A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service

[NEDM64]

My 34470A (7.5 digit multimeter) died 2 weeks ago - it was happy logging away one moment, beeped and then the screen went white with some random black vertical lines on it. It now will not boot and can't make it into the bootloader - from a while back, there is a serial connector on the back of the front panel where you can normally see boot messages (from both u-boot and the multimeter's firmware), but nothing comes out of it.

Whilst I'm annoyed at any piece of equipment failing (who isn't), what is by far the most irritating is Keysight's response to all of this, which I think is best summed up by their last email to me:

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.

I'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.

So whilst I'm trying to find any possible way to convince them into even considering repairing it, I thought it might be worth bringing to people's attention so anyone who's self-employed / a contractor / runs a small business knows to avoid Keysight.

Normal, I'm in Portugal, and I bought a DSO-X2002A for myself and it's not working and they just don't care and waste my time.

I will never buy something from that brand that changes the name every 6 months. Hopefully they will got out of business.

[YetAnotherTechie]

Please help the thread:

Who did you buy from?
Who is not caring?
Have you contacted eNGN Technologies? (the national autorized distributor)

[NEDM64]

Please help the thread:

Who did you buy from?
Who is not caring?
Have you contacted eNGN Technologies? (the national autorized distributor)

Didn't even knew that was the national distributor, contacted Keysight two times, and first they gave me the middle finger and told me to buy Keysight Care, then keysightcare.emeai@keysight.com. They asked me the model, serial and company and it's has been 10 days without an answer.

But I'm going to contact that company.

[YetAnotherTechie]

Before you do, check the forum again, there have been people that got the nand corruption fixed after warranty, you need to find the thread, i believe there was mention of an internal bulletin, and help from DanielBogdanoff.
When you talk to eNGN, try to figure out their position on costumers that are not bussinesses, for sales and calibration too.

[Psi]

It's always a good idea to make yourself seem like a company when communicating with companies that usually talk to other companies.

Translate that to: telling lies  This is exactly the kind of behaviour that makes companies check whether they are actually dealing with a company so they don't get lured into contract terms they didn't agree on.

I never said to tell lies. All I said was to make communications seem normal for a company.
e.g. don't start with... "Hi, I'm a hobbyist who uses model XYZ oscilloscope and I have a question about..."
Instead, speak professionally and keep the tone of the email at a corporate level.

[Pinkus]

... Never, never, in business (or life in general) piss off someone or demonstrate to them how you'll screw someone over just because you think they don't matter, they may be much more important to your future than you think - most importantly, drum this into your most junior customer facing staff, they have the potential to do immense damage to your reputation by "just following company policy" in a rigid and intransigent manner.

So true! More than 50% of my annual profit is generated by two big clients. The initial contact with both customers was just a small order and in both cases the responsible people ordered as private individuals and had the goods sent to their homes (as they did not want to deal with their internal ordering procedure which at many companies is quite complicated and time consuming). 
Some technical enquiries and my (I assume/hope) good support of these (at this time supposed) private individuals then led to a small order from the companies and finally, now for more than 10 years, to very large orders every few months.
If I had pissed off these two private individuals at the beginning, these two companies would not have become my customers. Basically, this applies to many of my customers: recurring quite profitable orders ... after I have previously shown that I care.
Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

[iMo]

..
Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

In real life you should try to distinguish between an "one man show" company and a company like KS with billions $ revenue and xxx thousands of industrial customers..

The number of people who are able to repair your rig is extremely limited in those large corporations (I worked in 3 such corporations). They have always a hard time to provide such a support to their existing industrial customer base. Their large customers usually buy a large number of goods - that generates enough revenue to cover warranty repairs. Therefore their employees are requested to provide such answers to somebody who does not fit into their actual business model. A repair of a gear is a fully different task than a production of that gear. Real costs of a 34470 repair might easily be higher than costs of production of the 34470 box itself.

[tggzzz]

..
Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

In real life you should try to distinguish between an "one man show" company and a company like KS with billions $ revenue and xxx thousands of industrial customers..

The number of people who are able to repair your rig is extremely limited in those large corporations (I worked in 3 such corporations). They have always a hard time to provide such a support to their existing industrial customer base. Their large customers usually buy a large number of goods - that generates enough revenue to cover warranty repairs. Therefore their employees are requested to provide such answers to somebody who does not fit into their actual business model. A repair of a gear is a fully different task than a production of that gear. Real costs of a 34470 repair might easily be higher than costs of production of the 34470 box itself.

In HP the normal practice was to go out of their way to help customers even when they didn't have to. I remember two occasions when an old XY plotter failed just before an exhibition. HP loaned one for the duration of the exhibition. That kind of attitude enabled HP to grow over the decades.

That kind of attitude was normal - and I know since I subsequently worked very happily in HP for over a decade. I only left when princess Carly dissolved the "HP Way" and Agilent split off.

And that, mesdames et messieurs, is why so many people feel so bitter about and let down by this new corporate attitude.

[bd139]

Yep. Also on this front, HP were more than happy to supply enough service information for large corporations to perform their own in house repairs and calibration. In the company I worked for we had enough people in the T&M department to cover this. If anyone got stuck, HP found you a contact who could help.

This scaled down to one man outfits as well. Sometimes it’s the one man outfits that care enough to provide critical feedback on your products.

[2N3055]

..
Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

In real life you should try to distinguish between an "one man show" company and a company like KS with billions $ revenue and xxx thousands of industrial customers..

The number of people who are able to repair your rig is extremely limited in those large corporations (I worked in 3 such corporations). They have always a hard time to provide such a support to their existing industrial customer base. Their large customers usually buy a large number of goods - that generates enough revenue to cover warranty repairs. Therefore their employees are requested to provide such answers to somebody who does not fit into their actual business model. A repair of a gear is a fully different task than a production of that gear. Real costs of a 34470 repair might easily be higher than costs of production of the 34470 box itself.

In HP the normal practice was to go out of their way to help customers even when they didn't have to. I remember two occasions when an old XY plotter failed just before an exhibition. HP loaned one for the duration of the exhibition. That kind of attitude enabled HP to grow over the decades.

That kind of attitude was normal - and I know since I subsequently worked very happily in HP for over a decade. I only left when princess Carly dissolved the "HP Way" and Agilent split off.

And that, mesdames et messieurs, is why so many people feel so bitter about and let down by this new corporate attitude.

To make things more funny, it seems it more likely today to get that kind of attention from Rigol, Siglent, Micsig, Picoscope than from people that built their reputation on that kind of attitude.

[tggzzz]

..
Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

In real life you should try to distinguish between an "one man show" company and a company like KS with billions $ revenue and xxx thousands of industrial customers..

The number of people who are able to repair your rig is extremely limited in those large corporations (I worked in 3 such corporations). They have always a hard time to provide such a support to their existing industrial customer base. Their large customers usually buy a large number of goods - that generates enough revenue to cover warranty repairs. Therefore their employees are requested to provide such answers to somebody who does not fit into their actual business model. A repair of a gear is a fully different task than a production of that gear. Real costs of a 34470 repair might easily be higher than costs of production of the 34470 box itself.

In HP the normal practice was to go out of their way to help customers even when they didn't have to. I remember two occasions when an old XY plotter failed just before an exhibition. HP loaned one for the duration of the exhibition. That kind of attitude enabled HP to grow over the decades.

That kind of attitude was normal - and I know since I subsequently worked very happily in HP for over a decade. I only left when princess Carly dissolved the "HP Way" and Agilent split off.

And that, mesdames et messieurs, is why so many people feel so bitter about and let down by this new corporate attitude.

To make things more funny, it seems it more likely today to get that kind of attention from Rigol, Siglent, Micsig, Picoscope than from people that built their reputation on that kind of attitude.

Possibly, but I have no experience so any comments would be worthless.

I do know that HP built stuff that "met the spec" with no surprises. I've heard tales the other companies aren't quite as good in that respect.

There's a famous "Bill and Dave" story that illustrated that. Under time pressure, the first version of the HP2000 minicomputers was released too early, and customers complained. When Packard heard about it he left a memo on the Paul Ely's desk (the project manager) saying "Please ensure we do not release products until they meet the advertised specifications". That was, in HP terms, one hell of a rebuke.

It illustrates HP's ethos that Ely framed the memo and hung it on the wall - and went on to have an excellent career in HP.

[Antonio90]

It becomes clear that Keysight is completely out of the hobbyist market. Without service manuals, available parts nor any kind of repair or support, if your unit breaks after warranty it becomes a paperweight. I bet there are very few hobbyists willing to spend the kind of money they ask, even for their entry level DSOX1204 for 2 or 3 years of use, with no possibility of repair whatsoever after that.

But, if they really want out of our market, I'm, honestly, not surprised that they don't provide support to individual customers, even if they don't sell to us at all.

The consumer laws in Europe are rather protective towards the private buyer. And, as was previously stated, It means agreeing to potentially unfavourable terms, which include a fixed warranty time and the seller's burden of the proof in proving the cause of failure, amongst other things. On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.

The laws are also going to get tighter for the sellers and manufacturers, so they might be trying to move fast to avoid having to cope with unnegotiated terms and conditions which apply to every private customer, irrespective of what they are buying, how much they are spending, or whether they know or not how to use their equipment.

Besides that, having a registered VAT number, a small company or whatever, is generally painles in most european countries, and doesn't stand as an unreasonable requisite to me. Here in Spain I just have my own ID number as my registered VAT number. A company is also really cheap and fast now.

The point is, I guess, that they just have a general policy within Europe, which is mostly reasonable and a pretty logical choice, but happens to create a lot of problems with the UK legal system, which is not surprising. There are a lot of problems trying to integrate and/or translate regulations, rights, certifications and all kind of legal concepts from the rest of Europe to the English Common Law.

The logical solution would be to change the laws on the UK to make small companies viable, or for Keysight to have a system to differentiate businesses from amateurs irrespective of them legally being a company or not.

There was another point made in the thread before, which was something like "why woul I have to cope with minimum warranty as a company when I can have a longer warranty due to consumer protection regulations?". That is exactly the point I guess. You can get the compulsory legal warranty as a consumer (and they might not want to play with those rules in the consumer market), or the variable proffesional warranty offered by the manufacturer, which will really depend on your position to negotiate with them.

[AVGresponding]

..
Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

In real life you should try to distinguish between an "one man show" company and a company like KS with billions $ revenue and xxx thousands of industrial customers..

The number of people who are able to repair your rig is extremely limited in those large corporations (I worked in 3 such corporations). They have always a hard time to provide such a support to their existing industrial customer base. Their large customers usually buy a large number of goods - that generates enough revenue to cover warranty repairs. Therefore their employees are requested to provide such answers to somebody who does not fit into their actual business model. A repair of a gear is a fully different task than a production of that gear. Real costs of a 34470 repair might easily be higher than costs of production of the 34470 box itself.

This misses the point, pretty much completely.

Keysight are refusing point blank to even quote for a repair (I question whether a repair can genuinely cost more than a replacement in any realistic situation), and refusing to even calibrate an instrument (in a more or less parallel thread).
Cost is irrelevant; they are simply refusing to engage with "non-business" customers, and only in the UK. They are apparently happy to continue to deal with non-business customers elsewhere in the world, unless I missed another thread like this.
The date of the change and the region it applies to seem to point pretty much directly at it being some sort of Brexit consequence.

[bd139]

On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.

Couple of problems with that statement. Firstly some of us are or were professionals that happen to just be doing something else now. And secondly "professionals" are definitely on par with blowing equipment up. I have seen a couple of things turned to charcoal in a lab environment.

Also on principle, why should a business have a different warranty to a consumer? What is the objective of the consumer protection? Well simply put it's supposed to reduce the cost impact of buying something that fails quickly and secondly to reduce the environmental impact of short life equipment. Should those not be business objectives?

The end game is the consumer pays anyway as the responsibility gets pushed up to the nest of businesses which have to lump their equipment costs into the sales cost.

[tggzzz]

It becomes clear that Keysight is completely out of the hobbyist market.

HP/Agilent/Keysight test equipment was never in the hobbyist market! It is too high end and too expensive.

That's not the point. The point is they have changed their policy about equipment you already bought on the understanding you would be able to have them service it.

On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.

I've broken things while working as an electronic engineer; embarassing! I've had things break while working as an electronic engineer; irritating.

[Antonio90]

On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.

Couple of problems with that statement. Firstly some of us are or were professionals that happen to just be doing something else now. And secondly "professionals" are definitely on par with blowing equipment up. I have seen a couple of things turned to charcoal in a lab environment.

Also on principle, why should a business have a different warranty to a consumer? What is the objective of the consumer protection? Well simply put it's supposed to reduce the cost impact of buying something that fails quickly and secondly to reduce the environmental impact of short life equipment. Should those not be business objectives?

The end game is the consumer pays anyway as the responsibility gets pushed up to the nest of businesses which have to lump their equipment costs into the sales cost.

Many of you are, indeed, but I bet most of us are not. I don't really know though, so my point can just be taken as invalid.

There are many principles involved as far as I'm concerned. There are those you listed, and then there is the general lack of equilibrium of power between the parties of some legal relationships. The best example is labor law, which is basically a set of benefits an warranties for the labourer, to limit the, otherwise exorbitant, power of the company over the employee.

In consumer law the situation is similar. It is assumed that the end consumer has no real power in his relationship with bigger players on the market, and there are a set of rules to protect him by legally binding any company that sells to an end customer. It includes warranty and repairs, but also especial rules for litigation, a lot of limitations regarding which contractual clauses are valid,an extensive right of withdrawal, and quite a few others.

The point I was trying to make is that, for most practical purposes, a company loses its ability to decide on which terms the sale is made. I can't really decide whether that is mostly bad or mostly good, but I can understand why a company might not want to play in a market with those rules.

And there is no point necessarily for the business warranty to be different. There is just no perceived need to "protect" them as the consumers are protected, in general terms. As such the warranty will be as offered by the seller, or as negotiated by the "equal" parts on the sale.

There might be other regulations regarding the availability of parts, possibility of repair, disposal and recycling of equipment and so on, but I don't know much about that.

[Antonio90]

It becomes clear that Keysight is completely out of the hobbyist market.

HP/Agilent/Keysight test equipment was never in the hobbyist market! It is too high end and too expensive.

That's not the point. The point is they have changed their policy about equipment you already bought on the understanding you would be able to have them service it.

On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.

I've broken things while working as an electronic engineer; embarassing! I've had things break while working as an electronic engineer; irritating.

Yeah, my point about hobbyist and pros was not very clever on hindsight. It was mostly motivated by picturing myself using test equipment 

And there have been a lot of points besides that one on the thread. But anyway, If their support included consumers when the item was bought, It should include them now too indeed, and I bet, if you can prove that your use is professional enough, or that you are contracted as a professional, any court will say you're entitled to get support as any other business.

[YetAnotherTechie]

The consumer laws in Europe are rather protective towards the private buyer. And, as was previously stated, It means agreeing to potentially unfavourable terms, which include a fixed warranty time and the seller's burden of the proof in proving the cause of failure, amongst other things. On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.

In KS case, EU consumer warranty law is de facto irrelevant, since the manufacturer warranty exceeds it by a long shot.
Today, on KS website, buying online to Portugal:
For a low range
DSOX2002A Oscilloscope, 2-channel, 70MHz 1358€
KeysightCare Technical Support - 5 years
Return to Keysight Warranty - 5 years

For a
34461A Digital multimeter, 6 1/2 digit, Truevolt DMM 1041€
KeysightCare Technical Support - 3 years
Return to Keysight Warranty - 3 years

These are among the cheapest products a hobiest or consumer can get from KS.
And i disagree that in this range a consumer or hobbiest is higher risk for warranty damage.
A hobbiest or consumer would find this gear expensive and take serious care not to damage it, while this kind of equipment in a company or more likely a school/university will be thrown around and handled by the most inept and "it's not mine" kind of asses.

I believe their position probably has more to do with safety/EMC/REACH rules than warranty.
German users should know more, because when i bought parts as a consumer for a VW or BMW car, on the box many had a symbol of a man, and a man in coveralls with a wrench, where the normal man was crossed, i.e. don't sell to non professionals, so they've had this rule for years, somewhere on a thread it was mentioned that being picky started with KS Germany.

[rsjsouza]

Also on principle, why should a business have a different warranty to a consumer? What is the objective of the consumer protection? Well simply put it's supposed to reduce the cost impact of buying something that fails quickly and secondly to reduce the environmental impact of short life equipment. Should those not be business objectives?

Quite honorable but not realistic. A business, however small, has the much higher potential of getting back to you for their next high $$$ purchase - you treat them very well. Individuals, not only are much more swayed by the used market (which could very well be a limiting factor in providing service for consumers) but put less weight in the value added of service contracts.

Do I like that stance? Surely not, as I am myself an individual consumer of products.

[floobydust]

How does it matter to Keysight Repair Dept. if a multimeter comes in for repair from Mr. Big Co. that has 100 units in service- or Mr. Small Fish that owns only one?
There's no difference, other than paperwork for the owner's info and an account to bill in the end.

Are these even repaired in the UK? I think it might have to get shipped across the pond to USA. They'd have the replacement boards, test/cal fixture, special firmware etc. at HQ. edit: no, that's all in china where they're manufactured.
I thought Keysight UK is just too lazy to ship anything back home marked "No commercial value - Item for repair".

[rsjsouza]

It matters if your Tier 1 customers are backed up by the sheer amount of service. Design and testing activity has been high lately, therefore there is a chance the customers may be puling out inactive equipment from their inventory or just running into more issues due to overuse.

I am old enough to have seen quite a lot of these scenarios in the industry: when the ability to support your Tier 1 dwindles for any reason, let it be unexpected demand, cost cutting, past RIFs, etc., hard decisions like these are taken.

Sure, all this is speculation (I don't work at KS to know for sure), but large customers have preferencial service for many reasons, including the potential to bring a more stable revenue flow to maintain the cal/repair labs.

[J-R]

I've been following this thread a bit and during my research I ended up watching most of Dave's 5-part John Kenny interview which has some relevant info about this I think.

Publishing schematics has its challenges, from keeping them up to date to intellectual property theft concerns.

Repair guides also require significant effort to produce and maintain.  You need to cover a lot of failure modes.  There is the concern of someone getting over their head attempting repairs by following the guides.

Providing repair parts is a challenge as they place large orders for components for the number of units being manufactured at that time.  Keeping extra spare parts sitting in a warehouse or having to buy them later in small quantities costs more money and just isn't cost effective.

While we like fixing stuff here, in the economy of scale for a large company it is far more "efficient" to produce a replacement board and swap it or replace the entire unit than it is to pay someone to attempt repairs.


There is some really interesting information in the videos and it shows that from the outside we may not fully appreciate all the factors that go into a company's decisions.  And John states there have been times he fought decisions and sometimes he won and sometimes he lost.


Out of curiosity I contacted Keysight and purchased a 1 year "KeysightCare Assured Renewal" for one of my devices that was out of warranty.  They specifically asked me if I was a business or professional and I stated I was a professional.  I only had to provide my name and address to proceed.  I purchased the item a couple years ago from their ebay store.

[floobydust]

No way to spin it- looks like a shit policy for OP and Keysight UK, and the no-communication says plenty   I want a job where I can just stick my head in the ground, do nothing and get paid. Hey PR dept and exec get off the golf course already.
In a corporate environment I won't buy equipment from manufacturers that are known to discriminate or screw over customers. Sure Tier 1 can afford all the drama, delay, breakdowns, shipping etc. and I would not be personally affected much, but for small guys this PFO can be devastating.

I notice both 34470A MCUs are obsolete for some time now, unobtainium. DMM MCU TI LM3S1D21 and Front Panel MCU ST SPEAr320S-2 (BGA) also obsolete. FPGA Lattice LFXP2-5E-5TN144C is active.
I'd wonder if the product is end-of-life, how many MCU's are stock-piled. This kind of component issue makes board swaps extra expensive and rare, if the supply is low.

[Cerebus]

I'd wonder if the product is end-of-life, how many MCU's are stock-piled. This kind of component issue makes board swaps extra expensive and rare, if the supply is low.

Based on past experience HPAK used to be quite good at reacting to "Last chance to buy" notifications from semiconductor suppliers and stocking up for potentially decades ahead. They were chugging out new 3458As well after some of the op amps and comparators used in the design had become vague memories at semiconductor stockists. Whether they are still good at this post the shitshow that  Carly Fiorina generated is open to question.

[MadTux]

Guess I'll stick with the 50-20year old HP/Tek&Keithley stuff for the rest of my life.
Unmatched quality with schematics and THT that is easy to solder.
Never had much trouble fixing HP3456A or a Keithley 2015/196, why would I want a new Keysight piece of shit that I can't even fix myself???

A few Tek7000 mainframes and some 7A13/7A22 is more than enough to work on audio amplifiers, variable frequency drives or welding inverters..... Who cares about GS/s and MSamples of memory, doesn't benefit me in any way in these applications. 7A22 can handle abuse, new Keysight DSO likely can't and becomes expensive brick.

And since I got that great letter from Keysight a few years ago, where they threatened me about some devices that got sold on ebay instead of being scrapped, they can kiss me where the sun doesn't shine.....