Author Topic: 8.5 digit DMMs  (Read 80321 times)

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alm

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2013, 05:20:36 pm »
LEDs also have a finite life, depending on how hard they're driven. Not usually a problem for indicator LEDs, but might be an issue for a backlight application. LCDs also have a problem with high temperatures. If the military is still a significant market (it was for the 3458a), then this might be an issue.

Note that LCDs only got introduced in Agilent's mainstream bench meters this year. Expect a 8.5 digit meter to have an even more conservative design, since their design cycle is much longer. At the current rate, a design would have to last past 2038...
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2013, 10:04:51 pm »
LEDs also have a finite life, depending on how hard they're driven. Not usually a problem for indicator LEDs, but might be an issue for a backlight application. LCDs also have a problem with high temperatures. If the military is still a significant market (it was for the 3458a), then this might be an issue.



My business unit of an automotive supplier company designs instrument clusters, HUDs, HVAC control, and secondary displays.

Requirements on application and components are comparable to military, -40..+85°C environmental, >= 10yrs. lifetime.

LEDs last that long, w/o any problem, because we chose the appropriate LED-technology and have a sophisticated temperature management.
If the temperature rises, the LEDs will be dimmed. Their lifetime (50% of initial luminosity) depends on chip temperature only.
Also, the current might be increased, if the luminosity decreases later.

We also developed automotive LCDs for that temperature range.
Thumb of rule: fully operating between -10..+60°C, outside that range the LCD might be heated at low temperatures, or restrictions to the performance may apply, as longer switching time, lesser contrast, etc.

Frank
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2013, 10:13:49 pm »


For *my* dream 8.5+ digit DMM, I am not really interested in operating at 55C ambient-- this is (IMHO) one of the big failings of the 3458A for metrology use-- they had to run the voltage reference at very high 90C+ temperatures so they can claim the DMM will operate at up to 55C-- and this takes a terrible toll on the reference's long term stability specs.  (And, it's funny-- the military only uses this in their cal-labs, which are temperature controlled-- they "over-spec'd" the RFP).  In *my* world, this new DMM would be specifically targeted at metrology only, with a more reasonable temperature range of (say) 18C to 35C ambient-- (most electronics labs would fit within this range)...


If you use the 3458A in a metrological temp range, i.e. at around 23° +/- 3°C, then it is really near to perfect, and will reward you with really metrological performance.

The interior will heat up to no more than 40°C,
My unit is always at around 35°C, at 22°C R.T. and as I take care on the fan filter.

The LTZ1000 drift only applies if the instrument is turned on 24/7, which would also degrade the VFD.

But if you run it intermittently (in Germany we cannot afford high consumption of electricity any more  :--), and pimp the LTZ1000 to a lower than 95°C temperature, you really have very small drift.

Therefore, the 3458A is already the machine you're looking for..

Frank
 

alm

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2013, 10:25:00 pm »
Otherwise consider the Fluke 8508a. It's only specified up to 40°C, so it probably runs its reference at a lower temperature. Similar to the Fluke/HP 3458a/HFL. Might be slightly more expensive to acquire, though, and I think some specs (transfer accuracy? AC?) might be worse. Doesn't use artifact calibration either, I think.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 07:28:50 am »
Yes, for now, the 3458A is the best I can get.  I have not "pimped" mine for a lower LTZ1000 temperature yet.  The reported internal temperature on mine stays at about 15C above ambient if I keep the fan filter clean (which I clean every day).  So, I guess if I "pimp" the reference, I will see even better than the <2ppm/yr I am already seeing?  Wow!

I would still like to see Agilent come out with a new model that has all of the features I described (and that others have added to).  This 3458A is a large and heavy beast after all.  I think with more modern components, and a better more modern user interface Agilent can improve on this.

Mine is always 12-13K above R.T. only, standing on a desk, fan entry is freely accessible, also the slots outlets on the side
Did you place yours in a rack? Then some Kelvins are to be added.

Anyhow, 60°C is the lowest possible stabilization temperature for this LTZ1000A:  (25 + 15 + 10 + 10) °C.

Cleaning fan filter every day??  :clap:
Do you let yours run 24/7?   
(30W - that would be a sin here in Germany! Saving energy and CO2 is nearly a religion here.)

It's rumored, that elder 3458As improve on their references stability, so they reach the option 02 after a few yers.

But I did nowhere find any specifications, (HP3458A and all the other 8,5 digits DMMs), how the stability parameter is defined, on 24/7 operation only, or also intermittently.
And does the stabilization process begin every time you switch the instrument on again?

Anyhow, I have published my stability figures in the LTZ thread, showing the comparison between an HP3458A and a Fluke 5442A, both operated intermittently.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ultra-precision-reference-ltz1000/270/

Both remained within 1ppm in 3-4 years, but the comparison graph shows relatively big fluctuations of say 0.3ppm from data acquisition point to the next.. which I relate to the intermittent  operation.

So I assume a 0.3ppm/sqrt(2)/ yr. stability for each instrument from those data.

Frank
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 10:33:10 pm »
I will keep that in mind when selecting the "pimping" resistor-- what do you think, about 75K?

75k gives 12.5k or 50°C, that's too low, I think, especially in your nice, hot place.
I have chosen 100k (precision wire wound)  for 65°C.

I didn't want to get off-topic, (but you opened the door):
I am not too much worried about the CO2, since that is a big hoax that was promulgated by Al Gore and his scientist buddies at NOAA, NASA, and the East Anglia University in England.  Haven't you seen the "ClimateGate scandal" about the emails threatening scientists to "tow the line" on this?  How about the "hacked" computer model that "proves" humans are causing global climate change?  (All of this is available for download on Wikileaks and Bit-Torrent if you care to look).  Did you know Al Gore has set up a "CO2 credit" trading company, and he stands to make billions of dollars from this?  I wanted to know what was really going on, so I traveled to the National Center for Atmospheric Research [NCAR] in Boulder Colorado.  This is the place where everyone in the world sends there weather data.  The data is crunched by super computers in the basement (which I saw), and these make world-wide weather predictions.  These scientists are to the left of Chairman Mao-- and so they have a strong political incentive to back the "official story" (of anthropomorphic climate change)-- but, to their credit, they refuse to whore themselves (and their scientific reputations), and so they tell the truth-- humans are causing somewhere between 2% and 5% of the total climate change-- the rest is caused by natural geologic changes and (mostly) changes in the heat output of the sun.


Well, I'm also very skeptical, as I think those meteorologists do not use strictly scientific methods.
They capture very small effects, and comparing the big time scale where natural climate changes happen (several 10k years) to the very small time scale where data were collected precisely (<50years), I feel that the statistical  basis and the evidence of their arguments are not correct.
Meanwhile, it turns out that they did not take every possible other effects into account to prove root cause by mankind, but perhaps only those, which fit in their picture and in their theory.

Especially this very determinative, often agressive attitude of this meteorological community, compared to those subtle effects makes me doubt the correctness of their thesis.

That's very weird for me, because the scientific community of physicists is much more cautious in this subject.
They also speak of "indication" for a climate change by mankind, but not of "a matter of fact".
It is also usual and absolutely required in physics to make very critical reviews of theories and methods.

And this is what is totally lacking at the meteorologists.. every critical voice has been damned by them.
That's totally un-scientific.

For two totally different reasons, I think that we really should save CO2, anyhow:

- It's a pity to simply burn oil and other fossil material, instead of producing more valuable products out of it, as medicine, plastics, and so on.
If the oil is gone, it will be very hard to find a replacement. 
- If we simply exhaust fossil material to produce "energy", without the need to search for any alternative afterwards, this will for sure create wars for the remainders.

I live in Las Vegas Nevada, USA-- the climate here is very hot in the summer, and I am spending about US$500 per month on electricity just to keep the house cool.  It is starting to cool down a little bit now, so my power bills are going to go down a bit.  So the 30W that the 3458A takes is a "drop in the ocean" compared to the big picture.


OK, then it's really true that Americans use about 10 times more energy than even Europeans..  ::)
Perhaps only those living in hot areas of the US..  ;)

We pay 1200€ (1500$) per year for electrical energy, 4800kWh/yr, and the price is still rising (>27 EU-Cents / KWh).

My 3458A has an HP badge on the front.  It has the newer front panel color that the new Agilent 3458A's have.  So it's not one of the first units off the production line, but it has to have been made before the HP instrumentation group became Agilent, which (IIRC) was over a decade ago-- so yes, the reference can be considered to be "well aged". 

Should be produced before 2001. Did you check date codes on the components inside?
Which serial number do you have? I.e. the digits behind the 2823A?
Joe Geller collects those numbers to estimate, when a certain serial number has been produced.
He thinks, that the 5 digits are in consecutive order, so about 40k instruments have been built between 1989 and today.
He will be delighted, if you send him the serial number of your HP3458A and an estimate from the date codes.

Frank
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 06:03:46 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 10:42:41 pm »
I'm Canadian, but I live in an apartment I use between 500-1000kWh per month..
How do you use ~3.7k per year?! Heating is provided by the building owner, however the stove is electric.
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Offline JoeyP

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 11:18:02 pm »
- It's a pity to simply burn oil and other fossil material, instead of producing more valuable products out of it, as medicine, plastics, and so on.
If the oil is gone, it will be very hard to find a replacement. 

This is my concern also. I think the CO2 thing is a complete hoax by a bunch of self-serving pseudo-"scientists" profiting from grants to study it. In fact, I make a point of flooring the throttle on my vehicle each time I pass a Prius, leaving them in the biggest cloud of CO2 that I can make >:D However, we get so much more than energy from crude oil. Completely excluding its energy content, it is still the basis for much of our industry and economy, and cannot easily be replaced. The good news, is that as a result of fracking techniques, quite a lot of new oil reserves are being found in the US and other areas of the world, so probably have many many years before we run out.
 

Offline quarksTopic starter

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2014, 04:50:01 pm »
For those who are intersted, I updated some Content (see first page).
i.e. added the russian ZIP Nauchpribor KM300, which Mickle T. had in his comparison document
 

Offline Mickle T.

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2014, 08:09:14 am »
8.5-digit DMMs summary update:

 

Offline saturation

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2014, 02:43:23 pm »
Here's an updated link to a Chinese forum with a detailed evaluation of 8.5 digit DMMs:

http://www.eefocus.com/article/09-04/70848s.html

Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline quarksTopic starter

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2016, 06:43:29 pm »
Does anybody know how to move this to "Metrology"?
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2016, 07:04:51 pm »
Are there any reviews / teardowns of the ZIP Nauchpribor KM300 or any of those other Russian designs?
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2016, 10:24:32 pm »
Here's an updated link to a Chinese forum with a detailed evaluation of 8.5 digit DMMs:

http://www.eefocus.com/article/09-04/70848s.html

This old interesting link is dead. Google translated web.archive.org link here.  :-+
 

Offline quarksTopic starter

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2016, 04:19:32 pm »
today I had to check some resistance data
After that I updated the resistance comparison graph and changed the 1 year spec  for the Fluke 8508A to "Uncertainty Relative to Cal Stds".
Before I used the 365 day "Absolute Uncertainties", which most other DMMs do not specify.
Now the data is better comparable.

@Moderator, is it possible to move this to "Metrology"?

Edit: new graph because of an error I found
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 10:42:58 am by quarks »
 
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Offline fonograph

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2016, 06:31:39 pm »
Did anybody have any experience with the Transmille unit? especialy compared to Fluke 8508a...

What is the fastest time they can measure 8.5 digit?

How much they cost? Is Fluke still being made & sold or its second hand ebay only?
 

Offline saturnin

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2016, 09:16:00 pm »
 
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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2017, 08:19:22 pm »
Well, it's time to update the Hi-DMMs summary with a newest ADCMT 7480T (Japan) and Rhythm V2-45 (Russia).
 
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2017, 10:32:51 pm »
Well, it's time to update the Hi-DMMs summary with a newest ADCMT 7480T (Japan) and Rhythm V2-45 (Russia).

An additional column for the price would be useful.
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Offline kultakala

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2017, 01:28:19 pm »
@fonograph

FYI: https://www.transmillecalibration.com/8-5-digit-precision-multimeter-comparison/

I found the linked video quite interesting...  first time i saw the 8081 in action...  Okay, the guy is a little bit lulling me  ::)

 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2017, 06:57:57 am »
Well, it's time to update the Hi-DMMs summary with a newest ADCMT 7480T (Japan) and Rhythm V2-45 (Russia).

This table is great!  Has anyone assembled something similar for 6.5-digit models?
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Offline alm

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2017, 12:34:26 pm »
That list would be much longer. 6.5 digit has been the standard for high-end bench meters for decades, so pretty much any serious bench meter manufacturer has made one.

Offline TiN

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2017, 01:21:07 pm »
Never heard of Transmille used in any of the standards lab.
Also their specifications are mmm.... very scarce. Probably good meters, but not for metrology applications.
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Offline tooki

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2017, 03:47:11 pm »
@fonograph

FYI: https://www.transmillecalibration.com/8-5-digit-precision-multimeter-comparison/

I found the linked video quite interesting...  first time i saw the 8081 in action...  Okay, the guy is a little bit lulling me  ::)


The design of that meter is vaguely reminiscent of the Datron models - given that it's also English, I wonder if maybe former Datron engineers formed a new company after the Fluke acquisition?
 

Offline Vgkid

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Re: 8.5 digit DMMs
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2017, 05:17:28 pm »
Those Transmille multimeters remind me of updated Solartron multimeters.
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