Icom IC-7300

[djacobow]

We make a distinction between "firmware" and "Software" See Wikipedia...

No, you make such a distinction, a distinction, which no matter how many bits are spilled in Wikipedia, is conceptually meaningless. There is no intrinsic difference between firmware and "software." Those are words of convenience to describe different ways software is deployed, and they are utterly imprecise, too, as "firmware" is stored in all manner of ways from ROM to floppy and everything in between, and can be updated or not updated in various ways from only-at-the-factory to user-click-here to completely autonomously. There is no hard line between firmware, embedded software, non-embedded software.

Nope; no more than a diode matrix is.

Actually, yup, exactly as much as a diode matrix is.

And if that diode matrix happens to be configured as a ROM that has a program stored in it, is the program magically no longer software because "diodes?"

Right now the term seems to be applied to many types of radios.

Yes, we agree on that.

People call the Elecraft and Flex products SDRs, too. But I can't write software for either of them and load it without violating their warranties, nor can I find a program on the Internet to run on them. Does that mean they're also not SDRs? Perhaps the Flex is more of the "radio" takes place on the PC. But can I run something other than PowerSDR? And so PowerSDR is different from "firmware" in what operative way, exactly? If I put PowerSDR onto a USB stick and then flipped the write protect switch, would it be firmware then?

This whole discussion is an exercise in distinctions without a difference.

On the other hand: A radio signal path defined by changeable mathematics rather than physical components is a real distinction, and it seems to be what most people mean by SDR -- regardless of whether they actually will ever do so, or if the interface for such changes are open to the user.

[AF6LJ]

We make a distinction between "firmware" and "Software" See Wikipedia...

No, you make such a distinction, a distinction, which no matter how many bits are spilled in Wikipedia, is conceptually meaningless. There is no intrinsic difference between firmware and "software." Those are words of convenience to describe different ways software is deployed, and they are utterly imprecise, too, as "firmware" is stored in all manner of ways from ROM to floppy and everything in between, and can be updated or not updated in various ways from only-at-the-factory to user-click-here to completely autonomously. There is no hard line between firmware, embedded software, non-embedded software.

Nope; no more than a diode matrix is.

Actually, yup, exactly as much as a diode matrix is.

And if that diode matrix happens to be configured as a ROM that has a program stored in it, is the program magically no longer software because "diodes?"

Right now the term seems to be applied to many types of radios.

Yes, we agree on that.

People call the Elecraft and Flex products SDRs, too. But I can't write software for either of them and load it without violating their warranties, nor can I find a program on the Internet to run on them. Does that mean they're also not SDRs? Perhaps the Flex is more of the "radio" takes place on the PC. But can I run something other than PowerSDR? And so PowerSDR is different from "firmware" in what operative way, exactly? If I put PowerSDR onto a USB stick and then flipped the write protect switch, would it be firmware then?

This whole discussion is an exercise in distinctions without a difference.

On the other hand: A radio signal path defined by changeable mathematics rather than physical components is a real distinction, and it seems to be what most people mean by SDR -- regardless of whether they actually will ever do so, or if the interface for such changes are open to the user.

It is pointless arguing with you.
Sorry Dude, I was an RF tech for twenty one years.
I know the difference between software and firmware.
Software controlled and software defined radios.
Have a nice day.

[voltz]

To me, software is software.. But the application of it produces new terms.

No matter what the target application is, you still need a person with an IDE, typing code, compiling, linking and generating a target. That process is creating software. However, the application of that software gives it a new name. Firmware being a target that is designed to go into a ROM or Embedded processor and carries out defined procedures (defined by the software author). Application software is more desktop/mobile phone/user interaction stuff.

The line get blurred for example when we talk about operating systems burnt to an embedded chip, Its application code on a firmware type device. Hmm.. I'd personally call that firmware but some would say its an OS and therefor software. Matter of debate i think.

So you could say software and firmware are the same thing, but life becomes complicated if you do and its best to draw a distinction between the two when talking to other engineers. So they  'get it'.

To the original poster; seriously looking at the 7300 here. I do believe this is the future of ham radio, and probably pro radio designs to come. Its a bold start into complete digital domain designs. And no PC required! But i suspect we will always need true inductive filtering along side the FPGA side of things. So RF engineers will still be in demand. (glad to say).

bottom line: I want one,  See Youtube videos starting to appear now. The radios' audio sounds just great

[AF6LJ]

 

[dr.diesel]

I've been holding out for a K4, but it's starting to look like that day might never happen.  The 7300 might just be the right fit for a modern compact rig to fit on the bench.

Wonder if the firmware can be updated via SD-Card, no WindBlows box required?

[voltz]

"Wonder if the firmware can be updated via SD-Card,"
Sorry, no idea at this time. I believe the SD can record QSO's.

" no WindBlows box required?"
For operation do you mean?, no. Its a self contained unit - can go mobile if you want.

[AF6LJ]

Damnit.. The manual is not available online yet...

[dr.diesel]

" no WindBlows box required?"
For operation do you mean?, no. Its a self contained unit - can go mobile if you want.

Not for operation, just for updating firmware.  If you can load via the SD-card, that would make it much easier on non Windows people like myself.

[voltz]

Ah, i see what you mean. Yes, would be easier from SD.

heres the user manual:
http://www.difona.de/pdf_en/icic7300_manual.pdf

And i'm pretty sure i seen a service manual already too.

[AF6LJ]

Ah, i see what you mean. Yes, would be easier from SD.

heres the user manual:
http://www.difona.de/pdf_en/icic7300_manual.pdf

And i'm pretty sure i seen a service manual already too.

If you find a link to the service manual please post it.

[deephaven]

Damnit.. The manual is not available online yet...

Lots of info here http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7300/main.html including a link to the schematics pdf

[voltz]

Just seen this in the SD card menu of manual:
"Displays the Firmware Update mode"

promising.

Not quite the service manual Sue, but here's the schematic.
http://www.hamradio.co.uk/userfiles/file/IC-7300_Schematic_Diagram.pdf

Edit: ah, beat me to it

[dr.diesel]

Confirmed, firmware updating is done via the SD-Card.   

[AF6LJ]

Thanks Guys. 

[dr.diesel]

Dangit, I've made Dayton every year for the past 10, but can't make it this year.  I was going to wait and see if anything new came out, but this is cheap enough I might just order one anyhow.

[borjam]

The distinction between the terms "firmware" and "software" can be somewhat vague.

Some can apply the term "firmware" to software that is used mostly internally, without visible change or interaction with the user. For example, the firmware in a graphics card. In this case, "software" would be used to refer to "programs" you install, but which are not necessarily "fixed".

Accepting this distinction, built in software in an embedded system would be aptly called "firmware". But there is one more twist. Not all that firmware is necessarily a part of software, as some equipment's firmware can include changes to FPGA's configuration, which is equivalent to a hardware change.

So, in embedded systems. Can you choose which software you install in your transceiver? You don't, so it's called firmware. And, as I said, that firmware can both include actual software and FPGA configuration.

However, if you have one of those SDRs that work by running software in your computer, at least in theory you can use different SDR programs with the SDR transceiver, so it's "software". However, the SDR box will probably have firmware as well (the basic part needed for communication with the computer and, again, whatever FPGA configuration it includes).


It's somewhat different if you have one of those oscilloscopes based on Windows and you install, for example, Matlab. That would be called software, not firmware.

[dr.diesel]

I might just order one anyhow.

Ordered last week, currently showing to ship on 4/1.

[zibadun]

 The ICOM remote control protocol can transfer the spectrum image to the PC pixel by pixel (475x160), however this is practically useless for signal processing.  I think the value of this transceiver would sky-rocket if one could tap into the real I/Q stream and somehow make it accessible on the PC.  Hopefully this new radio is hacker friendly

[Theboel]

I have use FT1200 and FTDX3000 one thing I dislike is, I can feel "digital" sound really hope this 7300 has less digital sound

[borjam]

The ICOM remote control protocol can transfer the spectrum image to the PC pixel by pixel (475x160), however this is practically useless for signal processing.  I think the value of this transceiver would sky-rocket if one could tap into the real I/Q stream and somehow make it accessible on the PC.  Hopefully this new radio is hacker friendly

Actually, according to the advanced manual (and the schematic confirms it) you can select wether you want demodulated audio or a 12 KHz IF signal sent to the computer over the USB port (and the ACC connector). However, it's not an I+Q IF. But it should still be useful for signal processing.

[zibadun]

you can select wether you want demodulated audio or a 12 KHz IF signal sent to the computer over the USB port (and the ACC connector). However, it's not an I+Q IF. But it should still be useful for signal processing.

you can't do a much with a 12 khz slice.  may be listen to some DRM, if you can find content.  (last time I checked it was mostly religious broadcasting).    the built in band scope shows up to 1 MHz at 30 FPS but it's not available to tap into with PC SDR programs

[borjam]

you can't do a much with a 12 khz slice.  may be listen to some DRM, if you can find content.  (last time I checked it was mostly religious broadcasting).    the built in band scope shows up to 1 MHz at 30 FPS but it's not available to tap into with PC SDR programs

Well, you can also use your own demodulation programs if you like to play with that. Amateur radio signals on HF are limited to a bandwidth of 5 KHz.

The really intriguing part is how they have done it keeping the costs low. I bet it's undersampling, as it's explained in this document from Analog Devices.

http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/design-handbooks/practical-analog-design-tech-sect5.pdf

(page 9, figure 5.9)


You play with a pass band filter and a sampling frequency lower than the Nyquist value in order to "tune" the A/D converter to one of the windows. As just one of the windows can actually reach the converter thanks to the filters you don't suffer an aliasing problem, you rather exploit the aliasing phenomenon to your advantage.

[GEuser]

We make a distinction between "firmware" and "Software" See Wikipedia...

No, you make such a distinction, a distinction, which no matter how many bits are spilled in Wikipedia, is conceptually meaningless. There is no intrinsic difference between firmware and "software." Those are words of convenience to describe different ways software is deployed, and they are utterly imprecise, too, as "firmware" is stored in all manner of ways from ROM to floppy and everything in between, and can be updated or not updated in various ways from only-at-the-factory to user-click-here to completely autonomously. There is no hard line between firmware, embedded software, non-embedded software.

Nope; no more than a diode matrix is.

Actually, yup, exactly as much as a diode matrix is.

And if that diode matrix happens to be configured as a ROM that has a program stored in it, is the program magically no longer software because "diodes?"

Right now the term seems to be applied to many types of radios.

Yes, we agree on that.

People call the Elecraft and Flex products SDRs, too. But I can't write software for either of them and load it without violating their warranties, nor can I find a program on the Internet to run on them. Does that mean they're also not SDRs? Perhaps the Flex is more of the "radio" takes place on the PC. But can I run something other than PowerSDR? And so PowerSDR is different from "firmware" in what operative way, exactly? If I put PowerSDR onto a USB stick and then flipped the write protect switch, would it be firmware then?

This whole discussion is an exercise in distinctions without a difference.

On the other hand: A radio signal path defined by changeable mathematics rather than physical components is a real distinction, and it seems to be what most people mean by SDR -- regardless of whether they actually will ever do so, or if the interface for such changes are open to the user.

It is pointless arguing with you.
Sorry Dude, I was an RF tech for twenty one years.
I know the difference between software and firmware.
Software controlled and software defined radios.
Have a nice day.

This series should be in the "What Ever Happened To Ham Radio" thread , it's exactly what happened , black box operators claiming because they purchased a licence and also purchased the latest and greatest multi thousand dollar stuff one automatically knows everything , and still happening imo and always will until the Earth blows up .

I'm a Shortwave listener , I hear heaps of stuff and it'd put HF CB'ers to shame if that's possible btw .
ps> this elucidation post is not directed at you Sue btw , I just thought I'd rattle a few sensitive out there as I know they are out there after 30 years of SW Listening .

[zibadun]

You play with a pass band filter and a sampling frequency lower than the Nyquist value in order to "tune" the A/D converter to one of the windows. As just one of the windows can actually reach the converter thanks to the filters you don't suffer an aliasing problem, you rather exploit the aliasing phenomenon to your advantage.

 I do not think that ICOM cuts any corners here.  However undersampling is most likely what they have done with the 70 MHz band, otherwise they'd have to clock ADC at close to 170 MHz  (70x2 + 20%) to receive 70 MHz in the first nyquist zone.   the lower bands, up to 6m, could be covered with a 124 MHz ADC.  The speculation is that they are using LTC2208-14.  The ADC part number is obscured in the schematics and in the service manual, and it's also covered by a permanently mounted heat sink! (may be it can be lifted off with the help of some hot air  )..

The FPGA is a high end Altera chip which can run at 200+ MHz and  would have no issues processing the full speed ADC stream even for the 70 mhz band with no undersampling.

Another possibility is that they are  not using a fixed ADC clock, but vary  it according to the selected band so that it falls nicely into the processing window.  E.g. there is not much reason to run ADC at 124 MHz on the 160m band (except to to gain a few extra DB of dynamic range due to processing gain). 

I look forward for the first ham with a scope and a curious mind to report more on the inner workings of the ADC.  From what I've heard the dealers have received services manual under the condition that they will not "leak" it to the internet.   Otherwise it would a cool thing to browse!

[dr.diesel]

Look what just arrived: