A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service

[bd139]

I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’re trivialising a lot of work which can be avoided.

For sure there is a learning curve but accountants are grossly overselling the complexity of their work when it comes to dealing with small companies which don't have employees / share holders. Administration in itself is easy if you can do basic calculus and nowadays you can find everything you need to know on internet. The only thing is that there are several administrative specific terms which sound more complicated than they actually are. Interestingly the Dutch tax forms don't even use these terms if they can be avoided.

And also from a warranty perspective it excludes you from consumer legislation which is advantageous most of the time.

But in turn this excludes you from dealing with companies that only sell to businesses (which is kind of the subject of this thread). I'm buying lots of stuff from companies that don't sell to consumers at all; for me having a company registration is part of being able to do business. Why would a wholesale company expose themselves to all the nitty gritties of consumer law? And it is not like new test equipment typically has a short warranty. 3 years is pretty common which is even better compared to consumer law!

I do mine in excel too. My accountant was hopeless.

As for consumer law you’re wrong. EU is 2 years. UK has basis for 6 years. I have successfully got replacement items after 5 years.

Really I don’t see why manufacturers shouldn’t be subject to this from a business perspective as well. It’s not good for the future of all of us making stuff that barely crawls past the minimum warranty period the manufacturer can get away with.

[tv84]

As for consumer law you’re wrong. EU is 2 years. UK has basis for 6 years.

Starting Jan. 1st it will be 3 years here for consumer products. Isn't that for whole EU?

3) HP --> Agilent --> Keysight -(I have the next for you)-> VATIDisKey

Next KS keygen will be called "VATIDisKeyGen". 

[nctnico]

I really like Keysight gear, their bench multimeters are better than any other manufacturer and their scopes are fantastic, but if this is how they treat you then I'm not going to buy anything else from Keysight.

1000 times this! I have my spider senses telling me that this could be true and not a single dumb case.

1) Money is money and a customer is a customer. What is this VAT ID bullshiiit? Did you take or not take my money in the past? Did you ask for my VAT ID? 

2) The glorious Ebay Keysight store will go down like a Boeing 737 max.

3) HP --> Agilent --> Keysight -(I have the next for you)-> VATIDisKey

VAT ID people are probably stressed and bored at work. Hobbyist have so much passion and can't wait to use their awesome gear again.
Well done KS, all your most passionate customers are jumping off your boat. I am sure the lower KS eng. are with us. I am in the fortunate position to met some of them in the past.
Awesome people.

This is monumentally stupid. Somebody with a good salary, a nice tie and good smell at KS will regret this.

More likely this is a consequence of tighter consumer protection laws in the EU. We all voted for making Apple, Amazon, Tesla, etc to respect our consumer rights (with right to repair as well) so don't go crying when their is some unexpected failout. As Keysight's business is mainly coming from companies it is logical that they don't want to deal with consumers if that means adhering to laws that are a moving target. Keysight has good service but they provide that on their own terms.

Needing a VAT ID to buy stuff from other countries is mainly due to trying to prevent criminals and terrorists to move money around.

[Zucca]

As Keysight's business is mainly coming from companies it is logical that they don't want to deal with consumers if that means adhering to laws that are a moving target. Keysight has good service but they provide that on their own terms.

Well here below the KS statement:

we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license

It will be nice to know why exactly it is like this. All the rest is speculation.

Regardless what is behind that, it is not good for KS AND us.

[DaJMasta]

It's also incongruous with their own marketing and messaging, they are clearly trying to make products that appeal to hobbyists/enthusiasts in addition to their high performance and educational lines and are marketing them accordingly, so it's disingenuous to then turn around and tell those same people they are unwilling to provide support.

There shouldn't be a means check for having to pay top dollar for their service (since it doesn't sound like the OP was sold a service and calibration plan).  It's not like their repair or replacement part prices are at cost or some bargain that doesn't include profit for Keysight, and as with many others manufacturers they have plenty of custom parts that can't be purchased in other channels and they no longer publish service manuals, so there really isn't an alternative either.

At best, it's acting in bad faith towards a market they are definitely trying to sell to and profit from.

[Cerebus]

I really like Keysight gear, their bench multimeters are better than any other manufacturer and their scopes are fantastic, but if this is how they treat you then I'm not going to buy anything else from Keysight.

1000 times this! I have my spider senses telling me that this could be true and not a single dumb case.

1) Money is money and a customer is a customer. What is this VAT ID bullshiiit? Did you take or not take my money in the past? Did you ask for my VAT ID? 

2) The glorious Ebay Keysight store will go down like a Boeing 737 max.

3) HP --> Agilent --> Keysight -(I have the next for you)-> VATIDisKey

VAT ID people are probably stressed and bored at work. Hobbyist have so much passion and can't wait to use their awesome gear again.
Well done KS, all your most passionate customers are jumping off your boat. I am sure the lower KS eng. are with us. I am in the fortunate position to met some of them in the past.
Awesome people.

This is monumentally stupid. Somebody with a good salary, a nice tie and good smell at KS will regret this.

More likely this is a consequence of tighter consumer protection laws in the EU. We all voted for making Apple, Amazon, Tesla, etc to respect our consumer rights (with right to repair as well) so don't go crying when their is some unexpected failout. As Keysight's business is mainly coming from companies it is logical that they don't want to deal with consumers if that means adhering to laws that are a moving target. Keysight has good service but they provide that on their own terms.

The problem is not that, it is Keysight deciding to use their own narrow version of "not a consumer sale" that excludes many professionals and other end users who would be quite happy to say "this isn't a consumer purchase" and would probably be adjudged by a competent court of law to be buying in a non-consumer capacity, but not so judged by Keysight's own barrack room lawyers. I have no problem with Keysight dodging consumer protection law here, just with the way they are doing it.

The truth is that we don't know for sure that "consumer protection law" is the issue thanks to the stunning silence on the issue except for the repeated parroting of "Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.".

Needing a VAT ID to buy stuff from other countries is mainly due to trying to prevent criminals and terrorists to move money around.

One doesn't need a VAT ID to buy stuff from other countries. <- That, that I say boy, is a full stop.

If you're going to make an argument and don't want to get laughed at, don't make one that is immediately contrary to the personal experience of the audience you're making the argument to. I would bet that over 90% of your readers here make personal purchases from countries other than their own all over the world, all the time, and have never needed to produce a VAT Id.

[wraper]

Needing a VAT ID to buy stuff from other countries is mainly due to trying to prevent criminals and terrorists to move money around.

That's some nonsense. Foreign companies do not care about your VAT number because it's irrelevant for them. Unless they provide DDP delivery. Importing stuff does not require VAT number as well.

[nctnico]

If you're going to make an argument and don't want to get laughed at, don't make one that is immediately contrary to the personal experience of the audience you're making the argument to. I would bet that over 90% of your readers here make personal purchases from countries other than their own all over the world, all the time, and have never needed to produce a VAT Id.

Try ordering something from a Spanish company as a EU citizen. So far I needed to provide my VAT ID on all purchases from Spain. I guess the joke is on you now. But do go ahead and keep shouting from your soap box Keysight is so bad yadda yadda yadda 

Big hint: you can buy Keysight gear from shops that sell to consumers and get your gear serviced through them.

[wraper]

Try ordering something from a Spanish company as a EU citizen. So far I needed to provide my VAT ID on all purchases from Spain. I guess the joke is on you now. But do go ahead and keep shouting from your soap box Keysight is so bad yadda yadda yadda 

That's not really a foreign trade, and stuff does not go through the customs. If someone from Spain wanted to buy, VAT number would be asked too.

[Cerebus]

If you're going to make an argument and don't want to get laughed at, don't make one that is immediately contrary to the personal experience of the audience you're making the argument to. I would bet that over 90% of your readers here make personal purchases from countries other than their own all over the world, all the time, and have never needed to produce a VAT Id.

Try ordering something from a Spanish company as a EU citizen. So far I needed to provide my VAT ID on all purchases from Spain. I guess the joke is on you now. But do go ahead and keep shouting from your soap box Keysight is so bad yadda yadda yadda 

Big hint: you can buy Keysight gear from shops that sell to consumers and get your gear serviced through them.

Don't be ridiculous. There's no need for a citizen, buying for themselves, to provide a VAT number - for a start hardly any individuals have one. When in a hole, stop digging.

[rsjsouza]

I can see where nctnico is coming from and I can tell that is my experience as well: in Brasil the consumer protection laws are tight (maybe not as tight as in EU) and most representatives and brands didn't use to sell directly to customers (I left ~15 years ago, so I don't know how it is today). Also, they did not want to deal with the hassle of warranties for a single purchase - they were after the higher $$$ amount from the private, education and public sectors. Over the years a few reps/disties opened up for the end consumer, but the burden to deal with them was left entirely on their hands.

Sure, if Keysight sells direct to the end customer, they have to deal with the warranty, returns and support contracted at the time of purchase (or mandated by law). Anything after that period is fair game.

They may well be soft-Brexiting the UK... 

[bd139]

It's more complicated than that.

You can buy Keysight stuff from CPC, Farnell, RS etc who all sell to private individuals and therefore are on the hook. There is no loophole for statutory law here.

Keysight must remove their stock from all those supply channels entirely and deal only with business accounts directly if they want to do this.

And I bet they won't do that because that's still a chunk of their customer base.

So the only option here is: stop being asshats to your customers.

[wraper]

You can buy Keysight stuff from CPC, Farnell, RS etc who all sell to private individuals and therefore are on the hook. There is no loophole for statutory law here.
Keysight must remove their stock from all those supply channels entirely and deal only with business accounts directly if they want to do this.
So the only option here is: stop being asshats to your customers.

I don't think that's the case. In EU (UK should be the same) seller is responsible for the warranty. If manufacturer provides warranty service, it's for convenience, not because of obligation. So CPC, Farnell, RS are on the hook, not Keysight.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It's more complicated than that.

You can buy Keysight stuff from CPC, Farnell, RS etc who all sell to private individuals and therefore are on the hook. There is no loophole for statutory law here.

Keysight must remove their stock from all those supply channels entirely and deal only with business accounts directly if they want to do this.

Farnell's terms of sale :

    2. Business customers

    The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any special cataogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

But they clearly don't enforce this, You don't even need to be registered to order. 
The terms are fairly well buried on the website - I'm not sure if the "I agree" bit you click at checkout references this, but either way, if it came to it in court you'd have a reasonable argument that you weren't aware of them.

Rapid don't have a similar clause - they don't sell KS, but they do sell Tek

[bd139]

Fair point with terms being applicable to the retailer. But again I’ve bought stuff directly from keysight before  without agreeing to any contractual terms as a consumer so YMMV on that.

The retailer can’t arbitrarily restrict your legal rights through secondary terms. That’s somewhat frowned upon.

Regarding the keysight warranty I’d be interested to see if their own manufacturer warranty is applicable to individuals or they just cut you off immediately with no service.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Regarding the keysight warranty I’d be interested to see if their own manufacturer warranty is applicable to individuals or they just cut you off immediately with no service.

They would be in deep legal doodoo if they refused warranty service, as the warranty is part of what you are buying, not to mention the PR disaster that would ensue.

[tv84]

There's no need for a citizen, buying for themselves, to provide a VAT number - for a start hardly any individuals have one. When in a hole, stop digging.

Not so. Here any 6-year old to enter 1st grade will have to have a citizenship card which comes with "VAT number".

Regarding the business VAT, I see an opportunity here: being a middle man in providing  a business VAT, for a fee, in order to register the warranty claim before KS!   

BTW, what has Daniel Bogdanoff been doing in this forum? ? ? I think he's a rogue element and KS hasn't found out that he helps private consumers...     Maybe Daniel registers our cases internally with KS own VAT number!!!! 

[floobydust]

Can Keysight even provide a repair cost estimate? (assuming out of warranty)
OP is looking at a repair bill that is probably a main board swapout (refurb) plus cal and shipping.
It's a USD $3,600 piece of equipment. Other companies charge up to 50% of the cost of the instrument for the big board swap repair job, sometimes making it a dilemma to keep it or throw it out.

[Cerebus]

There's no need for a citizen, buying for themselves, to provide a VAT number - for a start hardly any individuals have one. When in a hole, stop digging.

Not so. Here any 6-year old to enter 1st grade will have to have a citizenship card which comes with "VAT number".

What, so every six year old gets an NIF? Do they charge their parents VAT on pocket money? Or is this just conflating a general tax identification number with something specific to Value Added Tax? Anyway, Keysight would insist on an NIPC, so it's not much help here.

[rsjsouza]

You can buy Keysight stuff from CPC, Farnell, RS etc who all sell to private individuals and therefore are on the hook. There is no loophole for statutory law here.
Keysight must remove their stock from all those supply channels entirely and deal only with business accounts directly if they want to do this.
So the only option here is: stop being asshats to your customers.

I don't think that's the case. In EU (UK should be the same) seller is responsible for the warranty. If manufacturer provides warranty service, it's for convenience, not because of obligation. So CPC, Farnell, RS are on the hook, not Keysight.

Yeah, that is my point. The dealer "deals" with the return alongside the customer and then goes to the manufacturer to deal with the warranty. Many years ago the law was so weak in Brasil that, in case of any defects apart from 0day, the customer had to take the product to an authorized service repair store and deal with the inconvenience (although not the cost if the product was under warranty). Returns are something of a first world thing, although the situation there improved and you can return within 72 hours.

Regarding the keysight warranty I’d be interested to see if their own manufacturer warranty is applicable to individuals or they just cut you off immediately with no service.

They would be in deep legal doodoo if they refused warranty service, as the warranty is part of what you are buying, not to mention the PR disaster that would ensue.

Put enough pressure and the company leaves the country. Sure, it is UK and the market is quite large (I imagine), but I have seen this happen as well and you are left with importers dealing with contraband or its soft name "grey market".

[tv84]

What, so every six year old gets an NIF? Do they charge their parents VAT on pocket money? Or is this just conflating a general tax identification number with something specific to Value Added Tax? Anyway, Keysight would insist on an NIPC, so it's not much help here.

Correct, it's the individual fiscal ID of each citizen which, for the fiscal authority, can be used unfortunately for a huge number of things, including the taxation of a big transfer of money between parents and children...
If the citizen wants to do a freelance service he can use its "personal" fiscal ID without registering a business ID. Taken from the web: "Sole traders, freelancers, and people who run unincorporated businesses in Portugal have their income treated as personal earnings and pay Portuguese income tax rather than corporate tax."

https://www.practiceportuguese.com/how-to-become-a-freelancer-in-portugal-and-issue-recibos-verdes/

Can Keysight even provide a repair cost estimate? (assuming out of warranty)

If they wanted, they could do anything as its their product.

But, with the above policy, in the US it's probably easier for anyone to have an AK-47 repaired than a KS scope.

[tomud]

@6thimage

After reading it, I lost my will to buy the Keysight 34465A 

I'm starting to wonder if I should sell the dsox3054A (I don't need such problems in the future).

If what you wrote is true. I will think for a long time before I order some of their equipment for the company I work for (Today this is how they treat one client, tomorrow it may be the same for a larger company).

It is abnormal what they do 

[BU508A]

Maybe Dave is willing to do a video about this two cases and may get some responses from Keysight?

Case 1

Case 2

[Zucca]

#davemakeavideo

and we should fire up Louis Rossman too...

[hpw]

Did checked with my KS supplier...

They deal or do the support... while also asked how to enter/register my gear.

Interesting would be, how they deal with the ebay selling... as discounted gear and renewal...