Talk to me about JBC irons

[John Coloccia]

My latest design is through hole with copper pour on both sides.  The pads are a little too small and the thermal reliefs are a little too thick.  I'll fix it on the next spin, but I have to get through the 100 I have.  I'm through about 30 of them.  I'm itching for a new toy anyway!

My main iron is older Hakko FP-102.  I'm thinking of picking up a JBC.  Just how much better is the JBC than the Hakko in terms of pumping heat into a board?  I have to solder much of the board at 700 degrees, and lately I've been just leaving it on 750, which is what Kester recommends for their 44 solder anyhow, but I'd love to be able to do all of this at 650, which is where I usually am for all the other work I do.

From what I gather, the JBC will blow away my Hakko in performance, especially on the grounds connected to the copper pour.  I have no experience with the JBC, however.  I'm also looking at Pace.  I would love to give Pace my business because I like to buy from my own country if I can, but as I understand it the JBC trounces the Pace irons as well....and Metcal too.  Are they really THAT much better than everyone else?

[c4757p]

Wait... Kester really recommends 750F (400C) for lead-based solder? I usually do everything at 300C...

[Corporate666]

Haven't used the JBC personally, but I have several Pace stations at work and a couple of Metcals.  Honestly, I prefer the Pace to the Metcals... that's why we have more Pace... got one when a Metcal died and need something in a pinch, and found the Pace's better overall, so started buying those. 

I have some boards with 2oz copper pours and some pretty beefy inductors mounted on them, and the Pace handles it no problem, provided you have the right tip (obviously a fine tip for QFN's ain't gonna cut it).

I've been itching for a new toy as well and looked at the JBC's... lots of people like them, although a few folks have said the Weller WXMP (sp?) system is actually superior. 

There are a few electronics/assembly shows around and I've seen all the different brands there for demo... might be worth checking if any are in your area if thinking of putting up the $$$$.

[nctnico]

Set the soldering station to 330 deg. C and use a bigger tip. Most problems with soldering are related to an under sized tip. Cranking up the temperature only burns the flux faster and cause the solder not to flow nicely.

[John Coloccia]

Wait... Kester really recommends 750F (400C) for lead-based solder? I usually do everything at 300C...

Surprising, huh?  I was surprised myself.  It's in their Knowledge Base in the FAQ.  They recommend 750 (400C for the weirdos out there) for hand soldering with rosin based fluxes, and they specifically call out #44.  I'd much prefer 600 or 650 myself.

Hey cool!!!  I just noticed that Kester updated their site.  Welcome to the year 2000

[John Coloccia]

Set the soldering station to 330 deg. C and use a bigger tip. Most problems with soldering are related to an under sized tip. Cranking up the temperature only burns the flux faster and cause the solder not to flow nicely.

Tip is the biggest I can use...it's the size of the pad.  Any larger, and I'm on the copper pour, and that completely defeats the purpose.  It's like pouring water on it.  The Hakko is just simply not responding quickly enough.  I'm to the point where I can time everything just perfectly to get the joint done properly and get good flow through, but it doesn't seem ideal.  The real problem is I need a larger pad and thinner thermal reliefs.  I haven't really had to design a products from scratch and do everything myself, from concept to artwork to PCB design to assembly, marketing, etc etc.  This is my first shrink wrapped product that is 100% my doing, so I was bound to botch up several things, and these couple of details on the board are wrong.  I didn't follow industry standards...I just winged it, and it's incorrect and difficult to work with now.

[robrenz]

BUY THE JBC!   You will never look back. It really is that good.   It even converted Dave and I didn't think that was going to happen.  Get a "high thermal efficiency super cartridge tip" also.

[Corporate666]

BUY THE JBC!   You will never look back. It really is that good.   It even converted Dave and I didn't think thaw was going to happen.  Get a "high thermal efficiency super cartridge tip" also.

What iron did you step up to the JBC from?

Do you have any experience with the Pace setups or the Metcals?  Or the Weller WXMP?  If so, how would you compare them?

[robrenz]

What iron did you step up to the JBC from?

Weller WTCP

Do you have any experience with the Pace setups or the Metcals?  Or the Weller WXMP?  If so, how would you compare them?

No experience with Pace or Metcal and I am not saying they are not good irons. But you get adjustable temperature with the JBC vs the Metcal and one hand tip change.  If the Pace is still the setscrew tip I don't see how it can compete with a closely coupled heater/sensor/tip of the JBC.  I am not the only JBC fan on the forum

[Corporate666]

No experience with Pace or Metcal and I am not saying they are not good irons. But you get adjustable temperature with the JBC vs the Metcal and one hand tip change.  If the Pace is still the setscrew tip I don't see how it can compete with a closely coupled heater/sensor/tip of the JBC.  I am not the only JBC fan on the forum

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the JBC - seems most love them.  But Pace seems to be a huge company and used a lot in industry, but not many seem to have experience with them.  I like the Pace over the Metcal... people talk about the Metal's ability to maintain heat and inability to overshoot by the laws of physics, but I've never noticed any benefit to that in production.  I do notice the Pace heats up just as quick, or quicker, the tips last infinitely longer (was buying Metcal tips every couple of months - bought 20 Pace tips and not a single one has ever worn out despite daily use for 2-3 years now).  And the Pace tips are $7 compared to $20-30 Metcal tips.

I'm just wondering if I am missing out by not having a JBC   I'd hate to get it and think it's no better than my Pace, almost as much as I'd hate not to have it if it's really substantially better.   

[robrenz]

I am sure Dave has used Pace before and probably many others on the forum. Maybe they will give some input once they see this thread.

[digsys]

I have the Metcal and several Wellers (not the WXMP?) *we got rid of our production Wellers after their quality turned to
sheet. I also have every JBC series, including the HD. Even with the "lowest" model, I solder small pads in 8oz copper,
which is most our products. Power delivery is awesome, and you can keep Temperatures to a minimum. The tip range is
also unmatched.

[Corporate666]

I have the Metcal and several Wellers (not the WXMP?) *we got rid of our production Wellers after their quality turned to
sheet. I also have every JBC series, including the HD. Even with the "lowest" model, I solder small pads in 8oz copper,
which is most our products. Power delivery is awesome, and you can keep Temperatures to a minimum. The tip range is
also unmatched.

Good to know.

So price being no object and you could choose anything you want, you would go with JBC in a heartbeat over the Metcals it seems? 

[robrenz]

Can you get this tip or set it to 260degC on a Metcal?

[Corporate666]

Can you get this tip or set it to 260degC on a Metcal?

I don't have that tip, not sure if you can get it for the Metcal.  The only thing I don't like about the Pace's are that when you are using larger tips (like made for SOIC's or heat staking), the base unit is obviously pumping energy to the tip, and the handpiece gets quite toasty hot, especially at the end... to the point of getting uncomfortably hot if you are - say - reworking 50 boards that you need to pull SOIC's from. 

How hot does the JBC get in that kind of usage?

Sorry for so many questions, I am trying to convince myself I really need one of these JBC's

[robrenz]

I don't do nonstop production but I have never felt the handle get warm at all.  I usually have it set for 330C and it sleeps at 150C.  IMO there is absolutely no sense in bumping the temp up for higher demand joints. The JBC is designed to maintain the temp by pumping up to 130W into the LOW thermal mass tip very quickly as needed.

[digsys]

I don't have that tip, not sure if you can get it for the Metcal.  The only thing I don't like about the Pace's are that when you are using larger tips (like made for SOIC's or heat staking), the base unit is obviously pumping energy to the tip, and the handpiece gets quite toasty hot, especially at the end... to the point of getting uncomfortably hot if you are - say - reworking 50 boards that you need to pull SOIC's from. 
How hot does the JBC get in that kind of usage?
Sorry for so many questions, I am trying to convince myself I really need one of these JBC's  

I only had one engineer that preferred the Metcal, I personally didn't like the "feel", the range of tips and tip swapping.
Once you select your tip and power level and set the temperature to what is safe for the components, it will deliver
that Temp for hours on end. No over-heating at all. The 2 stage sleep / snooze with very fast re-start means the tips
last a LONG time. On our big jobs, we have gone from monthly to 8-12 months !!
I can swap a 0.5mm tip to a 5mm tip on an 8oz PCB in seconds and BOTH at 330C, then straight to a 1oz single sided.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Can you get this tip or set it to 260degC on a Metcal?

Yes - a very similar one - SMTC1162 from memory. They do some even wider ones that use two PSUs. .

[robrenz]

But you can't set it to 260C

[stormbr]

This is not good for you ?

http://www.tequipment.net/HakkoFM203_Combo.html

JBC soldering and desoldering kit (with electrical pump) is more ou less 4.000,00 u$, but this is a dream of consume.

i'll wait the price down.

[nukie]

I have been a Hakko fan for many years, then I bought my dream JBC station. The JBC 130Watts indeed surpass the performance of the common 60watts 936. I even set mine to 80watts limited power. But the price is many fold difference. I can live without the JBC, my Hakko works fine. If you are having issues soldering thick copper pcbs, I suggest JBC high thermal efficiency tips. The regular ones are less macho.

I really like the JBC for its lightweight and thin flexible cable, short tips for better control and only slightly warm handle during summer time. This takes away fatigue, it's really like writing with a heavy ink pen.

I don't fully rely on soldering iron when it comes to heavyweight soldering, I use a preheater. I have a hotplate and a hotair preheat jig. It helps the soldering iron and speed up the process.

Heating large area copper mass means lots of power generated at the tip equals shorter tip life, no thank you.

[Rufus]

I really like the JBC for its lightweight and thin flexible cable

About 10% of the energy supplied by the controller gets dissipated in that skinny cable

[digsys]

  About 10% of the energy supplied by the controller gets dissipated in that skinny cable  

If that was the case, you'd expect the cable to be warm, especially on our 250W units, but they sure don't (just rechecked).
Has anyone done an IR drop to confirm?

[digsys]

JBC soldering and desoldering kit (with electrical pump) is more ou less 4.000,00 u$, but this is a dream of consume.
i'll wait the price down. 

I have a review coming that compares the JBC desoldering station against the Hakko FM204 (sames as FM203) and 474.
MY results are surprising !!!!!

[nukie]

I'll measure the voltage drop on the cable when I get the handle apart.

  About 10% of the energy supplied by the controller gets dissipated in that skinny cable  

If that was the case, you'd expect the cable to be warm, especially on our 250W units, but they sure don't (just rechecked).
Has anyone done an IR drop to confirm?