Author Topic: AM detector IC - available ?  (Read 7767 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chris_leyson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1549
  • Country: wales
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2018, 12:28:09 am »
The emitter follower detector example posted by imo, https://plus.google.com/102499654761048990073/posts/cEdxAhKBgYf has a lot of advantages over a diode detector, it's a voltage follower and it has current gain ! It's a good high to low impedance match without any voltage loss.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23096
  • Country: gb
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2018, 08:31:22 am »
Looks close to mine. I must be doing something right for once :)

Worked mine out when I was trying to build a follower and amplifier for the tuned part of a crystal set before the detector to increase sensitivity. Originally used a BC109, no decoupling and a mostly flat 9v radio shack (Tandy) battery :)

Side effect was it de-Q’ed the tank circuit badly. This was before I discovered FETs.
 

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5239
  • Country: bj
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2018, 09:17:27 am »
Anything with a bit of "diode" effect would work for AM :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_detector
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5214
  • Country: nl
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2018, 10:20:41 am »
Anything with a bit of "diode" effect would work for AM :)

Razor blade anyone?
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline AlexReschTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: za
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2018, 02:12:42 pm »
Anything with a bit of "diode" effect would work for AM :)

Razor blade anyone?

Razor blade is news to me but years ago a bicycle shop here in Johannesburg still had lead crystals with a steel spring all packed nicely in cotton and then in a glass tube. 30s or so stock. Bought  a few, never managed to get one working. Seems one needs to search for a particular contact point.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3885
  • Country: de
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2018, 05:33:49 pm »
Anything with a bit of "diode" effect would work for AM :)

Razor blade anyone?

Razor blade is news to me but years ago a bicycle shop here in Johannesburg still had lead crystals with a steel spring all packed nicely in cotton and then in a glass tube. 30s or so stock. Bought  a few, never managed to get one working. Seems one needs to search for a particular contact point.

Google "foxhole radio":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxhole_radio

Basically a regular crystal radio with the crystal being replaced by a razor blade with some oxide on it (either rust or from a flame).
 

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5239
  • Country: bj
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 07:13:31 pm by imo »
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline AlexReschTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: za
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2018, 08:50:26 pm »
Cute videos !

By the way, if the signal is strong enough why would any "detection" be needed ?
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3885
  • Country: de
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2018, 09:37:59 pm »
Cute videos !

By the way, if the signal is strong enough why would any "detection" be needed ?

Because humans can't exactly hear RF frequency signals?  :-//


The detector isn't there to amplify the signal. The diode rectifies it (slices off half of the RF waveform) and then a low pass filter removes the rest of the carrier, leaving you with just the audio frequency envelope.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 09:39:31 pm by janoc »
 

Offline AlexReschTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: za
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2018, 10:21:04 pm »
Cute videos !

By the way, if the signal is strong enough why would any "detection" be needed ?

Because humans can't exactly hear RF frequency signals?  :-//


The detector isn't there to amplify the signal. The diode rectifies it (slices off half of the RF waveform) and then a low pass filter removes the rest of the carrier, leaving you with just the audio frequency envelope.

I believe you but I fail to understand why. The audio signal is there anyway and the AM envelope should modulate the flux in the headphone magnets. Interesting - I've never thought about this...
Maybe the reason is the magnets are too slow.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 10:22:42 pm by AlexResch »
 

Offline salbayeng

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 296
  • Country: au
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2018, 10:41:47 pm »
@BD139:
On your simulation , the signal going into the AM port of the modulator should have a DC offset , the waveform displayed is a double-side-band modulated signal, these are fairly unintelligible when demodulated with an envelope detector.

Typical AM waveforms are always less than 100% modulation.

Also I would be interested to see the results of your sim when the collector was disconnected , i.e. just a simple biassed diode. 
In practice you would normally want to use a transistor, so as not to load down the IF transformer, and provide a low impedance output e.g. a volume pot.


« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 10:50:14 pm by salbayeng »
 

Offline salbayeng

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 296
  • Country: au
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2018, 10:48:08 pm »
You can also make a "synchrodyne receiver" similar to what other posters have mentioned, here is an example using a NE612 / SA612
https://www.mikroe.com/ebooks/radio-receivers-from-crystal-set-to-stereo/ne612-synchrodyne-am-receiver.

Just google "synchrodyne receiver" or "NE612" "SA612" "NE602" "SA602"


Also have you checked out the ZN414     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZN414     ?


« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 10:57:34 pm by salbayeng »
 

Offline salbayeng

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 296
  • Country: au
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2018, 11:42:24 pm »
Quote
The audio signal is there anyway and the AM envelope should modulate the flux in the headphone magnets. Interesting - I've never thought about this...
Maybe the reason is the magnets are too slow
Yes , with sufficient amplification you could hear the signal directly, it's not that dissimilar to class-D "inductorless" headphone amplifiers.

In practice it won't work, as the amplified RF signal will get radiated from the speaker/headphone wiring back to the antenna, and cause the radio to oscillate.

Even with a superhet, amplifying the 455kHz signal enough to work the headphones/speaker will cause that signal to get coupled back into the radio too and make it unstable.

In the early days of radio they had "reflex receivers" where a small fraction of the RF was fed back to the input to make it marginally unstable, this greatly increased the RF gain.

Another aspect to consider is automatic gain control ,  incoming radio signals can vary over 1000:1 from different radio stations. You need a detector to be able to control the gain of the IF stage, this needs to make a DC voltage to change the bias on the transistors in the IF stage. Without AGC , the RF signal to the headphone speaker will either be saturated or too small to be audible much of the time.


 
The following users thanked this post: AlexResch

Offline boB

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 341
  • Country: us
    • my work www
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2018, 11:45:07 pm »

Wonder what the I-V curve looks like of these diodes ?

boB
K7IQ
 

Offline PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5214
  • Country: nl
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2018, 08:07:23 am »
@BD139:
the waveform displayed is a double-side-band modulated signal, these are fairly unintelligible when demodulated with an envelope detector.

AM modulation always has 2 sidebands, or do you mean DSBSC (Double Side Band Suppressed Carrier)? It looks like a normal 100% AM modulated signal to me. You would not be able to see if it is double or single sideband in the time domain anyway, you need frequency domain for that (eg spectrum analyzer).

Quote
Typical AM waveforms are always less than 100% modulation.

True.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3885
  • Country: de
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2018, 01:10:47 pm »
I believe you but I fail to understand why. The audio signal is there anyway and the AM envelope should modulate the flux in the headphone magnets. Interesting - I've never thought about this...
Maybe the reason is the magnets are too slow.

Ignoring the inductance of the coils for the moment, if you don't rectify the signal, the AC carrier signal will cause the magnetic flux to change directions too rapidly for the diaphragm to follow (mechanical inertia due to the non-zero mass of the moving parts and all that). That will cause the signal to effectively cancel itself so the diaphragm of the headphone/speaker won't move. You wouldn't hear anything. It is not the magnet that is "slow" but the entire electromechanical system.

The inductance of the coils will also have effect, preventing the AC current from the high frequency carrier from flowing (all that about inductors resisting changes in current ...) - and with no current you don't have any magnetic flux and membrane deflection neither.

If you extract the envelope using a detector, you still have an AC signal but a low frequency one, so impedance of the coils is much lower, you can get meaningful electric current to flow. The diaphragm of the headphones is also able to follow the (slow) changes in the magnetic flux and you hear something.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 01:14:31 pm by janoc »
 

Offline HB9EVI

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 722
  • Country: ch
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2018, 01:47:10 pm »
bd139's signal is clearly no AM, but either DSB/SSB with suppressed carrier, what is not supposed to be decoded with a detector

@salbayeng: did you mean this link here: https://www.mikroe.com/ebooks/radio-receivers-from-crystal-set-to-stereo/ne612-synchrodyne-am-receiver ? your one is not working.

other words for this receiver concept are monodyne or direct conversion receiver. It's mixing the reception frequency down to 0Hz, so directly from RF to AF.It has the advantage, that it can demodulate SSB emissions, but because of its concept it misses image rejection completely.
Modern variants of it are found in SDR receivers as I/Q or Tayloe mixers
 

Offline AlexReschTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: za
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 02:58:25 pm »
I believe you but I fail to understand why. The audio signal is there anyway and the AM envelope should modulate the flux in the headphone magnets. Interesting - I've never thought about this...
Maybe the reason is the magnets are too slow.

Ignoring the inductance of the coils for the moment, if you don't rectify the signal, the AC carrier signal will cause the magnetic flux to change directions too rapidly for the diaphragm to follow (mechanical inertia due to the non-zero mass of the moving parts and all that). That will cause the signal to effectively cancel itself so the diaphragm of the headphone/speaker won't move. You wouldn't hear anything. It is not the magnet that is "slow" but the entire electromechanical system.

The inductance of the coils will also have effect, preventing the AC current from the high frequency carrier from flowing (all that about inductors resisting changes in current ...) - and with no current you don't have any magnetic flux and membrane deflection neither.

If you extract the envelope using a detector, you still have an AC signal but a low frequency one, so impedance of the coils is much lower, you can get meaningful electric current to flow. The diaphragm of the headphones is also able to follow the (slow) changes in the magnetic flux and you hear something.

...works fine in my headphones with 50Khz modulated with 1000Hz.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23096
  • Country: gb
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2018, 03:24:15 pm »
bd139's signal is clearly no AM, but either DSB/SSB with suppressed carrier, what is not supposed to be decoded with a detector

@salbayeng: did you mean this link here: https://www.mikroe.com/ebooks/radio-receivers-from-crystal-set-to-stereo/ne612-synchrodyne-am-receiver ? your one is not working.

other words for this receiver concept are monodyne or direct conversion receiver. It's mixing the reception frequency down to 0Hz, so directly from RF to AF.It has the advantage, that it can demodulate SSB emissions, but because of its concept it misses image rejection completely.
Modern variants of it are found in SDR receivers as I/Q or Tayloe mixers

You are correct. Only because I couldn’t work out how to change the modulation depth in Ltspice. Works in real world :)
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3885
  • Country: de
Re: AM detector IC - available ?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2018, 11:29:22 pm »

...works fine in my headphones with 50Khz modulated with 1000Hz.

50kHz is not exactly RF ... Try a 1MHz or more.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf