Author Topic: 3458A - "Error 209: Harware Failure: Timeout - Unable to read A/D" (Read 15731 times)

quarks · « **on:** April 14, 2014, 04:32:50 pm »

Hello,

I read about that ERROR in the PMEL Forum
see
http://www.pmelforum.com/index.php?topic=1070.msg20940#msg20940
I wonder what msrichmond found out when he stated: "Never mind, something simple...timing oscillator is not timing."
I registered at PMEL and send him a PM and also asked if anyone there knows the solution for the described problem, but unfortunately got no response.

Does by chance anyone here know what the solution for the problem was?

thanks
quarks

quarks · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2014, 04:01:32 pm »

unfortunately so far nobody here and in pmel forum replied.

My investigations on this error showed some strange behavior.
When in DCV mode with long integration time the reading is freezing after a short time (sometimes almost instantly and sometimes between 1s to 15s). With very fast sampling time (<NPLC 0.01) it is running without problem. Also in ACV it is not showing the error.

Does anyone have a clue/hint/idea?

thanks
quarks

jlmoon · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2014, 04:42:53 pm »

Quote

Does anyone have a clue/hint/idea?

Howdy! With the precision of a 3458A..meter, Agilent and $2740.46 comes to mind. I just sent one to the Loveland, Colorado repair lab and it cost a nice $2740.46 .. no questions asked. They went through the entire meter replacing any and everything that even looked worn or broken.. including the keypad, outer bezel, rear panel and display , this includes a max/min / 2 cal which is the factory spec when the meter leaves the factory. I opted for the Standards Lab cal on top of that because the meter really deserves a really good calibration using gold standards. The service experience was awesome as well.. totally white glove and very professional.
Just a suggestion if the resources are available..

JLM

acbern · « **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2014, 04:48:23 pm »

this is really just a guess, as you would expect based on the wideness of the problem mentioned. what came in mind is something i saw on an other hp test gear. if the relay switching the voltage to the a/d does not work properly (i.e. contact closure bad/instable) the voltage the converter sees may have fluctuations over time, these may be covered in short conversion cycles, but in long cycles the multislope converter may just not be able to converge and stop. again, just one potential answer to the question.

but please, if you find out, let us know

quarks · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2014, 06:13:31 pm »

Quote from: jlmoon on April 28, 2014, 04:42:53 pm

Quote
Does anyone have a clue/hint/idea?

Howdy! With the precision of a 3458A..meter, Agilent and $2740.46 comes to mind. I just sent one to the Loveland, Colorado repair lab and it cost a nice $2740.46 .. no questions asked. They went through the entire meter replacing any and everything that even looked worn or broken.. including the keypad, outer bezel, rear panel and display , this includes a max/min / 2 cal which is the factory spec when the meter leaves the factory. I opted for the Standards Lab cal on top of that because the meter really deserves a really good calibration using gold standards. The service experience was awesome as well.. totally white glove and very professional.
Just a suggestion if the resources are available..

JLM

Thanks for the reply. I know/knew about this option and if I could get your described "Loveland Service" it really would be great. But unfortunately I am in Germany and I do not know if the German Service is able to provide the same level as Loveland (my guess is probably not). Also I want try to find the root cause. But if I fail, I will remember your suggestion.

Quote from: acbern on April 28, 2014, 04:48:23 pm

this is really just a guess, as you would expect based on the wideness of the problem mentioned. what came in mind is something i saw on an other hp test gear. if the relay switching the voltage to the a/d does not work properly (i.e. contact closure bad/instable) the voltage the converter sees may have fluctuations over time, these may be covered in short conversion cycles, but in long cycles the multislope converter may just not be able to converge and stop. again, just one potential answer to the question.

but please, if you find out, let us know

thanks for your reply. Right now I still think/hope it is something really simple as the PMEL poster seemed to have found out. So I will further investigate.

vaualbus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2014, 07:06:22 pm »

So by reading the blog you linked it seem that what the user would say that the internal instrument frequency is not right. Now If that user change the A/D board and nothingh change we are sure that the problem is somewhere else. A few time ago I saw a schematics of the device.
The unit use an inetrnal 10Mhz reference so If it is bad you could have that error.
Best regards, Alberto.

jlmoon · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2014, 08:14:48 pm »

Quarks,,

oh sorry, I wasn't aware you were in Germany.. sometimes I forget there are other places these things could exist. ..

I know this is a long shot without the service / functional operation in front of me. Do you know for sure if your calibration constant NVRAM is in good shape? Is if possible the battery has died in that chip causing this mode of failure? Do you get any other errors when you first power the machine?

JLM

quarks · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2014, 08:09:13 pm »

Problem is only on A3 board. Nothing else is involved. Therefore unfortunately the PMEL threat was leading me in a wrong direction. A3 board swap fixed the problem.

acbern · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2014, 03:25:01 pm »

so have you found out what failure it was then on the a3 board. have same failure.

acbern · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2014, 07:22:47 pm »

never mind, fixed it, it was on the a/d converter board. seems to be a systematic problem as so many show this error.

theatrus · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2014, 03:39:54 am »

What did you fix?

philipz · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2015, 08:38:47 am »

I have device with the same error.

Further investigation give me result that trigger signal (LEVEL) from A2 AC board is entered to pin 11 of U210 on A3 board, but signal SHTRG (XT/H) which must drive Sample and Hold on A2 AC board is not going out. Suspected is U210 or missing signal. I'm looking for detailed description of operation of A3 board or better U210 CMOS array. Also looking for defective A3 board with good U210 or only U210 (1820-5770) MB651314 from Fujitsu.

I would be grateful for any help.

philipz · « **Reply #12 on:** May 27, 2015, 06:58:14 pm »

I found the problem with help from frank_stellmach from Yahoo Agilent group (Thank you Frank) - it was in faulty U405 EL2018. Hope in the future someone can use this info.

bingo600 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 27, 2015, 07:31:28 pm »

Quote from: philipz on May 27, 2015, 06:58:14 pm

I found the problem with help from frank_stellmach from Yahoo Agilent group (Thank you Frank) - it was in faulty U405 EL2018. Hope in the future someone can use this info.

The would be Dr. Frank on this forum
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=53397

/Bingo

Dr. Frank · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2015, 10:43:34 pm »

Yes, I'm the same person.
Anyhow.
This 3458A would be rescued, only if I'm really correct in my assumption, and if an appropriate solution can be found and implemented.

These obsolete EL2018 (~5 EA in the 3458A) seem to fail after many years.

Several ADC errors also have their root cause to their breakdown.

I've seen a picture of an agilent original (?) replacement of these comparators on the ADC board, by an SMD two fold fast comparator, (piggy back) but I cannot remember the correct site, nor supplier, nor type designator, I'm so sorry.

Maybe anybody else can help.

Otherwise, give the Chinese sellers a chance.

Frank

ManateeMafia · « **Reply #15 on:** May 28, 2015, 12:26:05 am »

Dr Frank,

I bought a board from Agilent last year. It has the mod to which you most likely refer. I have attached a couple of full size images. It appears to use the ~~EL2252CN~~ EL2252CM comparator. I can try to get better pics if anyone is interested.

Dr. Frank · « **Reply #16 on:** May 28, 2015, 05:55:47 am »

ManateeMafia,

your pictures are very good, but the outlook for defective 3458As are not..

the replacement EL2252 is also obsolete, as it has been manufactured by the same supplier.

Frank

Andreas · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2015, 09:06:02 am »

Quote from: Dr. Frank on May 28, 2015, 05:55:47 am

ManateeMafia,

your pictures are very good, but the outlook for defective 3458As are not..

the replacement EL2252 is also obsolete, as it has been manufactured by the same supplier.

Frank

Rochester still has some.

With best regards

Andreas

MadTux · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2015, 01:24:01 pm »

Ebay is filled with EL2252s
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=el+2018&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XEL2252.TRS0&_nkw=EL2252&_sacat=0

Take these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/QTY-5-EL2252CN-ELANTEC-14-PIN-DIP-VOLTAGE-COMPARATOR-FREE-SHIPPING-/121203386865?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3848e9f1

Take cheap DIP8 IC (NE555), a dremel and drill it's guts (die) out. Then shorten/cut the leads of the EL2252, stick it with some super glue on the back of the gutted NE555 and use some thin copper wire to rewire one of the EL2018 inside EL2252 to the top of the NE555 pins.

philipz · « **Reply #19 on:** July 04, 2015, 09:19:56 pm »

Few days ago receive EL2018 from HKUTSource http://www.ebay.com/itm/EL2018CN-Encapsulation-DIP-8-Fast-/380658308131?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58a100d423
Replace U405 on device and tadaaa - now 3458A have ACSyncro working fine. As already write issue was confirmed by replacing this chip with other comparator, but now working how HP designed.

I want to tell one more time Thank you to Dr. Frank for guiding in right direction.

broketest · « **Reply #20 on:** June 30, 2017, 09:13:50 am »

Hi to all,

I found this forum ,having errors 209 & 210. No measurements in VDC,ADC, Ohms & Freqs. ACAL impossible. I tried to replace 2x EL2018CN, don't work better.

I see that U405 might be replaced, but many talk of a EL2018CN but on my 3458A it's an MC34072P, which are not the same.

Some are aware of those differences?

Thanks for any help,
Damien.

ManateeMafia · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2017, 01:53:40 pm »

U405 on the A2 board is the MC34072P.

U405 on the A3 board is the EL2018.

Change NPLC to .001 and see if you can at least get some readings.

broketest · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2017, 12:17:28 pm »

Thank you very much for your help Manatee Mafia.

Effectively it was a confusion from me . I searched U405 for long, but i have the EL2252CM modification in place of U142 & U405. Replaced by two EL2018CN and it now works fine, got readings @ NPLC 0.001 .

Now i have the "multislope or balanced" convergence error, seems U301 A3's defective, got to replace the R-2521 receiver...

TiN · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2017, 01:01:10 pm »

broketest

Quote

Now i have the "multislope or balanced" convergence error, seems U301 A3's defective, got to replace the R-2521 receiver...

Bad news, this error in 99.8% means charge slope hybrid is gonesky, and you are in for new A3 replacement (1.3K$ from Keysight). If optical intereface bad it would just throw ISOLATOR FAILURE.

broketest · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2017, 02:44:44 pm »

Hi to all,

I come back after this 3458A that still give me hard times. After replacing the A/D board by a fresh one from Keysight, the device now reads in DC, pass the Autocal but totally randomly fails the autocal @ ACV Ratio 1, or even while using indicates Overload on AC channel, and no reading anymore in Ohms too.

A tech @ Keysight told me that my 3458a is an older version and needs to be updated with the newest ROM, which is way too expensive to add to the costs already put in.

I suspect a temperature drift or error somewhere... Anyone have an idea? Thanks in advance for any tip


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Author Topic: 3458A - "Error 209: Harware Failure: Timeout - Unable to read A/D" (Read 15731 times)

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