SmallSMT - Discussion Thread.

[l0wside]

So what? You can still leave it to the customer if he wants to buy directly from China or from Europe.
Neoden seems to be running such a model, you can either purchase it via Alibaba and the like or from Printtec in the Netherlands. I would estimate the effective price difference for the Neoden 4 to be 500...700 EUR, which will then need to cover the distributor´s margin and customer support expenses.

Max

[Smallsmt]

You need more than 700€ to cover the price difference:

Neoden4 including all feeder costs 10000USD you pay import tax 4 to 7 % 400 to 700usd import tax for the reseller.
You need to cover warranty.
So the Netherland distributor need minimum 30% discount from NEODEN for the machine.

If you calculate betwenn 5 and 15 hours support per machine and you need to pay advertising and need to run your office it's impossible to sell for this margin from Germany.

And Neoden need to pay to Printec if they sell directly to Europe!

[ar__systems]

The cover film will move to the ground after it left the winder.

I understand it is supposed to move to the floor, but it is right next to spools. Just a bit of static and it will cling to the incoming tape and get sucked back into the machine

[l0wside]

You need more than 700€ to cover the price difference

My first attempt at an answer got lost somehow.
Anyway: you are right. 30% sounds like a reasonable figure. Considering that you might save some money by bulk shipping and that the distribution and support effort at Yusheng is reduced, the effective cost-up might be more in the range of 20%, i.e. about 1.500 EUR.

This is not completely out of range, even more so if the customers have the choice where to buy.

Max

[Smallsmt]

Visit us on Makerfaire Hannover 27. - 29. May

http://www.smallsmt.biz/exhibitions/

[thommo]

Michael - SmallSMT

* Have you guys, or YS, created a 4 head machine yet ? If so, do you have any pics or video of it that you can show us?

I don't consider that the extra 'working area space' taken by placing the Cameras in the middle of the machine would be an issue as the maximum PCB size on the 2800HP machine is greater than many reflow ovens can handle at any rate.

We are keen on a 4 head machine, but would like to see a video of it actually functioning because we don't want to be the 'first ones' to try it out.

* Please let's see some images and pref a video of 4 heads with cameras in the middle.

* Can you show me a pic of the Strip Feeder and Deep Pocket designs, and how they will retrofit to my 2800HP machine if/when I buy one?

* In the current design, can Head #2 travel to the center of Camera #1? Looking at the video of the 0201 placement closely, it doesn't appear it is able to move that far to the West. Please confirm.

* BTW - are you able to respond to my earlier post regarding the Vapor Phase Reflow Oven too?

Strip feeders, Deep Pocket feeders, etc - are these all 'considered' in the current design and 'contemplated' moving forward so I can 'add' then in?

Yes this are future options for all machines and you can add them later.

Have you changed the design back to only having cameras positioned in the top left corner now? I liked the idea of having them in the middle as we discussed.

No we don't chage the camera position for a 2 Head machine because you loose working area space.
We need to change if we build the 4 head machine.

[ttsthermaltech]

Its kinda funny. I tried to keep Michael's reputation out of this, as he has been helpful in the past, albeit within his limitation of not really being the manufacturer, but only a sales rep. Since he has called me a liar, I guess the gloves are off.

#1, I stand by my statement that Yushengtech provides absolutely no support. The statement made by Michael that all Chinese companies do not provide support is completely false. Good companies build good product, and provide support. I have had great success purchasing products in China. Only one or two companies in the last 10 years stand out as being horrible to deal with. Yushentech was the worst.

#2, It is hard to call me a liar about the OurSMT software problem. I spoke directly with OurSMT rep in China, and they had nothing good to say about Yushengtech. Yushengtech made horrible copies the OurSMT daughter board. The soldering was crap.  Just because a program is dongle protected does not mean it is legitimate. But then again, maybe the just didn't pay their bills to OurSMT. In any case it was made very clear to me that OurSMT would not provide support or free updates (as advertised) to Yushengtech customers. That should speak volumes about Yushengtech. OurSMT made sure to disable any online updates to Yushengtech customers. I was told by Yushengtech that software updates would not work because I was in North America. The programmer in me called BS, and put a sniffer on the computer to see what was happening. OurSMT obviously blocked the serial numbers from Yushengtech, as the software connected sucessfully to the OurSMT servers. It just got denied due to serial number error. I even VPN'd / spoofed my computer so that it looked like I was in China. Same problem.

The fact that Michael admits that he had to buy a separate license from OurSMT just to get support should be enough to support my statement that Yushengtech was doing something wrong. If Yushengtech knew that the software was crap, and still sold it to me, without support, and knowing that it did not work properly, and that any problems would not be corrected,  then how could anyone expect them to be reputable in the future...

I recall when Michael started SmallSMT. I read about it in a few other forums... He had a nice new design that followed along some of the design guidelines that Yushengtech started. Except he had grand ideas of interchangeable feeders, better motors, cameras, etc and made in Germany. Once manufacturing estimates in Germany got out of hand, the design got dropped and he started selling Yushengtech products under the SmallSMT brand. Don't think that you are buying anything German from him. It is Yushengtech through and through...

Sure, now Yushengtech makes their own software. Not backwards compatible. Old machines are not upgradable.

I saw that someone said they should send me a new machine free of charge to shut me up. I will make it even easier. Refund me 100% of what I paid ($5315) and I will send the machine back at my expense. I am not asking for them to eat return shipping, my import fees, etc. Just the cost of machine. Pretty simple.

I guess the ball is in their court. Fix a customer problem that is 100% their fault, otherwise, I am happy to tell my story whenever I see them mentioned in a forum.

@Robert

Yushengtech has absolutely no regard for customer service.
Don't expect anything from them.

Like the most Chinese companies but SMALLSMT takes care of their customers!

They sold me a machine with pirated software (back before they wrote their own software), and when it did not work properly (vision), they stopped responding to email.

I bought the same SMT50 from Yushengtech and used it over 2 years.

They sold me a machine with pirated software

  Stop telling this wrong things!

OURSMT was the manufacturer of the controller and software. They protected their software by using a soft dog and protected the machine controller too.
So it was not possible to pirate this!
I bought a separate controller and software from OURSMT to receive support from this company for my SMT50.
The OURSMT software had a lot of bugs I reported to them. First he did some bug fixes but then he stopped. Their vision system was mostly not usable and as I know YUSHENG had a lot of problems with OURSMT too.

After this problem OURSMT decided to build own controller and software and the idea SMALLSMT was born.
We changed the business relation from customer to partners and started the development for a new system.
Curren't Yusheng / SMALLSMT machines are not compareable to to old quality and software options they had before.

It's documented  in every video on our website!

[Smallsmt]

@ROBERT
You are not my customer and SMALLSMT didn't sell anything to you so there is now way to refund the money I must be crazy if I do so!
I talk to Yushengtech Li how to fix your problem but this is a problem between YOU and them!
I help you to find a solution.

Best regards
Michael

Its kinda funny. I tried to keep Michael's reputation out of this, as he has been helpful in the past, albeit within his limitation of not really being the manufacturer, but only a sales rep. Since he has called me a liar, I guess the gloves are off.

#1, I stand by my statement that Yushengtech provides absolutely no support. The statement made by Michael that all Chinese companies do not provide support is completely false. Good companies build good product, and provide support. I have had great success purchasing products in China. Only one or two companies in the last 10 years stand out as being horrible to deal with. Yushentech was the worst.

#2, It is hard to call me a liar about the OurSMT software problem. I spoke directly with OurSMT rep in China, and they had nothing good to say about Yushengtech. Yushengtech made horrible copies the OurSMT daughter board. The soldering was crap.  Just because a program is dongle protected does not mean it is legitimate. But then again, maybe the just didn't pay their bills to OurSMT. In any case it was made very clear to me that OurSMT would not provide support or free updates (as advertised) to Yushengtech customers. That should speak volumes about Yushengtech. OurSMT made sure to disable any online updates to Yushengtech customers. I was told by Yushengtech that software updates would not work because I was in North America. The programmer in me called BS, and put a sniffer on the computer to see what was happening. OurSMT obviously blocked the serial numbers from Yushengtech, as the software connected sucessfully to the OurSMT servers. It just got denied due to serial number error. I even VPN'd / spoofed my computer so that it looked like I was in China. Same problem.

The fact that Michael admits that he had to buy a separate license from OurSMT just to get support should be enough to support my statement that Yushengtech was doing something wrong. If Yushengtech knew that the software was crap, and still sold it to me, without support, and knowing that it did not work properly, and that any problems would not be corrected,  then how could anyone expect them to be reputable in the future...

I recall when Michael started SmallSMT. I read about it in a few other forums... He had a nice new design that followed along some of the design guidelines that Yushengtech started. Except he had grand ideas of interchangeable feeders, better motors, cameras, etc and made in Germany. Once manufacturing estimates in Germany got out of hand, the design got dropped and he started selling Yushengtech products under the SmallSMT brand. Don't think that you are buying anything German from him. It is Yushengtech through and through...

Sure, now Yushengtech makes their own software. Not backwards compatible. Old machines are not upgradable.

I saw that someone said they should send me a new machine free of charge to shut me up. I will make it even easier. Refund me 100% of what I paid ($5315) and I will send the machine back at my expense. I am not asking for them to eat return shipping, my import fees, etc. Just the cost of machine. Pretty simple.

I guess the ball is in their court. Fix a customer problem that is 100% their fault, otherwise, I am happy to tell my story whenever I see them mentioned in a forum.

@Robert

Yushengtech has absolutely no regard for customer service.
Don't expect anything from them.

Like the most Chinese companies but SMALLSMT takes care of their customers!

They sold me a machine with pirated software (back before they wrote their own software), and when it did not work properly (vision), they stopped responding to email.

I bought the same SMT50 from Yushengtech and used it over 2 years.

They sold me a machine with pirated software

  Stop telling this wrong things!

OURSMT was the manufacturer of the controller and software. They protected their software by using a soft dog and protected the machine controller too.
So it was not possible to pirate this!
I bought a separate controller and software from OURSMT to receive support from this company for my SMT50.
The OURSMT software had a lot of bugs I reported to them. First he did some bug fixes but then he stopped. Their vision system was mostly not usable and as I know YUSHENG had a lot of problems with OURSMT too.

After this problem OURSMT decided to build own controller and software and the idea SMALLSMT was born.
We changed the business relation from customer to partners and started the development for a new system.
Curren't Yusheng / SMALLSMT machines are not compareable to to old quality and software options they had before.

It's documented  in every video on our website!

[Smallsmt]

Have you guys, or YS, created a 4 head machine yet ? If so, do you have any pics or video of it that you can show us?

Yes we have a prototype but still no progress to finish the design because I dislike to spend the extra space for the additional 2 heads we need to reduce the working area and feeder count if we don't change the overall size of our machine.
And second we don't sell untested product we need to spend a lot of time for testing and I need a 4 head in Germany to check  so there are more important projects to finish now.
Maybe we should talk about the four head in summer again.

* Can you show me a pic of the Strip Feeder and Deep Pocket designs, and how they will retrofit to my 2800HP machine if/when I buy one?

These option are all upgrades for current machines so it's possible to add later.
I am working on the design so first we will have a cut strip feeder I show some details at the weekend.
Next step is the deep pocket feeder to support tall caps you can put the tape in the feeder and manually advance the tape after maybe 10 or 20 parts placed.
Maybe it is possible to add a 10mm deep feeder line to our push feeder too but I need to build a prototype first.

* In the current design, can Head #2 travel to the center of Camera #1? Looking at the video of the 0201 placement closely, it doesn't appear it is able to move that far to the West. Please confirm.

Yes this is a limitation you can't move head 2 to camera 1.

* BTW - are you able to respond to my earlier post regarding the Vapor Phase Reflow Oven too?

I spend a lot of time to find a good solution for the elevator and still need some time to finish.
We launch a new webpage showing all details after design is finished and tested!

[Ice-Tea]

@ttsthermaltech

No offense, but I think you are giving this a bit of a one-sided treatment. To me, this has the markings of a deal between two parties (ourSMT and Yushen) gone bad with you, unfortunately, caught in the middle. You seem the have the idea that by talking to one of the parties (which can take off their hands of your machine this way without risking anything) you have the full picture now. I doubt this is the case. And even if your claims are 100% true and complete, it seems a bit hars to haunt a distributor like this. In addition, you seem to attach a lot of importance to the fact that this "Sunny" person is still in the picture. Again, bit hars to slander him/her because at some point in his/her life she was caught up in a bad deal. This person was probably also caught in the middle.

Does your story reflect well on Yushen? Probably not. But you seem to be hunting them down and I'm not sure if that is a good thing...

[ttsthermaltech]

@Ice-Tea

I appreciate you chiming in. It puts some depth to the circumstance. What needs to be understood, is that when I bought the machine, I was sold on the fact that it was a fully functional machine (ie: worked properly), and that software updates were included (ie: a process for getting any minor bugs fixed / addressed). This was not the case.

Yes, I purchased the machine via Yushengtech's previous distributor (HotHotSMT), but HotHotSMT provided Michaels contact info for support (ie, he was allready working with them). HotHotSMT would not do anything to fix any problems, and Yushengtech wont even respond to emails...

Unfortunately, my only course of action is to disrupt their sales chain (blogs / reviews / etc) until I can get some resolution to the problem. Have a ever gone after a company like this before? No I have not. Did Yushengtech make a bunch of pretty videos showing one part type pick and place operation using vision look functional, YES. Does my Yushengtech machine work even moderately well? NO. So I am forced to make my case publicly to try and get some resolution.

There are a bunch of ways they could have solved this a long time ago.

1) Replace the software / controller
2) Replace the machine
3) Take back machine / Refund

None of which were offered. As mentioned previously, they would not even send the 4 extra nozzles I ordered, and paid for that were not shipped with the machine. The nozzles were only $10 each (or thereabouts) but this is not about the money... This is about them selling machines with no recourse when they don't work as advertised.

What everyone needs to understand is that Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT are all the same people, same hardware.

Maybe I will get some recourse out of this, maybe not, but I will be absolutely sure that anyone looking to buy a Yushengtech machine knows how they treat customers...

[Smallsmt]

Unfortunately, my only course of action is to disrupt their sales chain (blogs / reviews / etc) until I can get some resolution to the problem. Have a ever gone after a company like this before? No I have not. Did Yushengtech make a bunch of pretty videos showing one part type pick and place operation using vision look functional, YES. Does my Yushengtech machine work even moderately well? NO. So I am forced to make my case publicly to try and get some resolution.

YOU LOST MY SUPPORT!
Try to fix by yourself but I do nothing for you !
I am not responsible for this problem.

[ttsthermaltech]

Michael,

I can only say this. I have sold a lot of product in my time. Some designed by me, and also products designed by others. I am both a manufacturer and a distributor of others products. Every product has a flaw somewhere, maybe a large flaw or maybe a small flaw that is barely noticeable. Sometimes hardware, sometimes software. If it affects a customer in a way that is basic to the operation of the product, it is a problem.

Every time I had a customer with a problem, be it my own products problem, or one of my manufacturers products, if the case was justified (ie, customer did not blow up the product, or hit it with a hammer), and it did not work properly, it got fixed, or replaced. Sometimes at my cost, most of the time I went to bat for the customer and got the manufacturer to fix / replace the product. As a representative of the company, it is my JOB! As a company I always want repeat business. It is far easier to keep existing customers happy , than to find new customers. Plain and simple.

You represent Yushengtech. They build it, you sell it. No matter how you deny that it is not your problem. Your whole sales chain is the same as when I purchased the machine. Sunny sells, you support, and Yushengtech builds. Just the name has changed on the export company.

You may not want to support me in this. That is your call. But I already accepted the fact that I lost 5K on this machine. How much is Yushengtech willing to lose?

If you want to take this away from the public forum, and can get Yushengtech to come to a amicable resolution, please feel free to PM me.

Rob.

Unfortunately, my only course of action is to disrupt their sales chain (blogs / reviews / etc) until I can get some resolution to the problem. Have a ever gone after a company like this before? No I have not. Did Yushengtech make a bunch of pretty videos showing one part type pick and place operation using vision look functional, YES. Does my Yushengtech machine work even moderately well? NO. So I am forced to make my case publicly to try and get some resolution.

YOU LOST MY SUPPORT!
Try to fix by yourself but I do nothing for you !
I am not responsible for this problem.

[Smallsmt]

@Robert
My last words about this topic:

There are a bunch of ways they could have solved this a long time ago.

1) Replace the software / controller
2) Replace the machine

I helped you before and you got this 2 offers but it wasn't acceptable for you!

You told us you already modified your machine.
And finally I used my SMT50 for two years to build PCB's if it was not usable how did I build my PCB?
I was in the same situation like you!

And finally I talked to yusheng this morning to find a solution but you can be sure I never do again!
Your total behaviour is out of any limits I am not your problem start talking to Yusheng!

And I think you should understand SMALLSMT cares every customer and I am responsible for my business now but not for Yushengtech or Oursmt problems some years before!
I am working more than 14 hours every day to support my customers like friends.

Yes, I purchased the machine via Yushengtech's previous distributor (HotHotSMT), but HotHotSMT provided Michaels contact info for support (ie, he was allready working with them). HotHotSMT would not do anything to fix any problems, and Yushengtech wont even respond to emails..

Sunny (HotHotSMT) tried to find help asking me (another customer) to help you!
And I helped you!

here a video of my working SMT50

[Smallsmt]

Your website ( albeit hidden ) provides the answer as to who is selling these machiens.  Its Wu Xiaojuan, aka Sunny.  The Same sunny who sold Robert this machine.   This is who you want money sent to....   Its a personal bank account.. ( Really? )

So interesting in sheep's country the world move in different direction.
My company account has personal name too because if you don't have a GmbH or Limited it's just normal too.
In China if you earn below 60000USD it's the same!
So be sure we have an AIC number soon!

Hidden?
http://www.smallsmt.biz/about-1/
It's the last entry in our navigation bar.

[Smallsmt]

The bank accoutn details are not on that web page, and thats what tells me who is selling this.

Ok I can't find on your webpage too please show me?
http://www.stellascapes.com/

[Smallsmt]

Id even consider buying a new YS/Small SMT machine, knowing that in all likelyhood if somethign goes wrong, there will be no support,  and ditching their software and runnging Open-pnp..   the same approach coudl probalby be made with a bunch of these machiens.

Good idea it's should be possible because machine  was build from modules.
There are stepper driver modules using clock and direction you need to interface.
And the vacuum  monitor is a module too only need to check the limit switch.
But I think Robert thought about it before.

[Smallsmt]

Andrew I like your guide lines you show on your website and if we all follow your rules it will be much better:


original found here http://www.stellascapes.com/#!about/c11ip
(c) Andrew Frazer Stellascapes

Stella Values:
(1) Outstanding results are obtained by open honest collaboration and communications.

(2) We seek to inspire confidence in our team, customers, partners and suppliers by always acting with integrity, fairness, respect and reliability.

(3) We constantly are looking to improve everything we do, and deliver to standards that exceed our customers expectations.
 
(4)  We strive to imagine, innovate and create solutions that take dreams into reality.

(5)  We will  behave in a balanced and thoughtful way, that considers all aspects of our business, and its impacts on our customers, staff, the environment, suppliers and shareholders we will bring good outcomes to everyone we deal with. We will not participate in business that exploits the vulnerable and exploits the unwary.

(6) We will own our mistakes and do our upmost to resolve them in a timely and fair way.

[Smallsmt]

I think you know the difference between sales and profits.
You can earn 60000usd that's profit!

Until now 30 machines!

[Smallsmt]

[We will own our mistakes]
Yes I do but you should know I already tried to help Robert before and today too!
But it's not acceptable to talk to me as I am responsible for this problem.

We had a customer from Korea received a damaged machine because of transportation problem.
He didn't recognize the problem as he received the machine.
I helped him to repair the machine and send him spare parts for free.
We sold a second machine to him at a very low price.
So we are responsible and this problem was caused by DHL.

But Robert is a different thing he didn't buy from SMALLSMT.
I helped him too first helped him to get his software running.
Then we talked about a new machine yusheng spend some money and he need to pay 3000usd and receive a new machine and keep the old.
Last step was we offered a controller and software update when drag function is integrated in vision placer software from yusheng for free.
So that's the history.
And now we stay here!
It's OURSMT and YUSHENGS problem and I took care of this problem and receive ...?

[Smallsmt]

Oh this is scary.. So if you are charging for freight and it arrives damaged, then he had to buy a new machine.. 

He needs more machines!
If you did not recognize the damaged package on arrive you can't open a claim to DHL.
Then it's finally a big problem because DHL don't pay.
But we solved his problem and he bought a second machine.

[Koen]

mrpackethead, you've certainly made a lot of efforts not to understand the answers of Michael and to turn this thread terrible.

[thommo]

Michael, perhaps consider this one point.

If we accept the problem here is YS, and YS have (for no good reason it appears) a very dissatisfied customer and refuse to even communicate with him about the issue, THEN as the 'rest of world' distributor for this product, ARE YOU INTENDING TO CONTINUE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH A COMPANY THAT BEHAVES IN THIS MANNER?

I know I certainly wouldn't, and I doubt MrPackethead would either.

Good luck in whatever you decide, but this has also frightened me away from this company now, and its distribution model.

It seems OpenPnP rules !!!

[thommo]

Not taking sides here, but if MrP is biased, then I am too.

I've read and comprehend all of what is being said, and disagree that there is any unjust comment that's been made here.

Perhaps the real question is this:
Are you, in the next short period, about to buy one of these machines?. I am was. Perhaps that's the real difference here.

If Michael is 'so good' (and many aspects are exceptionally good) and this makes up for poor and unacceptable YS behaviour, then where am I (and all the other customers) left if Michael (and his one person band) walk away for any reason (like they too find that YS is too difficult to deal with)?

mrpackethead, you've certainly made a lot of efforts not to understand the answers of Michael and to turn this thread terrible.

[Koen]

In the lasts posts I've read, he chose not to understand the role of an agent, that different type of companies with different rules exists, the difference between profit and revenue, the responsibility of the receiver for shipment verification and the fact this korean customer obviously needed a second machine along the first, not a second machine to repair the first.

Michael isn't that hard to understand but this has been going on for 5 pages and the signal to noise ratio took a dive.