NanoVNA Custom Software

[joeqsmith]

I don't have Windows 11 installed on a PC to try it.   

https://forums.ni.com/t5/NI-Package-Manager-NIPM/Does-LabVIEW-software-support-on-windows-11/td-p/4177747

Windows 11 was announced long ago; and there have been many Windows Insider releases to allow companies like NI to port their products such that they would be fully functional by the time Windows 11 started deployment to user systems.

Telling me that NI is "targeting support in 2022 H2" is basically telling me that they failed to support their user base. The majority of software companies worked hard to get Windows 11 support available contemporaneously with the release of Windows 11. Why didn't NI?

Until I actually try it, I wouldn't trust what I read on the internet.   

Other softwares works.

Windows ships with a lot of software.  When Notepad fails to run with a new release, they have a big problem. 

***
Talking with a friend who has ran some basic tests with the 64-bit LabView on 11 and no problems.   I would imagine he's done a decent shakedown.   

[joeqsmith]

I would start by installing the drivers and making sure your PC recognized the VNA.  I use the standard drivers with Windows 10.  If 11 doesn't find it, you need to locate proper drivers.  If that works, then you need to install the latest the National Instruments 2021 SP1 64-bit runtime and NIVISA.   Then you will need the 64-bit sound dll.  Don't expect anything to work if you are mixing 32-bits and 64.  If you still can't get it to work, then I suggest going to one of the open source applications.  Actually, you may want to just start there.

[FPSychotic]

I don't have Windows 11 installed on a PC to try it.   

https://forums.ni.com/t5/NI-Package-Manager-NIPM/Does-LabVIEW-software-support-on-windows-11/td-p/4177747

Windows 11 was announced long ago; and there have been many Windows Insider releases to allow companies like NI to port their products such that they would be fully functional by the time Windows 11 started deployment to user systems.

Telling me that NI is "targeting support in 2022 H2" is basically telling me that they failed to support their user base. The majority of software companies worked hard to get Windows 11 support available contemporaneously with the release of Windows 11. Why didn't NI?

Until I actually try it, I wouldn't trust what I read on the internet.   

Other softwares works.

Windows ships with a lot of software.  When Notepad fails to run with a new release, they have a big problem. 

***
Talking with a friend who has ran some basic tests with the 64-bit LabView on 11 and no problems.   I would imagine he's done a decent shakedown.

Just thank you by the extensive answer, I will try everything today.
Just congrats you by your knowledge and thank you by share it.
I hope make it work!!

[FPSychotic]

ohh, maybe my problem is NVISIA, as there is a very recent version, there is 20 ,21, 21.5 which of them should I install and that sound file where should be installed? I couldn't see any error of sound. Should I install the firmware included in github?.

[joeqsmith]

ohh, maybe my problem is NVISIA, as there is a very recent version, there is 20 ,21, 21.5 which of them should I install and that sound file where should be installed? I couldn't see any error of sound. Should I install the firmware included in github?.

It could be.  Without you taking time to detail what you are doing, I can only guess.   How many times I have brought up that I do not have a crystal ball.     

The last person I attempted to help was suggesting that my software was throwing up bad data.  They took the time to create a video showing all the steps they were taking.   It was immediately obvious what was wrong.  They did not understand the metric system and were entering numbers like 100mHz which is certainly valid.   Screen shot can also be helpful.  One person was suggesting that the sweep would not show any data.   It turned out they had modified the calibration standards coefficients and created a divide by zero.  Very easy to spot with a screen shot.   

Like many, your stuck on the basic install.  As I already mentioned,  I would have no way of knowing if your PC sees the VNA or not.  It has nothing to do with my software.  If that doesn't work, there is no point in installing any of my or NI's software.    Take the time to document exactly what you have done or there is little I can do to help.

Also, keep in mind that I have abandoned the 64-bit software due to NI's extortion business practice.  I have no way to address any problems you may find with it.  IMO, you are wasting your time with it but it's there for those wanting to try it out.   

[FPSychotic]

Hi, I just want to confirm that your software is working and is wonderful
It is working in Windows 11,  with the NI stuff you said, and no issue with the sound dll file.
Thanks a lot by your time. I just reinstalled and worked, no further intervention, maybe ir was a faulty LiteNVA , I made it work with a second unit with same firmware version.
Thanks take this effort, and use you unquestionable talent and knowledge to help help others

[joeqsmith]

That is good to know as you are the only person I know of that has tried to run it on 11.   My friend flipper's Lite was supplied with a defective USB cable and we ran into that snag with the design not considering the full range of voltage available on the port.  Outside of that, I've not had any real problems with the hardware.  It's become my favorite of the low cost VNAs.  If they ever improve the lower frequency performance, I would certainly order up a new one.   

Take care and enjoy your new VNA. 

[joeqsmith]

It's been several weeks since I last made any changes to the software and consider it stable.   I have uploaded revision 3.06 32-bit for the LiteVNA and V2Plus4. 

I also updated some of the photos in the README and have included ALW's where he is attempting to measure his heart rate.  Also some data from the 2-axis rotor is shown. 

[FPSychotic]

Hi, @joeqsmith just let you know in case someone ask you, I could install Solver32 LiteVNA that you recently updated in Windows11, keeping the Solver64 Setup.
I could install the old NI and VISA runtimes without conflict.
It is working now I need learn a lot of RF and your software, I just got the stuff required and got set it up, from now will be everything learn, I honestly think your software and Satsagen (6 Ghz SA,TSA,Sig.gen. for ADI Adalm Pluto SDR) will be the most useful tool I have.
I just seen the WIKI with the 3D radiance antenna plots and I almost fall from my chair.

[joeqsmith]

If you find the performance of the 32-bit acceptable, you may want to consider removing the 64-bit just to save some space.   Any future updates would be with the 32-bit for the LiteVNA and V2+4.   

[FPSychotic]

I think it just run fine. I only need learn RF and use it! Thanks!

[FPSychotic]

Just it know here in liteVNA group.io, someone posted a newer version. It is nice as it can save calibration files in the SD card with names, the pictures can receive a name too.
It looks solved a issue I had that the VNA lose the calibration a lite every day, and in two or three days you need make a calibration.
I guess you need be group member to access to this link

https://groups.io/g/liteVNA/attachment/540/0/LiteVNA64%20v1.3.00.bin

[joeqsmith]

If you find there are problems when using my software with it,  I'm using Dislord's firmware 1.2 Jan 27 2022.   

[joeqsmith]

It seems they released a new version of the LiteVNA which may address some of the USB problems I had demonstrated where the did not consider the full voltage range of the standard.   You can see that in the video below starting about 49 minutes in.   I have no idea if they actually did solve the problem or make any improvements only that they posted about it. 

https://groups.io/g/liteVNA/topic/the_new_litevna64_which/93138117?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,0,93138117,previd%3D1661010961385874549,nextid%3D1649971688251132758&previd=1661010961385874549&nextid=1649971688251132758

[realfran]

Hello, the new NANO VNA 6000 is on sale, can work with your software?

[joeqsmith]

Hello, the new NANO VNA 6000 is on sale, can work with your software? (Attachment Link)

Are you spending the $800+ USD to find out?   
https://www.tindie.com/products/hcxqsgroup/nanorfe-vna6000/

I don't see it being a popular item.  The cost is too high for someone wanting to get started learning about VNAs.  From a professional view, it really doesn't offer anything new.  We have the LiteVNA which my software has been tested with.   I do wonder if they actually improved the Lite's hardware but it's hardly worth spending any cash on it to find out.   

The most recent software I have released was tested with the V2Plus4, V2Plus and LiteVNA 64.  In all cases, this will be highly dependent upon the firmware.   I only found one version of firmware that would work with the V2Plus and not cause the VNA to hang.   Because the developers do not provide products for me to test, I really can't say how the 6000 behaves.   It's really up to the product developers to  ensure they adhere to the protocols they came up with to control them.  If they make any changes, I would expect it to brake.   

[rplabs]

$789 for the A version and $1499 for the B one. Looks like LibreVNA is better positioned at around $600.

Since I upgraded my NanoVNA V2plus4 last week to the latest 20220814 firmware I see that the "Save" feature is not working anymore, after power off/on again it goes to default settings. On top of this "Recall" presets crash the unit and it needs a power cycle.

VNA6000 is using the same firmware... so I guess it is also inheriting these bugs.

[joeqsmith]

$789 for the A version and $1499 for the B one. Looks like LibreVNA is better positioned at around $600.

Note that the thread is about custom software for the NanoVNA, which includes the V2Plus4 and the LiteVNAs.   Because the LibreVNA's direct protocol to control it is not documented, I have no plans to ever support it.   

The cost for OWOs 6GHz versions along with there's just not enough improvements for me to consider it.  If I wanted a higher end VNA, I would purchase a used professional system (which is what I have).   

Since I upgraded my NanoVNA V2plus4 last week to the latest 20220814 firmware I see that the "Save" feature is not working anymore, after power off/on again it goes to default settings. On top of this "Recall" presets crash the unit and it needs a power cycle.

I have no use for any firmware features beyond getting the raw data out of the unit as fast as possible and having control over the hardware.  The only reason I would use one standalone is for a demonstration.  The display, buttons, SD card interfaces for me have no use. 

I have posted many times about the problems I have ran into with firmware and software both.  There's a reason I don't upgrade firmware and write my own software.   

VNA6000 is using the same firmware... so I guess it is also inheriting these bugs.

The V2Plus4 firmware that was supplied with mine was very stable.  The firmware for the V2Plus would hang and require the unit be power cycled.  After having them for about a year, I tried several versions of firmware for the V2Plus before finding one that was stable.   Newer versions would hang as before.  I wouldn't suggest any firmware is good or bad without performing extensive tests on it.   

The firmware for the original NanoVNA was so poor and was being updated so often I wrote a regression test to help me sort though the mess.  The downside to open source, you have people that maybe shouldn't be coding working on it.  The version I run is very old and has no features.  I could care less as it's stable and throws up some good enough data.   

[joeqsmith]

Using the LiteVNA to run a few tests on 1Gb Ethernet. 

[joeqsmith]

Intel paper:  1000BASE-T/100BASE-TX/10BASE-T Physical Layer Compliance Tests Manual

https://community.intel.com/cipcp26785/attachments/cipcp26785/embedded-core-processors/2456/1/1000BASE_T%20100BASE_TX%2010BASE_T%20Physical%20Layer%20Compliance%20Tests%20Manual.pdf

Section: 1000BASE-T MDI Return Loss
The BALUN uses a Mini-Circuits TC1-1-13M.   The paper shows a start frequency of 1MHz where this transformer is spec'ed for 4.5M - 3G.    Digikey still offers an evaluation board for this transformer (shown in previous picture).   Datasheet may be found here:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mini-circuits/TC1-1-13M/13927704

Attached showing the return loss of all four channels on four different boards.   

With the newer firmware for the LiteVNA supporting harmonic modes in excess of 9GHz,  I attempted to make use of this to look at the trace matching on the PCBs along with looking at a few different cables.    One thing I may add now is a way to save some of the TDR data or at least give you a way to measure the change from a reference.     

[joeqsmith]

It appears CMT recently posted an article about using BALUNs with a VNA.  While the article is more generalized and not specifically about Ethernet, they chose to use the same Mini-circuits part. 

Online Spotlight: Balun Measurements with a Two-Port Vector Network Analyzer
July 14, 2022  Brian Walker, Copper Mountain Technologies, Indianapolis, Ind.

https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/38492-balun-measurements-with-a-two-port-vector-network-analyzer?page=3

[joeqsmith]

Another article from Tektronix (previously Picosecond Pulse Labs) describing their ultra wideband BALUN. 

[joeqsmith]

Added storage to my software's TDR function.  Shown using the LiteVNA to look at the individual wires of a 4' CAT5E cable.   The length looks like it varies about 6.8mm.   There was no averaging and the IFBW was set to 4k.  Sweep range was 100k to 9G.   

Also shown is the transition from the coax to the wires.  This is of course very stable and my adapter isn't going to add a lot of error.  620mm is roughly 2' which is roughly the length of my coax cables.     

For now, rather than having a separate memory button for each location, I just have a single button that increments to the next location.   

***  Note that there was no attempt to calibrate the VNA for this particular test.

*** SNAFU

[joeqsmith]

Datasheet for the ADT2-1T  may be found here:

https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ADT2-1T.pdf

While the TC1_1_13MA was setup as a current BALUN, the ADT2-1T was setup as a voltage BALUN.   Attached showing the return loss of the four pairs on our 1Gb Ethernet after calibration.   

https://blog.minicircuits.com/demystifying-transformers-baluns-and-ununs/

[joeqsmith]

My cable length mismatch setup was flawed.  The software had a bug and the scales were not even close...   These problems have been corrected. 

The following was taken from an Anritsu paper:
https://dl.cdn-anritsu.com/en-us/test-measurement/files/Technical-Notes/White-Paper/11410-00988A.pdf

Skew
Extremely high data rate signals can be created by combining multiple parallel paths at lower rates. For
instance, a 40 Gigabit system can utilize four parallel 10 Gigabit paths. Where this is done, care must be
taken to ensure that the propagation time through the various paths is the same. The difference in
propagation time is called skew; skew between traces of a single differential pair is intra-pair skew and
skew between two or more differential pairs is inter-pair skew. If the connecting medium is coaxial
cable, tight control of mechanical length and dielectric tolerances will produce minimal problems with
skew. However, when differential twisted pairs are the conducting medium, the number of turns per
inch is a critical factor in determining propagation time. Commercial CAT5e/6 cable can have as much
as 10 nanoseconds of skew between the paths in a one hundred foot run. This equates to as much as
ten feet of electrical length within the same cable!

Skew is a time/electrical length measurement and is easily determined using the time domain
capabilities of a VNA. Where both ends of the cable are available (prior to installation), it becomes a
straightforward insertion phase measurement. After installation, reflection phase can be used to
measure differences in propagation time. For this measurement, the far end is shorted, so a high
reflection is presented to the instrument. This makes it easy to derive comparisons of roundtrip time.
Roundtrip time must be divided by two, either offline or within the measuring instrument. All Anritsu
VNAs can provide the one-way or round trip times in time domain reflection mode.

We are only looking at a Gb.   For this test I am using a 7' length of CAT5E cable.

CAT5E_Matching_Setup:   
LiteVNA was set to sweep from 100kHz to 9.3GHz.  601 data points was chosen to allow us to measure the 7' cable + the VNA's interface cable.  VF was set to 0.64.   Once again, no calibration was performed (we are just looking for a ballpark number)

CAT5E_Matching_Open:
Looking at the VNAs test cable with nothing attached.  The cable measures roughly 22" (ruler) or 560mm.   

CAT5E_Matching_7ft_pair1:
Measuring the first pair and saving to location 1 (Green trace).  I zoomed in vertically to show the 50ohm coax and the 100ohm CAT5E cable.   Notice the distance between the two cursors is 2.085 meters or about 6.8 feet.   Roughly the length of my test cable.

CAT5E_Matching_7ft_pair1_4:
Collecting all four pairs.   

CAT5E_Matching_7ft_pair1_4_delta:
Setting the two cursors during the open transition.   It appears we have roughly 42mm of mismatch between pairs.   From the Anritsu paper I am guessing this is not unusual.