12Bit Scope additional/replacement to Siglent 2104X Plus & Rigol DS1054Z

[Markus2801A]

Dear Friends,

As stated in the topic, I actually use the Siglent 2104X Plus and Rigol DS1054Z (which I bought before the Siglent) oscilloscopes, so im quite familiar with them.
Now I`m thinking of getting into the new 12bit era of affordable scopes.
After reading so many pages here, I kindly ask you again to assist me in getting a 12bit scope that would be a good addition and/or replacement for my Rigol or even Siglent scope.

I am considering Siglent SDS800X HD series (maybe 1000X HD) and Rigol DHO800 / DHO900 / DHO1000 series?

As far as I have found out, there are some limitations in hardware (memory depth) regarding software update (hack) which cannot be upgraded.

Regarding price and performance, quality and stability also hackability ;-) which one should I choose?

Thanks in advance ;-)
Best regards,
Markus from Lower Austria 

[Fungus]

(post was fixed ...)

Regarding the Rigol models: I don't think the DHO900 is good value for money, and I'm not sure if the DHO1000 is being phased out.

Memory depth is completely hackable. You can get all DHO900 features on a DHO800 except for the extra connector on the front (and some people have even added that).

The Siglent sales force will be along shortly to tell you you'd be completely mad to get a Rigol but I don't think they're 100% right. The Rigol can do a few things the Siglent can't do and nobody's ever answered the question "what scenario would mean the Rigol couldn't get the job done and I'd be forced to buy a Siglent instead".

Both of them are a big step up from the DS1054Z.

The questions are: What will you mostly use it for?

nb. The Rigol is Android based so it's way more hackable. People are busy modding the UI and even writing their own apps for it to get (eg.) fullscreen modes and fancier FFTs. See other threads.

[Aldo22]

Both of them are a big step up from the two 'scopes you're familiar with.

The Siglent-SDS2104X Plus he has is quite a scope.
What, apart from the 12bit, would the "big step up" in your opinion?

[Fungus]

What, apart from the 12bit, would the "big step up" in your opinion?

Brain fart, I thought he said SDS1104X...

Yeah, the 2000 series is a different beast. Post fixed...

[Martin72]

Because he has the SDS2104Xplus, I would say:
In addition to that, just to want the 12bit, DHO800/1000 would be my suggestion.
I wouldn't recommend any of the above as a replacement, neither Rigol nor Siglent.
In order to achieve a significant "improvement" over the SDS2000Xplus, you would have to go for at least the 2000X HD.

[Aldo22]

Yeah, the 2000 series is a different beast.

Yes, it even has a 10-bit mode afaics, so I wonder why he wants an additional "affordable scope" at all, since this is generally (apart from the 12-bit) rather a step backwards.

[KungFuJosh]

I agree. I'd say sell both scopes and buy the SDS2000X HD with the bundle while it's still on sale...if you really need 12bit. I have the plus and I'm in no rush for another scope.

[Markus2801A]

Thank you all for your suggestions, opinions and fast replies to my topic.

I thought those new Oscilloscopes would be an "update" also regarding user interface and FFT-Capabilities.
I also want to be up to date with the new capabilities of the oscilloscopes. 

In order to achieve a significant "improvement" over the SDS2000Xplus, you would have to go for at least the 2000X HD.

Won't the Siglent 2000X HD soon be replaced by a new one? After all, it's been on the market for a while now.

Kind regards
Markus

[Martin72]

Won't the Siglent 2000X HD soon be replaced by a new one?

I don't know through what.
The SDS3000X HD is a different class, not the successor.

After all, it's been on the market for a while now.

This month marks 2 years, which is not that long ago.

I thought those new Oscilloscopes would be an "update" also regarding user interface and FFT-Capabilities.

Rather not.
The FFT capacities are the same, even less for the Rigol models.
The only thing the SDS2000Xplus lacks in comparison are the aforementioned 12-bit, then 4 math channels, as well as digital filters (SDS800X HD, SDS1000X HD, Rigol DHO800/900/1000).
That's the "stupid" thing for SDS2000Xplus owners, there is not "more" for the same money at the moment, because the Plus model is not that old yet.

[TomKatt]

I imagine that there are many cases where a good 8 bit scope continues to be a useful tool.  As much as I like having the newest thing, I think I’d want a specific need for finer detail before spending money just to have it.  The SDS2000X seems like a very capable scope - it might be interesting to hold out to see what the next releases bring…

[Fungus]

Yeah, the 2000 series is a different beast.

Yes, it even has a 10-bit mode afaics, so I wonder why he wants an additional "affordable scope" at all, since this is generally (apart from the 12-bit) rather a step backwards.

He says he "uses" them, not that he owns them.

[TomKatt]

Ah… it’s always the small details that matter lol

[KungFuJosh]

I actually use the Siglent 2104X Plus and Rigol DS1054Z (which I bought before the Siglent) oscilloscopes, so im quite familiar with them.

He says he "uses" them, not that he owns them.

Read the rest of the sentence he wrote. 😉

[Fungus]

He says he "uses" them, not that he owns them.

Read the rest of the sentence he wrote. 😉

Maybe something is lost in translation. Clarification needed...

[KungFuJosh]

He says he "uses" them, not that he owns them.

Read the rest of the sentence he wrote. 😉

Maybe something is lost in translation. Clarification needed...

"which I bought before the Siglent" - he bought the Rigol, then he bought the Siglent. There ya go. 😉

[Fungus]

"which I bought before the Siglent" - he bought the Rigol, then he bought the Siglent. There ya go. 😉

Doesn't mean he bought them for himself to use at home.

[Geoff-AU]

Not sure what the benefit of all this conjecture over semantics is..

2000X Plus series is very capable for 8-bit, and it has 10-bit mode as well.

2000X HD is a great scope.  It's an older, more expensive architecture compared to the 800HD/1000HD.. but that architecture seems to provide slightly better performance in some areas (screen update rate, hardware ERES etc) that may or may not be important to the individual.  But the 2000X HD also suffers from infrequent firmware updates, and its connection for logic analyser is the "old" style which may be a concern for future-proofing.

It all comes down to where your priorities live on the performance vs cost scale.  If I had 12-bit yearnings but without 12-bit pockets I would head straight for the 800X HD    But it might not be such a leap over the 2000X Plus with 10-bit mode (depending on the bandwidth you're interested in).

[tautech]

Thank you all for your suggestions, opinions and fast replies to my topic.

I thought those new Oscilloscopes would be an "update" also regarding user interface and FFT-Capabilities.
I also want to be up to date with the new capabilities of the oscilloscopes. 

In order to achieve a significant "improvement" over the SDS2000Xplus, you would have to go for at least the 2000X HD.

Won't the Siglent 2000X HD soon be replaced by a new one? After all, it's been on the market for a while now.

Yes in dark clothes and now available.

TBH there is little to be gained with SDS1000X HD vs SDS2000X Plus.
One is a 200 MHz design and the Plus is 500 MHz.

Plus has more features apart from the 12bit of 1000X HD and some might find HD encoders nicer to use.

2000X Plus series is very capable for 8-bit, and it has 10-bit mode as well.

Limited to 100 MHz BW, all models.

2000X HD is a great scope.  It's an older, more expensive architecture compared to the 800HD/1000HD.. but that architecture seems to provide slightly better performance in some areas (screen update rate, hardware ERES etc) that may or may not be important to the individual.

The HW/architecture is not so different as you might think.
Initially 2000X HD was a pricer DSO but now with many models in the Siglent range using the same 12bit ADC's pricing has been pulled back to reflect the better buying power from sourcing 12bit ADC's in greater volumes.

But the 2000X HD also suffers from infrequent firmware updates, and its connection for logic analyser is the "old" style which may be a concern for future-proofing.

Old, as in used in all the higher priced Siglent models....and for other brands also ?
SPL2016 is a top class LA probe configuration greatly surpassing SLA1016 used in 800/1000X HD models, IMHO.

It all comes down to where your priorities live on the performance vs cost scale.  If I had 12-bit yearnings but without 12-bit pockets I would head straight for the 800X HD 

100% if you only needed 12bit performance

But it might not be such a leap over the 2000X Plus with 10-bit mode (depending on the bandwidth you're interested in).

This too and the 2kX Plus will always be more scope than its 800/1k siblings.


Yet if Markus2801A needs to have a 12bit for some work the 802X HD for $340 would be a good starting point.

[Markus2801A]

Yet if Markus2801A needs to have a 12bit for some work the 802X HD for $340 would be a good starting point.

So maybe the SDS800 Series as replacement for the RigolDS1054Z?
Which Model (maybe SDS814X HD) should I get regarding full „upgradeability“ (hack) as I‘ve read the memory is not upgradable via software hack.
Just to get it right: Rigol DHO800 & 900 Series utilize the same Hardware. So the cheapest Model can be unlocked to highest price Model?

[TomKatt]

So maybe the SDS800 Series as replacement for the RigolDS1054Z?
Which Model (maybe SDS814X HD) should I get regarding full „upgradeability“ (hack) as I‘ve read the memory is not upgradable via software hack.
Just to get it right: Rigol DHO800 & 900 Series utilize the same Hardware. So the cheapest Model can be unlocked to highest price Model?

Not sure what you read, but the SDS800X HD series is completely upgradable simply by entering license codes generated by a Python scrip available in the forums here.   It took me about 5 minutes to 'upgrade' my 70 MHz 50 Mpt SDS804X HD into a 200 MHz 100 Mpt SDS824X HD ;-)   So simple I hesitate to even call it a 'hack'.

Edit - I have no affiliation with this website, but rather than set up a Python compiler on my pc I just copied the code from the forums and ran it on the free online compiler at https://www.programiz.com/python-programming/online-compiler/    Note you need to edit the code to include your specific machine ID and serial number,

[Fungus]

So maybe the SDS800 Series as replacement for the RigolDS1054Z?

Yes, the RigolDS1054Z feels like an antique compared to the new "12-bits".

The upgrade is much more than just the number of bits in the ADC.

Just to get it right: Rigol DHO800 & 900 Series utilize the same Hardware. So the cheapest Model can be unlocked to highest price Model?

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack.

(the model is stored in a file so just substitute the file and restart the 'scope app).

nb. You can't get DHO924S - the signal generator needs extra internal hardware.

[Martin72]

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack

I wouldn't do that.
There is no need, with the 900 series you get 2 more decoders, but he already has them anyway with his SDS2000Xplus.
Over 200Mhz bandwidth can cause problems if you don't remember that the sample rate on the Rigol is drastically reduced when using multiple channels.
If the seeker had no scope or only the DS1054Z, I would clearly recommend the SDS800X HD, as I think it is the best scope on the market for the price, overall.
But he still has the SDS2000Xplus, so I would make a different decision and get a DHO800.
A DHO804 and "gently" upgrade it to the 814.
If it's all about the low-noise 12-bit, then the Rigol.
For a single reason, which I won't mention, you'll have to come up with it yourself.
If you know my review of the DHO800 and read my posts in the SDS800 thread, especially the last ones before I sold it, then you'll figure it out.
And I still think that if he wants to experience a general "over-all" improvement, then he should sell his two scopes and get an SDS2000X HD.
But that's not up for debate.

[2N3055]

Yet if Markus2801A needs to have a 12bit for some work the 802X HD for $340 would be a good starting point.

So maybe the SDS800 Series as replacement for the RigolDS1054Z?
Which Model (maybe SDS814X HD) should I get regarding full „upgradeability“ (hack) as I‘ve read the memory is not upgradable via software hack.
Just to get it right: Rigol DHO800 & 900 Series utilize the same Hardware. So the cheapest Model can be unlocked to highest price Model?

Ignore anybody that tells you that you can "upgrade" DHO800 to DHO900. They are NOT same hardware, and DHO900 is horrible and failed design. Either get DHO800 and stick with it or get something else.

[Fungus]

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack

I wouldn't do that. There is no need,
A DHO804 and "gently" upgrade it to the 814.

Yes, I was just keeping the answer simple ("yes!") but the 814 with memory upgrade is the sanest variation of these 'scopes.

If you ever need the extra serial decoders (the only advantage the DHO900 has) you can switch to a DHO900 while you do that job then switch back.

[Fungus]

Ignore anybody that tells you that you can "upgrade" DHO800 to DHO900. They are NOT same hardware,

You can enable all DHO900 software options and all DHO900 bandwidth/memory options.