Advice on buying first bench scope? Need to know whats best for me!

[rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin]

I know this question probably gets asked a dozen times a day! I have been watching reviews and reading a lot on the topic but there are still some things that I don't think I fully understand. First of all my budget is a firm $350 but im really trying to get down to about $250 bucks! Unfourtantelly ive been out of work for a while and have a new daughter, we are getting are taxes and getting a house and some furniture, maybe a new TV too. These things for the family come first so money is an issue. I would definitely get the new 4 channel Rigol if I could swing it!

Right now I own a USB PC scope, it is called the prop scope http://www.parallaxinc.com/product/32220 it is a 25MPs 2Mhz scope, with a four channel logic analyzer. It suits me well for simple tasks but I have out grown it. I also own Chinese clone saleae 8 channel logic analyzer, and a Bus Pirate. I feel like im pretty set as far as digital debugging and protocol analyzing go. I am starting to learn arm and will want to debug 20mhz SPI but the saleae should do that fine right?

Anyways I have a lot of projects that involve analog, and im starting to us 16/24 bit adc and dac chips to make precision current and voltage measurements. One huge problem with my USB scope is the noise! it does 100mv per division but there is always 4mv of ripple on bot channels. This is no good when I want to see exactly how clean a a 3.3v power rail for the analog system is. Ive also been getting more and more in to RF and filters.

So basically what I want is a scope with at least 100mhz of bandwidth, Im basically using it to see just how clean my signals are and if they are what I expect them to be, whether they be analog or digital.  A nice feature is FFT from what I understand I can use it to see the harmonics of fast rising/falling edges and use that to help track down any ringing from impermanence mismatching? I basically want a scope that will help me find ringing and ripple on signals and power rails.

One thing im not sure if I need is the deeper memmory model of a scope, it costs more and it seems to me its useful for storing longer signals, this seems very useful if your using a 4 channel scope to help debug a serial protocol, but isn't that what an LA is for? Another thing is im not even sure if I need a DSO there are some nice analog scopes out there for cheap with lots of bandwith, but im not to sure how usefull these are for debugging signal integrity since im assuming they cant do math functions?

Heres what im looking at buying so far

Siglent  SDS1102 Dual Channel 100Mhz 500M/Sa $340 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDS1102DL-7-100MHZ-500MSa-s-32Kpts-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-/140892399880?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cdd76908 Jack Gannsle has a series of reviews on his site about this scope and its functionality looks really nice!! Although it is the priciest one on the list and its only 500M/Sa. Anyone who hasn't seen these may want to go over to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC067MO4ZVsbA8QDJG0qCTJQ/videos and watch his 2 part review. Let me know if it is as slick as he says!

Hantek DSO5102P Dual Channel 100Mhz 1Gs $253 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-DSO5102P-Digital-Oscilloscope-100MHz-1Gs-2CH-7-TFT-Compared-TEK-TDS2012-/370877922257?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565a0bfbd1 Ive watched Daves review of this scope, and was really put off (mostly about the front end noise) until I found out he had a faulty one with bad firmware (correct?). This scope is hackable with all kinds of features and is definately the fastest on my list, im not sure whats not to like! Im just not sure if it has all the same firmware features Jack shows off on the siglent. This is the model without deep memmory but once again im not sure I need that deep memmory, or if this scope will even run all that fast when using it?

Rigol 1052E, need I say more... Problem is its $350 for a lot less than the other scopes listed, but its rock solid with a huge support base. Probably not a good purchase at this point but I thought I would throw it out there!

Hantek DSO4102B Dual Channel 100mhz 5M/sa $277 http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Arrival-Hantek-DSO4102B-100MHz-2CH-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-500MSa-s-Sa-/161324640479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258fb2a8df This guy seems to be a 1052p but with more memmory and half the sample rate, brand new product. Not sure if its hackable yet and not sure if memmory for sample rate is a good trade off..

Agilent 5411D 4 channel older DSO 100mhz 400M/sa $250 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-54112D-Digitizing-4-Channel-Oscilloscope-Color-Screen-/151588504161?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234b610261 Good quality name brand, and 4 channels!! It also has 64k of ram which is a lot compared to the Hantek and Siglent with there 4k and 2k respectively. But its clunky and has the lowest sample rate...

Tektronix 150mhz 4 channel 2445A analog scope $250http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-2445A-Four-4-Channel-Oscilloscope-GPIB-Opt-5-and-10-works-150-MHz-/151586429864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234b415ba8 Im not even sure I need a DSO this one looks darn nice for an analog scope and it seems to be about the price they go for

Like I said this is my first bench scope (probably wont be my last, just something to do what I need for a year or two) and when you get in to ebay you can find lots of Quality name Analog and DSOs for about 250 to 350 dollars im just not educated enough about all the models out there to know what to really look for in the older used one. Ive even thought about getting something like the siglent or hantek and then buying an el cheapo analog scope that can do 5 or even 1mv per division and using them togasther. If anyone has any input on the scopes listed above or even knows some other quality scopes in my price range better than these (new or used) then let me know

[rob77]

if the 100MHz bandwidth is important for you then forget the 500MSa/s ones... 500meg samples divided for 2 channels yields 250meg samples per channel and that's barely enough for 100Mhz. i would look after the 1GSa/s ones if the 100Mhz is important.

but anyway... the best would be to save up a little more and buy a Rigol DS1054Z (approx $400).

[rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin]

Well I want enough bandwidth to grow with so if im running external buses at 10 to 20mhz I will need a 100 to 200mhz scope to accurately view the wave form correct? Im mostly concerned with a really goo low noise front end (that can do low mv/per div hopefully, if not an amplifier can be built), then secondly firmware (if DSO) that is will let you do things like split the screen and do something like show channel 1 on top and then a zoomed section of it on bottom, or an fft.

I would love to get the new rigol but my price is pretty firm at this point. Things may change between now and a week or two when I buy but I doubt it.

[dom0]

I'd consider used scopes.

There are for example some LeCroy scopes from the 90s with 1-4 G/s, 500 or 1000 MHz analog bandwidth and 2 or 4 channels. They all have deep memory (>2 Mpts / ch). They usually go in the 150 $ range. Sometimes you find the Hantek/Tekway scopes used, then they also go cheaply (similar ballpark).

For debugging digital I would really really recommend only a deep memory (as opposed to "shallow memory" like 4K or 40K pts/ch) scope. It's extremely useful.

For noise measurements a scope is usually not the best tool, they are not sensitive enough (usually .5 - 2 mV / div). I recently bought an HP 3400A RMS voltmeter and it works like a charm. Mine has a noise floor of about 30 µVrms. Has 10 MHz (+- 5 %) bandwidth, or in more usual terms a -3 dB bandwidth of about 24 MHz.


Probes: They get pricey quickly beyond 100 MHz. Good probes simply cost money. Consider used ones here, too. For a 100 or 200 MHz scope you probably want probes exceeding that rating by quite a margin (<- this isn't easily possible at higher bandwidths like 500 or 1000 MHz). Don't bother with x1/x10 probes, most better probes are fixed x10 anyway.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Agilent 5411D 4 channel older DSO 100mhz 400M/sa $250

Not Agilent, HP! This scope was HP's top of the line 'deep memory scope' in 1987 when 'deep memory' was 64kpts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-54112D-Digitizing-4-Channel-Oscilloscope-Color-Screen-/151588504161?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234b610261 Good quality name brand, and 4 channels!!

Yes, and 25+yrs old, and sold as-is i.e. may not even work correctly (and even if it does, at that age there's a high chance that it will fail in the near future). Not exactly a great bargain.

It also has 64k of ram

No, that's sample memory, not RAM.

I wouldn't sink any money in this thing unless you know what you're doing.

[dom0]

Yeah, DSO tech of the 80s is ... not competitive today (or yesterday, for that matter). The very high end stuff of the 90s is a different thing, though. Although I personally wouldn't buy the Teks of that time, because most of them have the plague and probably require replacing all capacitors in the entire device. And if something isn't working chances seem to be pretty good, that leaked electrolyte damaged PCBs and parts badly.

Note that LeCroy scopes also do use ASICs (A/D converter) and hybrids (AFE) to some degree, so if you see a LeCroy failing it's input or A/D converter self-test one of those is probably fried.

[nctnico]

Yeah, DSO tech of the 80s is ... not competitive today (or yesterday, for that matter). The very high end stuff of the 90s is a different thing, though. Although I personally wouldn't buy the Teks of that time, because most of them have the plague and probably require replacing all capacitors in the entire device. And if something isn't working chances seem to be pretty good, that leaked electrolyte damaged PCBs and parts badly.

That is only true for the models (edit: TDS500/600/700 series) sold in the very early 90's. The later ones from 1994 on don't have the leaky capacitor problem at all even if they have electrolytic capacitors.

[rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin]

dom0 do you mean an analog or dso? I did a search on lecroy earlier and it was pretty pricey. if you have a specific model in mind please let me know!

From what Ive read so far my best bet is to pick one of the Chinese scopes, or maybe an old LeCroy? As I said I have plenty of digital debugging tools already so Im not sure I need deep memmory...?

[dom0]

LeCroy only built very few analog scopes. I think in your range the 9300 series should be interesting, for example the 9354L (4 ch, 500 MHz, 2 GS/s, 8 Mpts memory). But as with all used gear it can take a while to find a good deal, so if you can't wait anything used might not be your deal

Yeah, DSO tech of the 80s is ... not competitive today (or yesterday, for that matter). The very high end stuff of the 90s is a different thing, though. Although I personally wouldn't buy the Teks of that time, because most of them have the plague and probably require replacing all capacitors in the entire device. And if something isn't working chances seem to be pretty good, that leaked electrolyte damaged PCBs and parts badly.

That is only true for the models sold in the very early 90's. The later ones from 1994 on don't have the leaky capacitor problem at all even if they have electrolytic capacitors.

Good to know

[Wuerstchenhund]

LeCroy only built very few analog scopes.

LeCroy never built an analog scope (they were always a digital 'scope' company right from the start) The analog scopes they once offered where rebadged Iwatsu scopes. Pretty good scopes btw, but hard to find and usually pretty expensive.

I think in your range the 9300 series should be interesting, for example the 9354L (4 ch, 500 MHz, 2 GS/s, 8 Mpts memory). But as with all used gear it can take a while to find a good deal, so if you can't wait anything used might not be your deal

Indeed. Also don't discount the later LC300/500 Series which uses color CRTs. These scopes often go for even less than the older 9300 Series.

[rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin]

So something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-9450A-2-Channel-Dual-300MHz-400Ms-s-Portable-Digital-Oscilloscope-/300921038367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46104aa61f will be better than the hantek hands down?

[FrankenPC]

So something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-9450A-2-Channel-Dual-300MHz-400Ms-s-Portable-Digital-Oscilloscope-/300921038367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46104aa61f will be better than the hantek hands down?

The item weighs 150LB's?!! 

[dom0]

The 9450A has only 50 Kpts memory per channel and a single-shot sampling rate of 400 MS/s

So something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-9450A-2-Channel-Dual-300MHz-400Ms-s-Portable-Digital-Oscilloscope-/300921038367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46104aa61f will be better than the hantek hands down?

The item weighs 150LB's?!!

That is rather unlikely

If item is weight is over 150 pounds...

[dadler]

I don't want to make you feel bad, but I don't think you really 'need' a scope. This sounds like more of a 'want' situation, and in that case I really think you should save up the extra money for the DS1054Z. With the EEVBlog discount, you can get this scope for $375 delivered from Tequipment.net.

This scope is so much more capable (and extremely upgradable) than any you have listed, and is so much more of a value, that you are in a sense throwing money away if you go for those other scopes.

The money may be burning a hole in your pocket, but do yourself a favor and skip Starbucks for a month and get the 1054Z.

Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. 

[dom0]

The 1054Z is a great scope, no one doubts that... but it has only 50 MHz bandwidth (dunno, can you still unlock these?), which is kinda... not much.

[nctnico]

So something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-9450A-2-Channel-Dual-300MHz-400Ms-s-Portable-Digital-Oscilloscope-/300921038367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46104aa61f will be better than the hantek hands down?

With that much screen burn? Definitely NO! 
But... you can get better deals. A couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix TDS510A (4 channel 500MHz) for around $230 (ex. shipping). The trim was broken up and the glass covering the display was smashed in but it still works like a charm.Picking out the right 'for parts' unit and adding some elbow grease can get you a nice scope for peanuts.

[dom0]

So something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-9450A-2-Channel-Dual-300MHz-400Ms-s-Portable-Digital-Oscilloscope-/300921038367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46104aa61f will be better than the hantek hands down?

With that much screen burn? Definitely NO! 
But... you can get better deals. A couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix TDS510A (4 channel 500MHz) for around $230 (ex. shipping). The trim was broken up and the glass covering the display was smashed in but it still works like a charm.Picking out the right 'for parts' unit and adding some elbow grease can get you a nice scope for peanuts.

The Art of War buying surplus equipment.

[rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin]

I had no idea you could get the new rigol for $375 shipped... How do you get this eevblog discount? I may be able to stretch to 375 if that includes shipping... Also can you unlock them like the 1052E?

[dadler]

I had no idea you could get the new rigol for $375 shipped... How do you get this eevblog discount? I may be able to stretch to 375 if that includes shipping... Also can you unlock them like the 1052E?

Sent you a PM.

[smgvbest]

I agree with the Rigol DS1054Z then hack it to 100Mhz and hacked people are seeing up to 130Mhz in reality plus you see allot of other features with triggering and such.   with the eevblog discount as mentioned it is really worth saving the little extra and get it as a good starter scope.  IMHO

[rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin]

Welp now that I know I can get it for that price I think I talked the old lady into let me go up in price a bit and getting one. Id still like to save some money though so if anyone knows of any scopes with awesome deals or used scopes comparable to the rigol let me know.

So the rigol works as a 4 channel LA along with protocol debugger too correct? What kind of other goodies does it have? Im pretty sold on the intensity graded display I know that. Im just not sure what LAN is for and all that kind of good stuff

[alex.forencich]

Welp now that I know I can get it for that price I think I talked the old lady into let me go up in price a bit and getting one. Id still like to save some money though so if anyone knows of any scopes with awesome deals or used scopes comparable to the rigol let me know.

So the rigol works as a 4 channel LA along with protocol debugger too correct? What kind of other goodies does it have? Im pretty sold on the intensity graded display I know that. Im just not sure what LAN is for and all that kind of good stuff

Yeah, it basically acts like a 4 channel LA, which is great for most serial protocols.  The LAN port is nice in that you can yank traces off of the scope directly to your computer over your home/workshop network.  I do this all the time to save screenshots and traces; it avoids the need to get out the flash drive. 

[EPLan]

What's your opinion on the ? Do you think there might be some tweaked hardware changes in the near future?

[Fungus]

Well I want enough bandwidth to grow with so if im running external buses at 10 to 20mhz I will need a 100 to 200mhz scope to accurately view the wave form correct?

No.

You need a 100 to 200mhz sample rate. Not the same thing at all.

Anyway, there's only one possible choice at that price range. The Rigol 1054Z. Don't even bother looking at anything else. If it's $50 more than your budget then change the budget.

I could understand your complaint if I was telling you to get something that cost hundreds of dollars more but it's $50. Find a way...

[dom0]

Well I want enough bandwidth to grow with so if im running external buses at 10 to 20mhz I will need a 100 to 200mhz scope to accurately view the wave form correct?

No.

You need a 100 to 200mhz sample rate. Not the same thing at all.

Uhm, nope, if you want to accurately reproduce digital waveforms (i.e. pulses, square waves) you need much higher bandwidth than the fundamental frequency. At least ten times the fundamental. To properly judge the edges you need even more bandwidth, since you likely want a faster rise time of your test setup than the rise time of the edge... else you can't judge it, really. So for most digital work a 100 MHz scope is more on the lower end of what is useful. For higher speed digital circuits it's no good anyway.