12Bit Scope additional/replacement to Siglent 2104X Plus & Rigol DS1054Z

[points2]

Hi,
about "what 12b scope to replace by 8bit scope ?"
(maybe I'm wrong, please correct me if so)

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !

12bit vs 8bit = the cosmetic stuff => on the Y-axis.
But what costs much is the X-axis resolution ! <= the bottleneck (cost related) of any scope is the X-axis, not the Y-axis !
 

[Markus2801A]

It took me about 5 minutes to 'upgrade' my 70 MHz 50 Mpt SDS804X HD into a 200 MHz 100 Mpt SDS824X HD ;-)   So simple I hesitate to even call it a 'hack'.

Thanks for the clarification!  It will save me money 

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack.
(the model is stored in a file so just substitute the file and restart the 'scope app).

 Okay, but than there are statements like this:

Ignore anybody that tells you that you can "upgrade" DHO800 to DHO900. They are NOT same hardware,

You can enable all DHO900 software options and all DHO900 bandwidth/memory options.

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack

I wouldn't do that. There is no need,
A DHO804 and "gently" upgrade it to the 814.

Yes, I was just keeping the answer simple ("yes!") but the 814 with memory upgrade is the sanest variation of these 'scopes.

Now I'm confused, are DHO800 fully upgradeable to DHO900 Series or do the DHO900 Series have different Hardware, so an upgrade is not possible via software hack?
Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !

12bit vs 8bit = the cosmetic stuff => on the Y-axis.
But what costs much is the X-axis resolution ! <= the bottleneck (cost related) of any scope is the X-axis, not the Y-axis !
 

Thanks for that, I second that but additional to GS/s I think 12Bits are really "nice to have" and nowadays affordable.

Just to bring a this Idea in in:

And I still think that if he wants to experience a general "over-all" improvement, then he should sell his two scopes and get an SDS2000X HD.

Somewhere here on eevblog I read "SDS2000X HD backdoor closed", so it's not possible to upgrade bandwidth like I was able to do on my SDS2104X?

[Geoff-AU]

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !

Give the man a fast comparator and he's happy 

[2N3055]

Now I'm confused, are DHO800 fully upgradeable to DHO900 Series or do the DHO900 Series have different Hardware, so an upgrade is not possible via software hack?
Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

Let me repeat.

Ignore anybody that tells you that you can "upgrade" DHO800 to DHO900. They are NOT same hardware, and DHO900 is horrible and failed design. Either get DHO800 and stick with it or get something else.

DHO800 has maximum sample rate of 1.25 GS/s that drops to quarter of that when using 4 ch. So you are sampling at 312.5 MS/s. Meaning no more than 150 MHz can be sampled.
Which DHO814 has about 150-170 MHz BW and that combination seems to work fine.

SDS800xHD from Siglent samples at 2GS->1GS->500MS/s as you go so that one can support up to 240 MHz without problems with all 4 Ch on.

If you want simple, cheapest 12 bit scope, DHO814 will give you low noise and basic functions. I don't know what is the state of bugs at this moment, I gave up on tracking that.
DHO800 also has HDMI monitor output if that might be important to you (for school presentations, for instance).

SD800xHD has very good Web interface OTOH, that can be used for presentations too.
If you want scope that will have quite advanced analysis and math capabilities, mapping of network drives for easier data sharing, good BODE plotting (you'll need additional AWG for that, but any number of Siglent AWG work for this) etc, than SDS8000xHD is the choice.
Since you already have SDS2000X+, 800xHD drives pretty much the same..

[tautech]

Somewhere here on eevblog I read "SDS2000X HD backdoor closed", so it's not possible to upgrade bandwidth like I was able to do on my SDS2104X?

No.
Hack is not public yet.

For now if you must have 12bit SDS800X HD or 1000X HD and upgrade BW capability are your best bets.

[Fungus]

Now I'm confused, are DHO800 fully upgradeable to DHO900 Series

Yes.

do the DHO900 Series have different Hardware

Only the extra connector on the front is different.

Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

Because the measured bandwidths of these 'scopes are MUCH higher than what the stickers say on the front.

The "DHO814" configuration has 200MHz real bandwidth and that's the best choice for this hardware.

[TomKatt]

Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

I think what people here are trying to tell you is that because the DHO800 AND DHO900 series have 1.25 Gb/s sampling, as you use more channels that sampling rate drops to 312.5 Mb/s at 4 channels, which is not sufficient for accurate 200 MHz BW work.  The DHO814 is rated for 100 MHz so is in the 'safe zone' for accurate sampling using 4 channels.  Rigol seems to be playing a little game advertising BW because both DHO800 and DHO900 can only accurately sample 200MHz with 2 channels due to 1.25 Gb/s sampling shared across all channels.  So if you upgrade DHO804 to DHO900 series and use 4 channels for 200 MHz BW work you may not realize the results are questionable - safer to limit BW to what sampling is capable of.

But nothing stops you from upgrading DHO800 to DHO900 for other features if you keep that in mind.  The problem is you can easily forget.

Siglent has 2 Gb/s sampling, so can more safely use 4 channels for 200 MHz BW work.  Of course, not everyone need such high BW to begin with.

[Markus2801A]

Too bad the Siglent SDS804X HD seems to have a long delivery time and the SDS814X HD costs almost +100€ more.

So I will have to wait and have more time to rethink my whole purchase decision.
Are there any other suitable models out there that I may have overlooked?

Kind regards,
Markus 

[Martin72]

Too bad the Siglent SDS804X HD seems to have a long delivery time and the SDS814X HD costs almost +100€ more.

You would recoup this with the sale of your DS1054Z...

[TomKatt]

Too bad the Siglent SDS804X HD seems to have a long delivery time and the SDS814X HD costs almost +100€ more.

It’s worth 100 Euros if you can wait - the SDS804X can be upgraded to the 200 MHz SDS824X version for free…. That’s nearly a 25% savings compared to the SDS814X.

[Martin72]

Are there any other suitable models out there that I may have overlooked?

Certainly not when it comes to affordable "real" 12bit (i.e. without restrictions).
At the moment, the 12-bit is really hyped.
In this hype, it's easy to overlook the pitfalls of higher resolution, especially when it has to be cheap.
The signal display on the SDS2000X HD, for example, is not comparable with that on the SDS800X HD, although both displays have the same resolution and a smaller display would normally have an advantage, which is not the case here.
Also, during the time I had the SDS800X HD in the house, I could not find a clear test situation where it clearly stands out from a low-noise 8-bit scope like the SDS1104X-E in terms of signal presentation.
And that is the point.
What do you expect from the higher ADC resolution, but what the brochures of all manufacturers always emphasize?
A clearer representation of the waveforms.
If I have the same display on the screen as on my old 8-bit scope, then the 12 bits are of little use to me.
But I experienced this difference with the 2000X HD.

[TomKatt]

The signal display on the SDS2000X HD, for example, is not comparable with that on the SDS800X HD, although both displays have the same resolution and a smaller display would normally have an advantage, which is not the case here.

Since the resolution is the same, do you attribute the difference in display quality to be due to size, or does the SDS2000X draw the same signal differently?

[Martin72]

The last.
In the SDS800X HD thread I´ve posted the difference, will search for it tomorrow.

[points2]

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !
12bit vs 8bit = the cosmetic stuff => on the Y-axis.
But what costs much is the X-axis resolution ! <= the bottleneck (cost related) of any scope is the X-axis, not the Y-axis !
 

Thanks for that, I second that but additional to GS/s I think 12Bits are really "nice to have" and nowadays affordable.

hi Markus,
you have a Siglent 2104Xplus... me too !
So, I guess that, like me, & thanks to smart guys from the forum, your 2104X+ has beeen converted to a stunning 2504X+ ("stunning" given the price you paid for the 2104X+...) : correct ?

If correct (you have a 2504X+), why are you looking for a "cheap" alternative to your 2504X+ ?

Back to basic : the price of a scope is related to : BW & sample rate. Only these 2 features... simply because only these 2 matter !  (1)
based on that : a 2104X+ converted in a 2504x+ is still a bargain !

So, given that I have a 2504X+, me too, I was looking for an alternative a few months ago.
But, given (1), I looked for a scope that would go far above the feature of my 2504x+ => to get a duo of scope : the 2504x+ to measure basic stuff / the other to measure way above the limits of the 2504x+

What was "far above" at "fair price" ? the GigaWave sampling scope ! but I bought instead an old Picoscope 9211a (same price & more features... I wanted a Pico for a long time because of display/remote/etc), and it's a gem, like the GigaWave (price tag = 3kEur))

Of course,
I'm talking about these alternatives because I get stuck @ the lower end of the 2504x+ : 1ns & below
If it's not your case, looking for an alternative to your scope is useless
If it's your case : get the GigaWave to backup the 2504x+ & go deeper

if this post is not ok somewhere, please reply to explain where I'm wrong 

[Markus2801A]

hi Markus,
you have a Siglent 2104Xplus... me too !
So, I guess that, like me, & thanks to smart guys from the forum, your 2104X+ has beeen converted to a stunning 2504X+ ("stunning" given the price you paid for the 2104X+...) : correct ?

You're completely right! 

If correct (you have a 2504X+), why are you looking for a "cheap" alternative to your 2504X+ ?

I thought it would be a good idea to keep me up2date also with new interface/gui options etc.

Back to basic : the price of a scope is related to : BW & sample rate. Only these 2 features... simply because only these 2 matter !  (1)
based on that : a 2104X+ converted in a 2504x+ is still a bargain !

Exactly! AFAIK It's the best DSO out there, capable of high BW (with hack) for around €1,250.
But I really would like to have a new DSO with stronger and better FFT capabilities and also state of the art GUI and features.
Maybe I also should take the Magnova DSO´s into closer consideration? They are higher priced, of course, but look very promising.

[Martin72]

Hi,

But I really would like to have a new DSO with stronger and better FFT capabilities and also state of the art GUI and features.

What don't you like about the Siglent GUI?
What could be different, "state of the art"?
The GUI of the touchscreen models is basically the same, whether SDS800X HD or SDS7000A.
The only option would be to switch to a different brand.
And what is meant by "stronger and better FFT capabilities"?
In terms of features, the Siglent FFT function is one of the best.
You can control the speed yourself by selecting the memory points.
If you have watched a normal spectrum analyzer at work as it "cycles" through the frequencies, you know that "slow" is relative.

Maybe I also should take the Magnova DSO´s into closer consideration?

Magnova is (still) an unknown component, but there is a lot to suggest that Scope is taking a different approach to the rest of the scene.

[Markus2801A]

What don't you like about the Siglent GUI?
What could be different, "state of the art"?
The GUI of the touchscreen models is basically the same, whether SDS800X HD or SDS7000A.
The only option would be to switch to a different brand.

The Siglent GUI is very good indeed, I was hoping for some updates in the newer models in terms of usability etc.
You know how "iOS" evolves with each version.

So I think Rigol has changed it`s user interface in the newer models, may have to go with this one as a STEP UP from DS1045Z as FUNGUS stated here in the very first answer I got.

And what is meant by "stronger and better FFT capabilities"?
In terms of features, the Siglent FFT function is one of the best.
You can control the speed yourself by selecting the memory points.
...

Regarding the FFT: I am always looking for new improvements in its implementation.
I think MAGNOVA is actually taking a different and innovative approach.

Magnova is (still) an unknown component, but there is a lot to suggest that Scope is taking a different approach to the rest of the scene.

That's exactly what appeals to me! I could imagine that BATRONIX is the only company to have invented and designed the oscilloscope from scratch. Just as they advertise it.
I just need to save up a little more money :-)

[hpw]

Hi,

But I really would like to have a new DSO with stronger and better FFT capabilities and also state of the art GUI and features.

And what is meant by "stronger and better FFT capabilities"?
In terms of features, the Siglent FFT function is one of the best.

SDS2000 HD 2M FFT

SDS3000 HD 4M FFT

SDS7000A   32M FFT

and all with only FFT Window: Rectangular, Blackman, Hann, Hamming, Flattop, as we need for sure any better performing FFT Windows  like BH7...

Hp
 

[2N3055]

Hi,

But I really would like to have a new DSO with stronger and better FFT capabilities and also state of the art GUI and features.

And what is meant by "stronger and better FFT capabilities"?
In terms of features, the Siglent FFT function is one of the best.

SDS2000 HD 2M FFT

SDS3000 HD 4M FFT

SDS7000A   32M FFT

and all with only FFT Window: Rectangular, Blackman, Hann, Hamming, Flattop, as we need for sure any better performing FFT Windows  like BH7...

Hp

Which scopes are better?
What are you comparing to? Imaginary dream device?

[tautech]

What don't you like about the Siglent GUI?
What could be different, "state of the art"?
The GUI of the touchscreen models is basically the same, whether SDS800X HD or SDS7000A.
The only option would be to switch to a different brand.

The Siglent GUI is very good indeed, I was hoping for some updates in the newer models in terms of usability etc.
You know how "iOS" evolves with each version.

And 5 Siglent FW updates were released a few days ago.
Each offered an improvement and/or new features...... just part of ongoing product development.

[hpw]

Hi,

But I really would like to have a new DSO with stronger and better FFT capabilities and also state of the art GUI and features.

And what is meant by "stronger and better FFT capabilities"?
In terms of features, the Siglent FFT function is one of the best.

SDS2000 HD 2M FFT

SDS3000 HD 4M FFT

SDS7000A   32M FFT

and all with only FFT Window: Rectangular, Blackman, Hann, Hamming, Flattop, as we need for sure any better performing FFT Windows  like BH7...

Hp

Which scopes are better?
What are you comparing to? Imaginary dream device?

Well, well

may look attached, as you may than understand ... the gear required to go any better on PN & AN measurements.

Picture note: Spectrum from equal samples. Used coherent measurement of ADC & DAC 24/32 bit. Signal at fs/4 where SR is about 40kHz. ENF means enhanced noise floor.

As this forum has a broad user experiences, as from turtles to professionals.

So what is the best, as maximal budget with acceptable performance?

Any professional would do any sheet with list of MUST HAVE and each weighted and also nice to have.

I currently own a WM8600 & SDA6020 LeCroy with nice RIS (200Gs) and Jitter analysis. But those are only 8 bit.
In addition for fast signal checks the SDS2000X Plus as 10bit acquisition is nice.

This means a LeCroy WavePro HD would be the next best as for me Siglent is for away getting into this figures while simple no
performance specification given.

Even the LeCroy WavePro HD now 12 bit but ENOB still not the yellow on the egg. So for may 12 hours of measurement using this xxk$ gear,
no ROI is given so it would be any better to rent it or waiting again 20 years until they get cheap .

At the end of the day, using my own weighting list (performance & service & support & long term behavior with Asia), many affordable fails soon out of the list as no value.

Hp

[points2]

hi markus2801A,

hi Markus,
you have a Siglent 2104Xplus... me too !
So, I guess that, like me, & thanks to smart guys from the forum, your 2104X+ has beeen converted to a stunning 2504X+ ("stunning" given the price you paid for the 2104X+...) : correct ?

You're completely right! 

thanks to say to me that I'm right, but like most of engineer... I think that I missed a big shity piece of thing somewhere 
back to subject :
why are you looking for a DSO that has "top-notch" spectrum analyzer features ?
...
On my side : I have a 2104X+ converted to 2504X+ ...
and I can't replace it because vs GSample & BWith, it is a bargain !

then, how to upgrade my scope ?
I found the answer "easily" => get the device that does the job you want !
As simple as that !

To sumup :
- you have a DSO (not cheap !) => cool
- you get a TinySA Ultra (>100Eur) => you have a nice SA
- you get a TinyPFA (70Eur) => you have a wonderfull device ... if it fits your needs...
- you get a LiteVNA (>100Eur) => you have a top-notch VNA

so, if you don't have those last 3 into the list => get them b4 swaping to another DSO (my2 cents)

time related display (oscope), can be usefull
but frequency related display can be more usefull
my 2 cents !...
hope it helps / or feel free to correct if I'm wrong / no brainer