12Bit Scope additional/replacement to Siglent 2104X Plus & Rigol DS1054Z

[points2]

Hi,
about "what 12b scope to replace by 8bit scope ?"
(maybe I'm wrong, please correct me if so)

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !

12bit vs 8bit = the cosmetic stuff => on the Y-axis.
But what costs much is the X-axis resolution ! <= the bottleneck (cost related) of any scope is the X-axis, not the Y-axis !
 

[Markus2801A]

It took me about 5 minutes to 'upgrade' my 70 MHz 50 Mpt SDS804X HD into a 200 MHz 100 Mpt SDS824X HD ;-)   So simple I hesitate to even call it a 'hack'.

Thanks for the clarification!  It will save me money 

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack.
(the model is stored in a file so just substitute the file and restart the 'scope app).

 Okay, but than there are statements like this:

Ignore anybody that tells you that you can "upgrade" DHO800 to DHO900. They are NOT same hardware,

You can enable all DHO900 software options and all DHO900 bandwidth/memory options.

Yes, a DHO804 can become a DHO924 via a simple hack

I wouldn't do that. There is no need,
A DHO804 and "gently" upgrade it to the 814.

Yes, I was just keeping the answer simple ("yes!") but the 814 with memory upgrade is the sanest variation of these 'scopes.

Now I'm confused, are DHO800 fully upgradeable to DHO900 Series or do the DHO900 Series have different Hardware, so an upgrade is not possible via software hack?
Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !

12bit vs 8bit = the cosmetic stuff => on the Y-axis.
But what costs much is the X-axis resolution ! <= the bottleneck (cost related) of any scope is the X-axis, not the Y-axis !
 

Thanks for that, I second that but additional to GS/s I think 12Bits are really "nice to have" and nowadays affordable.

Just to bring a this Idea in in:

And I still think that if he wants to experience a general "over-all" improvement, then he should sell his two scopes and get an SDS2000X HD.

Somewhere here on eevblog I read "SDS2000X HD backdoor closed", so it's not possible to upgrade bandwidth like I was able to do on my SDS2104X?

[Geoff-AU]

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !

Give the man a fast comparator and he's happy 

[2N3055]

Now I'm confused, are DHO800 fully upgradeable to DHO900 Series or do the DHO900 Series have different Hardware, so an upgrade is not possible via software hack?
Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

Let me repeat.

Ignore anybody that tells you that you can "upgrade" DHO800 to DHO900. They are NOT same hardware, and DHO900 is horrible and failed design. Either get DHO800 and stick with it or get something else.

DHO800 has maximum sample rate of 1.25 GS/s that drops to quarter of that when using 4 ch. So you are sampling at 312.5 MS/s. Meaning no more than 150 MHz can be sampled.
Which DHO814 has about 150-170 MHz BW and that combination seems to work fine.

SDS800xHD from Siglent samples at 2GS->1GS->500MS/s as you go so that one can support up to 240 MHz without problems with all 4 Ch on.

If you want simple, cheapest 12 bit scope, DHO814 will give you low noise and basic functions. I don't know what is the state of bugs at this moment, I gave up on tracking that.
DHO800 also has HDMI monitor output if that might be important to you (for school presentations, for instance).

SD800xHD has very good Web interface OTOH, that can be used for presentations too.
If you want scope that will have quite advanced analysis and math capabilities, mapping of network drives for easier data sharing, good BODE plotting (you'll need additional AWG for that, but any number of Siglent AWG work for this) etc, than SDS8000xHD is the choice.
Since you already have SDS2000X+, 800xHD drives pretty much the same..

[tautech]

Somewhere here on eevblog I read "SDS2000X HD backdoor closed", so it's not possible to upgrade bandwidth like I was able to do on my SDS2104X?

No.
Hack is not public yet.

For now if you must have 12bit SDS800X HD or 1000X HD and upgrade BW capability are your best bets.

[Fungus]

Now I'm confused, are DHO800 fully upgradeable to DHO900 Series

Yes.

do the DHO900 Series have different Hardware

Only the extra connector on the front is different.

Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

Because the measured bandwidths of these 'scopes are MUCH higher than what the stickers say on the front.

The "DHO814" configuration has 200MHz real bandwidth and that's the best choice for this hardware.

[TomKatt]

Also I don`t get it why you only should gently upgrade to DHO814?

I think what people here are trying to tell you is that because the DHO800 AND DHO900 series have 1.25 Gb/s sampling, as you use more channels that sampling rate drops to 312.5 Mb/s at 4 channels, which is not sufficient for accurate 200 MHz BW work.  The DHO814 is rated for 100 MHz so is in the 'safe zone' for accurate sampling using 4 channels.  Rigol seems to be playing a little game advertising BW because both DHO800 and DHO900 can only accurately sample 200MHz with 2 channels due to 1.25 Gb/s sampling shared across all channels.  So if you upgrade DHO804 to DHO900 series and use 4 channels for 200 MHz BW work you may not realize the results are questionable - safer to limit BW to what sampling is capable of.

But nothing stops you from upgrading DHO800 to DHO900 for other features if you keep that in mind.  The problem is you can easily forget.

Siglent has 2 Gb/s sampling, so can more safely use 4 channels for 200 MHz BW work.  Of course, not everyone need such high BW to begin with.

[Markus2801A]

Too bad the Siglent SDS804X HD seems to have a long delivery time and the SDS814X HD costs almost +100€ more.

So I will have to wait and have more time to rethink my whole purchase decision.
Are there any other suitable models out there that I may have overlooked?

Kind regards,
Markus 

[Martin72]

Too bad the Siglent SDS804X HD seems to have a long delivery time and the SDS814X HD costs almost +100€ more.

You would recoup this with the sale of your DS1054Z...

[TomKatt]

Too bad the Siglent SDS804X HD seems to have a long delivery time and the SDS814X HD costs almost +100€ more.

It’s worth 100 Euros if you can wait - the SDS804X can be upgraded to the 200 MHz SDS824X version for free…. That’s nearly a 25% savings compared to the SDS814X.

[Martin72]

Are there any other suitable models out there that I may have overlooked?

Certainly not when it comes to affordable "real" 12bit (i.e. without restrictions).
At the moment, the 12-bit is really hyped.
In this hype, it's easy to overlook the pitfalls of higher resolution, especially when it has to be cheap.
The signal display on the SDS2000X HD, for example, is not comparable with that on the SDS800X HD, although both displays have the same resolution and a smaller display would normally have an advantage, which is not the case here.
Also, during the time I had the SDS800X HD in the house, I could not find a clear test situation where it clearly stands out from a low-noise 8-bit scope like the SDS1104X-E in terms of signal presentation.
And that is the point.
What do you expect from the higher ADC resolution, but what the brochures of all manufacturers always emphasize?
A clearer representation of the waveforms.
If I have the same display on the screen as on my old 8-bit scope, then the 12 bits are of little use to me.
But I experienced this difference with the 2000X HD.

[TomKatt]

The signal display on the SDS2000X HD, for example, is not comparable with that on the SDS800X HD, although both displays have the same resolution and a smaller display would normally have an advantage, which is not the case here.

Since the resolution is the same, do you attribute the difference in display quality to be due to size, or does the SDS2000X draw the same signal differently?

[Martin72]

The last.
In the SDS800X HD thread I´ve posted the difference, will search for it tomorrow.

[points2]

my answer is : 12bit vs 8bit, no one cares about that !
what matters is "GS/s" !
12bit vs 8bit = the cosmetic stuff => on the Y-axis.
But what costs much is the X-axis resolution ! <= the bottleneck (cost related) of any scope is the X-axis, not the Y-axis !
 

Thanks for that, I second that but additional to GS/s I think 12Bits are really "nice to have" and nowadays affordable.

hi Markus,
you have a Siglent 2104Xplus... me too !
So, I guess that, like me, & thanks to smart guys from the forum, your 2104X+ has beeen converted to a stunning 2504X+ ("stunning" given the price you paid for the 2104X+...) : correct ?

If correct (you have a 2504X+), why are you looking for a "cheap" alternative to your 2504X+ ?

Back to basic : the price of a scope is related to : BW & sample rate. Only these 2 features... simply because only these 2 matter !  (1)
based on that : a 2104X+ converted in a 2504x+ is still a bargain !

So, given that I have a 2504X+, me too, I was looking for an alternative a few months ago.
But, given (1), I looked for a scope that would go far above the feature of my 2504x+ => to get a duo of scope : the 2504x+ to measure basic stuff / the other to measure way above the limits of the 2504x+

What was "far above" at "fair price" ? the GigaWave sampling scope ! but I bought instead an old Picoscope 9211a (same price & more features... I wanted a Pico for a long time because of display/remote/etc), and it's a gem, like the GigaWave (price tag = 3kEur))

Of course,
I'm talking about these alternatives because I get stuck @ the lower end of the 2504x+ : 1ns & below
If it's not your case, looking for an alternative to your scope is useless
If it's your case : get the GigaWave to backup the 2504x+ & go deeper

if this post is not ok somewhere, please reply to explain where I'm wrong