A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service

[Saskia]

re IDs:
over here we have VAT IDs that are issued to business that either request it and ask for VAT deduction explicitely (comes with filing monthly tax returns plus additional reports to the fiscal authorities (just dealt with that, it is a major pain and no sane person wants to do this voluntarily) and your personal tax id which is issued to you once you come of age.
My daughter got hers when she turned 18 if I remember correctly.

No business asks for your personal tax ID over here.
However I could imagine that Keysight wanted to either:
eliminate tax / customs issues when dealing with Brexit and shipping repaired goods over to the UK
or
punish the end user community for hacking their stuff ... as a corporate customer you would just not do this.
(I have not hacked my 3054T that I got from their distributor, and those questions I had regarding this scope where answered fast and in a friendly manner).

[bson]

If it's due to UK consumer protection laws (a paid repair falling under consumer protection laws solely because the buyer can be categorized as a consumer) then expect this to become the rule across the board for all T&E, electronic components, industrial suppliers, etc.  These are not consumer products and if the law has been changed so it's based on who the buyer is rather than the nature of the product and who it's marketed to, then expect industrial suppliers to decline to do business with buyers who would make it consumer sales.

[Cerebus]

The UK law has been the same in this arena since 2015, so this isn't down to UK legislation changing. Every indication is that is a reaction of Keysight Germany to some change in the law in Germany, or perhaps just bloody mindedness on the behalf of Keysight Germany. There is no way we can know which or what because Keysight are being silent on the subject except for parroting the same phrase over and over which is just a restatement of their policy when asked for an explanation.

[nctnico]

Suddenly I recall the lengthy discussions about why Keysight is excluding some countries from their annual test equipment give-away event 

[Hydron]

Does anyone know if this BS goes on with any of the other big T&M companies?

Kinda glad I just bought a bench DMM from Keithley (aka Tek) instead of KS, even though I've had to get the transformer changed due to audible noise (involving the unit getting stuck in customs for a lengthy period thanks to Brexit!). The Tek people were pretty helpful when I called pre-purchase, sorted out an ex-demo unit for a local distributor to sell me when I called and *said I was a hobbyist* - shame their product range for scopes etc is laughable. Given this BS from KS, I wonder what their response would have been if I'd made the same call to their sales folk?

On the service front, R&S were a bit useless when I was trying to get my scope fixed, but they weren't actively trying to stop me from getting stuff sorted (was marginally out of warranty, some non-UK-based representatives indicated it'd get fixed under warranty anyway, but the UK office ignored that even when forwarded the emails and wanted silly money for their "recommended" fixed-price service, so I just changed the $10 IC myself to be done with it rather than more effort into fighting them about it).

[bd139]

I've heard good things about Tek but it's more "we'll sell you a self fit board for your shitty TDS for the price of a new TBS" type outcomes.

But at the same time when I looked to download firmware for my shitty TBS1052B I recently got for pocket change, I found that there was a wall which was related to not being in the US and having downloads manually approved. This was actually eventually solved with much much much irony by a well known rep from another competing T&M vendor.

The irony is not lost here as on the other Keysight thread, R&S were giving better support to people on a Keysight thread than Keysight were ?!?!?!

So much  .

Honestly from a UK perspective if I was in the business and didn't need completely specialist kit I'd probably only buy stuff from Telonic (Siglent / Rigol / Brymen etc), AIM-TTi, Peak and Picotech if I could. The risk assessment is somewhat more favourable if the investment is less painful to write off.

[tautech]

I've heard good things about Tek but it's more "we'll sell you a self fit board for your shitty TDS for the price of a new TBS" type outcomes.

But at the same time when I looked to download firmware for my shitty TBS1052B I recently got for pocket change, I found that there was a wall which was related to not being in the US and having downloads manually approved. This was actually eventually solved with much much much irony by a well known rep from another competing T&M vendor.

The irony is not lost here as on the other Keysight thread, R&S were giving better support to people on a Keysight thread than Keysight were ?!?!?!

So much  .

Honestly from a UK perspective if I was in the business and didn't need completely specialist kit I'd probably only buy stuff from Telonic (Siglent / Rigol / Brymen etc), AIM-TTi, Peak and Picotech if I could. The risk assessment is somewhat more favourable if the investment is less painful to write off.

LOL don't have any idea of whom you're talking about.

Really this whole thread is about buyers reluctance to do their research with proper inquiries about future support with their equipment vendor.
Why would we be surprised when manufacturers don't wish to deal with customers directly but instead require their authorized agents to earn their keep.

Preparing for flames.............

[bdunham7]

I found that there was a wall which was related to not being in the US and having downloads manually approved.

Companies are paranoid about export controls. Keysight was fined up the wazoo in recent memory because a newly acquired foreign subsidiary decided to two-step some prohibited scopes into Iran.  I can see rapidly adopted blanket policies seeming silly at times.  I recently was looking for part for an instrument and while I waited to see if an eBay vendor would take my offer, I found it listed on one of those NSN-we-have-your-part websites.  I figured I'd check since I've had some luck sourcing some pretty hard-to-find stuff from these companies.  I put in my request and got back a reply asking for my company name, company email, company website, company location, end user location and some other stuff.  Apparently this part is an ITAR priority, the Taliban just can't wait to get their hands on it. 

It is a back case for a 1969 Simpson 270-3 VOM.  It arrived today from the eBay seller...

[Cerebus]

It is a back case for a 1969 Simpson 270-3 VOM.  It arrived today from the eBay seller...

Well, you know the old saying about the military always being ready to fight the previous war. In this case it looks like it's either Vietnam or Cyprus. 

[YetAnotherTechie]

Why would we be surprised when manufacturers don't wish to deal with customers directly but instead require their authorized agents to earn their keep.

I started this reply with: "I agree that the point is not clear if it's just the companies not wanting to deal with customers directly and expecting them to go to their local distributor (to me this is common)."
However i have to retract that, the wording of their despisement replies is indicative of not wanting us through that channel either.
Batronix recently had a warning about Keysight not wanting consumers, but they removed it because apparently other distributors were not refusing customers too.

We need experience from people going through authorized representatives to get a better picture.

[Bud]

There is no KS authorized representative on this forum, he is a volunteer helping where he can on his own.

[Oldtestgear]

Really this whole thread is about buyers reluctance to do their research with proper inquiries about future support with their equipment vendor.
Why would we be surprised when manufacturers don't wish to deal with customers directly but instead require their authorized agents to earn their keep.

Preparing for flames.............

If what you stated was accurate then it would be the buyers fault for purchasing from the wrong manufacturer. Sadly, in my case anyway, support was withdrawn only when I tried to buy a second periodic calibration for my 34470A. Last year it was calibrated with zero fuss or bother. The system just worked exactly as it should. I only purchased my new equipment from Keysight because of the great support I had getting an old 3458A refurbished ( new front panel etc.) & a calibration. Times change & it is unfair to blame buyers for expecting the level of support offered to others.

FWIW

Phil

[tautech]

Really this whole thread is about buyers reluctance to do their research with proper inquiries about future support with their equipment vendor.
Why would we be surprised when manufacturers don't wish to deal with customers directly but instead require their authorized agents to earn their keep.

Preparing for flames.............

If what you stated was accurate then it would be the buyers fault for purchasing from the wrong manufacturer. Sadly, in my case anyway, support was withdrawn only when I tried to buy a second periodic calibration for my 34470A. Last year it was calibrated with zero fuss or bother. The system just worked exactly as it should. I only purchased my new equipment from Keysight because of the great support I had getting an old 3458A refurbished ( new front panel etc.) & a calibration. Times change & it is unfair to blame buyers for expecting the level of support offered to others.

FWIW

Phil

Please don't confuse vendor with manufacturer although it does seem there has been a substantial sideshift in the support KS directly offers to individuals yet if inquiries for any reason end up in our manufacturers inbox they are always redirected to us to deal with. Yes we have to earn our authorized distributor status to retain the privileges that accompany such.

[nctnico]

Really this whole thread is about buyers reluctance to do their research with proper inquiries about future support with their equipment vendor.
Why would we be surprised when manufacturers don't wish to deal with customers directly but instead require their authorized agents to earn their keep.

Preparing for flames.............

If what you stated was accurate then it would be the buyers fault for purchasing from the wrong manufacturer. Sadly, in my case anyway, support was withdrawn only when I tried to buy a second periodic calibration for my 34470A. Last year it was calibrated with zero fuss or bother. The system just worked exactly as it should. I only purchased my new equipment from Keysight because of the great support I had getting an old 3458A refurbished ( new front panel etc.) & a calibration. Times change & it is unfair to blame buyers for expecting the level of support offered to others.

FWIW

Phil

Please don't confuse vendor with manufacturer although it does seem there has been a substantial sideshift in the support KS directly offers to individuals yet if inquiries for any reason end up in our manufacturers inbox they are always redirected to us to deal with. Yes we have to earn our authorized distributor status to retain the privileges that accompany such.

Well, it is not as if authorised distributors offer excellent service by definition. You are probably an outlier (at the positive side). My experience with authorised distributors is allover the place. From very good to extremely bad (one of your Dutch counterparts for example).

[Oldtestgear]

How many test equipment distributors have the facilities to back up the products they sell? In terms of pre sales support I guess many will do a great job. When a customer needs a repair or calibration it is unlikely that any distributor will be able to offer these services for a 34470A or any similar test equipement. It has to be the manufacturer that provides this level of support.  There are very few labs in the UK that can properly test a 34470A let alone repair one. Just look at the UKAS certificate for your chosen lab,  most cannot offer the full range of capability with the necessary uncertainties. This is not a criticism af labs in the UK, most do a good job within their stated capabilities.

[nctnico]

How many test equipment distributors have the facilities to back up the products they sell? In terms of pre sales support I guess many will do a great job. When a customer needs a repair or calibration it is unlikely that any distributor will be able to offer these services for a 34470A or any similar test equipement. It has to be the manufacturer that provides this level of support.  There are very few labs in the UK that can properly test a 34470A let alone repair one. Just look at the UKAS certificate for your chosen lab,  most cannot offer the full range of capability with the necessary uncertainties. This is not a criticism af labs in the UK, most do a good job within their stated capabilities.

The typical way this goes is that the equipment goes to the manufacturer or an accredited lab for calibration. The distributors just deal with the logistics part of shipping equipment back & forth (likely in larger batches towards the manufacturer / accredited lab). Ofcourse there are exceptions to this rule where a distributor has their own accredited lab.

About a decade ago I asked to have my Tektronix TDS744A calibrated for a project. It turned out there was only 1 place in Europe where they could do this.

[Cerebus]

There is no KS authorized representative on this forum, he is a volunteer helping where he can on his own.

Eh? Daniel Bogdanoff is employed in a public facing rôle for Keysight Marketing and is on this forum under the handle "Keysight DanielBogdanoff". What bit of any of that makes you think he is some sort of volunteer rather than an Authorized Representative? His presence here gives every impression of being here in an outreach rôle for Keysight.

People don't tend to let unauthorised volunteers give away $thousands in stock, doing that very publicly tends to result in a swift arrest for theft if you're "unauthorised". 

[Psi]

Yeah, it does look like keysight UK is attempting to sidestep needing to comply with B2C rules by stating they only do B2B. Once a company decides to go down that route they need to enforce it with an iron fist or the whole effort is kind of useless. Whenever i've seen this before though, they only sell to entities with an account with them and you need to be a business to get an account. So if anyone can buy from Keysight UK i'm not sure they have much of a leg to stand on no matter what their T&C says.

I do wonder if the OP has a monetized YouTube channel and has posted any videos that could be connected in any way to the test equipment.  He can legitimately claim to be a small self employed business if he did.

In any case, it wouldn't surprise me if keysight UK is operating outside of UK law in some way, but it would take someone more knowledgeable than me to figure that out.

It's always a good idea to make yourself seem like a company when communicating with companies that usually talk to other companies.  If you let slip that you're a hobbyist they sometime don't know how to handle your enquiry. And because it's so unusual for them they may seek guidance from their legal dept and things can go downhill fast. Especially with spare part requests. They suddenly get nervous you are going to get electrocuted and are advised by legal to stop all sales with you. Understand that once an employee in a company raises a customer safety concern in a recorded form like email/slack it becomes possible evidence that could be used later to prove company negligence if someone should be injured or die. So the legal dept will always advice the customer not to do that action and make sure the company takes no steps to support them doing it.

[coromonadalix]

When ordering part you could sign a release statement of somekind ??  Ks could not be liable of any wrong doing when buying parts ??   hum  this is discutable ...

I had to use my company name as an hobbyist to get some KS parts     The language barrier was awful

[Bassman59]

There is no KS authorized representative on this forum, he is a volunteer helping where he can on his own.

Eh? Daniel Bogdanoff is employed in a public facing rôle for Keysight Marketing and is on this forum under the handle "Keysight DanielBogdanoff". What bit of any of that makes you think he is some sort of volunteer rather than an Authorized Representative? His presence here gives every impression of being here in an outreach rôle for Keysight.

People don't tend to let unauthorised volunteers give away $thousands in stock, doing that very publicly tends to result in a swift arrest for theft if you're "unauthorised". 

I believe Daniel is based in the US. And my guess is that he's either unable to get straight answers out of KS UK, or he's been told that he cannot speak to this matter. Further, I suspect he's as frustrated by this as everyone posting on this thread.

I have not heard of any issues like this with service for US-based customers.

[Bud]

There is no KS authorized representative on this forum, he is a volunteer helping where he can on his own.

Eh? Daniel Bogdanoff is employed in a public facing rôle for Keysight Marketing and is on this forum under the handle "Keysight DanielBogdanoff". What bit of any of that makes you think he is some sort of volunteer rather than an Authorized Representative? His presence here gives every impression of being here in an outreach rôle for Keysight.

By his own account, my friend, by his own account. "This is my initiative, I am doing this in my spare time" - almost verbatim. I can envision him talking to his manager "do you mind if i do this?" , " ...Meh, whatever, if you have time for it"
Will be happy to hear from Daniel otherwise.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Well this thread is a party.

Yes, I am here on this forum as a mostly official Keysight rep. My day-to-day job isn't this, but it does fall into the larger role that I've built for myself. It was not a corporate "initiative" or anything like that, but it's something that I recognize as important. I've had the very unique opportunity to essentially define my day job at Keysight, and things like my presence here and the Keysight Labs YouTube channel have gotten folded into that. I have full support and can make official statements here, but also try to cut the corporate nonsense and give unofficial advice as needed.

That being said.

There are areas I'm not going to touch and will stick to the official statements that the powers-that-be have given me. I do this because I like my job and want to be able to keep this up. A lot of people have reached out to me through this forum and we've been able to help them out when they'd otherwise have been stuck or had a situation being handled in a way that I would consider not HPAK-level support. Those types of cases are somewhat inevitable in a business this large, and I want to help catch things that fall through the cracks. I say this not because I want to brag, but because I want to keep this thing going.

other comments: I am US based but my role and scope is global, believe me when I say that...uh... I hear all sorts of things from all over the place.

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

[nctnico]

It's always a good idea to make yourself seem like a company when communicating with companies that usually talk to other companies.

Translate that to: telling lies  This is exactly the kind of behaviour that makes companies check whether they are actually dealing with a company so they don't get lured into contract terms they didn't agree on.

[xrunner]

A lot of people have reached out to me through this forum and we've been able to help them out when they'd otherwise have been stuck or had a situation being handled in a way that I would consider not HPAK-level support. Those types of cases are somewhat inevitable in a business this large, and I want to help catch things that fall through the cracks. I say this not because I want to brag, but because I want to keep this thing going.

Yes indeed you have helped me get a part for a scope and the part really wasn't a high-value item. Thanks! 

[6thimage]

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

Is there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.

Well this thread is a party.

And we're out of party hats! I think you have to take that as how well loved your products are and how equally frustrating it is for us at the lower end to deal with this.


As a small update, I have phoned the UK contact centre and got the same response - business-to-business or nothing. I have found the part I believe I need on Keysight's website https://www.keysight.com/my/partDetail/34465-66522 and at least it isn't too expensive. I do wish there was an image of it though.