment. They shipped it on Friday and it was at my door (in NJ) at 10:30 am on Monday - WOW!!!.
This meter has been shown to be accurate in several reviews and, like mos6502, I've heard no horror stories regarding it. I'd be curious to hear if anyone has gotten a dud.
I agree that a seller in Japan who peddles LCR meters and stuffed animals is not likely to be much help if the unit fails (except for DOA's). I was willing to take that chance, but the risk-adverse could purchase the same unit under the IET brand. Even at their $335 retail, it's probably still the best unit for the price and there should be no issue with IET standing behind it in the event of failure.

[AllanMN]

I don't understand what this is. A ground lead?

From the DER DE-5000 manual:

"If required, Guard line (TL-23) can
provide shield for DUT (device
under test ) preventing from
interference when measuring high
impedance component"