EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Other Equipment & Products => Topic started by: Cliff Matthews on January 18, 2018, 05:01:23 pm
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120w and stays cool all day.. looks nice. FWIW, I'm down in the basement with the TS-100 stuff, but it's always nice to dream..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk)
*edit (subject line was too triggering)
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Hmm... not so sure about Pace, been using TD-100 irons for a few years now and to be honest I'm not impressed with the tips when using lead free. For fine or very fine SMT work I would prefer a Metcal over Pace anyday.
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I jumped to snag one for a possible EEVblog review right when they posted and if Dave wants one (no strings..), he can have one.
Who knows, maybe he'll prefer it over his JBC (110W vs 75W) and he can retire his old Pace station.
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You can take my MBT-250 when you can pry it out of my cold dead hand. :) :) :)
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I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
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I'll definitely keep an eye out for that review. Thanks Dave.
Now, I own several Pace items (e.g. MBT-250 w/SX-100, SMR-25, Pik & Paste 100) and a JBC CD-1 (w/T245 and T210) amongst several other well-known branded items. I like my MBT-250, but I was in the market for a cartridge based soldering station and looked at various soldering stations, including the WDS 100. After various evaluations, the CD-1 was much more suited to my personal requirements.
Back to the ADS200, I'm truly interested in more information than what's on the current official website for it, particularly:
- Price confirmation: I noticed that it's listed at a much lower price point than even it's "lesser spec'd" current digital "Intelliheat" stations, and I personally think that's great accomplishment
- Versatility and backwards compatibility: Lots of information concerning both "SensaTemp" and "Intelliheat", which is way too much for me to list here, but now's there's "AccuDrive", which opens another door to more questions. One thing I have noticed is that both the ST 50 and the WDS 100 are compatible with their MT 100 "mini tweezers", which is a design consideration that wasn't available in other single channel stations.
Because I'm a longtime customer of Pace, I'm thinking of reaching out with these enquiries to see what and when they can provide more specifics, because the price point and design revisions have me quite curious.
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JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip. Re-tinning with Kester tinning paste did not help. Running it only at 260C . The handpiece is too delicate and too long for comfortable work, I always fear it will snap in half if I am not very careful putting it in the holder. The only good thing is the tip changing design, just takes less than 2 sec using the bracket on the stand to pull the tip out and insert the other one. When ADS200 comes out , will buy the same day and ditch the JBC.
Edit: if Pace will supply the station with good quality tips, it indeed may become JBC killer.
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JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip.
My tips have corroded too.
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JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip.
My tips have corroded too.
I believe mine might have as well, however... I've had my iron set at 325 C with a setback temp of 150 C. The usual solder I use is Kester 63/37 Eutectic rosin core solder over a variety of tips for both of my irons. I use minimal dwell time and when I'm ready to replace the iron, I apply solder, remove by a gentle and quick wipe over the corner of the shock sponge, reapply more solder, then place in the holder. I only use the heavy wool if serious contamination is present and that's not been often. I turn the unit completely off unless I think I'm going to use the iron again within a minute or two.
With that mentioned, I performed maintenance and repair on a variety of items (most consumer repairs) at least 3 to 4 times a week for the past year and still perform quite well and wet very easily. I've only used tip tinner twice in the beginning, which I almost thought my tips were ruined, but were easily wetted with minimum controlled solder after some rewetting with the usual solder I use.
These are just my results so far, however... I believe once I need to use a harsh lead-free solder with an acidic flux, any tips used are going to be very short lived. I'll report back when the situation arises.
In regards to my Pace MBT-250 w/SX-100 desoldering iron, I've set the iron to roughly 335 to 350 C. I've abused the tips by doing lots of the things that shorten tip life, including desoldering lots of SAC305 and other lead-free alloys with extended dwell times. After each extended period, I've followed the Pace recommended barrel clearing procedure before replacing. I remove the tip and turn the iron off if I'm not using it more than a few minutes. Each tip lasted about a year or more. This is not realistically convenient, nor cost effective for most practical uses, however these are the results I've experienced with this procedure.
Again, I'm speaking only from my experience on my own rework equipment.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that occasionally I use an old Pace ST400 IR preheater on any board I think would need it.
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JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip. Re-tinning with Kester tinning paste did not help. Running it only at 260C . The handpiece is too delicate and too long for comfortable work, I always fear it will snap in half if I am not very careful putting it in the holder. The only good thing is the tip changing design, just takes less than 2 sec using the bracket on the stand to pull the tip out and insert the other one. When ADS200 comes out , will buy the same day and ditch the JBC.
Edit: if Pace will supply the station with good quality tips, it indeed may become JBC killer.
My tips have corroded too.
I've had no problems with JBC tip oxidation. Wet as good as my Hakko.
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I have a MBT-250 with the normal handpiece, the tweezers and SX-100 soldersucker, Made a big mistake 3 years ago to buy a Metcal station. Solders really great but the quality suck, the service even more. I did it because my (20 years old ? ) SX-70 was worn. So I was very happy I did not sell my MBT-250. 6 months ago I asked Pace for advice about overhauling my old MBT. They gave very quick, honest and good advice. Supplied me even the tip-partnumbers I needed and which soldersucker would fit my needs. I still do not regret that. I do a lot of soldering and desoldering (professional repairwork) I would like to add in the future a station with a micro handpiece, and microtweezers and add a hotair pencil to my 250 (I'm not sure yet they have one for my 250).
The only downside is the long warming up time. Often not a problem because it is almost always powered on but it increases the lifetime of the gear(and tips) and as much as I use it some on/of handpiece stand and fast heating would be an advantage . That feature I liked from the Metcal.
If I need a third station or replace my Weller the new Pace would be a serious candidate.
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PA4TIM - Based on history, do you see the street price of the ADS200 eventually falling from 239 to 199? The reason I ask is Dave could include it as an alternate candidate in the shoot-out (at least if they weren't joking, he could have one free...) :popcorn:
*edit - They seem interested in giving him one for a burl.. I made sure no strings attached (once they hit production)
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My tips have corroded too.
So as mine.
Because of that I just got Chinese clone tip for a test (C245-034) and so far it performs as good as original, does not oxidize, has superb tin wetting and cost half the price.
Time will tell how long it will last, but for now I am satisfied.
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add a hotair pencil to my 250 (I'm not sure yet they have one for my 250).
I'm not sure if you are asking a question here, but just in case... You want a SensaTemp TJ-70. There's a new one on ebay right now, a little on the pricey side. If you are patient, cheaper ones come up from time to time (frequently mislabeled).
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Thanks for the info but it was not a question. It is for the future, At this moment my Oki still works fine.
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Seems difficult to buy this one, it's not in the pace online shop yet.
Also none of the stores ("where to buy") on the paceworldwide.com page have it.
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Seems difficult to buy this one, it's not in the pace online shop yet.
Also none of the stores ("where to buy") on the paceworldwide.com page have it.
It 's a new product http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/ (http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/)
It shows $239 in this store https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp (https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp)
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PA4TIM - Based on history, do you see the street price of the ADS200 eventually falling from 239 to 199? The reason I ask is Dave could include it as an alternate candidate in the shoot-out (at least if they weren't joking, he could have one free...) :popcorn:
*edit - They seem interested in giving him one for a burl.. I made sure no strings attached (once they hit production)
I do not think Pace should make cheap hobby grade stations. I would rather pay 300 for a wel build Pace and still can buy parts over 10 year as a hobby grade 150 dollar Pace. 239 dollar is already very cheap if it is Pace quality.
I do not mind if they send me one for a serious review. I do not have enough subscribers but I would only review such a station after I worked a few weeks (minimal 3 to 6 hours a day ) with it.
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Do i see no strain relief on the handpiece? :-//
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It 's a new product http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/ (http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/)
It shows $239 in this store https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp (https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp)
I can't use the 120V version :) (but thanks!)
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It 's a new product http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/ (http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/)
It shows $239 in this store https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp (https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp)
I can't use the 120V version :) (but thanks!)
Yeah, just read the bottom of the brochure.. I'll include a link FWIW..
https://technimark-inc.com/images/ADS200_Brochure_US-version%20_PN5400-0149.pdf (https://technimark-inc.com/images/ADS200_Brochure_US-version%20_PN5400-0149.pdf)
*Don't see why they don't use a 90-240v switcher and avoid complexities (conversion: open box and trade manual and IEC line cord)
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Update: There is no retro compatibility with older hand pieces and they have a mini-tweezer to be released this summer.
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Update: There is no retro compatibility with older hand pieces and they have a mini-tweezer to be released this summer.
Just noticed that reply on my YouTube enquiry. My completely random assumption is that after much consideration, it was much more economical and feasible to start with a completely new standard and lineup, whilst supporting and eventually phasing out some of the older series (again, just my wild guess from noticing their lineups over the years).
I'm hoping the newer mini-tweezers are designed similar to the newer soldering pencil (using cues from their newer soldering pencil hand piece, as well as having an even larger large variety of tips than previous). The vast amount of "hot tip tweezers" I've tried have worked, but not to the point where I felt they were worth the investment.
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I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
That would be awesome. I have $800 stations on my workbenches in the lab. Thats fine. we make stuff htat earns money. and some of its specialist. But i'm constantly being asked by people what to buy.
I really love my Hakko FX951.. as my 'go-to' iron.
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Just noticed that reply on my YouTube enquiry. My completely random assumption is that after much consideration, it was much more economical and feasible to start with a completely new standard and lineup, whilst supporting and eventually phasing out some of the older series (again, just my wild guess from noticing their lineups over the years).
So that makes the 4th generation of Pace handpiece connectors:
1. 1960s 117V Thermodrive (NEMA 5-15 socket)
2. 1980s Sensatemp (circular connector w/ black collar)
3. 2000s Intelliheat (circular connector w/ blue collar)
4. 2018 Accudrive (don't know if this will be color coded)
It's worth remembering that there was limited backwards compatibility for earlier generations. For example, Intelliheat stations could use Sensatemp handpieces with an adapter cable, and certain Sensatemp stations like the PPS400 could be used to control the temperature of 117V tools.
There was a special connector for the HeatWise and TempWise stations (the red collar) that was equivalent to Intelliheat, without the backwards compatible capability.
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Just noticed that reply on my YouTube enquiry. My completely random assumption is that after much consideration, it was much more economical and feasible to start with a completely new standard and lineup, whilst supporting and eventually phasing out some of the older series (again, just my wild guess from noticing their lineups over the years).
So that makes the 4th generation of Pace handpiece connectors:
1. 1960s 117V Thermodrive (NEMA 5-15 socket)
2. 1980s Sensatemp (circular connector w/ black collar)
3. 2000s Intelliheat (circular connector w/ blue collar)
4. 2018 Accudrive (don't know if this will be color coded)
It's worth remembering that there was limited backwards compatibility for earlier generations. For example, Intelliheat stations could use Sensatemp handpieces with an adapter cable, and certain Sensatemp stations like the PPS400 could be used to control the temperature of 117V tools.
There was a special connector for the HeatWise and TempWise stations (the red collar) that was equivalent to Intelliheat, without the backwards compatible capability.
Wow! Great historical reference! I just remembered the heatwise/tempwise looked a lot like the IntelliHeat pieces.
Funny thing is at least one company makes aftermarket handpieces for the “ThermoDrive” (one of them being A.P.E.).
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I hope Dave will eventually manage to do a review of this unit. I have all Pace stations at work and I love them.
I started off with Weller in the beginning, then moved to Metcal, then picked up a Pace and found it far far superior to the Metcal.
I have a bag of Pace tips and I think in about 7 years I have MAYBE gone through about 2 or 3 tips with countless tens of thousands of soldered connections. I don't know what it is about Pace tips, but they just do not die. On the other hand, Metcal tips were lasting me a couple of months before they would corrode and disintegrate.
The Pace heats up faster and has just as much power and thermal capability as the Metcal, if not more, and I can adjust the temp to whatever I want. I would never go back to Metcal.
So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
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So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
I thought Dave said in #4 it didn't fit his criteria (something about leading horses to water comes to mind..)
I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.
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...I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.
If you do, I hope your wife realises it's "investment potential." :) I'll also keep an eye out if you or anyone decides to review it.
I'm still watching for more details from Pace concerning the ADS 200, mainly:
- Implementing all current tip shapes from regular and "gold series" tips into the AccuDrive line
- New tweezers with all available Pace mini-tweezer tips shapes.
- New tweezers incorporating "cool handle" tech as the new soldering pencil does.
- New tweezers incorporating ISB (not currently implemented in the MT-100, so I have a bit of a doubt).
I'll stay tuned...
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I think they're debuting this at IPC APEX, so maybe I'll be able to give it a try there.
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I think they're debuting this at IPC APEX, so maybe I'll be able to give it a try there.
Nice, ask them if they're still sending one to Dave.. If they give you a shrug, point them to their own public YouTube comments. :popcorn:
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It seems like a pretty nice unit. I got to poke at one for a bit on the APEX show floor. I tested a small tip on a lightweight test board, and it got nice contact with SOP leads and quickly flowed the solder. The tip stayed wet well, and I was able to work several solder joints in a row without re-tinning. The handle does seem to stay cool. I'm planning on going back later this week and testing a heavier tip on some pennies.
It sounds like their tips may not have the temperature sensor right in next to the end, but it sounds like they're all going to be available for $10-15. At least at present, their tip selection looks good, but mostly run of the mill. They didn't show anything like the JBC wide blades or other less common but useful tips.
They had prototype tweezers for the unit, but they're still a few months out from production. They had a twist mechanism on each handle to allow you to easily adjust the angle of the tips. They also have a stand with a mechanical switch for detecting the handpiece that will be coming out later.
It sounds like, in the distant future, they may be introducing something like their MBT350 unit that supports the new handpieces. However, they didn't have a timeframe for it.
Let me know if there's anything in particular I should report on.
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Dave, it looks like you have some "boots on the ground" at APEX. Maybe Ransonjd can get them to come good on their YouTube promise and send you one so we all can see this thing close-up?
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Have some photos.
I soldered together some pennies with a mini-wave tip using some chipquik tacky flux and the solder wire they happened to have at their display. It didn't feel like the iron had a hard time at all, but pennies are still easier than a heavy ground plane.
The units are stackable, and the extrusion used for the case seems like it could be easily bolted to the underside of a shelf.
I asked about sending one off to Dave. It sounds likely, but not guaranteed.
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The units are stackable, and the extrusion used for the case seems like it could be easily bolted to the underside of a shelf.
My MBT250 has those slots too. For some time I want it under the bench instead of on the bench. Never thought using those slots. Thanks ;)
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I wonder if they ship by default with ISB on the back (I recall a "cubby mod" out there somewhere..).
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..well at least it doesn't have a stupid TFT touchscreen or bloody wifi ;)
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One thing that impressed me about Pace was that everything worked as their demo team expected. At Weller, one of their handpieces was jammed so you couldn't remove the cartridge, and it took a couple tries for them to show how to configure one of the units. Also, the Weller circular touch dial on the WX series seems like a horrible idea.
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It's a different market.
Pace makes equipment for production use. This is the stuff a smart purchasing decision maker will buy for a production line/environment, perhaps never using this equipment themselves, even.
I think a higher percentage of JBC users are doing design work and prototyping/debuggin/repair. And probably they are often the guy making the purchase decisions (their own boss, equipment procurer). Nothing about JBC makes financial sense for long term hard use. They're in the business of fishing for fishermen. If having JBC on your bench makes you happy, then it's worth it. Like a CEO driving a Ferrari, why not? The guys that are doing the heavy soldering don't care about the LCD screen and the 3 second warm up time.
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And that is why I love my Pace. I solder a lot (repair work, not the usual stuff. I often have to repair/rebuild boards by desoldering all parts, testing them and replace them)
It is not shiny, sleek looking, no fancy functions or displays. Just functional. The handpieces are rather big, it heats up not very fast . But it is build like a tank, I can leave it on the whole day. Plenty of power. Desoldering RF shielding is no problem. Yesterday was the first time the SX100 became a bit hot in my hands. That was after desoldering four 40 pin boxconnectors (160 pins from a 4 layer board, without any pauze). The unit is around 20 years old or so. I replaced de PS80 a few years ago and last year the SX70 for a SX100. The pump is still like new. Never replaced a single part, cleaned it once, but that turned to be not necessary. .The few times I had a question or needed advise they helped me fast and good.
Because it was so old and much used I made the mistake to replace it with a Metcal station a few years ago. I threw that pile of junk out after less then 1.5 years of use. (worn parts: two solder handpieces, two desolder handpieces, more tips as my pace used in 5 years and 2 worn pumps.)
When the second handpiece cable became over 100 degrees C and Metcall told me that is a known fault but mine was outside the warranty I had had it and threw it out. over 1600 euro wasted.
I was so happy I had kept my Pace as backup set. (I also have a Weller WS-81 station, nothing wrong with that. I use it for smd and as a back-up, I can not work without solder gear)
So for me it is Pace forever.
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A local merchant started ads for the ADS200 and i am ready to pull the trigger but can't find information which tip(s) it comes with, if any. If no tip is included that would be a cheap trick from Pace to artificially reduce price. Do anyone know what cartridge is included ?
Edit: confirmed with the merchant - does not include any tip cartriges, must buy separately. :-\
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I may get this if the reviews are good. I bought an FX-888D to replace my Weller but really wanted a better iron with even faster recovery and better thermal capacity. I wonder if it's programmable to go into sleep mode. Because I really don't think I need a $60 instant setback stand for electronic repair work.
Edit: Actually don't know what the model with the instant setback stand will sell for. I was looking at some wrong info.
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I may get this if the reviews are good. I bought an FX-888D to replace my Weller but really wanted a better iron with even faster recovery and better thermal capacity. I wonder if it's programmable to go into sleep mode. Because I really don't think I need a $60 instant setback stand for electronic repair work.
Edit: Actually don't know what the model with the instant setback stand will sell for. I was looking at some wrong info.
You may want to read this before you order it with ISB https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/)
One thing I hoped Dave would show (if he decided to let them ship one), is the possibility of easy DIY instant-set-back on the new model.
This is all the ST models require:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/?action=dlattach;attach=91968;image)
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Thanks for the diagram. I just spoke to a PACE distributor here in the USA. They say the ISB stand will be available as an accessory (no price or availability yet), so I imagine the base model will have the port on the back.
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I did even better and spoke to tech support at Pace. He told me pretty much the same thing. So I guess it will have the port on the back.
He also told me it can be programmed to setback if there's no thermal load detected for a period and it will wake up when you put the tip of the iron on the wet sponge for a few seconds or flip the power switch off and back on. 10 minutes is the minimum setting.
That may be good enough for me. I'm not using it for production.
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It's confirmed, in a few weeks Pace will send one so we can all get a good look!
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Great news! I can't wait for Dave to put it though its Paces! :-DD
I'm thinking Pace felt they needed something for the hobbyist. I'm trying to figure out what they cut out of this model? Or are the just low-balling the price to gain marketshare? A lot of competition out there. I hope Dave compares it to the FX-951 for performance and value.
I like soldering station wars. Brings better technology for cheaper money. I'd like to see the cost of tip cartridges go under $10.
TEquipment has it listed for $219 US. Do I hear $199 anyone?
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They likely don't have password protected temperature limits on this model (so production workers can't screw things up).
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I'm thinking Pace felt they needed something for the hobbyist. I'm trying to figure out what they cut out of this model? Or are the just low-balling the price to gain marketshare? A lot of competition out there. I hope Dave compares it to the FX-951 for performance and value.
I'm probably reaching with this, however...
From the information replied in my YouTube comment (under my YouTube username), a very big part could be making it "AccuDrive only", which reduced the possible complexity costs associated with IntelliHeat (retro compatible with SensaTemp). Another thing I noticed is that the cartridge based hand pieces are priced less than their SensaTemp equivalents (though the cartridges themselves are usually priced higher than non cartridge tips). Mostly guesses on my part.
I like soldering station wars. Brings better technology for cheaper money. I'd like to see the cost of tip cartridges go under $10.
I agree x1000! I personally look forward to their newer tech offerings.
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I'm probably reaching with this, however...
From the information replied in my YouTube comment (under my YouTube username), a very big part could be making it "AccuDrive only", which reduced the possible complexity costs associated with IntelliHeat (retro compatible with SensaTemp). Another thing I noticed is that the cartridge based hand pieces are priced less than their SensaTemp equivalents (though the cartridges themselves are usually priced higher than non cartridge tips). Mostly guesses on my part.
I agree x1000! I personally look forward to their newer tech offerings.
I'm thinking that since they increased the wattage of the system to 120w maximum output, they had to use a different system of tips with heating elements of lower resistance. Thus making the old tips incompatible with the new drive system. The tips are priced about the same. So no big deal as long as there's availability. If it heats up in like 3 seconds and performs well it may well become popular. It will be deemed successful when aftermarket cartridges and parts are available from Bangood, Aliexpress and everywhere.
Then Hakko will have to make an iron that puts out 200w and heats in under a second for $98. I want to be able to weld a trailer hitch.
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So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
I thought Dave said in #4 it didn't fit his criteria (something about leading horses to water comes to mind..)
I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.
It didn't fit my original requirement of a $100 station shootout.
I'ts not fair to compare apples an oranges. In this case a $100 traditional tip station vs a $200+ fast heat integrated tip station.
This ADS200 would compare with the Hakko FX951 etc
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So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
I thought Dave said in #4 it didn't fit his criteria (something about leading horses to water comes to mind..)
I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.
It didn't fit my original requirement of a $100 station shootout.
I'ts not fair to compare apples an oranges. In this case a $100 traditional tip station vs a $200+ fast heat integrated tip station.
This ADS200 would compare with the Hakko FX951 etc
I believe I already said in that review thread, the ADS200 should be compared to the FX951, the Metcal PS900 or MFR series, the Thermaltronics equivalent (TMT-2000S and EB-2000S), and so forth.
Being $250-350 a throw, that's sadly an expensive shootout.
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I think everything will be integrated tip cartridges eventually. Just gonna take a couple more product cycles. Because it seems like they cost peanuts to make now.
That portable TS100 iron is $50 or even less on a deal including cartridge. Just add a powered base unit and a stand to a similar design. Could be less than $100.
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Being $250-350 a throw, that's sadly an expensive shootout.
More in AUD.
I'd get back maybe $50 in adsense revenue if I'm lucky.
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I think everything will be integrated tip cartridges eventually. Just gonna take a couple more product cycles. Because it seems like they cost peanuts to make now.
That portable TS100 iron is $50 or even less on a deal including cartridge. Just add a powered base unit and a stand to a similar design. Could be less than $100.
I don't believe this is the case. There are inherent drawbacks and limited pros for cartridge tips. There is always room for the old school design.
The simple fact that the cartridge tips rely on an electromechanical spring contact connection for power is a bit of a drawback for a tool that is designed to make solder connections.
The fact that is that as parts get smaller and smaller, oftentimes it is more efficient to use tips that are bigger. Thermal mass vs super fast response time is always going to have a place.
Being slightly better at specific things at the cost of increased complexity and operational costs is not necessarily a benefit to an application or user who is not doing those specific things.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The thing I hear about Metcal sometimes is the "I can desolder this resistor and this heatsink with the same tip." Well, in any repair, the soldering part is not the time-consuming or difficult part. In any production setup, you can have as many different irons and tips and stations and workers as you want to produce things efficiently. There's maybe one dude on the planet that is brilliant enough to decide what things need to be desoldered and replaced on the fly to where this amazing response time is going to make a gnat's ass worth of difference.
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The simple fact that the cartridge tips rely on an electromechanical spring contact connection for power is a bit of a drawback for a tool that is designed to make solder connections.
Most soldering irons rely on electromechanical spring contact connections between the handle and the control unit/power supply. Why is the springs connecting a cartridge a problem?
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Well, here are two cases
Weller mini pencil has a 3mm stereo jack connector that mates to in the middle of the handle. The front part of the handle is part of the tip. To the connector has to handle lateral forces, and it bends around in there with some play. And they do wear out.
I have torn a T12 tip from insertions/removal. Ripped the contacts off the tip.
But you are right. Even sticking the plug into the mains outlet is relying on a spring contact. So my comment is pretty stupid.
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Weller mini pencil has a 3mm stereo jack connector that mates to in the middle of the handle. The front part of the handle is part of the tip. To the connector has to handle lateral forces, and it bends around in there with some play. And they do wear out.
The 3 mm "headphone" jack is a terrible design and a terrible choice for this application.
I have torn a T12 tip from insertions/removal. Ripped the contacts off the tip.
That is a fail of the implementation, not of the concept.
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Is this legit, maybe? :-//
1. You change a tip way more many times than plug/unplug an iron. No matter how many times you change the tip on a 936, you won't wear out an electrical connection.
2. The tip undergoes some forces on it, regularly, rather than just hanging in a socket.
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In the 70's my dad built ham radios with one of those irons that had a screw to hold the tip in and used an ash tray for a stand. He used a Bic lighter to heat shrink connections. He had another iron with a wooden handle that looked like a branding iron. And a Weller soldering gun with the trigger. I inherited one of those from this old timer who was the best TV technician I ever knew.
I started using Unger irons in the 80's and 90's that had screw-on tips. I built some test equipment with them.
When I got a Weller station, I had to start wearing a seat belt.
The new irons are like having a turbo charged race car. The need for speed. Gotta have it.
Fuel injection systems are more complex. Would you go back to a carburetor?
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..No matter how many times you change the tip on a 936, you won't wear out an electrical connection.
Ok, but what about thermal transfer? (see DaveCad in the latest video). When I receive my ADS200, I will post some close-up shots on the interior of the new aluminum pencil handle to allow others to give some assessment of electrical contact strength.
(https://s18.postimg.org/5krgavs8p/Pace_are_contacts_good_for_120w.jpg)
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1. You change a tip way more many times than plug/unplug an iron. No matter how many times you change the tip on a 936, you won't wear out an electrical connection.
2. The tip undergoes some forces on it, regularly, rather than just hanging in a socket.
I think those factors weigh against the 936 style, because you are more likely to crack the ceramic heater than to damage a well-designed coaxial plug-in system. Some connectors (TT and TRS) can be rated for millions of insertions; even if the insertions on a JBC or Metcal are only 10,000 that's way more than the number of cycles it takes to break a 936 heater.
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Has anyone reported problems with the hand-piece of the Pace WJS-100 station? That's also 120W and been out for 4-5 years. Doesn't seem real popular though, from what I can tell by browsing.
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Some connectors (TT and TRS) can be rated for millions of insertions
Most common use for this style of connector is to transit pre-amplified audio signals.
I think every cartridge style station has instructions in the manual to the effect "if display does not show X, remove and reinsert the cartridge." Or it could say, if it don't work, jiggle it. They do NOT suggest you unplug and reinsert the mains socket or the iron cord.
The new irons are like having a turbo charged race car. The need for speed. Gotta have it.
If I want to win a race, I want a race car, yeah. If I want to get to work, I can drive a Honda. If I want to move tons of merchandise at a time, I would probably use trailer trucks. :)
Fuel injection systems are more complex. Would you go back to a carburetor?
In this case, no. The problem with carbs is they can be clogged by fuel impurities, and you have to drain the float bowls before storing for any length of time. Cleaning them is a bitch, and getting to them likely an even bigger bitch.
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Contacted Desab, the swedish distributor for a quote.
3.190 SEK(390$~)+VAT for the version with the ISB holder, Tips go for roughly 20$.
Might as well get the CD-2BE I use at work at that price, anyone found them in eu for a more resonable price? Mainly looking for the version with the ISB holder(P/N 8007-0581 230).
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Contacted Desab, the swedish distributor for a quote.
3.190 SEK(390$~)+VAT for the version with the ISB holder, Tips go for roughly 20$.
Might as well get the CD-2BE I use at work at that price, anyone found them in eu for a more resonable price? Mainly looking for the version with the ISB holder(P/N 8007-0581 230).
Sad observing greed at that level, but smile taxes pay for socialism (ha, I live in Canada.. croak!)
$219 at TEquipment. Most tips are $12 to $16 and the ISB would likely be a $10 external hack.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0578/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0578/Soldering-Stations/)
When mine arrives, this 120w $17 1/4inch "get it done son" chisel will be my daily runner (I think..)
(https://s18.postimg.org/dzwt3wayh/120w-0.25chisel-blue.jpg)
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I'm glad I live in USA when I see what everything costs in the EU. Though nice train system in France.
I hope there will be a EEVblog discount from TEquipment. Maybe $199 or less. Of course, provided it gets a good review.
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I already own a JBC system but I need a second station and I getting ready to order Hakko FM203-DP was going to order anther JBC but the tip cost is kill me I have about 10 different tips I use and to be honest the JBC is good but I want to try another system.
What do you guys think should I get this Pace system instead? I have a cart all set at TEquipment but I really wanted the ISB holder but after talking to Pace today it will not be here until May not even in productions yet. I did get the full manual which is a draft as the final is not even completed yet. :-DD
Need to order it before midnight eastern time to get the 25% off the Hakko. :) If I order the Hakko I will get the Mini Parallel Remover and the Micro Soldering Iron Kit the tips are just so damn cheap for the Hakko most of the one's I want are under $10 and the others are $16
Let me know what you think I have never owned a Hakko.
I have had JBC, Weller, Pace, Metcal, Edsyn the JBC is nice but I hate the cost and I don't think the tips stay wet enough.
Let me know your thoughts.......
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JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip.
My tips have corroded too.
We had oxidation problems at work. The reason was using steel wool which was suplied with the JBC unit. We changed to brass wool and the tips lasted long again.
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I already own a JBC system but I need a second station and I getting ready to order Hakko FM203-DP was going to order anther JBC but the tip cost is kill me I have about 10 different tips I use and to be honest the JBC is good but I want to try another system.
What do you guys think should I get this Pace system instead? I have a cart all set at TEquipment but I really wanted the ISB holder but after talking to Pace today it will not be here until May not even in productions yet. I did get the full manual which is a draft as the final is not even completed yet. :-DD
Need to order it before midnight eastern time to get the 25% off the Hakko. :) If I order the Hakko I will get the Mini Parallel Remover and the Micro Soldering Iron Kit the tips are just so damn cheap for the Hakko most of the one's I want are under $10 and the others are $16
Let me know what you think I have never owned a Hakko.
I have had JBC, Weller, Pace, Metcal, Edsyn the JBC is nice but I hate the cost and I don't think the tips stay wet enough.
Let me know your thoughts.......
I've only used Weller so I have no opinion about the performance or tip life of Hakko, Pace or JBC. However, from what I've read, Pace seems to have better thermal performance at than Hakko FX-951. Not sure if it's the same as the FM-203.
If you've used Pace and like the ergonomics, performance and tip life, you can get two separate 120w Pace stations for the cost of the FM-203. I'm wondering what the cost will be for Pace with the setback stand. I don't think they've even established a price yet?
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From what I can find it looks like the unit with the ISB holder will probably be around $299
Ya that is one concern I have with the Hakko I work on a lot of receivers and HDMI boards and I am wondering if the Hakko will handle it.
The Hakko FM203-DP is only going to cost me $409.00 delivered that's with two irons seams like a excellent price. I guess I could always purchase it and if I don't like it sell it I should be able to break even.
The other positive with the Hakko is the tips selection I am sure Pace will add more over time and I think this line is going to grow.
Maybe I should just purchase both then I will know for sure which is better. HAHAHAHA LOL :-DD :scared: :scared: :scared:
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I think the FM-203 will put out up to 140W. So two 70w irons or one 140W iron. When one particular( I forget which) hand-piece or tweezer with a high mass tip is plugged into the left port, it doesn't allow the other iron to operate simultaneously. But I'd rather have two separate systems.
With the Pace, I'd probably try to fabricate some kind of setback switch if it's $60 extra. Maybe something a simple as a microswitch.
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I think the FM-203 will put out up to 140W. So two 70w irons or one 140W iron. When one particular( I forget which) hand-piece or tweezer with a high mass tip is plugged into the left port, it doesn't allow the other iron to operate simultaneously. But I'd rather have two separate systems.
So if it was you you would purchase two single channel stations?
Ya I am looking at the limitations of the dual unit and think you might be right. I do want some tweezers but I don't have to have them right now and it looks like they are coming for the Pace unit.
I might just order the Pace unit and give it a go if I find I like it I will order a second one when the ISB holder is available.
Hmmmm what to do????? I hate decision like this :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
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So you've used Pace before? How did you like the thermal performance? Tip quality, longevity?
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So you've used Pace before? How did you like the thermal performance? Tip quality, longevity?
From what I remember there were excellent at the time I think the unit I used to have was the Pace ST 45 with the PS-90 Iron
I have not used there new equipment.
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I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
That would be awesome. I have $800 stations on my workbenches in the lab. Thats fine. we make stuff htat earns money. and some of its specialist. But i'm constantly being asked by people what to buy.
I really love my Hakko FX951.. as my 'go-to' iron.
I'm also highly interested in the shootout... been looking for a newer station for myself.. been using a plain old analog weller for years.. cant complain, gets the job done... maybe not as fast or controlled as a hakko or jbc but its good enough.. enough so not to motivate me to get one of the newer style stations as shown by Dave in his other reviews less its a knockoff maybe... I dont really trust knockoff stuff though to anything power delivery related.... just see fake apple chargers
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Hi EEVbloggers!
This is Aaron from PACE Worldwide, here to answer your questions about the new ADS200 AccuDrive Soldering Station (finally)! Sorry it’s taken this long, but I don’t get online as much as I should. I’ll try to answer some of the questions I’ve seen in this thread. Please feel free to comment.
Status of ADS200 Production: we’re in very limited production of the station right now because of a shortage of key parts, so you probably won’t see high quantities of the ADS200 in the US until early April, and about 3 weeks later for Europe (we ship from our North Carolina factory to our UK office).
Evaluation Units: We will be shipping evaluation units to both Cliff Matthews and Dave within the next few weeks. We wanted to ship them this week, but parts issues on both station and tips have caused a delay ... sigh. :-[
Direct Orders from paceworldwide.com: We intend to have a new page up with the capability to order via paypal or credit card live by next week, but we’ve been holding off due to the parts shortage. Not a good idea to sell something online that you can't immediately ship. In the meantime, you can view features and video on our www.paceworldwide.com/ads200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/ads200), but this site is external to paceworldwide.com so it will not have the capability to order.
Pricing: The $239 price (£199 in UK/€225 in EU) is the final list price … this “introductory price” is a bit of a marketing thing, but the price is not likely to go up or down in the near future. Note that PACE does not control what an authorized distributor can sell the unit for, so you are likely to see fluctuations (up or down) depending on the distributor. I doubt you’ll see anything close to $199 in the US, since distributors are likely to take a loss at that price.
No Stain Relief on the TD-200 Handpiece: Our strain relief is internal to the handpiece, a tried and true design on most of our soldering irons for the past 20 years, and we’ve never had issues with the cords wearing out or failing. Now handpiece breakage is another thing, and it’s one of the reasons we have switched to an all-metal handle design. Unlike the older (and more brittle) ESD-safe plastic we used on the previous TD-100 handles, the new TD-200 is that ships with the ADS200 is practically impossible to break. In addition, the aluminum keeps the handpiece cool at any temperature, even in extended use situations (our previous TD-100 handle could get really HOT).
Mini-Tweezers: I showed one of the prototypes to ransonjd (EEVblog member who mentioned that he soldered the pennies together at the APEX Show), and this handpiece will become available in mid-Summer. It will be compatible with the ADS200 only, not previous PACE soldering stations (ST 50, WJS 100, etc). We have a ton of tooling on this handpiece, and some of the longer lead-time items will take up to 3 months to receive after final design.
Instant SetBack (ISB) Tool Stand: All versions of the ADS200 will have a port on the back panel (which can be seen in ransonjd’s images of the back panel that he that photographed at the Apex Show) that allows for the addition of an optional ISB Tool Stand, which automatically drops the temperature of the tips below solder melt so that they don’t oxidize (and thus last up to 5x longer). There are also other part numbers for the ADS200 (PN 8007-0579 for 120 VAC; PN 8007-0580 for 230 VAC) that include the ISB Tool Stand as part of the package. Sorry, no price on those units yet as we are still waiting for critical parts to be priced and received. The ISB Tool Stand versions should be available by late April.
All ADS200 feature SetBack and AutoOff, which is built into the power supply: the standard ADS200 features software driven Setback and AutoOff features that can be programmed from the power supply Programming Menu, so you may not even need an ISB Tool Stand. The default setting is the unit will automatically “set back” the temperature to 350°F after 30 minutes of inactivity, then shut off the power to the TD-200 Handpiece 60 minutes after it goes into SetBack.
Software Features of the ADS200: The ADS200 has all the features of previous PACE models, and is NOT a stripped-down version of previous soldering systems. We’re just not making the amount of margin that we were on previous models!
Does the ADS200 come with Tips? No. Like most Hakko and Metcal products, we do not include tips. I know it’s inconvenient, but adding a tip adds $10 to the list price, and this is a price sensitive market so we wanted to make the list price as low as we could. Also, we have found that it’s best to have the customer decide exactly which tips he/she wants, as opposed to arbitrarily adding a tip that they won’t use. I know this will probably cause some consternation among EEVbloggers here, but sticker shock for soldering stations is a very real issue for us, so we want to keep the price as low as is possible.
AccuDrive Vs. IntelliHeat: AccuDrive is our new, highly accurate and more powerful temperature control system. labjr was closer to the truth when he said the “increased the wattage of the system to 120w maximum output, they had to use a different system of tips with heating elements of lower resistance.” To make a long story short, we were forced to change to AccuDrive as it allows us up to 120 Watts of power (improving performance) and uses a much more accurate (hence “AccuDrive”, about 5°F accuracy compared to IntelliHeat’s 12-15°F accuracy) temperature sensors. Unfortunately, our venerable Engineers could not come up with a way to make AccuDrive compatible with previous models. OMG another PACE connector? Yep (sorry).
Is ADS200 designed for the hobbyist? Not really, but we know the price point will be attractive to the hobbyist, more so than previous models. Dyaxxis mentioned his theory that AccuDrive “reduced the possible complexity costs associated with IntelliHeat” but this is not the case … the ADS200 has about 85% parts commonality with the previous WJS 100 and ST 50 units, but actually ends up costing PACE more! The difference is that management would like to sell more stations and make more of the money on Tips and consumables rather than make higher dollars on the front-end sale. Make sense?
To download a copy of our ADS200 Brochure go to https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_6pg_Brochure_FINAL.pdf. (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_6pg_Brochure_FINAL.pdf.) If you'd like to view our ADS200 YouTube video, go to www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk). Also, you might want to take a look at the ADS200 Quick Start Manual, which will give you an idea as to what to expect when you open the box: www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_QuickStart_Manual_3-Mar-2018.pdf (http://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_QuickStart_Manual_3-Mar-2018.pdf).
I’d be glad to answer any other questions you have. Please feel free to comment below!
Best,
Aaron from PACE
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Wow, great info. Thanks!
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Available in March should be changed to Not Available in March. ::)
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Hi Aaron,
Welcome! And thanks for wading into the forum here. Very informative reply.
I'm wondering if you have a ballpark estimate how long it takes to heat from cold to full temperature, say with a standard chisel tip?
I'm also wondering how well the built-in software setback works? How long does it take to wake when you remove the iron from the stand? Does it detect a thermal load instantly?
Thanks again, Hopefully we'll see more of your here.
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Hey there labjr,
All Tip Heater Cartridges for the ADS200 take from 3-10 seconds to heat up from cold start, depending on the how massive the tip is. So they are very fast heat-up. A standard chisel tip should only take 4 seconds to heat up. If you're using a SetBack Tool Stand, the tip is already heated to at least 350°F so they only take 1-2 seconds max to reheat.
The built-in Setback works like this: If you have the Setback Timer set for 60 minutes, the system senses that the unit is not in use and starts a clock timer that lowers the temperature after it senses no thermal load or activity for 60 minutes. It will react and reset the timer if it senses more than 10° or 15°F variance. For example, if you touch the sponge it drops the temp significantly and resets the timer to 60 minutes again. If you have a fan or air conditioner blowing directly on the TD-200 Iron, it will never go into SetBack. By the way, I usually set up the internal SetBack to 90 minutes as I don't want the unit to go into the idle mode when I go to lunch. I much prefer the ISB Tool Stand as it goes into SetBack within 15 seconds, saving tip life (especially required for lead-free soldering, which is highly corrosive to iron plating on tips). I'm pretty sure you exit SetBack by pushing the Up or Down scroll keys on the front panel or by turning the unit off and then back on.
The unit detects thermal loads very quickly, but this depends upon the shape and mass of the tip. Generally, lower mass tips detect a load faster than the high-mass tips, but both are still sensing temperature change within 1 second.
Hope this helps,
Aaron
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So heating performance on par with a Metcal - not bad for under half the price.
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It's closest to the performance of a Metcal or Hakko FX951 and even beats them both in many situations. It's also close to the performance of a JBC, but JBC will beat us with some of their larger tips. The trade-off is: do you want to pay $36 a tip and $600 for soldering station, when an ADS200 will perform just as well for 98% of your applications? Well, for $11 and $12 per tip, I think PACE has a much more reasonable deal!
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Well, personally I don't mind the $20-22 a tip when I already have the Metcal, but if I were looking at stations to buy right now.. Let's just say the ADS200 would be very high on my list subject to local stockists. And I'm a hobbyist! (spoilt by performant stations)
So as we haven't had a teardown yet that I know of.. Are these traditional AC heater stations with a big iron-core transformer?
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I've always been rather frugal and try to be resourceful. However, I may wait to see what the price difference is for the ISB stand.
Thanks!
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I'm hoping they price the ADS200 station with ISB Tool Stand at $270 US, but it's not up to me ...
Aaron
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for getting on the board.
I have a question on the tips do you expect to have others available later down the line? If so when?
When the Mini-Tweezers are released will there be a (ISB) tool stand for it? If so that would make the purchasing decision easier for me as I could purchase the Mini-Tweezer and (ISB) Tool stand and then purchase a second station when the ISB kits are available.
Also, if can provide the pin out for the ISB on the station that would be great I might just make something up to get be by until the stands are available.
If not, I can contact Tony in tech support tomorrow.
Thanks,
Dean
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for getting on the board.
I have a question on the tips do you expect to have others available later down the line? If so when?
When the Mini-Tweezers are released will there be a (ISB) tool stand for it? If so that would make the purchasing decision easier for me as I could purchase the Mini-Tweezer and (ISB) Tool stand and then purchase a second station when the ISB kits are available.
Also, if can provide the pin out for the ISB on the station that would be great I might just make something up to get be by until the stands are available.
If not, I can contact Tony in tech support tomorrow.
Thanks,
Dean
I imagine the ISB pinout is the same as the other Pace stations. Maybe Aaron can confirm this. If the difference turns out to be $30, I'll probably wait for it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/)
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Great Info! I just added this to my shortlist
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Status of ADS200 Production: we’re in very limited production of the station right now because of a shortage of key parts, so you probably won’t see high quantities of the ADS200 in the US until early April, and about 3 weeks later for Europe (we ship from our North Carolina factory to our UK office).
I know Canada is just America's hat, but are Canadian orders on the same time-frame as the US? I already donated one of my Hakko 936s and pre-ordered a 200 here in Montreal.
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Ok pulled the trigger on the Pace and 16 tips should be here next week or the 2nd of April.
TEquipment has 30 of them being delivered on the 3/27/18 not sure on the tips but I order enough that I should get at least a few when it ships.
I was going back a forth on this or a Hakko and decide to give Pace a go. The last Pace I had was a ST-45 with a PS-90 Handpiece.
I currently have a JBC Dual station with de-soldering and soldering but I needed another soldering station and just did not want to spend the Money on the JBC don’t get me wrong it’s an excellent system, but I just don’t think the tips stay wet enough.
So, for just shy of $400 I have a new station and 16 tips. :-DD
I will update once I receive the unit…..
Now back to the repairs so I can pay for my new toy if the weekend goes well I should have it paid for before it get here. :-+
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Just a side note this is why it cost so much for JBC.
I ordered some filters for the de-soldering hand piece and I ordered them direct because of the free shipping and the total order was only $27.00. I could not find the filters at any of the dealers and even if they had them it would have cost more for the shipping then the items. :-DD
Check out the tracking info. They Shipped it from SPAIN because the did not have them stock in the US. It’s a consumable how can they not have them :palm: :palm:
LIVONIA, MI, US 03/15/2018 2:48 P.M. Delivered
03/15/2018 8:55 A.M. Out For Delivery Today
03/15/2018 7:30 A.M. Destination Scan
03/15/2018 6:30 A.M. Arrival Scan Romulus, MI, United States 03/15/2018 5:57 A.M. Departure Scan
03/15/2018 5:17 A.M. Arrival Scan Rockford, IL, United States 03/15/2018 3:27 A.M. Departure Scan
Rockford, IL, United States 03/14/2018 11:33 P.M. Arrival Scan
Philadelphia, PA, United States 03/14/2018 10:29 P.M. Departure Scan
03/14/2018 11:00 A.M. Import Scan
03/14/2018 10:32 A.M. Warehouse Scan
03/13/2018 5:52 P.M. Your package was released by the customs agency.
03/13/2018 5:48 P.M. The shipment value is missing from the invoice and is required for clearance. We're working to obtain this information. / Brokerage released the package. It will be processed through a clearing agency before final release to UPS.
Philadelphia, PA, United States 03/13/2018 4:51 P.M. Warehouse Scan
03/13/2018 8:49 A.M. Arrival Scan
03/13/2018 6:59 A.M. The shipment value is missing from the invoice and is required for clearance. We're working to obtain this information.
Koeln, Germany 03/13/2018 6:00 A.M. Departure Scan
03/13/2018 12:31 A.M. Arrival Scan
de Llobreg, Spain 03/12/2018 10:36 P.M. Departure Scan
03/12/2018 10:00 P.M. Arrival Scan
Barcelona, Spain 03/12/2018 9:40 P.M. Departure Scan
03/12/2018 9:19 P.M. Origin Scan
03/12/2018 9:00 P.M. Your package was released by the customs agency.
03/12/2018 2:11 P.M. Your package is being reviewed by the customs agency.
03/12/2018 6:32 P.M. Your package was released by the customs agency.
Spain 03/12/2018 2:02 P.M. Order Processed: Ready for UPS
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Does anyone know if the tip of the iron would be at the same potential as the logic level ground at the ISB port in the back? If so, that would seem to make it simple to trigger the instant setback.
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I have a question on the tips do you expect to have others available later down the line? If so when?
When the Mini-Tweezers are released will there be a (ISB) tool stand for it? If so that would make the purchasing decision easier for me as I could purchase the Mini-Tweezer and (ISB) Tool stand and then purchase a second station when the ISB kits are available.
Also, if can provide the pin out for the ISB on the station that would be great I might just make something up to get be by until the stands are available.
If not, I can contact Tony in tech support tomorrow.
Thanks,
Dean
Hi Dean,
Tip variety will grow as time goes on. The tips are a close match to the original Tip-Heater Cartridges designed for the TD-100 (the Soldering Iron used in the ST-series of stations and WJS 100) except the sensors and heating element wires are different. But the iron-plated tip ends are the same. So we can easily add older style tip geometries if the customer demand is there. For example, if we get a request for one SOIC-16 Removal Tip for the new TD-200 Iron, we can fabricate the tip using the existing iron-plated tip end along with the newer sensor & wire. But we probably won't add a new tip until we see that there is a decent demand for more than one piece or one request - you wouldn't believe the amount of time, paperwork and number of engineering drawings that is generated for a new saleable SKU, despite the fact that we have all the materials!
Concerning the MiniTweezer handpiece, there will be an ISB Tool Stand for the handpiece, but probably not until 3 months after MiniTweez introduction. I know Engineering is working on it, but I have yet to see anything.
I'm pretty sure the pin-out for the ISB connector on the back panel of the ADS200 is the same as our previous models (ST 30, ST 50, ST 70, WJS 100) but they are using a different technique to detect whether a handpiece is in the Tool Stand. You might want to call Tony as he's a lot more technical than I!
Aaron
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I imagine the ISB pinout is the same as the other Pace stations. Maybe Aaron can confirm this. If the difference turns out to be $30, I'll probably wait for it.
Yes, I'm pretty sure the pin-out is the same. I'll check and get back with you.
Aaron
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Does anyone know of the tip of the iron would be at the same potential as the logic level ground at the ISB port in the back? If so, that would seem to make it simple to trigger the instant setback.
Our Engineers decided upon an electromechanical switch on the left side of the Tool Stand holster to trigger the SetBack mode. We've used a capacitance sensor in the past which proved unreliable.
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Does anyone know of the tip of the iron would be at the same potential as the logic level ground at the ISB port in the back? If so, that would seem to make it simple to trigger the instant setback.
Our Engineers decided upon an electromechanical switch on the left side of the Tool Stand holster to trigger the SetBack mode. We've used a capacitance sensor in the past which proved unreliable.
Do you think we could get a picture of the ISB Tool Stand? I would like to see that switch you're talking about. ;D
I fully understand on the tips, but we need to see some bevel tips one of the main reason I almost went with the Hakko.
Here are a few Hakko tip numbers I would like to see for sure. TC-BC1, T15-BC2, TC-BC12
Remember if you don't make them you can't sell them, and most people are not going to wait months for a tip if the job calls for it. :-DD
Plus, you said Pace decided to make less on the station and make it up on the tips. :-+
Like I said earlier I spent almost as much on the tips as I did the station. Different jobs require different tips and I love having a selection on hand even if I only use it a few times at the cost of the new tips I will make my money back on one repair. :-+ :-DD
I also don’t understand the 3-month delay for the ISB after the tweezer are release this is going to cost you sales. :palm: :palm:
Thanks,
Dean
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Do you think we could get a picture of the ISB Tool Stand? I would like to see that switch you're talking about. ;D
The only image I have does not show the switch! But when I get back to the office on Monday (I'm home-officed on Fridays), I can snap a photo of it.
Aaron
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Do you think we could get a picture of the ISB Tool Stand? I would like to see that switch you're talking about. ;D
The only image I have does not show the switch! But when I get back to the office on Monday (I'm home-officed on Fridays), I can snap a photo of it.
Aaron
Excellent I look forward to seeing the picture and thanks for the support makes me feel good to support Pace again sure hope I like the unit. :-DD
Ok so I went a looked at the TD-100 Tips and here are a few of the tips I would like to see.
1126-0637-P1
1126-0625-P1
1126-0628-P1
Thanks again,
Dean
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One other thing who decided to use fractions on the new AccuDrive tips and Decimal on the TD-100 tips?
Sure, makes it a pain to cross the sizes :-- :--
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I fully understand on the tips, but we need to see some bevel tips one of the main reason I almost went with the Hakko.
Here are a few Hakko tip numbers I would like to see for sure. TC-BC1, T15-BC2, TC-BC12
Remember if you don't make them you can't sell them, and most people are not going to wait months for a tip if the job calls for it. :-DD
Plus, you said Pace decided to make less on the station and make it up on the tips. :-+
Like I said earlier I spent almost as much on the tips as I did the station. Different jobs require different tips and I love having a selection on hand even if I only use it a few times at the cost of the new tips I will make my money back on one repair. :-+ :-DD
I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
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I fully understand on the tips, but we need to see some bevel tips one of the main reason I almost went with the Hakko.
Here are a few Hakko tip numbers I would like to see for sure. TC-BC1, T15-BC2, TC-BC12
Remember if you don't make them you can't sell them, and most people are not going to wait months for a tip if the job calls for it. :-DD
Plus, you said Pace decided to make less on the station and make it up on the tips. :-+
Like I said earlier I spent almost as much on the tips as I did the station. Different jobs require different tips and I love having a selection on hand even if I only use it a few times at the cost of the new tips I will make my money back on one repair. :-+ :-DD
I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
I ordered one in both standard and Ultra-Performance :-+ :-+
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I also don’t understand the 3-month delay for the ISB after the tweezer are release this is going to cost you sales. :palm: :palm:
It's a resource issue. We have a limited amount of Engineering talent and one particular Engineer is assigned to the MiniTweez. Traditionally, we do not have the Tip-Life issues on our thermal tweezer products because they are usually not used constantly throughout the day. And since we already have a Tool Stand that fits perfectly on the new MiniTweez, an ISB version is not the highest priority. But it's on the agenda as a "must-have" product, so it will arrive at some point in time.
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One other thing who decided to use fractions on the new AccuDrive tips and Decimal on the TD-100 tips?
Sure, makes it a pain to cross the sizes :-- :--
Ahem. I may have had some influence on that decision ... I told you I was an old fart! :-[
Aaron
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One other thing who decided to use fractions on the new AccuDrive tips and Decimal on the TD-100 tips?
Sure, makes it a pain to cross the sizes :-- :--
Ahem. I may have had some influence on that decision ... I told you I was an old fart! :-[
Aaron
By the way, I forgot to mention that the last 4 characters of the TD-100 part number correspond to the new ADS200 "Blue Series" tip part number. So a MiniWave Tip PN 1124-0032-P1 for the TD-100 Iron are the exact same geometry as the ADS200 MiniWave Tip PN 1130-0032-P1 (the "P1" means package of 1). All the standard sized tips begin with "1130" while the Ultra-Performance versions (the tips that are thicker at the end) begin with "1131" - the 1131 Tips have the same last 4 characters as the WJS "Gold Series Tips. So the ADS200 1/4” Flat Blade (6.35mm) P/N 1131-0037-P1 has the identical shape as the WJS 100's PN 1128-0037-P1. Yep, it's confusing ...
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It's closest to the performance of a Metcal or Hakko FX951 and even beats them both in many situations. It's also close to the performance of a JBC, but JBC will beat us with some of their larger tips. The trade-off is: do you want to pay $36 a tip and $600 for soldering station, when an ADS200 will perform just as well for 98% of your applications? Well, for $11 and $12 per tip, I think PACE has a much more reasonable deal!
It's great to see an official Pace Worldwide rep actively participating here, especially with the friendly clarification of information much more than I originally expected.
I'll openly admit that one of the reasons mentioned in the quote above is why I chose a JBC CD and NASE: tips and hand pieces necessary to complete the asks I need. Most will NOT need what I have to use, but I work with items that are 0201 and smaller, having tight confines, multilayer boards having large thermal/ground planes, high component density with "hybrid technologies", and reworking/repairing within some very tight specifications necessary. Call my statement what you will, but that's just what I must work with.
Honestly, I don't regret that decision, but if I discover the options that Pace will eventually develop for the AccuDrive series will similarly fit those needs, then I'd certainly purchase an AccuDrive without hesitation. And yes... Here's a picture of the Pace stations I still have and will keep indefinitely:
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Here's a picture of the Pace stations I still have and will keep indefinitely:
Ahhh ... a blast from the past! The venerable MBT250, the SMR 25 and the Pik & Paste (I hated that unit - so freakin' loud!). Thanks for your comments!
Aaron
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While on the subject of the venerable PACE tools (and somewhat of a digression from the thread's topic), do you know why PACE discontinued their Pulse-Plating tools? It was over a decade ago, I think. Something about the regulatory issues surrounding toxic liquids?
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While on the subject of the venerable PACE tools (and somewhat of a digression from the thread's topic), do you know why PACE discontinued their Pulse-Plating tools? It was over a decade ago, I think. Something about the regulatory issues surrounding toxic liquids?
It was 2 things. We were having a ton of problems shipping the Electroclean (for cleaning off oxides) and the essential Gold plating solutions. It was especially difficult to ship the Gold Solution which was dissolved in cyanide. It was hit or miss whether we could ship it overseas, sometimes being rejected and coming back weeks after shipment. One of our main Plating customers, the US Navy, determined the solutions were hazardous and required an expensive safety cabinet be used at all times, and key Military specifiers determined it was too much hassle to procure - they cut it from the spec. Shipping prices rose, while sales dropped to practically zero. We finally threw in the towel and discontinued the product in the mid-90's. :'(
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I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough
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I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough
Exactly right! These were designed for drag soldering, which we call "MiniWave" soldering, because it mimics miniature wave soldering. See our Process Guide page and click on "Play Video" for a 30 second demo at:
https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02 (https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02)
The spoon portion of the tip holds more solder, allowing you to install more than one side at a time.
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Since you've been around the business for a while, maybe you can recommend Pace tips which are popular for point-to-point wiring and old-fashioned chassis components, terminal strips etc.? I mostly repair and modify older audio equipment, vacuum tube electronics, some thru-hole PCBs, and a small amount of newer SMD. I'd like to use tips which will enable me to increase productivity, reduce damage to components and do neater work.
I've been using a Weller EC1002 type irons with standard ETA tips for about 25 years. Before that it was pencil irons. You know the kind where you file the tip? :D My dad actually built many ham radios and projects with those irons. I've built a Heathkit or two with them.
One problem I have is that I have to crank up the Weller for many connections. So in the time it takes the iron to recover, the joint tends to overheat, the solder flows down before it solidifies and the joint becomes dry. Then I have to clean up drips. I'm thinking the ability to apply higher power more quickly will actually allow me to solder at lower temperatures.
I know it takes a knack to be good. I've seen equipment that looks like like art work which was built before modern soldering stations.
Thanks,
Larry
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Since you've been around the business for a while, maybe you can recommend Pace tips which are popular for point-to-point wiring and old-fashioned chassis components, terminal strips etc.? I mostly repair and modify older audio equipment, vacuum tube electronics, some thru-hole PCBs, and a small amount of newer SMD. I'd like to use tips which will enable me to increase productivity, reduce damage to components and do neater work.
I've been using a Weller EC1002 type irons with standard ETA tips for about 25 years. Before that it was pencil irons. You know the kind where you file the tip? :D My dad actually built many ham radios and projects with those irons. I've built a Heathkit or two with them.
One problem I have is that I have to crank up the Weller for many connections. So in the time it takes the iron to recover, the joint tends to overheat, the solder flows down before it solidifies and the joint becomes dry. Then I have to clean up drips. I'm thinking the ability to apply higher power more quickly will actually allow me to solder at lower temperatures.
I know it takes a knack to be good. I've seen equipment that looks like like art work which was built before modern soldering stations.
Thanks,
Larry
Hah! Im in your boat... the more i keep looking at this pace the more i feel im being sucked in. Recommended tips for power electronics with minimal oxidizing?
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Is it even possible for Pace tips to oxidize? ;) Don't they have the secret sauce?
I bought my current iron (PACE) and tips about 15 years ago and am still happy with them...
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Is it even possible for Pace tips to oxidize? ;) Don't they have the secret sauce?
I bought my current iron (PACE) and tips about 15 years ago and am still happy with them...
Yeah, leaded solder. I'll use it until there's no alternative.
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Is it even possible for Pace tips to oxidize? ;) Don't they have the secret sauce?
I bought my current iron (PACE) and tips about 15 years ago and am still happy with them...
Yeah, leaded solder. I'll use it until there's no alternative.
Good for home use but I got the short end with wait for it... rhos :--. Meanwhile my ancient weller set is like new that i use lead on with standard cleaning techniques
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I consider lead-free hazardous to my tools.
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I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough
Exactly right! These were designed for drag soldering, which we call "MiniWave" soldering, because it mimics miniature wave soldering. See our Process Guide page and click on "Play Video" for a 30 second demo at:
https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02 (https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02)
The spoon portion of the tip holds more solder, allowing you to install more than one side at a time.
PACE to everyone else translation: Hoof tip. :)
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I consider lead-free hazardous to my tools.
And the flux fumes are nastier
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The only problem I have had was one time the password and other settings became corrupt. There was no information about how to clear it on their site. No 24 hour hot line. So a bit of reverse engineering required to solve it. IMO, this is a design flaw and not to have a documented way to recover it is a fail. It has never happened since and that iron sees a lot of use.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698)
My iron is all original, including the tips. If I buy a brand new one, is it going to be as reliable?
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Aaron,
If I purchase the ADS200 from TEquipment right now with the standard tool stand, will I be able to separately purchase the ISB Tool Stand for a reasonable price at a later time? I was going to buy a Hakko FX951, but this new Pace unit seems like a good choice as well.
**edit** found the part# info on your ADS200 page at the bottom.
"Optional Instant SetBack (ISB) Tool Stand Optionally available as P/N 6019-0089-P1 or standard as part of ADS200 Stations P/N 8007-0579 or P/N 8007-0581"
What would the ballpark price be on the separate stand--just need to see how much more the combined price would be?
Also, can you describe the difference between the Ultra-Performance and Standard tips? In particular in terms of longevity.
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Since there have been a bunch of questions on tip life, I thought it might be a good idea to talk about the things that will help extend the life of ALL your soldering iron tips. Most of these are common-sense soldering practices, but I thought it might be useful to some of the members of this group.
Most soldering iron tips are constructed in the following manner:
- Internal Copper Core: The core of each tip is composed of copper, an excellent heat-transfer material. Unfortunately, solder has a solvent effect on copper and will rapidly dissolve it when exposed to various solder alloys (especially lead-free solder). So it must be protected by another layer of plating.
- Iron Plating: Iron plating is the protective layer electroplated over the surface of the tip, and the thicker the iron plating, the longer the life of the tip. But iron it is a terrible heat transfer medium, and if plated too much, the performance of the tip will be affected. Lead-free optimized tips are usually plated with 5-10 mils of iron plating, and any more iron plating will negatively affect heat transfer - tip will take forever to heat up or will not recover quick enough after soldering. All PACE tips are plated with 7-9 mils of iron.
- Chrome plating: a layer of non-solderable chrome plating is usually to the back portion of the tip, applied to prevent the solder from creeping too far up the tip.
- Tinning: The iron-plated working end of the tip is tinned with pure tin or solder alloy. This coating of solder protects the iron plating.
How does lead-free affect soldering? There is a higher tin content, higher melting points, tighter process window, decreased wetting, longer dwell times, duller solder joints – all these elements can affect tip life. It's been estimated that Tip life can be decreased by up to 2/3 when using lead-free!
Increased Tin Content + Higher Temperatures = Aggressive Corrosion: Lead-free solder is much more corrosive to iron-plating than standard 63/37 tin-lead alloy, especially at elevated temperatures. Higher Sn (tin) content, higher idling temperatures, greater rate of oxidation, and rapid flux degeneration all contribute to lower tip life. The most important thing to remember is the higher the tip temperature, the higher the likelihood of increased plating erosion due to iron leaching.
Oxidation is the enemy of your tip, so use low temperatures: Whether using lead-free or not, the higher the tip temperature, the more the working end of the tip will be oxidized. In practice, use the lowest possible temperature you can to do the job.
Use optimized tip geometries: You should select the shortest and thickest tip that will allow access to the workpiece for highest heat transfer & lowest temperatures. I realize many people prefer fine-point and necked down tips as they improve access to small components and joints. However, a fine-point conical tip severely limits your heat pathway and may force you to use higher temperatures. Copper is more evenly distributed in thicker tips – thus better heat transfer. Better heat flow = lower temperature soldering. Ultra-fine conical tips have a limited heat pathway, less copper at end of tip, heavy iron at end of tip and thus less thermal transfer.
Do not apply pressure or an abrasive scrubing motion: If you are heavy handed in your soldering, you may cause stress/cracking failures in the iron plating. You should use the same pressure as you would writing with a soft #2 pencil. Also, do not scrub the lead of a component as this can lead to a scratch in the iron plating, resulting in a pit which will start the rapid dissolution of copper, eating the core away within hours, and leading to a hollow & ruined tip!
Cover the working end of the tip with solder: this helps add a protective layer of solder (which again prevents oxidation) over the sensitive iron plating.
For leaded solder, use clean, damp sulfur-free sponges: I say damp because a totally drenched sponge will drop the temperature of the tip too radically. Household sponges are also a no-no, as they contain sulfur, which will contaminate your tips! Also you might consider using distilled water as tap water contains additives & minerals that can damage a tip’s plating/reduce its life.
For Lead-Free solder, use Brass Wool: Lead-free solder uses some nastier fluxes which can be tough to remove using a standard sponge, so you may wish to use the “brass wool” cleaner (looks like a Brillo-Pad). It’s a little more abrasive, but in many cases necessary for proper cleaning of lead-free tips. If necessary, restore detinned tips with “Tip-Tinner” (that chemical you dip your tips in when all else fails) - yes, it's abrasive, but better than a detinned or dewetted tip that cannot be used..
Turn off the iron: When not in use, turn it off!
Use a soldering iron system with “Setback” or “Auto-Off” feature: As we’ve been discussing in this thread, use an iron that automatically “sets-back” the temperature to below solder melt (under 350°F/177°C). Setting the temperature below solder-melt is one of the best ways to eliminate oxidation of the tip, and thus extend tip life.
Do any of you have any other suggestions?
Aaron
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Do any of you have any other suggestions?
Additionally, I tend to use a "less-aggressive" tip cleaning technique when using the "brass-wool" and/or moderately moist tip cleaning sponge. I've never had the need with SAC 305 to aggressively stab the tip into brass wool or to mash the tip down on the wet sponge. I simply "sweep" the excess solder and/or contamination off of the tip, which is almost always sufficient for a clean tip to prevent major contamination.
Just my 2 cents from experience.
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Since you've been around the business for a while, maybe you can recommend Pace tips which are popular for point-to-point wiring and old-fashioned chassis components, terminal strips etc.? I mostly repair and modify older audio equipment, vacuum tube electronics, some thru-hole PCBs, and a small amount of newer SMD. I'd like to use tips which will enable me to increase productivity, reduce damage to components and do neater work.
Thanks,
Larry
Sorry for delay in answering your question, I've been away for the weekend! If sales history is any indication, some of the more popular style tips for the ADS200 are likely to be:
- 13/64” Extra Large Chisel (5.15mm) P/N 1130-0010-P1
- 1/32” 30° Chisel (0.80mm) P/N 1130-0012-P1
- 3/32” 30° Chisel (2.38mm) P/N 1130-0013-P1
- 1/16” 30° Chisel (1.59mm) P/N 1130-0019-P1
The above tip styles are pretty popular so you might want to try them out.
Aaron
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Do not run fans or equipment with fans near the iron stand.
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Hah! Im in your boat... the more i keep looking at this pace the more i feel im being sucked in. Recommended tips for power electronics with minimal oxidizing?
If you're working with heat-sinking power electronics, I recommend our Ultra-Performance Tips, which are designed with optimized tip geometries and increased thermal pipeline to deliver the maximum heat throughput. They are thicker and shorter tips, designed to transfer heat. Go to www.paceworldwide.com/ads200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/ads200) and click on the "Tip-Heater Cartridges" link at the top of the page.
Aaron
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What would the ballpark price be on the separate stand--just need to see how much more the combined price would be?
I'm hoping the combined price of the ADS200 with SetBack Tool Stand will be $270, but it could go up or down depending on a meeting we are having this Thursday. We'll be pinning down the price of the SetBack Tool Stand and combine ADS200 with SetBack on this date, so I'll give an update later this week.
Also, can you describe the difference between the Ultra-Performance and Standard tips? In particular in terms of longevity.
The Standard Tips are based on the most popular Tip Heater Cartridge geometries used on our previous IntelliHeat controlled soldering stations (e.g. ST-50, ST-30, ST-70), while the Ultra-Performance Tips are based on the thicker and higher thermal mass WJS 100 tips. See the attached image. The Standard Tips are thinner (and cost a bit less) than the thicker Ultra-Performance Tips.
Concerning tip life, the Ultra-Performance Tips are likely to last longer, especially when compared to the fine-point tips, because the protective iron plating is much more consistent all the way around since the tip end is physically larger. Of course, this will depend upon your using the "common sense soldering practices" that I discussed below.
Aaron
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Hi Aaron, so it will be possible to buy one ADS200 with Set-back stand in UK by the end of April? What is the best option to buy: directly from Pace or you can recommended an UK distributors which will have them on stock?
Another hobby use... :)
l
Question: if I decide to buy mini-tweezers can I operate them at the same time with soldering iron without disconnecting it? Or do I need a second base unit for this ?
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Hah! Im in your boat... the more i keep looking at this pace the more i feel im being sucked in. Recommended tips for power electronics with minimal oxidizing?
If you're working with heat-sinking power electronics, I recommend our Ultra-Performance Tips, which are designed with optimized tip geometries and increased thermal pipeline to deliver the maximum heat throughput. They are thicker and shorter tips, designed to transfer heat. Go to www.paceworldwide.com/ads200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/ads200) and click on the "Tip-Heater Cartridges" link at the top of the page.
Aaron
Yup! After looking it over I bought one last night and an assortment of tips suited to that and some others.. really like the J hook/bent style ones too for those qfns
Now just need a stand, hopefully its not to much more on its own vs packaged! Or us forum users can get a deal ;p
Think I was at 280 out the door. The tip price is fantastic... Probly get more once it comes in mid April or so.
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Hi Aaron, so it will be possible to buy one ADS200 with Set-back stand in UK by the end of April? What is the best option to buy: directly from Pace or you can recommended an UK distributors which will have them on stock?
Another hobby use... :)
l
Question: if I decide to buy mini-tweezers can I operate them at the same time with soldering iron without disconnecting it? Or do I need a second base unit for this ?
The standard ADS unit will be available by the end of April, but I doubt the ADS200 with SetBack Tool Stand will be available until mid-May. Mainly because the parts for the Tool Stand all arrive during the 3rd week of April, meaning it will take time to assemble, then it takes 3 weeks to ship to UK (we ship all stock to PACE Europe via slow boat to China ...).
Concerning the best option to buy, you can equally purchase direct through our website or through a distributor. In the UK, it may be faster to buy direct, but I'd recommend you buy through the local distributor if you are located outside of the UK in Europe. If you are already buying through a PACE authorized distributor, go with that distributor. For European Distributors, see the link below:
www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/europe (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/europe)
Aaron
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Aaron, thanks for providing so much useful information. Some advice I'd never think of.
Since I do service work I'd expect to go through tips faster than is typical for a production environment with new assembly. Removing old components tends to be rough tips. Sometimes the solder joint can be 40-50 years old or more and have no idea what type of solder was used back in the day. Perhaps I should use separate tips for those jobs.
I use more than one type of solder too but always leaded types. I tend to use 60/40 on repair work or especially older stuff because I think it mixes well with older solder, as opposed to eutectic types. I used to buy Radio Shack solder because I liked the flow. I use Kester 63/37 for new clean joints and connectors microphone/ guitar cables etc. I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic solder for some higher end work.
Do you know if it's bad for tips to mix solder types? Are some fluxes more corrosive to the tips? Have you run into situations where certain brands of solder are more corrosive to tips?
Sorry to ask so many questions.
Thanks
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Question: if I decide to buy mini-tweezers can I operate them at the same time with soldering iron without disconnecting it? Or do I need a second base unit for this ?
Oops, I missed this question. Since the ADS200 is a single output system, you would have to unplug the TD-200 Iron and then plug in the MiniTweez. The unit and handpieces are "hot-swappable", meaning you can unplug the Iron and plug in the MiniTweez without having to turn off the unit. The ADS200 has been designed to stack so you could dedicate one unit to soldering and the other to MiniTweez if you wanted, but it will cost you more money, of course. See photo below.
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Aaron, thanks for providing so much useful information. Some advice I'd never think of.
Since I do service work I'd expect to go through tips faster than is typical for a production environment with new assembly. Removing old components tends to be rough tips. Sometimes the solder joint can be 40-50 years old or more and have no idea what type of solder was used back in the day. Perhaps I should use separate tips for those jobs.
I use more than one type of solder too but always leaded types. I tend to use 60/40 on repair work or especially older stuff because I think it mixes well with older solder, as opposed to eutectic types. I used to buy Radio Shack solder because I liked the flow. I use Kester 63/37 for new clean joints and connectors microphone/ guitar cables etc. I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic solder for some higher end work.
Do you know if it's bad for tips to mix solder types? Are some fluxes more corrosive to the tips? Have you run into situations where certain brands of solder are more corrosive to tips?
Sorry to ask so many questions.
Thanks
I use separate tips, the main one you dont want to cross is rhos vs lead... i still have like new tips for my weller due to much to what he spelled out earlier. Also avoid being abrasive with your tips, that goes for both making the joint and cleaning afterwards.
You might also consider using a different tip for removal of junk parts where you can be more abrasive in the removal process and not worry so much about destroying your good tip
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I use more than one type of solder too but always leaded types. I tend to use 60/40 on repair work or especially older stuff because I think it mixes well with older solder, as opposed to eutectic types. I used to buy Radio Shack solder because I liked the flow. I use Kester 63/37 for new clean joints and connectors microphone/ guitar cables etc. I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic solder for some higher end work.
Do you know if it's bad for tips to mix solder types? Are some fluxes more corrosive to the tips? Have you run into situations where certain brands of solder are more corrosive to tips?
Sorry to ask so many questions.
Thanks
No problem on the questions! I think it's technically ok to mix solder types, as long as the end result is already a tin-lead alloy. Eutectic solder (63/37) has no plastic range, meaning it changes from solid to liquidus at exactly 183°C/361°F. 60/40 solder starts to melt at 183°C/361°F but is not fully liquidus until it reaches 188°C (370°F) and therefore has a plastic range of 5°C/9°F. This means that you are more likely to have a disturbed joint if you move the component or lead while it is still solidifying. So with eutectic (63/37) solder it melts within 1°F/C and you are less likely to have bad solder joints. So at its worst, you might be changing the melting point or plastic range a bit by mixing the 2 alloys together, but if you are a decent solderer, it doesn't matter.
Now let's look at the opposite situation: mixing leaded with lead-free solder - this is a definite no-no! It's of much more concern as you have just violated the pcb's RoHS status ... it is no longer complient with RoHS regulation as it is not lead-free!
Aaron
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I use separate tips, the main one you dont want to cross is rhos vs lead... i still have like new tips for my weller due to much to what he spelled out earlier. Also avoid being abrasive with your tips, that goes for both making the joint and cleaning afterwards.
You might also consider using a different tip for removal of junk parts where you can be more abrasive in the removal process and not worry so much about destroying your good tip
Sometimes I tend pry component leads with the tip of the iron. Especially if I'm getting frustrated with a difficult job. The Weller tips have held up pretty well considering. If Pace tips last as long I'll be happy. They're reasonably priced. BTW, I've always used a wet sponge to clean the tip. I probably should change my bad habits. It may be difficult though because something about cleaning without a liquid bothers me. I have a bit of OCD. Always washing my hands. I worked with an engineer who used to clean tip of the iron on the front of his jeans.
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Something I forgot to ask, does the same bracket 1321-0609-P1 also fit this?
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Something I forgot to ask, does the same bracket 1321-0609-P1 also fit this?
Yes, the Optional Mounting Bracket PN 1321-0609-P1 will work with the ADS200.
Aaron
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I ordered one from TEquipment to give a try to! I've been using a WES51 which takes it time flowing the pads of some SMA diodes a 700 deg F, so I'm curious to see how the Pace does with those. I am also wanting smaller/more precise tips for 0.5mm pitch stuff and perhaps to try my luck at some drag soldering. I like the idea of an aluminum iron - it looks nice and compact.
What is special about the 1130-0050-P1 tip (it says it is special!)?
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Your stations are out of my budget, unfortunately. It sure looks like a good station though!
When you design and test soldering tips, which solder is being used?
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When you design and test soldering tips, which solder is being used?
IMHO, if they make mil-spec products for NASA, they're sure to test with all solder compositions.
(https://s31.postimg.org/ngl0salxn/Pace_at_NASA.jpg)
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I ordered one from TEquipment to give a try to! I've been using a WES51 which takes it time flowing the pads of some SMA diodes a 700 deg F, so I'm curious to see how the Pace does with those. I am also wanting smaller/more precise tips for 0.5mm pitch stuff and perhaps to try my luck at some drag soldering. I like the idea of an aluminum iron - it looks nice and compact.
What is special about the 1130-0050-P1 tip (it says it is special!)?
It's a special version of our 1/128” Conical (0.20mm) 1130-0036-P1 Tip. We slightly beveled the ends of the extremely fine point end of the 0036 tip (generally used for micro-soldering and 0201/0402 soldering), so that it would transfer more heat. See image attached.
Aaron
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When you design and test soldering tips, which solder is being used?
All of our tips are designed to work with lead-free solder, SAC 305 in particular. All tips are plated with a protective coating of iron from 7-9mils thick, which are the minimum/maximum thickness of iron plating you want for lead-free applications. If there is too little iron plating (e.g. 4-5 mils), the tips will not last long as lead-free solder is aggressively corrosive at any temperature over solder melt. In general, the higher the tin content, the more destructive to the protective iron plating. If there is too much iron plating (11+mils), the tip will take much longer to heat up and will not respond quickly. Note that when tips are designed for lead-free use, the tips work fabulously with leaded solder and last much longer.
Aaron
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Is the full user guide available yet? I saw a link to it in the quick start, but it doesn't work.
Also, is there a minimum temp for the min-max temp range AND/OR the 3 user settings?
I don't often leave an iron on, but I figured since I was not getting the base that can sleep that I'd just change the temp manually using that 3 presets. I could just set one of the presets to a low number like 300 deg F, etc.
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Is the full user guide available yet? I saw a link to it in the quick start, but it doesn't work.
Also, is there a minimum temp for the min-max temp range AND/OR the 3 user settings?
I don't often leave an iron on, but I figured since I was not getting the base that can sleep that I'd just change the temp manually using that 3 presets. I could just set one of the presets to a low number like 300 deg F, etc.
Hey, that's an outstanding idea about pre-setting a lower temperature! Temperature range is 193-454°C (380-850°F) -- the unit comes with a default setting of 500°-800°F but this range can be changed. All Pre-Set temperatures can be changed by going into a Program Mode, so yes, you could program a pre-set for 380°F or 193°C. Not optimum for an idling temperature (better if it were a bit lower), but definitely adequate!
The full Operations Manual is being worked on as we speak and should be online by early next week.
Great suggestion on the Pre-Set!
Aaron
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Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions. No reason not to have that flexibility, right?
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Also - another question. I noticed in the video there was a clip device used for changing tips to keep from burning your hands, etc. Is that included with the ADS200? I saw in some videos that you use to use a flexible heat pad it looked like.
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Also - another question. I noticed in the video there was a clip device used for changing tips to keep from burning your hands, etc. Is that included with the ADS200? I saw in some videos that you use to use a flexible heat pad it looked like.
Yes, the Tip Tool comes with the ADS200, and also includes the Silicone Pad. I much prefer the Tip Tool (it's safer and faster when changing tips) - and cringe when I see someone using that Pad! The Pad attaches to the cord, but it weighs it down. The Tip Tool stores easily in the front of the Tool Stand. With the Tip Tool, you can easily change a hot tip within 2 seconds. See attached image.
Aaron
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Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions. No reason not to have that flexibility, right?
I will make the suggestion!
Aaron
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I don't imagine the firmware is user upgradable, is it?
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I don't imagine the firmware is user upgradable, is it?
No it's not normally user-upgradeable since we have to reprogram a component then change it out.
Aaron
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Is the full user guide available yet? I saw a link to it in the quick start, but it doesn't work.
Also, is there a minimum temp for the min-max temp range AND/OR the 3 user settings?
I don't often leave an iron on, but I figured since I was not getting the base that can sleep that I'd just change the temp manually using that 3 presets. I could just set one of the presets to a low number like 300 deg F, etc.
Hey, that's an outstanding idea about pre-setting a lower temperature! Temperature range is 193-454°C (380-850°F) -- the unit comes with a default setting of 500°-800°F but this range can be changed. All Pre-Set temperatures can be changed by going into a Program Mode, so yes, you could program a pre-set for 380°F or 193°C. Not optimum for an idling temperature (better if it were a bit lower), but definitely adequate!
The full Operations Manual is being worked on as we speak and should be online by early next week.
Great suggestion on the Pre-Set!
Aaron
This is exactly what i am planning to do with mine till the isb stand is ready so i can push and go.. just curious.. why 380 minimum?
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Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions. No reason not to have that flexibility, right?
Hey alank2!
I made the suggestion for lower minimum temperature and Management loved it! Since we are in the process of tweaking the software, the decision has been made to change the low temperature limit to 350°F/177°C. It will be implemented within the next few weeks. The first generation units will flash firmware "1.1" when you turn on the power, while the updated firmware will flash "1.2". I'm shocked we made that decision so quickly, but it was a great suggestion! You get a free PACE mug and polo shirt --- send your address info to acaplan (AT) paceworldwide (DOT) com and I'll ship them out!
Thanks again,
Aaron
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Hi Aaron,
Did you ever get a detailed picture of the ISB stand?
Dean
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Thank you Aaron; email incoming!
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Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions. No reason not to have that flexibility, right?
Hey alank2!
I made the suggestion for lower minimum temperature and Management loved it! Since we are in the process of tweaking the software, the decision has been made to change the low temperature limit to 350°F/177°C. It will be implemented within the next few weeks. The first generation units will flash firmware "1.1" when you turn on the power, while the updated firmware will flash "1.2". I'm shocked we made that decision so quickly, but it was a great suggestion! You get a free PACE mug and polo shirt --- send your address info to acaplan (AT) paceworldwide (DOT) com and I'll ship them out!
Thanks again,
Aaron
So does that mean we have to send the unit in to have the flash updated?
My Unit ships to me tomorrow and I should have it on the 2nd or 3rd of April.
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So does that mean we have to send the unit in to have the flash updated?
My Unit ships to me tomorrow and I should have it on the 2nd or 3rd of April.
I think so, but the Engineer involved left 1/2 hour ago so I won't know until tomorrow. It's possible it's just an EPROM that can be shipped out and snapped into a socket, but I'm not sure. I am located in PACE Engineering and Training Center in Elkridge Maryland, but the ADS200 factory is located in North Carolina, so all the firmware upgrade work is done there. I'll get back to you soon.
Aaron
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Very nice to see PACE taking feedback seriously :-+
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Very nice to see PACE taking feedback seriously :-+
It usually not this easy, but the timing was absolutely perfect!
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Very nice to see PACE taking feedback seriously :-+
It usually not this easy, but the timing was absolutely perfect!
That's awesome! Imagine if the government ran that smoothly?
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Hi Aaron,
Did you ever get a detailed picture of the ISB stand?
Dean
Oh crap, I totally forgot! See the attached photo of the prototype. Sorry Dean.
Aaron
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Hi Aaron,
Did you ever get a detailed picture of the ISB stand?
Dean
Oh crap, I totally forgot! See the attached photo of the prototype. Sorry Dean.
Aaron
Dean,
Here is how the ISB Tool Stand plugs into the back of the ADS unit (see attached image). And here's how the ISB works: the handpiece pushes a micro-switch on the left side of the cubby/holster when it is put in the tool stand -> switch connects its output to system ground -> the microprocessor picks up the change of switch’s output then starts the ISB timing control.
Aaron
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for the ISB stand pictures.
Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?
I will be receiving my unit next week and several of the tips I order will not be shipped until the end of April now I read about the firmware changes?
I would like to know what other changes are planned for the updated firmware and if it’s not field Flashable what’s the process going to be to get the first gen units updated?
I have a EEPROM programmer so if that’s an option I would like to get the bin file, so I can flash my own unit.
Once I get the unit I will have a look at the insides to see if flashing is possible.
Thanks,
Dean
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for the ISB stand pictures.
Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?
I will be receiving my unit next week and several of the tips I order will not be shipped until the end of April now I read about the firmware changes?
I would like to know what other changes are planned for the updated firmware and if it’s not field Flashable what’s the process going to be to get the first gen units updated?
I have a EEPROM programmer so if that’s an option I would like to get the bin file, so I can flash my own unit.
Once I get the unit I will have a look at the insides to see if flashing is possible.
Thanks,
Dean
Dean,
All good comments. We have scheduled a meeting involving the updated firmware for next week. While I can't answer all your questions right away, let me just say that we will make it right for you. If I have to, I'll send a brand new, upgraded unit out to you myself! I'll be back in touch.
Aaron
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Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?
I didn't get that impression at all. An idea was had and they said they could implement it. win win. Someone wouldn't even need a newer version of firmware unless they wanted that specific change.
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Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?
I didn't get that impression at all. An idea was had and they said they could implement it. win win. Someone wouldn't even need a newer version of firmware unless they wanted that specific change.
I dont think so either. Although it may have cost them an ISB sale :P If i can manually push a button and drop to the isb temp and then just push it again when i want normal that isnt so bad especially considering its ramp up timing be so short.
I'm just jelly i didnt post about it lol.. i falsely assumed it could be set that low with a program key and went on my way considering the baked in isb function
So.. mine is not suppose to ship from tequiement till... 4/20 ;p I'd love a new eeprom chip as well if possible or a drop shipped unit with the new firmware? That is unless that batch has it already done!
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So.. mine is not suppose to ship from tequiement till... 4/20 ;p I'd love a new eeprom chip as well if possible or a drop shipped unit with the new firmware? That is unless that batch has it already done!
About 200 demo units were produced and shipped to our Reps, Distributors and Sales Agents all over the world. And an additional 100 units were shipped to distributors for stock. I'm not exactly sure who received these, but if you are receiving this within the next week, you probably have the original firmware 1.1. Judging from the Apr 20th date Tequipment gave you, they must not have stock yet, so it's likely you are getting the newer version from Tequipment.
Note that I'm almost certain that it will be a simple EPROM chip that can be shipped to you, so if you receive the older firmware, it's not a problem. I'll confirm this tomorrow.
Aaron
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Aaron - looks like tequipment has few in stock. any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?
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any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?
There is no way - I had the idea yesterday - it is likely they haven't even changed the firmware yet. Aaron said management agreed to the change yesterday.
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any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?
There is no way - I had the idea yesterday - it is likely they haven't even changed the firmware yet. Aaron said management agreed to the change yesterday.
That and they are more or less taking pre orders.. I ordered mine a few days ago and its ship out date wont be till 4/20. So.. as Aaron said.. most likely a 2nd batch that should hopefully have it. If not, im sure they can easily do either a eeprom swap or a cross ship to swap the whole unit if need be and its something you really want.
I really like the idea of manual idling to just under the melt point so it solidifies and reduces the wearing on the plating which makes the tips last even longer.. that was why i was surprised to see 380 and wondered why and glad they are changing it. It's not exactly a hobby level unit where you would have to explain that over and over on tech support if set lower so not much exposure or if someone did and abused the tip.. well pace gets to sell another tip :P
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I see no urgent firmware requirement. Users would then over-use the front panel to select a pseudo-setback temp (leaving only 2 valid presets). Economy-minded minimalist's can drum-up an external set-back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/) without voiding a warranty, and operating an up-scale soldering station might imply our ability to create, right?
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Aaron - looks like tequipment has few in stock. any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?
They're definitely not the latest firmware (Version 1.2) at Tequipment. It will take at least until next week to update the code, then another week to get the EPROMs changed out.
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TEquipment has shipped one tip and the station - I should have it Tuesday to play with!
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I see no urgent firmware requirement. Users would then over-use the front panel to select a pseudo-setback temp (leaving only 2 valid presets). Economy-minded minimalist's can drum-up an external set-back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/) without voiding a warranty, and operating an up-scale soldering station might imply our ability to create, right?
Potato patato.. only thing i can think of off hand that might be an issue metallurgicly would be if someone rapid cycled the transition states a lot but who in their right mind is going to do that? As long as one of their initial set points didnt go under 380 that would avoid most folk off hand doing it unless someone went out of their way to drop under and going into program mode.
Other wise its a programmable preset.. leave the users to set what they want and use the tool as best for them :P
Edit: Actually I just had another idea that could even counter that.. the firmware is obviously update-able by them.. they could throw a rule in if someone drops down to that low preset, the cool down time doesnt start till the same time as the isb or what is safe to block rapid cycling
Edit 2: Another might be to do the rule but ramp down fast and then slow down/stop at the former 380.. , hold till a set timer is cleared then go down to 350... and really dont need the rules to work unless someone has already lowered it down once to 350 then went back up to say 650 for a quick joint and dropped back down again
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It should be pretty easy to devise a mechanism for the setback function. The setback input only needs to be grounded to activate.
If the barrel of the tip cartridge is at system ground then could possibly be as simple as a single conductor wire to the stand from the switch input, with a contact which touches the cartridge when it's in the stand.
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It should be pretty easy to devise a mechanism for the setback function. The setback input only needs to be grounded to activate.
If the barrel of the tip cartridge is at system ground then could possibly be as simple as a single conductor wire to the stand from the switch input, with a contact which touches the cartridge when it's in the stand.
I've used IR sensors before to do this or a nice mechanical switch.. if you get a decent sensor its about as reliable as the mech
I'll most likely end up modding my standard stand with something.. if i do i havent decided if something basic or go for flair
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It should be pretty easy to devise a mechanism for the setback function. The setback input only needs to be grounded to activate.
If the barrel of the tip cartridge is at system ground then could possibly be as simple as a single conductor wire to the stand from the switch input, with a contact which touches the cartridge when it's in the stand.
I've used IR sensors before to do this or a nice mechanical switch.. if you get a decent sensor its about as reliable as the mech
I'll most likely end up modding my standard stand with something.. if i do i havent decided if something basic or go for flair
I was thinking an IR sensor complicates things. And you may not even need a switch.
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Talk about a hype train ;)
Been waiting for a high quality robust but affordable station for years.
So finally a decent option in the $200 bracket with real buttons plus a switch on the front!
I caved in, just ordered two stations with 12 of my favorite tips.
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Talk about a hype train ;)
Been waiting for a high quality robust but affordable station for years.
So finally a decent option in the $200 bracket with real buttons plus a switch on the front!
I caved in, just ordered two stations with 12 of my favorite tips.
Nice! What tips did you get?
These are all the ones i got for myself
Pace ADS200 8007-0578
ADS200 AccuDrive, 120 VAC with Standard Tool Stand
Pace 1321-0609-P1
KIT, Mounting Bracket
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Pace 1131-0051-P1
1/8" 30 Degree Chisel (3.18mm)
Pace 1131-0032-P1
MiniWave (3.05mm)
Pace 1131-0003-P1
1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30 Degree (0.40mm)
Pace 1130-0012-P1
1/32" 30 Degree Chisel (0.80mm)
Pace 1130-0016-P1
3/64" 30 Degree Bent Chisel (1.20mm)
Pace 1131-0001-P1
1/32" Conical Sharp Ext. (0.80mm)
Pace 1131-0010-P1
13/64" Chisel (5.15mm)
Pace 1131-0057-P1
5/16" Chisel (7.95mm)
Pace 1131-0037-P1
1/4" Knife Blade (6.35mm)
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I may go for the mounting bracket later but I've got something in mind when my rearrange my bench. I ordered the below tips. Few chisels, drag tips, pointy ones, brute force tips. One of the stations may be used for micro tweezers later.
P/N 1130-0012-P1 1/32" 30° Chisel (0.80mm)
P/N 1130-0013-P1 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm)
P/N 1130-0019-P1 1/16" 30° Chisel (1.59mm)
P/N 1130-0032-P1 MiniWave (3.05mm)
P/N 1130-0033-P1 Angled MiniWave (3.05mm)
P/N 1130-0035-P1 Angled MiniWave (2.11mm)
P/N 1130-0003-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30° (0.40mm)
P/N 1130-0050-P1 1/128" Conical, Special (0.20mm)
P/N 1130-0037-P1 1/4" Flat Blade (6.35mm)
P/N 1131-0010-P1 13/64" Chisel (5.15mm)
P/N 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm)
P/N 1131-0057-P1 5/16" Chisel (7.95mm)
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I might get a 2nd station if they bundle the tweezers with it later down the road.. almost did the angled miniwaves but figured i'd try out their regular miniwave first and give that a go
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I might get a 2nd station if they bundle the tweezers with it later down the road.. almost did the angled miniwaves but figured i'd try out their regular miniwave first and give that a go
Yeah I could have picked up a few more, but it's not a huge deal to order a few extras later. I'm sure someone here eventually will buy the whole set and show it off like those massive Wiha sets. Wait a sec didn't Dave do that? ;D
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I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough
Exactly right! These were designed for drag soldering, which we call "MiniWave" soldering, because it mimics miniature wave soldering. See our Process Guide page and click on "Play Video" for a 30 second demo at:
https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02 (https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02)
The spoon portion of the tip holds more solder, allowing you to install more than one side at a time.
PACE to everyone else translation: Hoof tip. :)
Everyone except Ersa, which calls them PowerWell. :palm:
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Well it doesn’t look like I will have my unit and several tips until 4/5/2018 it was shipped on 3/29/2018
I will update the group once I received it and put if through server repairs I have.
I Hope everyone has a Happy Easter! :-+
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Looking forward to reading the user reviews as people receive their units. Can always allocate a bigger budget for quality tools ;)
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Looking forward to reading the user reviews as people receive their units. Can always allocate a bigger budget for quality tools ;)
They have sold a few on tequipment.net that plus the 6% EEVblog discount there if you can get it would be sweet, 17 stations left at the time of writing this and going low stock on certain tips.
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I plan on getting a new station. I'll wait for the new firmware. Also waiting to see what the price of the ISB stand will be. And I gotta figure out which tips I want. All these decisions. :-//
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@PACE-Worldwide
Aaron,
I have a question.. How would you compare new ADS200 to existing WJS100 station??
They seem very similar to me...
Thanks!!
Best regards,
Sinisa
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Hello Aaron,
This most likely is too early to ask but I'm curious as to what extent AccuDrive technology will be applied to future Pace stations/handpieces? As already mentioned there will be AccuDrive versions of the ST-50, TD-100, and MT-100, but will there be AccuDrive versions of say the ST-100 and/or MBT 350?
Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:
https://streamable.com/97vzi
Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
EDIT: Issue resolved thanks to post #192
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Hello Aaron,
This most likely is too early to ask but I'm curious as to what extent AccuDrive technology will be applied to future Pace stations/handpieces? As already mentioned there will be AccuDrive versions of the ST-50, TD-100, and MT-100, but will there be AccuDrive versions of say the ST-100 and/or MBT 350?
Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:
https://streamable.com/97vzi
Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Welcome to EEVblog. FWiW, that is the oddest 1st posting I've ever seen here on the forum.. :-// Nice equipment but it looks like your seller lost the original knob or the inside insulator clip and didn't include that info on the ebay listing.. Why wouldn't you just take a picture and send it into support@paceworldwide.com?
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Looking forward to reading the user reviews as people receive their units. Can always allocate a bigger budget for quality tools ;)
They have sold a few on tequipment.net that plus the 6% EEVblog discount there if you can get it would be sweet, 17 stations left at the time of writing this and going low stock on certain tips.
you totally can ;)
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I got a very generous gift package from Pace today - thank you Aaron. You guys are super!! Really looking forward to getting the station from TEquipment on Tuesday.
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Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
That knob has a cap. Pop the cap, there is a screw underneath it to tighten the mandrel to the pot..
Regards,
Sinisa
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Hello Aaron,
This most likely is too early to ask but I'm curious as to what extent AccuDrive technology will be applied to future Pace stations/handpieces? As already mentioned there will be AccuDrive versions of the ST-50, TD-100, and MT-100, but will there be AccuDrive versions of say the ST-100 and/or MBT 350?
Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:
https://streamable.com/97vzi
Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Welcome to EEVblog. FWiW, that is the oddest 1st posting I've ever seen here on the forum.. :-// Nice equipment but it looks like your seller lost the original knob or the inside insulator clip and didn't include that info on the ebay listing.. Why wouldn't you just take a picture and send it into support@paceworldwide.com?
Thank you for the welcome! I've been a lurker of these forums for several years actually and if it weren't for these forums I would most likely be stuck with one of those Chinese 4-in-1 soldering stations from Amazon :phew:. Initially I thought Aoyue was top of the line soldering equipment :-DD but after plenty of google research I learned better with Pace being talked about in these forums :-+. I got my MBT 350 for such a steal because it was being sold for "Parts/As Is" and it wouldn't even turn on. Turns out I just had to replace the fuse and it was good to go ;D. My MBT 350 has treated me very well and the only time I ever have an issue with it is when the TD-100 becomes almost unbearably hot when I have to crank up the temperature while working on large ground planes. This makes the ADS200 so very appealing. As for contacting Pace support, I planned on doing that eventually but I wasn't in a hurry since I don't even have a Thermojet handpiece. I figured I'd just throw in my question here since a Pace representative was actively replying to posts.
Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:
Nice demonstration. Can you manipulate it fine without the knob? That almost looks like a very thin shim would fix that. Have you tried a thin piece of tape on the shaft and sliding the knob gently back on?
I'll leave it up to Aaron if he has expert opinion.
I wasn't able to turn it without the knob although I tried only with my fingers. I'm sure there was a better alternative to that. I do however appreciate the suggestion!
Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
That knob has a cap. Pop the cap, there is a screw underneath it to tighten the mandrel to the pot..
Regards,
Sinisa
Thank you very much Sinisa! I had no idea it was that simple. It now seems to turn exactly as it should :-+. Now I just need to figure out how to come up with $400+ for a TJ-70 and some nozzles... :'(
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Now I just need to figure out how to come up with $400+ for a TJ-70 and some nozzles... :'(
I used to own a TJ-70 over 20 years ago and it was a great tool for the time and then tried a TJ-85 a few years ago. Despite their design differences, I noticed the performance is practically the same, yet the TJ-85 is much cheaper. My business needs transitioned to repairing/reworking technology mostly made today, which quickly limited their uses (which is why I eventually sold them).
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Is the ADS200 manufactured in the US?
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I was hoping the Pace Tip Tool was included, that was great decision. I missed it initially while looking through the quick start manual. We can always swat flies with the Hot Grip pad in Australia so it's not a total waste to include it ;).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=407516;image)
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Is the ADS200 manufactured in the US?
I assume it is, based on the "Made in USA" shown in their brochure, https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Pace_ADS200_-_Brochure.pdf
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Is the ADS200 manufactured in the US?
I assume it is, based on the "Made in USA" shown in their brochure, https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Pace_ADS200_-_Brochure.pdf
North Carolina, Aaron mentioned it a few times
Shock: Yeah that was a nice include... just curious how big is the fly swatter? :-DD
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Shock: Yeah that was a nice include... just curious how big is the fly swatter? :-DD
Well this is the comparison from the brochure so I would say medium to large flies no problem.
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If you do the Tony Robbins Fire Walk, you can probably change tips with your bare hands. >:D
Seriously, I have silicone pot holders but I found them to be too slick. So I still use a dish towel to remove hot pans from the oven.
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Shock: Yeah that was a nice include... just curious how big is the fly swatter? :-DD
Well this is the comparison from the brochure so I would say medium to large flies no problem.
OMG it really is a fly swatter! hahahahahha... yeah i'll keep that out for the mozzies in my backyard
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Sorry for the delay in answering your questions the past few days. I was incommunicado for the entire weekend -- at the WiFi-less in-laws house for Easter with the slowest internet connection ever!
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Sorry for the delay in answering your questions the past few days. I was incommunicado for the entire weekend -- at the WiFi-less in-laws house for Easter with the slowest internet connection ever!
Your participation is greatly appreciated! Thank you.
I hope folks can contain their questions to the threads topic, and not derail it with things the Pace support staff could tackle separately.
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@PACE-Worldwide
Aaron,
I have a question.. How would you compare new ADS200 to existing WJS100 station??
They seem very similar to me...
Thanks!!
Best regards,
Sinisa
That's because they are very similar. The ADS200 is a similar high power station like the WJS 100, with 120 Watts of power, the same all-metal case and similar transformer but there are some definite improvements:
- AccuDrive Control Technology: Our new Blue Series Tip-Heater Cartridges are controlled by "AccuDrive": a much more accurate closed loop temperature management system. The tips use extremely accurate temperature sensors when compared to our previous IntelliHeat technology. As a result, the ADS200 does not require calibration.
- Tip Variety: We are using the identical high-mass optimized tip shapes/geometries as the WJS 100 tip cartridges, but we have added 20 of the thinner, more popular standard tips that were available for our previous, non-high-powered stations (ST 50, ST 70, ST 30). While they may look the same, they ADS Blue Series Tips are not compatible with previous IntelliHeat or SensaTemp controlled stations :-[
- TD-200 Iron: The new TD-200 Iron is a brand new, all-metal handpiece, much more ergonomic than it's predecessor. It stays cool at the highest set temperatures for extended periods of time and is virtually indestructible to breakage (although I'm sure some of you out there may prove me wrong...).
- Preset Temperatures: The unit easily scrolls between 3 user-definable preset temperatures, something we were never able to do on previous models
- It costs much less than the WJS 100! The ADS200 is only US$239/€ 225/£199 each vs WJS 100 US$360/€ 325/£265 each!
Aaron
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Thanks for the info Aaron. If I may, I'd like to enquire on a couple of areas.
Tip Variety: We are using the identical high-mass optimized tip shapes/geometries as the WJS 100 tip cartridges, but we have added 20 of the thinner, more popular standard tips that were available for our previous, non-high-powered stations (ST 50, ST 70, ST 30). While they may look the same, they ADS Blue Series Tips are not compatible with previous IntelliHeat or SensaTemp controlled stations :-[
I noticed there's also these series of tips for the "non-WJS" TD-100, which I've experienced as quite useful: https://paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips
I've never seen them for the WJS 100, which dare I say... influenced a decision I mentioned earlier in this thread. I personally hope some of these eventually transition to the ADS200.
It costs much less than the WJS 100! The ADS200 is only US$239/€ 225/£199 each vs WJS 100 US$360/€ 325/£265 each!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at the US portal, it appears the ADS 200 combo is also priced less than the current pricing of the ST 50 w/o ISB cubby, which is currently priced at US$314.13.
Thanks again for all of the great information and correspondence so far. For all of the current and upcoming features, I'll eventually add an ADS 200 or likewise future "AccuDrive" station to my equipment setup.
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There should at least be tweezers sometime this summer and I agree with the other chip removal tips.. those are nice to have and hope they make the 2nd round of tip design/production.
Your not seeing things either with the price, they slashed the cost of the unit and the tips.. hell of a deal. Throw in you got a dedicated mfg rep for this forum practically and your not going to beat that.
Got 3 weeks to go on mine coming in x_x, hoping some of the other guys getting theirs this week can do some early reviews
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Now I just need to figure out how to come up with $400+ for a TJ-70 and some nozzles... :'(
I used to own a TJ-70 over 20 years ago and it was a great tool for the time and then tried a TJ-85 a few years ago. Despite their design differences, I noticed the performance is practically the same, yet the TJ-85 is much cheaper. My business needs transitioned to repairing/reworking technology mostly made today, which quickly limited their uses (which is why I eventually sold them).
Thank you for sharing that! The TJ-85 is definitely cheaper and the nozzles are as well. It still seems a bit expensive because the foot pedal alone, which is required, is around $140. The most cost effective solution for myself would be to find one of the older Sensatemp ones on ebay, along with a Sensatemp to Intelliheat adapter, to see whether a thermojet handpiece will suit my needs or not. Performance wise, I don't think there will be too much of a difference compared to the Intelliheat thermojet handpieces. If that's not adequate, I'll go with the Quick 861DW.
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It arrived yesterday and being on a rush firmware project for someone, I didn't get to open until early this morning! Compared to my WES51, this thing feels and weighs like a tank! It is really impressive and feels solid. The aluminum iron feels/looks great, but I won't have time to try it out until later.
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That's a nice VFD.. each time I see one I kick myself for flipping one off the bench a year ago..
(https://s31.postimg.org/d8p7hsmhn/JBC-_Envy.jpg)
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I'm a VFD junkie - I don't know what it is about those glowing characters!!!
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If there's TEA group, there should be help for other addictions.. it's not fair. I still get sad dreams over this one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/trying-to-find-vdd-on-4-line-by-96-point-vft/).
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It arrived yesterday and being on a rush firmware project for someone, I didn't get to open until early this morning! Compared to my WES51, this thing feels and weighs like a tank! It is really impressive and feels solid. The aluminum iron feels/looks great, but I won't have time to try it out until later.
It looks huge! Must be perspective distortion caused by the focal length of the camera lens.
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That's a nice VFD.. each time I see one I kick myself for flipping one off the bench a year ago..
(https://s31.postimg.org/d8p7hsmhn/JBC-_Envy.jpg)
That's quite funny! :-DD
On a serious note, I'd never spend money on ANY piece of gear for the purpose of "envy." So much "expensive" gear I tried over many years only to find their features don't rationalize the ROI for my business. The JBC CD (which hilariously enough, the display is like a "CD Player") was a tough purchase but one that had the features I absolutely determined were necessary, and with the work I do, it's already paid for itself.
Now, the ADS200 is really showing how Pace is very serious about improvements over its previous cartridge based offerings and way more! If Pace can keep the momentum rolling, it will definitely be a major game changer! And yes, I'm planning on adding one to my gear very soon!
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By participating in this torum Pace has hit the right type of a crowd. Certainly is going to help them with sales.
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By participating in this torum Pace has hit the right type of a crowd. Certainly is going to help them with sales.
Definitely.. our guys at the shop want to see mine when it comes in already to try out side by side a hakko
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By participating in this torum Pace has hit the right type of a crowd. Certainly is going to help them with sales.
Definitely.. our guys at the shop want to see mine when it comes in already to try out side by side a hakko
Start with this test first on the Hakko's case.
(http://i.imgur.com/CBod9SG.gif)
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My quick review so far is that it is working great for me. I did a couple of really tiny SMD resnet's today to see how small I could go and had no problem getting them done. I was looking at the Hakko FX951 and the add on FM2032 for "micro soldering" until I found this and decided to try it instead. It works for microsoldering just fine for me with the small compact aluminum iron handle and the much cheaper precision tips. I also made one of my typical 1206 part sized boards with a tqfp44 and a mini USB jack with its small leads with no problems. The chisel trip I tried was really good at part placement where I heat the pad and place the part using the chisel as a stop for horizontal movement. Made in the USA, less costly, USA support and no extra iron to buy=win win for me. I'll try to do a more formal review later with some pics if I get a chance. Initial impression is good and I am picky.
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Stay picky - we want to hear from you! BTW, does the handle stay cool like they say? (important for me..)
I just watched the TS-100 review with Louis Rossmann live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).
*To get an idea of how quick people are settling for budget-bargain-basement iron's (with poor tips), it's worth a view.
https://bit.ly/2qb0fMs (https://bit.ly/2qb0fMs)
**His post review (some corrections). IMHO, TS-100 users suffer from gadget love ignoring a poor tip ecosystem and quality.
https://bit.ly/2GBjitH (https://bit.ly/2GBjitH)
*** Edit - Links changed to bit-ly (YT links distract Pace thread focus..)
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I didn't notice it at all, so for sure it didn't get hot. I'll take notice next time I use it. My old WES51 gets hot after awhile.
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I was just watching the TS-100 review with Louis Rossman live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).
I read somewhere that users think TS100 tips are better quality than T12 tips. But they also cost around $10. Priced as if the TS100 is top name in the industry. IMO it's a bit of a novelty and convenient as a portable iron. But doesn't take the place of a good high quality bench station.
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I was just watching the TS-100 review with Louis Rossman live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).
I read somewhere that users think TS100 tips are better quality than T12 tips. But they also cost around $10. Priced as if the TS100 is top name in the industry. IMO it's a bit of a novelty and convenient as a portable iron. But doesn't take the place of a good high quality bench station.
Yup, likely the reason Dave doesn't take this FAD too seriously (it smells like :bullshit: with hundred cash-hungry copy-cat Asian mfg's selling much, but producing nothing of any quality).
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I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
That would be a nice video, but I suggest you do one for -100$ like the cheap (and reliable) Chinese stations. It could be 2 videos like the multimeter shootout (50$ and 100$).
Looking forward to it.
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I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
That would be a nice video, but I suggest you do one for -100$ like the cheap (and reliable) Chinese stations. It could be 2 videos like the multimeter shootout (50$ and 100$).
Looking forward to it.
Given that Dave has a finite amount of time, how can "reliable" be established in a shootout?
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Mike has the first video up. Looks like he has found 3 DOA tips (out of the 11 so far received).
Sort of expecting a bit of a postmortem or at least a measurement of the tips but perhaps he was saving it for another video :D
Aside from a problem with a few tips looks like it melts solder well! Excited!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42sa3wkQUIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42sa3wkQUIE)
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I've only tried 4 tips so far, but all of them seem to work fine and melt solder. Looking forward to the video later when I get a chance to watch it.
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I've only tried 4 tips so far, but all of them seem to work fine and melt solder. Looking forward to the video later when I get a chance to watch it.
I just read Mike's comments below the video, Pace has contacted him already to do failure analysis on them. Could just be really unlucky at this stage.
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Pace contacted me bright and early in the morning. They are not only replacing the tips but a factory service rep is hand delivering them to me. They want the defective tips back to do failure analysis on them. As was expected from Pace the customer service is great. Not just great, who else would hand deliver replacements. He said the two that did not work were most likely from a very early batch that did have a problem which was corrected. The third one that quickly looses heat is going to get dissected to determine what happened to it.?
Ok so it's down to 1 out of 11, that deescalated quick.
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Is it me or the way tips are stored in the iron caddy pose a risk of injury? You can seriuosly injure you hand/palm if not careful. Same is with JBC. I store tips tilted sidewise in the caddy tip container to minimize scratching or poking my hand accidentally.
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I've only tried 4 tips so far, but all of them seem to work fine and melt solder. Looking forward to the video later when I get a chance to watch it.
I just read Mike's comments below the video, Pace has contacted him already to do failure analysis on them. Could just be really unlucky at this stage.
Hope so, mine is also from tequipment but 2 weeks out or so. Guess i'll need to do a full examination and confirm the collection im getting is in good order.
Trial by fire, hopefully cross shipping any bad initial tips will go smoothly. 3 fails right out of the gate would suggest an early mfg problem that creeped in with at least the batch te got
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Is it me or the way tips are stored in the iron caddy pose a risk of injury? You can seriuosly injure you hand/palm if not careful. Same is with JBC. I store tips tilted sidewise in the caddy tip container to minimize scratching or poking my hand accidentally.
With the position of the station in Mikes video that could be possible, however... I place my stations and stands in positions that almost eliminates the possibilities of equipment damage or personal injury. Of course, something else I've seen done is where people use a separate tip cubby that mounts on top of the station.
Just my experience. 8)
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Pace contacted me bright and early in the morning. They are not only replacing the tips but a factory service rep is hand delivering them to me. They want the defective tips back to do failure analysis on them. As was expected from Pace the customer service is great. Not just great, who else would hand deliver replacements. He said the two that did not work were most likely from a very early batch that did have a problem which was corrected. The third one that quickly looses heat is going to get dissected to determine what happened to it.?
Ok so it's down to 1 out of 11, that deescalated quick.
Oh wow that's nice of them, i wonder if they are able to isolate them in TE's stock and pull em then.. might explain why i saw some date slippage earlier today on my shipment
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Is it me or the way tips are stored in the iron caddy pose a risk of injury? You can seriuosly injure you hand/palm if not careful. Same is with JBC. I store tips tilted sidewise in the caddy tip container to minimize scratching or poking my hand accidentally.
Little to no risk unless you put the stand (cubby) where you are reaching over constantly. They are easy to grab from the side. I think he brought his stand forward to fit in frame while filming.
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Re: video (about 12:04) it looks like the tip sensor gave incorrect feedback in getting the big tip to 800F in 3 seconds - did it seem too fast? The number Aaron gave was 5 I think (unless turning it on goes direct to setback temp while user changes keypad) :-//
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Not the best first impressions in Shock's video, but I can look past that. I'm certain any faulty tips would be replaced swiftly!
The bigger problem is getting tips that are faulty without you knowing, i..e perform sub-par, giving you a wrong impression of what the tool is capable of.
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I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
That would be a nice video, but I suggest you do one for -100$ like the cheap (and reliable) Chinese stations. It could be 2 videos like the multimeter shootout (50$ and 100$).
Looking forward to it.
Given that Dave has a finite amount of time, how can "reliable" be established in a shootout?
I meant that today we have reliable Chinese cheap soldering stations instead of unreliable stuff like those which plugs straight to mains or usb iron or... etc.
What he should do is gather famous ones that are less than 50$ and do a shootout for them.
That is my suggestion... he can take it or leave it.
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Re: video (about 12:04) it looks like the tip sensor gave incorrect feedback in getting the big tip to 800F in 3 seconds - did it seem too fast? The number Aaron gave was 5 I think (unless turning it on goes direct to setback temp while user changes keypad) :-//
700F is 5s according to Mike in the APEX video. Aaron said all tips 5-10s (so far I guess).
Yeah it wasn't heated up but had plenty of time before he soldered. Looks like it was a slow warmer probably a element problem because the thermal-couple I think would feedback to the station.
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Stay picky - we want to hear from you! BTW, does the handle stay cool like they say? (important for me..)
I was just watching the TS-100 review with Louis Rossman live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).
*To get an idea of how quick people are settling for budget-bargain-basement products, it's worth a view.
]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao39bPEyok4] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao39bPEyok4)
**His post review (some corrections). IMHO, TS-100 users suffer from gadget love ignoring a poor tip ecosystem and quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71R8OksmpWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71R8OksmpWw)
Thanks for the links, according to Louis Rossman, final opinion: “Highly recommended”. Hmm...
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Mike has the first video up. Looks like he has found 3 DOA tips (out of the 11 so far received).
Sort of expecting a bit of a postmortem or at least a measurement of the tips but perhaps he was saving it for another video :D
Aside from a problem with a few tips looks like it melts solder well! Excited!
Unfortunately, they seem to be having an issue with tips. I still plan on getting a Pace Station when they get the bugs worked out. I was waiting for the new firmware anyway. As some have pointed out, they deal with the industry and are committed to getting it right. They aren't some Bangood seller. I get a kick out of the commenters with doomsday scenarios. That's the internet for you.
I'm glad they can still compete globally and offer a product that's a workhorse. That's what USA is about. It's a shame that more American companies aren't still doing it.
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I just got an email saying the tips are a bit delayed and therefore I won't see my iron until the 18th.
Oh well.
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Thanks for the links, according to Louis Rossman, final opinion: “Highly recommended”. Hmm...
Do you think Louis Rossman is throwing out his Hakko stations? Does he know about the quality and lifespan of the tip cartridges after playing with it for half an hour? This may be okay for a hobbyist to use. But I do service work and I gotta have tools and equipment that I know are gonna work every time I turn them on. I'd use an FX-888D before I used a TS100 every day because they're reliable.
I sometimes work for a guy who uses cheap tools and $12 soldering irons. He loves to substitute cheap parts and he's always doing recalls. No thanks.
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Thanks for the links, according to Louis Rossman, final opinion: “Highly recommended”. Hmm...
Do you think Louis Rossman is throwing out his Hakko stations? Does he know about the quality and lifespan of the tip cartridges after playing with it for half an hour? This may be okay for a hobbyist to use. But I do service work and I gotta have tools and equipment that I know are gonna work every time I turn them on. I'd use an FX-888D before I used a TS100 every day because they're reliable.
I sometimes work for a guy who uses cheap tools and $12 soldering irons. He loves to substitute cheap parts and he's always doing recalls. No thanks.
Do you own a TS100?
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Do you own a TS100?
Do you?
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Do you own a TS100?
Do you?
Answering a question with a question?
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I just got an email saying the tips are a bit delayed and therefore I won't see my iron until the 18th.
Yeah to be expected anyway, it's literally only been out a week.
What tips did you go for?
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I received my new system today and the first two tips I tried have the same CHP error.
The problem for me is the tips are not seating all the way in the handle! i just stop by to check the thread and seen your problems.
Now I will need to test all 17 of the tips I purchased.
I did find that if I pulled the tip out and reinserted it pushed a little harder on the tip it would seat but made a funny sound once it seated.
Going to check my other tips now. :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
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What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?
Sorry, it's my fault for posting that :palm: I'm concerned for budget novices now treating "our most crucial tool in electronics" like a disposable gadget. Meanwhile, pro's (like Louis R.) are saying almost nothing about tip ecosystem quality vs. bench/shop productivity.
Please predict where this will lead: With T-12 tips coming to market from hole-in-the-wall sources everywhere, who guarantee's them? Who stands to loose if quality slips? Who measures plating thickness or does thermal cycling to certify quality?
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I did find that if I pulled the tip out and reinserted it pushed a little harder on the tip it would seat but made a funny sound once it seated.
Don't force it in too hard they don't require that much effort. Are you saying that you have some tips running now though?
What tips did you end up getting? It might help others by listing the tips you think have problems if it's only happening to a few, if happening on all tips more likely a problem with the handle.
Keep in mind they have shipped a few hundred units of the first run in total so you are going to see a few problems here and there, it's a brand spanking new product.
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I did find that if I pulled the tip out and reinserted it pushed a little harder on the tip it would seat but made a funny sound once it seated.
Don't force it in too hard they don't require that much effort. Are you saying that you have some tips running now though?
What tips did you end up getting? It might help others by listing the tips you think have problems if it's only happening to a few, if happening on all tips more likely a problem with the handle.
Keep in mind they have shipped a few hundred units of the first run in total so you are going to see a few problems here and there, it's a brand spanking new product.
Yes I have some tips working I think I have found part of the problems give me a few I am taking some pictures and will post in a few.
All my tips seem hard to insert and I might have figured that out also.
I am not worried at all Pace will make this right I was so happy to have a Pace back on my bench I have a JBC but needed another system and just did not want to spend the money on another JBC. :-DD
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Yes I have some tips working I think I have found part of the problems give me a few I am taking some pictures and will post in a few.
All my tips seem hard to insert and I might have figured that out also.
I am not worried at all Pace will make this right I was so happy to have a Pace back on my bench I have a JBC but needed another system and just did not want to spend the money on another JBC.
Cool and please post the part numbers, if you think it there might be an electronic problem with the tip can you also do a resistance measurement and then compare it to a similar working (but cold) tip?
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Can you look down into the handle and see if you see a rubber grommet. It seems to move around in my handle like it fell out of a slot or is torn.
I think that is what is cause some of the problems with my unit have a look at this picture it's the best I could get.
(https://s26.postimg.org/uiisod85h/2018-04-05_21.06.51_Crop.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/uiisod85h/)
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What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?
Sorry, it's my fault for posting that :palm: I'm concerned for budget novices now treating "our most crucial tool in electronics" like a disposable gadget. Meanwhile, pro's (like Louis R.) are saying almost nothing about tip ecosystem quality vs. bench/shop productivity.
Please predict where this will lead: With T-12 tips coming to market from hole-in-the-wall sources everywhere, who guarantee's them? Who stands to loose if quality slips? Who measures plating thickness or does thermal cycling to certify quality?
Cliff, I love ya, but must agree with you. You are an old FART. I can say that, since I’m one as well. But I think regarding this topic, I’m a bit more open minded.
To “labjr”, if you searched my posts, you probably already knew I indeed recently purchased a TS100.
What I’ll say to you both, reflecting my own personal opinions of course, and anyone else is:
It seems hard if not impossible to form a definitive opinion on a product that one does not either own or have personally used. A very few, members here have voiced such opinions recently, for whatever reason. I believe in this case it is a disservice to the many newbie solder users like myself. Not everyone can afford what someone can, or have the same requirements for soldering projects.
Speaking for myself only, a hobbyist at best, I don’t need a professional soldering station with its potential advantages. And while I can afford a Hakko 951, or a Pace ADS200, both seemingly good deals, I don’t NEED one. So for me to get into the new world of direct drive temp sensing tips, having a much lower cost alternative to a full up bench soldering station is a good thing. And for the many that like me, don’t need or require a more expensive station having a lower cost version of a direct drive tip system, or specifically simply don’t have the MONEY for such, having a low cost alternative is yet another good thing. As well as another feature that must be mentioned, is the battery operated ability this unit has over a bench unit. Not something I have currently have much use for, but certainly a huge plus for many.
Sure, like many I base a good part of my buying decisions on articles and reviews. Oddly enough, I have yet to read or watch a bad review of the inexpensive TS100 soldering iron. Can’t recall anyone saying the available tips are not good, or get brown etc., some have reported long life, and equally as good as Hakko T-12 tips. In fact the only negative things I’ve read are from posters that never owned or used one. Not surprising, this gets into fanboy territory.
As far as folks practically begging our Dave Jones to review a TS100, he made a very logical response in one thread; “why, so I can confirm your purchase?” And he is SPOT ON, we all like to believe our hard earned money went for the best product we could afford at the time. I don’t need to see anymore reviews, just remember the TS100 has been on the market for over 1.5 years, there are plenty of reviews, as well as opinions. I’ve watched and read most of them, and was surprised if not shocked, not on the positive reviews, but by the experience and knowledge of some of those reviewers. Most of them with tons more solder expertise then I will ever have, and maybe you?
I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station. As a fairly good product researcher, I’ll say this, while this product has been out for a decent amount of time, I would hope to assume a Hakko 951, Pace ADS200, would last and perform for a longer period, based on previous product longevity and initial cost. But since these are NEW products we can’t say for sure, though a good bet perhaps, we can only assume. And from reports of actual long term owners, the smaller tips designed and sold for this are a non issue, as good as Hakko T12 tips. Those are real world users, some with as much or more experience then some here. And some of those owners, have in fact favored a TS100 over their previous bench stations, many of those costing much, much more. You can argue all of the above, longevity, egonomics, tip selection, customer support, etc. But for someone on a low budget, you can’t argue the price point. What you get for your money, is something every individual will have to decide for themselves, and should not be effected by those with no first hand knowledge.
Let me also state, I’m not now or ever have been a “fan boy” of any consumer product, or brands. That’s simply a road to disappointment! If like many here, I had to solder professionally, or solder a lot, I would probably buy the Pace ADS200, as I dislike the Hakko temp adjust interface. Why buy those? Well, the two units mentioned should, by company history, last longer, hopefully be more robust with all day use, more tip selections and hopefully have better customer support. If you have the budget, these both seem like solid performers. Are there downsides to a TS100, well if you need to save money, you KNOW the answer to that. Life, like consumer electronics is full of compromises. Nothing I found hard to overcome, but how much or how little you want to be involved in the products you choose based on your own criteria, is up to the individual. Depending on the package you order, all of the mentioned products here can be used out of the box. Besides additional tips, you may need to buy some additional inexpensive products to get better performance from a TS100, like a $25 24 volt power supply, if you don’t already have an old compatible laptop supply. The Hakko 951 comes with the tip temp sleep stand I believe, the similar Pace iron stand is extra. I bought a separate stand from Hakko, for approximately $20. I’d rather not put my TS100 on the table! So the discussion should end up being about the ability of the tool to do the job for the required price point.
Flip side, one could afford 3-4 TS100’s over these two dedicated bench stations.
But with that said, so far I don’t see any proven reasons to dissuade those on a shoe string budget not to get into the newest technology direct drive tip sensing irons, like a TS100. I don’t see the need to bash other viable devices, especially ones people have no first hand experience with, just as Dave said, to “verify” their own purchases. That’s a kids game. Try and be happy with whatever you decide to buy, remembering the next model TS200, and ADS300, will somehow be BETTER.
Now please, so we can all stay GROUNDED, I love to hear from the real “ole timers”, that built and soldered for many years, with those old branding irons, it serves to remind me, just how good we have it now a days!
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Can you look down into the handle and see if you see a rubber grommet. It seems to move around in my handle like it fell out of a slot or is torn.
I looked inside mine, but I don't see the rubber grommet at all. Maybe I can't see it, but I just see the contacts at the bottom.
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What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?
You are 100% right and I apologize for getting into a stupid debate. I wrote earlier on trying to keep the thread on topic, and not about old unit “knobs” etc. Sorry, I’m just following this thread as this Pace unit is very interesting as it competes price wise with the Hakko. For now, I will have to make do with my toy TS100. Sorry for off thread topic posts.
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And while I can afford a Hakko 951, or a Pace ADS200, both seemingly good deals, I don’t NEED one.
Good, Cliff was only pointing out it's refreshing to see an affordable professional station at $206 shipped (which is a big drop in price) and not more made for China type products (which are going up in price). Since this station is 120W it's not really comparable to anything else around at the same price or cheaper, so it wouldn't make sense to compare the products.
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MacMeter - Thanks.. (nice thoughtful writing too).
blueskull - sorry, to kill this distraction I changed the links to the Rossmann review.
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The only problem I have had was one time the password and other settings became corrupt. There was no information about how to clear it on their site. No 24 hour hot line. So a bit of reverse engineering required to solve it. IMO, this is a design flaw and not to have a documented way to recover it is a fail. It has never happened since and that iron sees a lot of use.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698)
My iron is all original, including the tips. If I buy a brand new one, is it going to be as reliable?
Looks like the PACE rep decided not to answer my question about reliability.
I've been using the Intelliheat series and really like the Minitweeze. If I get a new station, it's going to have these.
I am curious, do the new PACE irons still requires the elements to be burned in before use? There used to be a heat cycle you had to follow before using them or their life was shortened. My old ST45 can automatically perform the burn-in cycle so there is no need to manually run it.
Also, I ran a little test using Dave's rebranded BM235 to measure the tip temperature of this old iron for MacMeter. I would assume under no load the new PACE is at least as stable and my old one.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-bm235/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-bm235/)
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Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.
So, I pulled the tip again and reinserted it and this time it did push all the way in but was tight. The tip worked just fine after that time.
The second tip that would give me the CHP error did the same thing once I got the tip to seat all the way it works fine.
There must be something wrong with my handle because it’s just too damn hard to insert the tips….
I have a feeling what looks like a grommet in the handle in not in the right location or has been pulled loose.
I will be call Pace in the morning. |O
Look at these pictures one is of a tip that worked right the first time and the others are of the tip that did not work right the first time.
(https://s26.postimg.org/x3odc6v1x/2018-04-05_20.57.54_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/x3odc6v1x/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/5hllr5og5/2018-04-05_22.20.35_Crop_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5hllr5og5/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/n6dcj5q11/2018-04-05_20.58.46_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/n6dcj5q11/)
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And while I can afford a Hakko 951, or a Pace ADS200, both seemingly good deals, I don’t NEED one.
Good, Cliff was only pointing out it's refreshing to see an affordable professional station at $206 shipped (which is a big drop in price) and not more made for China type products (which are going up in price). Since this station is 120W it's not really comparable to anything else around at the same price or cheaper, so it wouldn't make sense to compare the products.
Indeed, they are two different products. And while some like me, may find an inexpensive TS100 totally capable of doing the occasional job I may require, it’s use for full time work can be debated, not my interest.
And as far as what Rossman uses for his repair business, I doubt a TS100 will be replacing his Hakko 951 anytime soon. But his review and follow up shows what new technology can even offer a newbie on a budget. Fortunately for me I can afford any station you can think of, but I’m not into wasting money on something I don’t need to use on a daily basis. I like that a USA manufacturer can compete with a long time player like Hakko, who seemingly does NOT listen to their customers at all. There is NO excuse for a 1980’s interface on an 888 that’s called “D” for digital. I hope Pace’s new offering embarrasses Hakko, and causes them market share. Yes, at work I use the Hakko 888D, let’s say the cost is about equal, I prefer my home TS100, over it.
And as Rossman learned from his online viewers, with a handle adapter, one can use original Hakko T12 tips. While folks can argue handle ergonomics, it’s nice to see a new device that does not require a proprietary, more expensive tips to function or add improvements. Which brings me to my last point (maybe:) I’m one of the first to jump on the lack of Chinese product quality control. My biggest complaint is the use of FAKE battery capacity ratings, but maybe more importantly their unapologetic use of FAKE safety stickers and logos. Hence the reason I avoid fakes and clones, and am able to afford to pay more for original products.
So my last point is, while many Chinese products are rip offs of good designs, clones, copies, fakes, whatever, there are a very, very few, Chinese products that are in fact new designs, using the latest technologies. Sure hard to find, hard to sift through the internet haze, but I don’t think it’s intelligent to always dismiss all Chinese products as dangerous junk. Until MINODSO offered the TS100, no one else has marketed an inexpensive product quite like this, certainly not in the portable soldering iron market, they own that now. Granted, they do themselves a great disservice with allowing all the rebranding crap, but I’ve been monitoring the Chinese electronics market for the past few years, and these folks would clone their own brand toilet paper if the could, and since they can, they probably do! The Chinese do have some good machinists and equipment to produce quality products, but overall they are lacking in innovation, and the desire perhaps due to money, to get away from cloning.
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I don't know how Pace managed to get the price of a 120W cartridge style soldering station to $206 while still get it made in US, but whatever they did, it was brilliant.
That is with the EEVblog 6% off by the way (and tequipments free shipping). But even at $220 it's a no brainer.
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Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.
So, I pulled the tip again and reinserted it and this time it did push all the way in but was tight. The tip worked just fine after that time.
Can you tell us the part number of the tip that was a bit wonky, just in case we need to keep an eye out for tip issues? Thanks for the photos now we know what to look for.
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Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.
So, I pulled the tip again and reinserted it and this time it did push all the way in but was tight. The tip worked just fine after that time.
Can you tell us the part number of the tip that was a bit wonky, just in case we need to keep an eye out for tip issues? Thanks for the photos now we know what to look for.
I have a few I will post in a few have some more pictures of the handle problem coming in a min.
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I hope Pace’s new offering embarrasses Hakko, and causes them market share.
The Hakko is half the price. At least in the US.
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I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station.
It doesn't.
And anyone with professional soldering experience can attest to that without even having owned one. It's obvious.
It may have the performance of a more expensive iron, but in term of usability compared to a professional bench iron, it's chalk and cheese.
The bloody things doesn't even come with a power supply, a proper cable, or a stand. Now sure, you might be able to cobble together a half decent setup yourself with it, but to compare that DIY solution to a proper bench station solution that is professionally engineered out of the box is ridiculous.
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Ok so the problem with my unit is for sure the handle and could have been caused by the quality control problem on the tips not being fully assembled.
Pace will need to address the tip assembly problems. :--
So, I took my hand piece apart to see what the problem was and in fact the rubber grommet had been pulled out it’s just a friction fit in the handle and I think poor design. :--
Look at the pictures and you will see that there is a cone /cup in the plastic that the grommet fits in and then when the handle is assembled with the black plastic nut on the rear of handle it wedges the grommet down to the aluminum body of the handle.
In my case it looks like when I first inserted the first tip it had pushed the grommet out of the cone / cup in the plastic. From the looks of the grommet it looks like it started to roll on to itself getting in the way of the tips seating all the way down. So, when I pulled the tip back out it rolled back the grommet into the cone / cup and on the second try the tip body slide by and seated right.
The grommet acts as a friction ring to hold the tip body.
If the back nut loosens up it will allow the grommet to move around in the handle not sure if this is the same design as the TD100 handles but I don’t like the design. |O
I would think that it should have had a little high temp silicone grease applied to the grommet so it’s not a dry fit seems like a lot of drag on the grommet when inserting the tips.
I will be calling Aaron in the morning to get some new grommets to replace the one in my handle that is now nicked up. :wtf:
Also, I am not sure what the metal tail is sticking out of the connector but it doesn’t look right to me? Let me know what you think it’s in the last two pictures.
(https://s26.postimg.org/6ro0k051x/2018-04-05_23.24.48.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ro0k051x/)(https://s26.postimg.org/4n3nitvol/2018-04-05_23.20.02.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4n3nitvol/)(https://s26.postimg.org/6ro0jza6t/2018-04-05_23.18.46.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ro0jza6t/)(https://s26.postimg.org/yf0py3at1/2018-04-05_23.21.59.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yf0py3at1/)(https://s26.postimg.org/4zv1p1vyt/2018-04-05_23.21.35.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4zv1p1vyt/)(https://s26.postimg.org/9yik3jx6t/2018-04-05_23.12.58.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9yik3jx6t/)(https://s26.postimg.org/v866eesx1/2018-04-05_23.13.00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/v866eesx1/)(https://s26.postimg.org/6ewmdrpc5/2018-04-05_23.15.53.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ewmdrpc5/)(https://s26.postimg.org/6ro0jyur9/2018-04-05_23.16.49.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ro0jyur9/)(https://s26.postimg.org/4zv1p2j45/2018-04-05_23.16.54.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4zv1p2j45/)
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Is the part of the connector sticking out, possibly a contact to ground the aluminum handle?
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I hope Pace’s new offering embarrasses Hakko, and causes them market share.
The Hakko is half the price. At least in the US.
I’m comparing the HAKKO 951 to the new Pace 200, since they both use the new style tips. The Hakko 888D, would be around half at approximately $95.00 US with the older style tip technology. Since the Pace seems aimed at the same market price point as the Hakko 951, if I were choosing between the two, I would buy the Pace, if only for the interface differences I mentioned. I’ve never used any Pace gear, but do use an 888D.
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Here are some pictures of the inside of the unit should be no problem replacing the firmware once the new one is available.
(https://s26.postimg.org/z8dbr5bth/2018-04-05_17.14.11.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/z8dbr5bth/)(https://s26.postimg.org/w1is7ijnp/2018-04-05_17.11.22.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/w1is7ijnp/)(https://s26.postimg.org/5gg9by9kl/2018-04-05_17.14.25.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5gg9by9kl/)(https://s26.postimg.org/nw0q9bded/2018-04-05_17.14.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nw0q9bded/)(https://s26.postimg.org/rse25aqo5/2018-04-05_17.14.49.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/rse25aqo5/)(https://s26.postimg.org/wea6dn4hh/2018-04-05_17.14.56.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/wea6dn4hh/)(https://s26.postimg.org/3onagz5md/2018-04-05_17.15.26.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3onagz5md/)(https://s26.postimg.org/mgz5kkhg5/2018-04-05_17.15.35.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/mgz5kkhg5/)(https://s26.postimg.org/8okqog5yt/2018-04-05_17.16.33.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8okqog5yt/) (https://s26.postimg.org/kdoqcf4n9/2018-04-05_17.16.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/kdoqcf4n9/)(https://s26.postimg.org/xulovbhjp/2018-04-05_17.17.03.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xulovbhjp/)
Also a few pictures of the stand it looks like once the parts are available you should be able to purchase just the switch assemble and make up your own cabling.
(https://s26.postimg.org/7c31n3b9h/2018-04-05_17.25.38.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7c31n3b9h/)(https://s26.postimg.org/wi3ztxk9h/2018-04-05_17.25.46.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/wi3ztxk9h/)(https://s26.postimg.org/57iom01x1/2018-04-05_17.26.10.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/57iom01x1/)
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Is the part of the connector sticking out, possibly a contact to ground the aluminum handle?
Have a look at this picture
(https://s26.postimg.org/3jol4ewx1/2018-04-05_23.16.54_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3jol4ewx1/)
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I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station.
It doesn't.
And anyone with professional soldering experience can attest to that without even having owned one. It's obvious.
It may have the performance of a more expensive iron, but in term of usability compared to a professional bench iron, it's chalk and cheese.
The bloody things doesn't even come with a power supply, a proper cable, or a stand. Now sure, you might be able to cobble together a half decent setup yourself with it, but to compare that DIY solution to a proper bench station solution that is professionally engineered out of the box is ridiculous.
I believe I covered a few of the differences you mention concerning usability, long term reliability, tip selection, customer support, etc., so I won’t repeat them. Oh wait, I just did. As far as “cobbling”, yeah, that took me an hour, if I had a 24 volt laptop supply here, I could have skipped power supply research time, or if I were happy with just the included 19 volt supply. Bought a Hakko stand, I’m sure most users here have more then one, but if you were just getting started, you would most likely want to add that, 5 minutes devoted to that. Biggest deal is probably not wanting to use a power supply cable with the 2.5mm plug as your iron cord. Now most of the users here could make their own silicone iron lead with their eyes closed, and may have some silicone cable from an old test lead laying around, and a 2.5mm barrel connector. Since my TS100 kit came with a nice soft short silicone XT60 to 2.5mm cord (designed for direct connection to a portable battery pack), I simply bought a short adapter cable, solved that issue with a click of the mouse. Honestly I spent much more time trying to find fuses for my EEVBLOG BM235 meter when it was first released. No longer an issue, since you now sell them on your site.
I never took on the subject of comparing this iron versus that iron, home hobby use or dedicated bench station. However, depending on the end users need, I don’t believe it’s “ridiculous” to compare them at all. And from all the online noise generated by these tools, I’m obviously not alone. I think there is a place for both these tools.
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Ok last post for the evening need to get some sleep.
So, I was repairing a HDMI board this evening with the new station and using some solder wick and the iron just stopped working it was like it went into standby the display started to flash 350 and then I think it dropped to 345 and just keep flashing I tried to adjust the temp up and nothing. :--
I had to power the unit off and then back on to get it working. :--
This thing was not ready to be released yet there are still things that need to be sorted out maybe a firmware will fix the issue I had but I am kind of bummed out. :palm:
I know Pace will get this all figured out, but I had expected better from Pace. :-BROKE
I was able to get the HDMI board repaired and when the iron works it works well with the big tips it’s close to the JBC I have.
I like the length of the handle the cord is a little bigger than the JBC. Oh and the Pace handle stays cooler than the JBC it the work I was using it for this evening.
(https://s26.postimg.org/8y15h4679/2018-04-05_17.30.04.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8y15h4679/)(https://s26.postimg.org/xraphsk2t/2018-04-05_17.30.11.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xraphsk2t/)(https://s26.postimg.org/s34eqvsl1/2018-04-05_17.30.39.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/s34eqvsl1/)(https://s26.postimg.org/xejbbgwmd/2018-04-05_17.28.29.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xejbbgwmd/)
Once Pace gets this all figured out it will be a better buy than the JBC.
You can get the Pace Station and a ton of tips over just get a couple tips with the JBC.
Night
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The last pic is good.. The JBC's flying cable holder and ridiculously large handle strain relief is sure to win some awards for tipsy, bench space monster. IMHO, tech stylist's went over-the-top. Pace also wins in fingers-to-tip distance (but anyone's MMV :-+ )
** Edit (after driving my wife in the #$*# snow.. it's back in April no less! >:( )
I thought about that handle a bit more from those nice pics... Thanks! (not photo-shopped, just a move)
(https://s31.postimg.org/c6plcnmwr/Pace-_JBC-handles-_SBS.jpg)
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Thanks for the lovely breakdown dolivas27! I'm sure that will come in handy for the rest of us.. wasnt exactly planning on it to that degree since its pace but i'll be inspecting mine as well when it comes in.
Unseated tips with that groove + that rubber o ring.. not a good thing.. i agree that most likely fouled it up since the space gives the tip two edges to apply against the ring and pull/rip it right out
Question: did the unseated tip once it had connector pushed down on it all the way, did it stay or was it a weak connection where further insertion cycles will just cause it to come out again and cause the same issue?
I wonder with tip cycling in and out if that joint on the tip weakens to where it will then start wearing that o ring out till it jams up.
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I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station.
It doesn't.
And anyone with professional soldering experience can attest to that without even having owned one. It's obvious.
It may have the performance of a more expensive iron, but in term of usability compared to a professional bench iron, it's chalk and cheese.
The bloody things doesn't even come with a power supply, a proper cable, or a stand. Now sure, you might be able to cobble together a half decent setup yourself with it, but to compare that DIY solution to a proper bench station solution that is professionally engineered out of the box is ridiculous.
lol... i watched part of rossmann's video and was going wtf when i saw him putting that thing into a bench psu.. i saw that thing on banggood a few times as well and just gave it a gander and then immediately laughed it off
why even fuck with all that when you can get a basic wes51 used for less than 50 bucks and they are built like tanks that just last? But a beginner isnt going to know that bit either and will surely buy the contraption just for coolness factor and then their welds will most likely always be bunk and they just shot themselves in their own foot
While on one hand i agree with blue about keeping your own dick in your own vice... i dont really agree about that when it comes to newbies getting dealt a bad hand but that goes with any trade in one way or another... got to pay to play and sometimes education doesnt come cheap
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(https://s26.postimg.org/nw0q9bded/2018-04-05_17.14.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nw0q9bded/)
A socketed PLCC on a modern, cost optimized product?
Interesting choice.
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(https://s26.postimg.org/nw0q9bded/2018-04-05_17.14.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nw0q9bded/)
A socketed PLCC on a modern, cost optimized product?
Interesting choice.
My guess is since they've not been a high-volume mfg before this, they're using previous gen parts to get the ball rolling. Looks like tons of room to reduce a BOM here... Target #1 could be that approx. 150VA split-bobbin transformer (I love it, but it's gotta be over $50 per 1000).
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It allows them to swap out the EEPROM or perhaps uC.
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One of the 8 pin chips, U6 appears to be a 93C46 serial EEPROM. It's soldered in, so I don't imagine it holds the main firmware, as you wouldn't be able to swap it in the field.
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That's for user settings, so the PLCC beside it is uC with firmware inside. On another note, the cap is a good KMG brand 105c and oddly enough, the 7805's heat-sink is fastened by a beefy slot-screw and star-lock washer. They obviously build these like tanks! *Using the ULN2003a as a display driver seems like using sledge when a framing hammer would suffice.. and could this be 4oz. copper? It looks like a PCB thick enough to withstand hammer-like button presses of some big Navy Seal. Again, lots of room to whittle down BOM costs and still achieve pro-sumer grade and super easy to repair. I like it.
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It can be cheaper to use components you already use. If they make this in larger numbers they get a better price and lower the cost for the whole range. And maybe now they can use the same tools etc .
Pace has a good name in the professional world, I think they are just careful not to damage that by producing junk. I think many companies who have the big Pace stations also have a need for cheaper and/or simpeler stations but a decent quality. This way they keep the competition out and maybe have a way to reach new customers that have potential for their big toys.
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Hey! Our cool flying Dutchman (with fancy shop goggles) passes 1000 posts! Congrats!
When I first saw your custom headgear, I knew I had to subscribe to your channel.. and a mighty fine shop too! :-+
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That's for user settings, so the PLCC beside it is uC with firmware inside. On another note, the cap is a good KMG brand 105c and oddly enough, the 7805's heat-sink is fastened by a beefy slot-screw and star-lock washer. They obviously build these like tanks! *Using the ULN2003a as a display driver seems like using sledge when a framing hammer would suffice.. and could this be 4oz. copper? It looks like a PCB thick enough to withstand hammer-like button presses of some big Navy Seal. Again, lots of room to whittle down BOM costs and still achieve pro-sumer grade and super easy to repair. I like it.
Thanks for pointing out all the nice features. Simple but rugged. I don't need an OLED screen. It's not a TV. To be honest, I don't really need hot-swappable tips, but wanted the quick recovery of integrated heater & thermocouple in the tip. I look forward to getting something that's built like a brick $#!t house. That's the way tools should be.
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Ok back to testing the unit out this evening and I have figured out why the unit went to 350 yesterday and would not respond until I powered the unit off and then back on.
Here is what the manual states but for me it does not go back up after the sponge is touched or using the temperature up and down buttons. I guess yesterday when I started to wick I was at the 30-minute mark and the unit went into auto setback.
Automatic Setback Timer
7. The Digital Display now shows the stored Automatic Setback time as "S-X" (x=0
thru 9). Time is shown as tens of minutes (e.g., "S-3" equals 30 minutes). A display
of "S-0" indicates that Setback is disabled. Choose one of the following:
• Press and release the Program Key ( ) to keep the currently stored
Temperature Setback time.
• Adjust the stored Temperature Setback value using keypad. ( )
• Press and release the Program Key ( ) to proceed to the next step.
What is Temperature Setback? To preserve tip life and save energy, the system can be programmed to
automatically set its Tip Temperature to a lower set point (adjustable during step 14) after a selectable period of
inactivity ( factory setting of 30 minutes). As received from the factory, this feature is enabled at 30 minutes and
temperature of 177°C (350°F). There are 3 ways to exit Temperature Setback; pressing the Scroll Up or Scroll
Down keys ( ), flipping the power switch off then on again, or holding the tip against a damp sponge. Upon
exit of the Temperature Setback, the unit will resume normal operations and the handpiece heat back up to the
Set Temperature.
I did not have time today to contact Aaron, but I did just send him a message to see where I go from here.
I should have waited for the ISB stand / kit me personally I think it is a must have but I just couldn’t wait. Once the stand is available I will be ordering it.
If anyone has the unit can you check to see if after 30 minutes of idle time the unit goes in to setback and you can bring it back by touching the sponge.
Sorry but for now I have to go back to my JBC I have work to get done.
Thanks,
Dean
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Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
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Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
That has been discussed earlier in the thread see post #39 and Pace is changing the firmware to allow this.
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Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
On the other hand, thermal expansion coefficients of the copper core and iron tip cladding are unequal, so tip life may be much shorter with larger swings in temp. (at least, this document shows it). So is there a physicist in the house?
IMO, software setback will be just below solder-melt temp to stop the solders corrosive action on the tip. I doubt they would even allow swings down to 100C if they're going uphold a reputation - See link: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby)
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Target #1 could be that approx. 150VA split-bobbin transformer (I love it, but it's gotta be over $50 per 1000).
Why don't they use a toroidal transformer? I found this online, literally first result from Google: http://www.acdcshop.gr/toroidalmainstransformer150w2302x17v-p-8789_en.html (http://www.acdcshop.gr/toroidalmainstransformer150w2302x17v-p-8789_en.html)
This is cheaper than even AliExpress price.
But still, the transformer price can be further lowered by using SMPS, but I doubt the total price will drop. If the iron tip is designed for AC operation (like some JBC), you need an inverter to drive AC from SMPS DC output, that increases cost.
Therefore, I think the overall cheapest solution would be using a toroidal mains transformer.
Pretty sure some older Pace models used toroids. Probably depends what they can source. Keep in mind. They probably have to be certified, etc. They're not building a DIY project. I wouldn't use a switching supply regardless.
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IMO, software setback will be just below solder-melt temp to stop the solders corrosive action on the tip. I doubt they would even allow swings down to 100C if they're going uphold a reputation - See link: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby)
There is probably a point of diminishing returns after you get below the melting point.
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Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
On the other hand, thermal expansion coefficients of the copper core and iron tip cladding are unequal, so tip life may be much shorter with larger swings in temp. (at least, this document shows it). So is there a physicist in the house?
IMO, software setback will be just below solder-melt temp to stop the solders corrosive action on the tip. I doubt they would even allow swings down to 100C if they're going uphold a reputation - See link: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby)
Thanks, it was more of a theoretical question, not a feature request, which you got! I have an iron that can be set as low as 50F. and then wondered, what would an ideal low temp be, if speed of recovery were not a factor. Interesting point about the potential downside of using larger temperature swings, though I have no clue, hence my question.
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I heard that vacuum tubes in radio station equipment back in the day, lasted far longer(many years) by leaving it constantly powered on than when they hot-cold cycled it. Far less failures.
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What you are looking for is thermal shock. They are changing the firmware to allow the lowest user set able set point to be the same as the ISB temp of 350F/177C and thats about it. Once you have solidified/frozen the molecules in place thats all you need to pro long your tip life.. if you start dropping down lower you start causing more than needed transition strain/stress between the differing metal layers which can induce thermal cracking and the larger the cracks just like a road.. the bigger the pot holes get eventually
Edit: there are other alloys like Tin/Bismuth that transition at 138C but thats rarer in actual use i think.. everything else is getting more into rohs alloys that are 220Cs+ so 350F/177C is a good minimum number to work with
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What you are looking for is thermal shock. They are changing the firmware to allow the lowest user set able set point to be the same as the ISB temp of 350F/177C and thats about it. Once you have solidified/frozen the molecules in place thats all you need to pro long your tip life.. if you start dropping down lower you start causing more than needed transition strain/stress between the differing metal layers which can induce thermal cracking and the larger the cracks just like a road.. the bigger the pot holes get eventually
Edit: there are other alloys like Tin/Bismuth that transition at 138C but thats rarer in actual use i think.. everything else is getting more into rohs alloys that are 220Cs+ so 350F/177C is a good minimum number to work with
THANKS, seems logical, Cliff was on the right path. I’ll stick with 350F for my set back temp. Learn something new here almost daily!
SORRY, hate to sidetrack threads, but this seemed “almost” on topic. :)
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Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.
I'm kind of disconcerted by this. I wonder if I should cancel my order.
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Ok back to testing the unit out this evening and I have figured out why the unit went to 350 yesterday and would not respond until I powered the unit off and then back on.
Here is what the manual states but for me it does not go back up after the sponge is touched or using the temperature up and down buttons. I guess yesterday when I started to wick I was at the 30-minute mark and the unit went into auto setback.
I did not have time today to contact Aaron, but I did just send him a message to see where I go from here.
I should have waited for the ISB stand / kit me personally I think it is a must have but I just couldn’t wait. Once the stand is available I will be ordering it.
If anyone has the unit can you check to see if after 30 minutes of idle time the unit goes in to setback and you can bring it back by touching the sponge.
Sorry but for now I have to go back to my JBC I have work to get done.
Thanks,
Dean
I also have one of the first units. No problems at all with my tips or handle. The iron works great and the build quality appears excellent.
I do however have the same issue with the iron not sensing usage to avoid always triggering setback. Also when going into setback it also does not reset by touching the sponge. It does reset with the arrow key though. I thought all this should work without the ISB stand.
When my unit is first turned on, the firmware version of 1-0 flashes up. I see the users manual is already referenced to version 1-2. I wonder if these issues are already resolved in 1-2?
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Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.
I'm kind of disconcerted by this. I wonder if I should cancel my order.
A pace rep reads this forum and actively engages folks, considering they are fast to respond to their initial issues if prompted i wouldnt worry about it. The rubber o ring and the end of the tip not being compressed in on some is the only thing ive seen to give me pause but if it fouls up im sure they would send parts or flip the entire piece for dissection
jaqw, if you msg arron they will send you an updated chip if need be
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I also have one of the first units. No problems at all with my tips or handle. The iron works great and the build quality appears excellent.
I do however have the same issue with the iron not sensing usage to avoid always triggering setback. Also when going into setback it also does not reset by touching the sponge. It does reset with the arrow key though. I thought all this should work without the ISB stand.
I have an Ersa i-Con nano, which uses the same method for determining usage to avoid setback. The situation that gets annoying on occasion is when it’s begun to enter setback (so it’s expecting a temp drop), and then a joint only needs a small amount of heat, so it just thinks it’s still dropping to setback. Plunging it into the brass wool sometimes is enough to wake it up, but usually it’s easier to just press a button. (The “big” i-Con models use an accelerometer in the handle to determine disuse, which is probably more reliable.)
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Ok so the problem with my unit is for sure the handle and could have been caused by the quality control problem on the tips not being fully assembled.
Pace will need to address the tip assembly problems.
They have already discovered a batch issue in some tips, so may have lead to unexpected problems and could be resolved already. As long as Pace knows about it, to know what to look for when testing.
I do however have the same issue with the iron not sensing usage to avoid always triggering setback. Also when going into setback it also does not reset by touching the sponge. It does reset with the arrow key though. I thought all this should work without the ISB stand.
Aaron from Pace advised:
"The default setting is the unit will automatically “set back” the temperature to 350°F after 30 minutes of inactivity, then shut off the power to the TD-200 Handpiece 60 minutes after it goes into SetBack."
"The built-in Setback works like this: If you have the Setback Timer set for 60 minutes, the system senses that the unit is not in use and starts a clock timer that lowers the temperature after it senses no thermal load or activity for 60 minutes. It will react and reset the timer if it senses more than 10° or 15°F variance. For example, if you touch the sponge it drops the temp significantly and resets the timer to 60 minutes again."
"The unit detects thermal loads very quickly, but this depends upon the shape and mass of the tip. Generally, lower mass tips detect a load faster than the high-mass tips, but both are still sensing temperature change within 1 second."
Should be easy to test, if it doesn't come out of setback after holding it on a moist sponge for a second or two, likely either the station has switched off the handle or you have a setting problem.
When my unit is first turned on, the firmware version of 1-0 flashes up. I see the users manual is already referenced to version 1-2. I wonder if these issues are already resolved in 1-2?
The only change in 1.2 as far as we are aware was to allow the temp (and presets) to be set as low as 350°F/177°C. This would allow you to use a preset as a setback (if you wished).
As of a week ago there were only 100 in stock or customers hands, the rest were for their sales channel. Pace obviously will resolve further problems as they arise since it's early days still. I'd expect them to tweak the firmware until everything is spot on.
From what we have seen so far no reason not to get stuck in and start using it. Still waiting for mine, it's looking like I'll be in the next batch so will have to wait.
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Should be easy to test, if it doesn't come out of setback after holding it on a moist sponge for a second or two, likely either the station has switched off the handle or you have a setting problem.
From what we have seen so far no reason not to get stuck in and start using it. Still waiting for mine, it's looking like I'll be in the next batch so will have to wait.
I have tested it repeatedly. I can see the display drop 10-15 degrees on the wet sponge, yet no wake-up.
I am using the iron in the meantime. I will wait a bit and see if any other issues arise before requesting an update though.
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I have tested it repeatedly. I can see the display drop 10-15 degrees on the wet sponge, yet no wake-up. I am using the iron in the meantime. I will wait a bit and see if any other issues arise before requesting an update though.
Might pay to go through your station and copy down the settings you are using along with the tip part number and see if someone here can replicate it.
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Mikes update on his initial tip problems, looks like all has been resolved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnksq77FB_g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnksq77FB_g)
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Pace ADS200 operation manual is online now. (https://www.paceworldwide.com/support/manuals/solder-desolder-conductive-rework)
Direct link (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200%20Operation%20Manual%20april%206th_0.pdf)
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I have an Ersa i-Con nano, which uses the same method for determining usage to avoid setback. The situation that gets annoying on occasion is when it’s begun to enter setback (so it’s expecting a temp drop), and then a joint only needs a small amount of heat, so it just thinks it’s still dropping to setback. Plunging it into the brass wool sometimes is enough to wake it up, but usually it’s easier to just press a button. (The “big” i-Con models use an accelerometer in the handle to determine disuse, which is probably more reliable.)
I think it's more likely to be a programming error than a detection issue. Such as an improperly nested subroutine or an error in the number specified for the temperature difference which resets the countdown timer. I don't believe previous models have the issue. And it would seem more likely that it would falsely detect use when it wasn't being used, rather than what's happening here. If someone is soldering for thirty minutes it seems virtually impossible not to detect a drop in temperature one time.
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Might pay to go through your station and copy down the settings you are using along with the tip part number and see if someone here can replicate it.
Dolivas27 in post #285 had the same issue on the Pace ADS200. I suspect a firmware problem here also.
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I wanted to give you an update on the status of the ADS200. We are still making some changes to the firmware and examining the tips that came back from Mike's Radio Repair. We will also e taking a detailed look at dolivas27's Station & tips. I'll get back to you with an update soon. Just be assured that if you have any issues with the ADS200, we are committed to making it right for you. Thanks for your patience.
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Aaron - I've tested the 4 tips I've been using so far and all of them are right on the correct temperature.
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Has MSRP been established for the ADS200 with setback stand?
Will the switch and cable assembly for the ISB stand be available separately for those who wish to retrofit their stands?
Thanks
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Has MSRP been established for the ADS200 with setback stand?
Will the switch and cable assembly for the ISB stand be available separately for those who wish to retrofit their stands?
Thanks
Yes, but only for the US (120VAC) version: ADS200 PN 8007-0579 $265 each. Will have Euro and GBP (UK) pricing for 230 VAC versions soon as well as ISB Tool Stand PN 6019-0089-P1. It should be something equivalent but don't have the specifics yet.
Aaron
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Upon reading about the issues others have had with their TD-200 I decided to inspect my own TD-100. I had not even realized it, but the rubber grommet inside my TD-100 had come out of place and was shoved way down into the handpiece. I had to get a pair of tweezers to pull it out and in that process it became a bit damaged. The other issue I had was one of my tips would not heat up like others have experienced with their TD-200. I have two 1126-0633-P1 tips; one works and the other doesn't. I took a video to demonstrate the issue:
https://streamable.com/ixiua (https://streamable.com/ixiua)
They look very much like the new ultra performance TD-200 tips but are actually a part of Pace's "Diamond Series" tips that can be used with their TD-100 and HTD-100 handpieces (I believe the HTD-100 is discontinued). This design, with the increased thermal mass near the end of the tip, was also used in Pace's "Gold Series" tips for use with their WJS-100 station. So I wonder if anyone has experienced this issue with a "Gold Series" tip? I also have other Diamond tips and have not tried them all yet.
http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf (http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf)
I've included some pictures here:
https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO (https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO)
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FWIW, it appears the hi-temp o-rings are sold in packages of 5 (ask for part #1213-0090-P5 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1213-0090-P5/Soldering-Accessories/)). Text: This O-Ring is used to secure the tip and forms a protective seal to ensure the electrical connections in the TD-100 are always clean. They will will wear out with normal use from the tip being inserted and pulled out and need to be replaced periodically.
Aaron, are these O-rings compatible (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td100-replacement-o-rings-pkg-5)? (TD200 is not listed under "Works with these handpieces" info..)
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FWIW, it appears the hi-temp o-rings are sold in packages of 5 (ask for part #1213-0090-P5 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1213-0090-P5/Soldering-Accessories/)). Text: This O-Ring is used to secure the tip and forms a protective seal to ensure the electrical connections in the TD-100 are always clean. They will will wear out with normal use from the tip being inserted and pulled out and need to be replaced periodically.
Aaron, are these O-rings compatible (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td100-replacement-o-rings-pkg-5)? (TD200 is not listed under "Works with these handpieces" info..)
Yes, they are the very same. And you are correct, the O-Rings (as we call them) do wear out. The positioning of them matters to a degree, but as long as they hold your tip in place and the tip doesn't fall out, you're good.
Aaron
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Upon reading about the issues others have had with their TD-200 I decided to inspect my own TD-100. I had not even realized it, but the rubber grommet inside my TD-100 had come out of place and was shoved way down into the handpiece. I had to get a pair of tweezers to pull it out and in that process it became a bit damaged. The other issue I had was one of my tips would not heat up like others have experienced with their TD-200. I have two 1126-0633-P1 tips; one works and the other doesn't. I took a video to demonstrate the issue:
https://streamable.com/ixiua (https://streamable.com/ixiua)
They look very much like the new ultra performance TD-200 tips but are actually a part of Pace's "Diamond Series" tips that can be used with their TD-100 and HTD-100 handpieces (I believe the HTD-100 is discontinued). This design, with the increased thermal mass near the end of the tip, was also used in Pace's "Gold Series" tips for use with their WJS-100 station. So I wonder if anyone has experienced this issue with a "Gold Series" tip? I also have other Diamond tips and have not tried them all yet.
http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf (http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf)
I've included some pictures here:
https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO (https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO)
I can see from the date code on the tips that the top tip shown in your image (the darker looking one) is from 2007 and the bottom one (the tip that no longer works) is from 2006. So both are fairly old. Can you tell me when that tip stopped working? Did the tip fail immediately or after a few years of use? Note that Diamond Tips are heavily coated (over 10 mils) with iron plating which can outlast the plating life. But it is hard to say what caused the failure, certainly not the O-Ring unless it was so loose in the TD-100 handpiece that it slipped out and dropped on a hard floor (which can short out the heater wires).
Aaron
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Yes, they are the very same. And you are correct, the O-Rings (as we call them) do wear out. The positioning of them matters to a degree, but as long as they hold your tip in place and the tip doesn't fall out, you're good.
Aaron
Do you recommend greasing or lubricating the O-ring?
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Yes, they are the very same. And you are correct, the O-Rings (as we call them) do wear out. The positioning of them matters to a degree, but as long as they hold your tip in place and the tip doesn't fall out, you're good.
Aaron
Do you recommend greasing or lubricating the O-ring?
At the present time, we don't add any lubricant at all, so it's not recommended. I doubt that a tiny bit would hurt anything, but the idea is for the O-Ring to grip the tip so that it does not fall out. So adding lubricant might make it too slippery. The secondary function of the O-Ring is to prevent gaseous flux vapor from fouling the gold contacts (a problem, especially with heavy RMA fluxes in our initial prototypes way back when), which it does beautifully.
Aaron
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I wouldnt add lube either unless its extremely tight but even then you might just want a replacement o ring that they could send you for a couple of bucks to get a 5 pack.. if it was still too tight then it could be a machining error being a few thou off and might be worth a call to pace.
Also important note about lube and o rings... they must be matched or over time you will destroy the o ring. Using incompatible lube on an o ring seal is a big no no
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Thanks,
After I thought about it, I figured it probably wouldn't be a good idea. Over time, silicone grease may migrate down the cartridge and foul up the tip or contaminate your work.
I don't use polish containing silicone on my lacquer finished guitars for similar reasons. According to one manufacturer, it works it way through the finish into the wood and you can't get it out. Then refinish work becomes difficult because nothing will bond properly.
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Whatever happens, I'd rather wait longer and get something reliable than to be a beta tester and having to potentially deal with customs and shipping and returns and whatever. (customs = nightmare)
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I used mine yesterday for a couple of hours and it got everything done. The only issue I am having is that it goes to sleep when it shouldn't. Hopefully they will get that fixed in the next version. I'm going to disable it in options for now (sleep=0). I use the button to lower the temp to 380 anyway.
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Upon reading about the issues others have had with their TD-200 I decided to inspect my own TD-100. I had not even realized it, but the rubber grommet inside my TD-100 had come out of place and was shoved way down into the handpiece. I had to get a pair of tweezers to pull it out and in that process it became a bit damaged. The other issue I had was one of my tips would not heat up like others have experienced with their TD-200. I have two 1126-0633-P1 tips; one works and the other doesn't. I took a video to demonstrate the issue:
https://streamable.com/ixiua (https://streamable.com/ixiua)
They look very much like the new ultra performance TD-200 tips but are actually a part of Pace's "Diamond Series" tips that can be used with their TD-100 and HTD-100 handpieces (I believe the HTD-100 is discontinued). This design, with the increased thermal mass near the end of the tip, was also used in Pace's "Gold Series" tips for use with their WJS-100 station. So I wonder if anyone has experienced this issue with a "Gold Series" tip? I also have other Diamond tips and have not tried them all yet.
http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf (http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf)
I've included some pictures here:
https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO (https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO)
I can see from the date code on the tips that the top tip shown in your image (the darker looking one) is from 2007 and the bottom one (the tip that no longer works) is from 2006. So both are fairly old. Can you tell me when that tip stopped working? Did the tip fail immediately or after a few years of use? Note that Diamond Tips are heavily coated (over 10 mils) with iron plating which can outlast the plating life. But it is hard to say what caused the failure, certainly not the O-Ring unless it was so loose in the TD-100 handpiece that it slipped out and dropped on a hard floor (which can short out the heater wires).
Aaron
Thank you for your input. Unfortunately earlier today the working tip dated 2007 stopped working midway through soldering. These tips were included with the used MBT-350 I got off ebay and I've been using the tip dated 2007 since November 2017. The one dated 2006 I've not been able to use at all. The seller claimed a few of these tips were unused including the two shown in the video. They appeared unused but since I'm not the original owner I can't say for certain. Maybe they were dropped before like you've mentioned but definitely not by me. I bought additional tips from TEquipment and they all work fine. They are dated 2016/2017.
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Yes, but only for the US (120VAC) version: ADS200 PN 8007-0579 $265 each. Will have Euro and GBP (UK) pricing for 230 VAC versions soon as well as ISB Tool Stand PN 6019-0089-P1. It should be something equivalent but don't have the specifics yet.
Aaron
Dear Aaron
Could you give us a notice here when ADS200 becomes available in EU, and from which suppliers.
Regarding this topic.
I did not understand bashing of JBC. In my company we use JBC equipment all the time. Never had problems with oxidizing tips.
They have great collection of cartridges, and they all work great. The units are practically indestructible.
However JBC is extremely overpriced, and I am not a kind of person that would cheap out on tools. I have no problem in paying for quality.
For me personally the deal breaker is the fact that middle range stations from JBC cannot be used with both iron and tweezers. You need 2 stations for that.
There is now DI-D2 model from JBC but this I think a new addition, that supports both iron and tweezers, however only the station without any hand-piece costs about 450-470euro on batronix and that is kind of a crappy move from JBC.
When i read that ADS200 will have support a new model of tweezers I was sold immediately, and decided to wait a little unit this unit comes out. I canceled my JBC order.
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elektropionir, sorry for the catchy thread title. IMHO, only small group of owners (mostly on the first page) had poor experience with their tips. Accurately controlling 250w tips on an ergonomic iron requires a good company to do it reliably :-+ However read the comments from Pace, they know who their competition is.
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Internet forums tend to be that way. People mostly report great experiences or they slam you with bad ones. Not much in between. Some will criticize a low cost product that happens to be a good value because it doesn't perform exactly like the super expensive model they're used to. And they're probably less likely to forgive a bad experience with expensive products.
I receive emails for service work that I do. I find that some people are much more demanding now than they were thirty years ago. They expect the best service, instantly, for the lowest cost. Sometimes when you help them, you don't even get the courtesy of a reply.
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Internet forums tend to be that way. People mostly report great experiences or they slam you with bad ones. Not much in between. Some will criticize a low cost product that happens to be a good value because it doesn't perform exactly like the super expensive model they're used to. And they're probably less likely to forgive a bad experience with expensive products.
I receive emails for service work that I do. I find that some people are much more demanding now than they were thirty years ago. They expect the best service, instantly, for the lowest cost. Sometimes when you help them, you don't even get the courtesy of a reply.
I've noticed that in general as well... just a flat out lack of manners
manners maketh man
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From people owning a Hakko 951 at US prices... I have a chance to buy a real, non fake, discounted kit with extra handles and other goodies... At 300 with four extra tips, tip holder, and extra hand piece.
Would it make sense to lose the chance to bring it with me to Europe and wait for the ADS200? Are prices and release dates even confirmed? I won't have the chance to be stateside for a while due to personal reasons.
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ironcurtain,
I'm in your boat, as I want to replace my Edsyn 971. I would get the sweet deal on the Hakko right now. If you find that you really need the extra power of the ADS200 (40 more watts?) plus the instant set-back feature, etc--buy it later. I don't believe that there is something you won't be able to do w/the 951, and it kinda seems like it's early days for the ADS200--with some exciting things coming down the road (ISB/Tweezer/etc)...a bird in the hand...as they say.
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Agreed, I think the 951 with a properly sized transformer will be perfect for my needs, and altogether come at a much better price. I will report on how this goes... EU prices just SUCK.
I will check if the whole thing fits a box I can either take with me or send through USPS...
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From people owning a Hakko 951 at US prices... I have a chance to buy a real, non fake, discounted kit with extra handles and other goodies... At 300 with four extra tips, tip holder, and extra hand piece.
Would it make sense to lose the chance to bring it with me to Europe and wait for the ADS200? Are prices and release dates even confirmed? I won't have the chance to be stateside for a while due to personal reasons.
One site has the ADS200 listed at the same price for either 120v or 220v models. I guess you have to decide if you can wait or not.
Even here, Hakko charges extra for their 220v model. And you can't change the voltage on the 120V model.
I'm assuming the line voltage for the Pace is not switchable internally?
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Even here, Hakko charges extra for their 220v model. And you can't change the voltage on the 120V model.
Looks like the Pace ADS200 with instant setback stand at list price may come in cheaper than the closest competition (at even their on special price).
But it's really an easy decision, Pace makes production level gear and you can tell they have gone to work on the handle to get things just right. I think the interface, enclosure and stand has stood the test of time.
It looks on the surface to consolidate several Pace products, if this will be a successor to the Pace Intelliheat TD-100 alone there is roughly 140 something different tips available, including a pile of specialty removal and blade tips which come in handy for BGA and rework. Will be interesting to see where this Accudrive line heads.
One site has the ADS200 listed at the same price for either 120v or 220v models. I guess you have to decide if you can wait or not.
That is about about $30 less than the European list price (in US dollars) and if you can dodge the tax that is super cheap.
I'm assuming the line voltage for the Pace is not switchable internally?
Pretty sure they aren't otherwise it would say, but they are 50/60Hz compatible and from the image that GreyWoolfie posted a while back the FX-951 is not both 50/60Hz.
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Pretty sure they aren't otherwise it would say, but they are 50/60Hz compatible and from the image that GreyWoolfie posted a while back the FX-951 is not both 50/60Hz.
I don't think the line frequency is critical in this case. Dual voltage transformers usually have two primary windings which are wired in series or parallel for 220v or 120v respectively. I guess it saves cost to use a single winding. Hakko apparently does it so they can have different pricing in various markets.
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I don't think the line frequency is critical in this case.
For the USA as the situation is reversed, it makes very little difference. For other countries running especially cheap or poorly spec'd 110/120V 60Hz transformers from places such as China on 50Hz, it's not the best idea.
US made 60Hz transformers (historically) are a different story, they normally have some degree of headroom (possibly due to materials, quality and rated tolerance) which may offset the ~20% loss when running at 50Hz. US made transformers rated for both 50/60Hz though are the best way to go to avoid issues.
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I don't think the line frequency is critical in this case.
For the USA as the situation is reversed, it makes very little difference. For other countries running especially cheap or poorly spec'd 110/120V 60Hz transformers from places such as China on 50Hz, it's not the best idea.
US made 60Hz transformers (historically) are a different story, they normally have some degree of headroom (possibly due to materials, quality and rated tolerance) which may offset the ~20% loss when running at 50Hz. US made transformers rated for both 50/60Hz though are the best way to go to avoid issues.
That makes a good case to stay away from knock-offs. The Chinese seem to be unable to make anything of value without supervision.
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That makes a good case to stay away from knock-offs. The Chinese seem to be unable to make anything of value without supervision.
Not so much that but is more a function of the production triangle: good, fast, cheap.. pick two
China is fast and cheap so there is your answer.. its a good rule of thumb no matter where you go
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It looks on the surface to consolidate several Pace products, if this will be a successor to the Pace Intelliheat TD-100 alone there is roughly 140 something different tips available, including a pile of specialty removal and blade tips which come in handy for BGA and rework. Will be interesting to see where this Accudrive line heads.
This has been my thinking as well, they can consolidate production lines, boost specific part volume, and drive out cost that way and is their real money maker out of this
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What site is listing the 230v model at the same price? (pm maybe)
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What site is listing the 230v model at the same price? (pm maybe)
Says "Special Order". So probably not in stock. I imagine TEquipment will also carry it, when it becomes available.
https://www.jensentools.com/pace-8007-0580-ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-220v/p/489-217 (https://www.jensentools.com/pace-8007-0580-ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-220v/p/489-217)
https://www.jensentools.com/search?q=ads200 (https://www.jensentools.com/search?q=ads200)
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Europe isnt due to go to production till mid May or so, id expect to see listings show up in the next week or two
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Europe isn't due to go to production till mid May or so, id expect to see listings show up in the next week or two
Here is what Aaron said earlier. Not that international shipping and customs is an exact science :)
The standard ADS unit will be available by the end of April, but I doubt the ADS200 with SetBack Tool Stand will be available until mid-May. Mainly because the parts for the Tool Stand all arrive during the 3rd week of April, meaning it will take time to assemble, then it takes 3 weeks to ship to UK (we ship all stock to PACE Europe via slow boat to China ...).
Aaron
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I was thinking he was here in the US and would take it back with him. If you aren't here it's probably easier to wait and see what the price will be from a European distributor.
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Aaron,
Feel free to update us when the 230V model and ISB stands are out for distribution in the UK and USA. There are a few people waiting in a holding pattern to get their hands on one.
Am keen to know also when the firmware's sorted, I myself don't have a problem with a firmware upgrade as I know the PCB, but it would to be good to know when it's cleared so we can unequivocally tell people they can pull the trigger.
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+1 on the stable firmware. Also when do you expect the backordered tips to start showing up.
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Distributors in Australia have been waiting on Pace to provide pricing information... which was supposed to happen two weeks ago!
There must be supply and manufacturing issues still going on behind the scenes?
Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
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or.. AU distributors maybe not that excited about downward price adjustments on existing competitive stock (https://www.mektronics.com.au/pace-st50-solder-station-w-td-100-soldering-iron.html)?
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Pace only did a limited production run on the first outing. Looks like they are going to be busy at the "dwarven forge" for quite some time.
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Pace only did a limited production run on the first outing. Looks like they are going to be busy at the "dwarven forge" for quite some time.
Mine finally came in a couple days ago, works like a champ.. too bad only one of my tips was with it lol
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I think a little patience is in order. I'd rather wait a bit longer than have to deal with a problem. And I'm in the USA.
TEquipment has three left in stock. Eight were sold this week. Thus, they probably won't ship new stock until they get the bugs worked out and solve any QC issues with the tips.
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Hello just checking in on the setback stand and firmware update? are these available now?
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Hello just checking in on the setback stand and firmware update? are these available now?
Far as I can tell, we're still waiting. TEquipment is completely of stock and I've seen no new announcements anywhere. I'm thinking they're being a little more thorough this time with testing and QC before "going gold".
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Has this thread jinxed the ADS200 by calling it a "JBC killer"?
All smartphones branded by media and fans as "iPhone killer" only managed to kill themselves... >:D
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Has this thread jinxed the ADS200 by calling it a "JBC killer"?
All smartphones branded by media and fans as "iPhone killer" only managed to kill themselves... >:D
Not stupersticious are you? :scared: FWIW, Pace would be analogous to Apple in this case (albeit with an iffy product launch..)
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FWIW, Pace would be analogous to Apple in this case (albeit with an iffy product launch..)
Why? The thread did not declare JBC a Pace killer, so Pace can't be Apple. Pace is more like Nokia. :box:
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Has this thread jinxed the ADS200 by calling it a "JBC killer"?
All smartphones branded by media and fans as "iPhone killer" only managed to kill themselves... >:D
Not stupersticious are you? :scared: FWIW, Pace would be analogous to Apple in this case (albeit with an iffy product launch..)
No Pace would have to be the Android model here.
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Subbing for updates :-+
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Hello just checking in on the setback stand and firmware update? are these available now?
Far as I can tell, we're still waiting. TEquipment is completely of stock and I've seen no new announcements anywhere. I'm thinking they're being a little more thorough this time with testing and QC before "going gold".
More than that by just watching my order and knowing some others that ordered it looks like they recalled the initial release batch. So no.. not apple, they dont want whatever defect it was getting to far out there.
That said i got mine a few weeks ago with a 1/8 chisel that works just peachy. Very nice upgrade from my basic weller. Literally just got the mount bracket a few minutes ago from ups. I'd rather wait for the rest of my tips than be suspicious of them dying on me so i dont really mind.
That said would love to know what happened with them if anyone hears something from pace
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Subbing for updates :-+
Notify button at top and bottom of page should also perform same functionality without wasted post.
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At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors. Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC. Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour. Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept). Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor. Hand soldering going mainstream.
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At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors. Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC. Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour. Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept). Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor. Hand soldering going mainstream.
The tips are supposed to be low cost as well, ~$11USD compared to $22USD for Hakko T15 tips. Unless you're implying they won't last long, which would be counter to Pace's history.
I was going to get a FX-951, but the ADS200 is the same price, has 60% more power, cheaper tips, and should be higher quality. Definitely going to get a the Pace once the firmware and tip quality issues are fleshed out.
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At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors. Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC. Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour. Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept). Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor. Hand soldering going mainstream.
These are made in the US. I suspect they are banking on existing tooling and economies of scale because many components seem to be similar or the same as their other products.
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At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors. Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC. Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour. Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept). Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor. Hand soldering going mainstream.
These are made in the US. I suspect they are banking on existing tooling and economies of scale because many components seem to be similar or the same as their other products.
Wow I did not realize Pace makes their soldering stations in US. Even if "makes" means all components / modules are coming in from China and it takes them 5 minutes to put them together. The fact that it will have Made in the USA on the label at this price point is impressive.
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Any updates? I pre-ordered mine over two months ago. ???
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Any updates? I pre-ordered mine over two months ago. ???
Not heard anything, we are all in the same boat.
I ordered a refill for my Pace fiber cleaning tool to tide me over.
(https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_thumb/1100-0232_1.jpg)
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Looks like a rebrand of a cleaning tool from Eraser Co.
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Looks like a rebrand of a cleaning tool from Eraser Co.
The Eraser Co. versions are somewhat similar in concept, however I believe Pace actually have made those Fibreglass/Sponge cleaning tools for at least 25 years (at least that's how long I've had mine). They're for sale by themselves as well as included with the PRC2000 sets: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/tip-maintenance-station- (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/tip-maintenance-station-)
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TEquipment now lists the Pace ADS200 with setback stand. Maybe coming soon! Though not quite the same discount as the bare-bones model.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
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TEquipment now lists the Pace ADS200 with setback stand. Maybe coming soon! Though quite not the same discount as the bare-bones model.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
Even with ISB stand, that $265 MSRP still looks very competitive. Who else delivers 120watts in that range?
Perhaps the long delay is because they're so serious on production-level perfection.
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TEquipment now lists the Pace ADS200 with setback stand. Maybe coming soon! Though quite not the same discount as the bare-bones model.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
Even with ISB stand, that $265 MSRP still looks very competitive. Who else delivers 120watts in that range?
Perhaps the long delay is because they're so serious on production-level perfection.
Tequipments sale price is $252 for the ISB combo so that is $237 if they do the EEVblog discount, and free US shipping. That's pretty sweet :D.
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For being as poor as I am, I am rather interested in this new soldering station. I'm a bit disappointed with my current one and wouldn't mind (too much at least) investing for something which should be future proof.
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I have a decision problem:
wait until this becomes available in europe for a decent price, or go for the Unisolder DIY approach.
Any comments?
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I have a decision problem:
wait until this becomes available in europe for a decent price, or go for the Unisolder DIY approach. Any comments?
I considered the Unisolder when it first came out, if you use a high power handle that has a decent tip range you don't need to consider multiple handle compatibility though, so seemed a bit of a waste and of extra effort.
So then I was considering "high end" high power handle of about $100 and DIY my own power supply and user interface with adjustable temp, put it in a nice case, controls where I like them etc.
Really Pace have done the same thing here with the ADS200, way cheaper in time and effort than DIY and hits all the marks, a nice user interface, metal construction. There is nothing really not to like about it. Tip range, price, company, and based on their past series the Accudrive range has room to expand. Big red LEDs is like icing on the cake for me.
I've ordered a couple so am looking forward to that, will run two handles and try the tweezers later when they are done.
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I had some downtime today, so I spoke with the TEquipment rep that handles Pace line. He said no ETA yet. So I'll keep waiting and hope my Weller doesn't die in the meantime. It's over 20. A while back, I had to cut and shorten the cord at the strain relief.
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Dyaxxis,
How are those cleaning tools used? Sponge vs Fiberglass?
Also, speaking of fiberglass, I was thinking of buy a fiberglass cleaner/scratch brush for removing flux, but then I read about how messy and dangerous they can be (with out goggles), is there a decent flux tool besides these scratch brushes?
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How are those cleaning tools used? Sponge vs Fiberglass?
Essentially, they were designed by Pace to use with a brushing motion to clean off "speciality tips", like the "IC" removal tips. Here's a nice video which shows how they can be used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0wI-5YZQm4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0wI-5YZQm4)
Over the years, I've actually learned much cheaper, milder, yet very effective methods to clean my soldering iron tips. Believe it or not, I use this method:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk)
Only difference is that I use a high-temp silicon pad with piece of "low-lint flux residue removal fabric" if I think a Kimwipe would not be sufficient.
Also, speaking of fiberglass, I was thinking of buy a fiberglass cleaner/scratch brush for removing flux, but then I read about how messy and dangerous they can be (with out goggles), is there a decent flux tool besides these scratch brushes?
Unless there's absolutely no alternative, I personally am not too keen on using abrasive techniques to remove "dried/hardened" flux. I use a safe solvent along with a Kimwipe or a "disposable lint-free cloth."
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Also, speaking of fiberglass, I was thinking of buy a fiberglass cleaner/scratch brush for removing flux, but then I read about how messy and dangerous they can be (with out goggles), is there a decent flux tool besides these scratch brushes?
Removing flux residue with a fiber brush? No. Use flux remover solvent.
The fiberglass brush is for cleaning corrosion on surfaces that will not be soldered, like battery contacts.
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The fiber pencils are the best scratch tools for PCB tracks. The Pace one is good for eyelets, turrets etc or roughing up larger areas and cleaning clingy crap/rubbish off solder tips. It's not affected by heat and easy to use so fits it's purpose and a fairly low abrasive when just wiping with a light touch.
For old rosin flux on the PCB pure IPA works but it doesn't instantly melt, you have to add a bit of rubbing or use a small brush to loose it up. Rosin won't just evaporate off either but when sticky it's easier to dilute it and remove with a bud or wipe/cloth, if it's very dilute it can be rinsed away.
The commercial flux removers may have IPA but will likely have additional more aggressive solvents in the mix as well. If you wanted to control what you are using or DIY you can make your own cocktail.
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The fiber pencils are the best scratch tools for PCB tracks. The Pace one is good for eyelets, turrets etc or roughing up larger areas and cleaning clingy crap/rubbish off solder tips. It's not affected by heat and easy to use so fits it's purpose and a fairly low abrasive when just wiping with a light touch.
For old rosin flux on the PCB pure IPA works but it doesn't instantly melt, you have to add a bit of rubbing or use a small brush to loose it up. Rosin won't just evaporate off either but when sticky it's easier to dilute it and remove with a bud or wipe/cloth, if it's very dilute it can be rinsed away.
The commercial flux removers may have IPA but will likely have additional more aggressive solvents in the mix as well. If you wanted to control what you are using or DIY you can make your own cocktail.
I watched that entire long video again, as those Pace tools fascinate me. It seems for large odd size tips the fiber pen is a good option, but for my normal size tips, don’t see how a fiber pen is any better then the Hakko flux coated brass pads.
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Over the years, I've actually learned much cheaper, milder, yet very effective methods to clean my soldering iron tips. Believe it or not, I use this method:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk)
What is "gold brillow tip cleaner" ?
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What is "gold brillow tip cleaner" ?
My guess is that the video creator meant an ordinary "brass wool" tip cleaner. Brillo™ is a brand of kitchen scouring pads.
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These:
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So how's that innovating in any way... People have been using brass wool for years. Is the innovation in wiping the tip with cloth after tinning? I must be missing something.
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So how's that innovating in any way... People have been using brass wool for years. Is the innovation in wiping the tip with cloth after tinning? I must be missing something.
The graphic text says it was a “SECRET” method. :palm:
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The videos I posted earlier are NOT mine, but I do find them informative, even if not necessarily viable for everyone.
Now, I like the fact that the ADS200 unit and current tip line are an excellent value, however... I use special tip shapes in my current set that are similar to what is seen in Marc Seigel's Pace video and almost all of them are considerably more expensive than their conventional shaped counterparts. I hope that the AccuDrive special tips would be much cheaper than what's currently available for other irons, but I'll have to wait and see.
Regardless of price, I tried a similar method to what's in the John Gammel video and all of my tips have lasted almost twice as long than before, yet I been able to reduce my tip cleaning consumable use and costs significantly.
Just my experience. 8)
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What exactly is informative in the above video? It shows a tip being wettened and then wiped with some sort of material that the blurry video does not allow to see what the wipe material may be made of. There is no brass wool in the video at all. Unless it was an April fool, i fail to see how one can find it a useful video.
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What exactly is informative in the above video? It shows a tip being wettened and then wiped with some sort of material that the blurry video does not allow to see what the wipe material may be made of. There is no brass wool in the video at all. Unless it was an April fool, i fail to see how one can find it a useful video.
It works well for myself a few others and if it doesn't for you so be it. End of story.
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The material is a Kimwipe, based on my knowledge of IPC techniques (you can see it used in other videos).
It is recommended to wipe over an empty trash bin as solder may fall down.
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The material is a Kimwipe, based on my knowledge of IPC techniques (you can see it used in other videos).
It is recommended to wipe over an empty trash bin as solder may fall down.
Yeah you want to wipe off and away from the tip, same for brass wool. I believe he is just using a dry wipe in this case. I've cleaned cold tips with IPA but I'm not sure how wise it is to do with a hot tip.
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The material is a Kimwipe, based on my knowledge of IPC techniques (you can see it used in other videos).
It is recommended to wipe over an empty trash bin as solder may fall down.
Yeah you want to wipe off and away from the tip, same for brass wool. I believe he is just using a dry wipe in this case. I've cleaned cold tips with IPA but I'm not sure how wise it is to do with a hot tip.
It will auto ignite at around 400C ;)
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I'm not too sure if Aaron from Pace would be able to confirm or not, but since I'm awaiting AccuDrive hot-tweezers and blue series special tips, I'm very curious if one of several future AccuDrive stations would be similar to the ST 115.
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Has there been any movement in getting the various issues fixed. I'm looking for a new soldering station and wondering if this is safe to order yet...
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Who knows? I put in an order two months ago with a local supplier and I still don't have anything. PACE hasn't been updating anything here.
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Has there been any movement in getting the various issues fixed. I'm looking for a new soldering station and wondering if this is safe to order yet...
When Tequipment has stock it's a good indicator the ball is rolling again. This second batch should have the first models coming with optional instant setback stands. Worth waiting for in my opinion.
Here is another picture to drool over in the meantime.
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So I haven't really been following this saga. Did Pace ever say what the problem with the tips was and how they fixed it?
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So I haven't really been following this saga. Did Pace ever say what the problem with the tips was and how they fixed it?
Mike from MikesRadioRepair (https://www.youtube.com/user/trclubricants/videos) purchased 11 tips with his station and 3 had probs. Pace identified that 2 were from a very early batch that had a known and resolved issue. The other tip had a heating capacity problem and they were going to do failure analysis on it. So it was more like 1 out of 11 tips had to be looked into.
It didn't seem to be the entire range or a design type prob since Mikes tips were replaced the next day. But no they havn't mentioned what it was, it doesn't look too serious though as his replacements seem to work fine.
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Not sure about the tips but the Pace rep at Tequipment told me they made a change to the machining of the handpiece. Not sure why the long silence. Maybe they're taking the time to be positive that it's all corrected so they don't have any more issues with the roll-out. The internet tends to be pretty ruthless when it comes to public relations.
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Not sure about the tips but the Pace rep at Tequipment told me they made a change to the machining of the handpiece. Not sure why the long silence. Maybe they're taking the time to be positive that it's all corrected so they don't have any more issues with the roll-out. The internet tends to be pretty ruthless when it comes to public relations.
Interesting... wonder if they will send me one once they get it rolling again.. although mine seems fine. The rep happen to say what they changed with it?
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Interesting... wonder if they will send me one once they get it rolling again.. although mine seems fine. The rep happen to say what they changed with it?
He didn't say. When I asked why their was no ETA, he explained briefly that there were a few minor issues. The hand-piece being one of them. Also firmware changes to the base unit and a small percentage of early production tip cartridges which we already knew about.
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So, of the issues I have read about the unit so far, there is the QC on the tips--something that they will probably "iron" out in the manufacturing process.
Secondly, the rubber O-ring/gasket that is friction fit inside the handpiece not staying in position, moving around, etc (first mentioned in post# 266 by Dolivas) -- are thing going to re-design this?
Finally, we have the firmware upgrade to lower the minimum temperatur as well as being able to buy the unit with the instant setback stand--that should just be a matter of time. Is that about everything?
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Perhaps the machining of the handpiece was tweaked because the o-ring seal? Of course I'm speculating.
I think the firmware also had a bug in where the setback function wasn't working properly.
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This extended wait is a killer!
It would be nice if Aaron from Pace could update us.
(Can anyone local in the USA drop in and suggest that?)
But, I appreciate he may not want to get bogged down in answering endless questions on a forum like this, and he may have been directed from above to STFU until it's officially sorted and re-released.
Will have to look at alternatives soon.
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They are 4 months late. JBC must be laughing.
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They are 4 months late. JBC must be laughing.
Oh look another potential Pace customer unhappy with JBC firmware, tips, design, reliability, price, marketing hype, customer service. :D
It's actually more like 6 weeks so far. In the USA they weren't going into large scale production and do the instant setback stand until April.
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A simple message like "we're redesigning X because we made a mistake" would be a lot better than silence.
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They are 4 months late. JBC must be laughing.
Oh look another potential Pace customer unhappy with JBC firmware, tips, design, reliability, price, marketing hype, customer service. :D
It's actually more like 6 weeks so far. In the USA they weren't going into large scale production and do the instant setback stand until April.
How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
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Maybe he's on early summer holidays? I'll shoot off an email , maybe we'll get better info.. Happy fathers day!! :-+
FWIW, I too have been waiting to retire some old friends:
(https://s22.postimg.cc/jti0zvqvl/For_Sale-_Weller-_Lil-dandy.jpg)
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How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
As I wrote earlier. This thread jinxed it. You can't say you are going to kill the market leader without killing yourself.
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How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
As I wrote earlier. This thread jinxed it. You can't say you are going to kill the market leader without killing yourself.
Superstition's are not for EE's. My question's in the title, but feel free to explain that unqualified "market leader" statement..
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My question's in the title, but feel free to explain that unqualified "market leader" statement..
It's in the title.
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How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
Perhaps you missed that they were shipping US units in March and April to customers. Dealers were showing stock in March as well. The US April batch that was to follow was obviously put on hold. From what Aaron was indicating, the earliest they would have possibly shipped them anyway was the end of April (with ISB stands).
So more like ~6 weeks delay from when you said that, not 17 weeks (4 months).
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My question's in the title, but feel free to explain that unqualified "market leader" statement..
It's in the title.
Perhaps you see it, but killing some gaudy looking fad is how I prefer to see it.
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It get's here when it does. It's obviously taking longer than they intended. I don't think they owe everyone a weekly update.
After reading some of the comments, here and elsewhere, I wouldn't blame them for not posting until it's ready to roll.
If you want to know that badly then call Pace and ask.
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Perhaps you see it, but killing some gaudy looking fad is how I prefer to see it.
Hakko is the gaudy looking fad with its weird color combinations.
Pace is the seventies looking things with slotted screws.
JBC is the stuff that works and is delivered.
:box:
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To All EEVBloggers:
From: Aaron Caplan, PACE Worldwide
Finally, an update from PACE on the status of the ADS200 & Tips!
First of all, I’d like to thank you all for you for your patience and support, as we certainly were premature in our production predictions. I am so sorry for the delay and lack of update information, but it looks like we’re finally ready to reggae!
PACE Worldwide is happy to report that we are back in production on the ADS200 Soldering Systems and AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges! As many of you already know, out of an abundance of caution, we had suspended production 2 months ago as a small percentage of our AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges did not meet our exacting standards for quality. This issue has now been resolved and does not affect any current ADS200 Systems already in the field.
Please see the attached pdf Memo, which explains every thing you need to know about the ADS200. I have also attached current price lists in 3 different currencies.
Again, I thank you for your patience. Feel free to contact me directly at acaplan [AT] paceworldwide [DOT] com if you have questions or need additional information.
Best,
Aaron
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Awesome news Aaron and appreciate the update. I imagine Pace is working overtime manufacturing tips and will sell them like hotcakes once the ball starts gaining momentum again.
Today I got around to cleaning and loading my Pace fiber cleaning tool. Along with the Pace tip tool these have to be my top two favorite soldering accessories of all time.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=459433;image)
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Aaron,
thanks for the updates regarding the production changes for the tips and the updated firmware. Do you have any info regarding the re-design of the o-ring in the handles because they were coming unseated and/or binding the tip cartridges that some users experienced?
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I wanted to give you an update on the status of the ADS200. We are still making some changes to the firmware and examining the tips that came back from Mike's Radio Repair. We will also e taking a detailed look at dolivas27's Station & tips. I'll get back to you with an update soon. Just be assured that if you have any issues with the ADS200, we are committed to making it right for you. Thanks for your patience.
Hi,
I managed to get my hands on a early unit, and it probably still has the early firmware.
Is there a way to see the firmware version?
Will I be able to update the firmware somehow?
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I managed to get my hands on a early unit, and it probably still has the early firmware.
Is there a way to see the firmware version?
Will I be able to update the firmware somehow?
Read the first pdf it tells you exactly what to do if you want a firmware update kit.
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I managed to get my hands on a early unit, and it probably still has the early firmware.
Is there a way to see the firmware version?
Will I be able to update the firmware somehow?
Read the first pdf it tells you exactly what to do if you want a firmware update kit.
Thanks! I didn't expect anything to be in there that was not in the post.
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Awesome news Aaron and appreciate the update. I imagine Pace is working overtime manufacturing tips and will sell them like hotcakes once the ball starts gaining momentum again.
Today I got around to cleaning and loading my Pace fiber cleaning tool. Along with the Pace tip tool these have to be my top two favorite soldering accessories of all time.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=459433;image)
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2dha69z.jpg)
I just ordered one of these Pace fiber tools from TEquiptment in NJ. What is that rope like material? Doesn’t look like the plastic type scratch pen fibers, more like a fire proof rope material. Like the material welders use.
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What is that rope like material?
Looks like heat resistant braided cable sleeving(*), cut to length, bundled and held together using black shrink tubing.
(*) the kind of sleeving you can find protecting the wires from the heating element inside a soldering iron.
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I just ordered one of these Pace fiber tools from TEquiptment in NJ. What is that rope like material? Doesn’t look like the plastic type scratch pen fibers, more like a fire proof rope material. Like the material welders use.
The tools about 8mm wide at the opening. Not sure what the braid is made from exactly, it's like a fine woven cloth. To touch it feels like a soft bristled tooth brush with less flex.
It has fairly low abrasive properties but works well at wiping hot crap away. I just tested it buffing up some lightly oxidized nickel and it took me about 20 brisk strokes, way more aggressive than I would on an iron tip. So it does have abrasive qualities but it's largely up to the user. As I mentioned before you can use it on turrets, eyelets etc, no problem.
Edit: Ignore the gap in the aluminum, I haven't closed it properly as I've had the fibers out a few times looking at them. They are a snug fit in the tool, which is what you want.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=460261;image)
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For those interested, I placed an order for a unit with the setback stand through Tequipment. A sales rep told me Pace will be shipping the units to Tequipment on June 29, so I'm not expecting to get mine until the 2nd week of July.
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Aaron,
thanks for the updates regarding the production changes for the tips and the updated firmware. Do you have any info regarding the re-design of the o-ring in the handles because they were coming unseated and/or binding the tip cartridges that some users experienced?
The O-Rings were not the problem. It was the machining of the handpiece metal itself. A few of these handpieces got out before we resolved the problem, which has now been taken care of. All TD-200's are now 100% inspected. If you are having issues with the O-Rings, you probably have one of the bad handpieces. Please send a request for replacement to acaplan[AT]paceworldwide[dot]com and I'll get you a new TD-200 handpiece.
Aaron
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I just ordered one of these Pace fiber tools from TEquiptment in NJ. What is that rope like material? Doesn’t look like the plastic type scratch pen fibers, more like a fire proof rope material. Like the material welders use.
The Fiber Tool is actually made of a coated & woven fiberglass that is relatively low abrasive.
Aaron
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Great to hear everything is resolved! I'm excited to get a new station. :)
BTW that fiber tool reminds me of a chalk holder the teacher used at school. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the idea? I'd never seen one until someone posted it here. Is that to clean the iron or the PCB?
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Great to hear everything is resolved! I'm excited to get a new station. :)
BTW that fiber tool reminds me of a chalk holder the teacher used at school. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the idea? I'd never seen one until someone posted it here. Is that to clean the iron or the PCB?
It IS a chalk holder (and an expensive one at that)! It's definitely designed to clean large surface mount tips, but you can use it on any tip. Sometimes if you are using a thermal tweezer with large square or bladed tips (to remove SOICs, PLCCs or large QFPs), the shaped tips have to be cleaned and then retinned with fresh solder. These tips are so large (over 1x1" each) that the normal brass wool or sponge won't effectively reach the inner working surfaces of the tip. So you used the Fiber Brush to wipe the excess solder off the inside of the tip.
Aaron
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Great to hear everything is resolved! I'm excited to get a new station. :)
BTW that fiber tool reminds me of a chalk holder the teacher used at school. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the idea? I'd never seen one until someone posted it here. Is that to clean the iron or the PCB?
It IS a chalk holder (and an expensive one at that)! It's definitely designed to clean large surface mount tips, but you can use it on any tip. Sometimes if you are using a thermal tweezer with large square or bladed tips (to remove SOICs, PLCCs or large QFPs), the shaped tips have to be cleaned and then retinned with fresh solder. These tips are so large (over 1x1" each) that the normal brass wool or sponge won't effectively reach the inner working surfaces of the tip. So you used the Fiber Brush to wipe the excess solder off the inside of the tip.
Aaron
The price at $19 US, was not too bad the extra $8 shipping at TEquipment, a bit much. But I just got an update email from them, won’t ship for a MONTH! The product link does not show “out of stock”, I assume this is not their normal business shipping policy.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/)
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The price at $19 US, was not too bad the extra $8 shipping at TEquipment, a bit much. But I just got an update email from them, won’t ship for a MONTH! The product link does not show “out of stock”, I assume this is not their normal business shipping policy.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/)
The default for Tequipment is out of stock. If it's in stock, then it will show how many.
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The price at $19 US, was not too bad the extra $8 shipping at TEquipment, a bit much. But I just got an update email from them, won’t ship for a MONTH! The product link does not show “out of stock”, I assume this is not their normal business shipping policy.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/)
The default for Tequipment is out of stock. If it's in stock, then it will show how many.
Thanks, I guess I could have ordered it directly from China myself and saved $$$. Oh well....
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Hi
I managed to get my paws on a ADS200 with the auto sleep stand and I'm thinking about making a little video review.
If anyone has any specific questions or things you want tested, I'll see if I can do them in a video.
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If anyone has any specific questions or things you want tested, I'll see if I can do them in a video.
Inside pics please.. :-+
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Hi
I managed to get my paws on a ADS200 with the auto sleep stand and I'm thinking about making a little video review.
If anyoneme has any specific questions or things you want tested, I'll see if I can do them in a video.
I'm wondering which firmware your station has?
Doesn't need to be in the video, but I'd like to know if the tip of the iron is at the same ground potential as the GND pin of the setback switch mini din connector. Thus confirming my theory that Setback can be activated by merely touching the tip of the iron to a single conductor wire connected to the SWITCH input pin of the mini din connector.
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I hope that no one minds this post as this thread seems to have the attention of most Pace heads...
I first got into Pace when, through a trade, I got a lifetime supply of SensaTemp handpieces and tips (first pic). So, as good deals came up or budget allowed I have acquired other stations and handpieces. My lab has been exclusively Pace for a number of years. Anyway, I have recently come to the conclusion that I have much more than a lifetime supply of these Sodr-Pens. I still have 17 unused and none of the four I use regularly show any signs of failing. Among the few SensaTemp items I have never managed to pick up, I'd like to get a ThermoJet and a couple of nozzles and maybe a foot pedal. I've never used either but would like to give them a try. If someone would like to trade either of those (in good shape) for three or four brand new Sodr-Pens, please let me know.
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I hope that no one minds this post as this thread seems to have the attention of most Pace heads...
I first got into Pace when, through a trade, I got a lifetime supply of SensaTemp handpieces and tips (first pic). So, as good deals came up or budget allowed I have acquired other stations and handpieces. My lab has been exclusively Pace for a number of years. Anyway, I have recently come to the conclusion that I have much more than a lifetime supply of these Sodr-Pens. I still have 17 unused and none of the four I use regularly show any signs of failing. Among the few SensaTemp items I have never managed to pick up, I'd like to get a ThermoJet and a couple of nozzles and maybe a foot pedal. I've never used either but would like to give them a try. If someone would like to trade either of those (in good shape) for three or four brand new Sodr-Pens, please let me know.
No prob, and nice stash.. Maybe get additional traction by posting in the buy/sell/wanted area too :-//
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To All EEVBloggers:
From: Aaron Caplan, PACE Worldwide
Finally, an update from PACE on the status of the ADS200 & Tips!
First of all, I’d like to thank you all for you for your patience and support, as we certainly were premature in our production predictions. I am so sorry for the delay and lack of update information, but it looks like we’re finally ready to reggae!
PACE Worldwide is happy to report that we are back in production on the ADS200 Soldering Systems and AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges! As many of you already know, out of an abundance of caution, we had suspended production 2 months ago as a small percentage of our AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges did not meet our exacting standards for quality. This issue has now been resolved and does not affect any current ADS200 Systems already in the field.
Please see the attached pdf Memo, which explains every thing you need to know about the ADS200. I have also attached current price lists in 3 different currencies.
Again, I thank you for your patience. Feel free to contact me directly at acaplan [AT] paceworldwide [DOT] com if you have questions or need additional information.
Best,
Aaron
Woohoo this is fantastic news.. i got a 1-0 humming right along with one tip.. at least it was a multi purpose useful tip lol
ill have to msg for a new chip when i get a chance.. ill also have to try out my hand piece once my full assortment of tips get here.. i havent had reason to pull and insert with only the one tip :p
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Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)
"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).
EDIT: I think Mektronics is more expensive than other places, we'll see how the prices go. But if you were desperate to buy one right now, you could.
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Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)
"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).
Ouch.... I was hoping that it would be in line with the Tequipment price at ~400 Aussie, but I certainly can't justify $600. Sounds like I might have to wait until it goes on sale one day then.
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Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)
"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).
Yes, I noticed that a few days ago.
AUD$597.15 (inc GST) ~ USD$442.
That's the "Australia Tax" at work.
I'm waiting for Oritech and Upton to list it, to see what they will be asking for it.
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Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)
"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).
EDIT: I think Mektronics is more expensive than other places, we'll see how the prices go. But if you were desperate to buy one right now, you could.
IMHO, the new models price drop would make some distributors nervous about pricing a new 120w station under their current inventory (eg: Mektronics has the 90watt ST-50 selling for slightly less). One would hope when AU vendors reduce inventory investments on the older ST series, they'd be comfortable enough to drop the ADS200 down closer to MSRP.
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"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).
Yes, I noticed that a few days ago.
AUD$597.15 (inc GST) ~ USD$442.
That's the "Australia Tax" at work.
Ouch, I thought Quebec was bad!
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Ouch, I thought Quebec was bad!
Yes, and don't forget, the Aussie dollar is close to parity with the Canadian dollar.
So AUD$597 = CAD$581
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Baltersice reviewed the new Pace in the second half of his latest video (starts ~4:30) with some serious 01005 soldering..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg)
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:-DD As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
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Well, here in Europe the only place selling it have it at 355€, while the JBC BT2BWA is 289€.
https://www.welectron.com/Soldering-Stations (https://www.welectron.com/Soldering-Stations)
So the JBC:
-Is 65€ Cheaper
-Has a rotary encoder for the temp (I like my knobs)
-The iron going to sleep when in the holder is not an optional Extra.
I fail to see how is this a "JBC killer", apart from the JBC tips being more expensive (25€ vs 15€).
The Pace ADS200 list price is 225€ with standard stand and 250€ with instant setback stand, so not sure on their prices but as mentioned a few posts back they might be clearing stock. Even without a setback stand the iron can still go to sleep in the standard stand.
The JBC you're comparing is an analog station, if you think it's better value and love the dial etc go for it. Here is the thread on the JBC BT2BWA (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/anyone-know-of-a-teardown-or-review-of-jbc-bt-2bwa/).
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:-DD As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
I watched Marco/Baltersices previous video a day ago and wondered if he was doing a Pace ADS200 review. He said something about keeping "Pace" with all the progress in the industry :).
I think him making a station is a waste of time now. The effort it would take to make a decent chassis was enough to put me off. As I see it the Unisolders purpose (a low cost way to run a high end iron) was really a hole filled by the ADS200.
I've got a feeling he sold the Weller to offset the cost of buying an ADS200 as well, I mean you don't sell your workhorse without backup. He should dump the Chinese one as well, it looks more ridiculous every time I compare the two.
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The Pace should become popular because of the low cost of ownership and consumables. Although there may be a market for a 3rd party front panel/control PCB with a fancier UI.
Unisolder must be too difficult for a newbie to build if experienced engineers say it's not easy. Most who want to build them probably don't yet have the skills or equipment to build them. That's why they're looking to build something cheap. Would be far more popular if preassembled PCBs were available.
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Marco's size comparison's better than my edited pic.. Pace almost never has strain relief issues, maybe JBC can learn a little (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/jbc-ad2700-not-heating/).
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Just got my replacement rom chip $$ thanks pace!
That was a nice video by Marco.. i got that same andostar, wonder what that uv optic he bought for it was
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:-DD As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Best line in the whole episode. :)
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wonder what that uv optic he bought for it was
Polarization filters https://www.ebay.com/itm/282571649127 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/282571649127)
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:-DD As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Best line in the whole episode. :)
I split my gut laughing at "Oh... not that" (the glowing mega-iron)
https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723)
*edit: In 2-days this got over 22,000 views.. I hope Welectron understands video editing IS work and gives him a fair discount.
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:-DD As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Best line in the whole episode. :)
I split my gut laughing at "Oh... not that" (the glowing mega-iron)
https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723)
*edit: In 2-days this got over 22,000 views.. I hope Welectron understands video editing IS work and gives him a fair discount.
I busted up at this bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg&feature=youtu.be&t=830 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg&feature=youtu.be&t=830)
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Was going to order directly from the Pace website.
USD$280 for shipping to Australia.
LOL!!!!!
That's for one unit, not a dozen or so.
I don't think so.
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What's that, a fisher price? Is it for kids? Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
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Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
Attached to the floating heatsink with a old fashioned slotted screw and nut. Manufacturing can't be very efficient...
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Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
Attached to the floating heatsink with a old fashioned slotted screw and nut. Manufacturing can't be very efficient...
There are a lot of US armed forces and adjunct industries that use Pace equipment, that's why the best part (their tip ecosystem) has historically been so high in quality. On the 7805, I would imagine that Pace would make military sales points sounding like, "see a basic 7805 that you can even buy in Timbuktu runs the whole show" and, "you can swap most critical parts with just a basic screwdriver" or "just carry some PLCC's in an antistat bag, and you can swap the whole dang computer in less than 60 seconds".
Did you notice the costly Class-2 split bobbin transformer? or the red LED's? (for many years an aviation standard, now changing to Green/Blue. ( see: http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/issues/35_10/features/Cockpit-Lighting-Choices_11065-1.html (http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/issues/35_10/features/Cockpit-Lighting-Choices_11065-1.html) )
Take a look again, the rest of the board is mostly SMD. When he said "the main board's weirdness knows no bounds", I thought the clash of old world and new world tech had to be some kind of military sales pitch.
https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=792 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=792)
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The KISS principle could be applied here. If it aint broke don't fix it. I think over-engineered products tend to fail more frequently. ie Toyota has far fewer electrical problems than BMW or Mercedes.
I wish I still had that old Maytag washer. You know, the one that needed new belts every 10 years?
BTW, I once asked my doctor what he thought of the health-grades website. He told me people either write great reviews or bad ones. But they usually don't write about average experiences.
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What's that, a fisher price? Is it for kids? Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
Pace is quite conservative on aesthetics and if you compare it against the Intelliheat series you will see where they are going. But ultimately it's a production station and not a huge departure from the military like design used in previous models, including having the 7805 in that exact same spot.
In terms of convenience having up to 120W in a high quality station, moving to the aluminum iron for operator comfort, improving heating control etc, lowering the cost of ownership, seems quite a step forward.
The alternatives at $200 seem to be anemically soldered designs with tips over twice the cost, half the performance and questionable work life, so yeah easy math for me. Times change, now everything plastic at that price looks cheap and nasty.
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What's that, a fisher price? Is it for kids? Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
That is an insult to Hakko. Noone can beat Hakko on Fisher Price user experience.
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I think Pace is more like the Tonka Trucks of the 60's :-DD
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In 6-days Marco Reps got >25,000 views and 359 comments on the Pace, I think he'll pass 100k subscribers by years-end.
(...unless Dave nabs him with an editing position in Sydney :-+ ) I think a video chat with him and Dave would be fun.
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In 6-days Marco Reps got >25,000 views and 359 comments on the Pace, I think he'll pass 100k subscribers by years-end.
I'll stay on the conservative side of 100k. I don't have the full stats but he had approx 8% subscriber growth last month.
I like his channel, very entertaining. Looking forward to seeing if he does a display mod, how it improves his soldering skills :).
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My Tequipment ship date keeps slipping. It was originally July 6, then July 13. Now it's July 17. I'm not expecting that one to hold...
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My Tequipment ship date keeps slipping. It was originally July 6, then July 13. Now it's July 17. I'm not expecting that one to hold...
Tequipment typically shows stock numbers on their website which is a good indicator when they are about to deliver. What tips did you end up ordering?
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My Tequipment ship date keeps slipping. It was originally July 6, then July 13. Now it's July 17. I'm not expecting that one to hold...
Tequipment typically shows stock numbers on their website which is a good indicator when they are about to deliver. What tips did you end up ordering?
That I know. I was talking to a sales rep who said they only had 9 units on order that would arrive 6/29, so I placed my order to secure one. I ordered the 1/64" bent conical, 3/64" and 1/32" 30deg chisel, and 1/8" UHP chisel. I use the bent conical 95% of the time with my Hakko.
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:-DD As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
The chick working on the mobo while incurring 3rd degree burns just cracks me up....
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I'm really hoping a few more thread followers buy this unit so that we can get some feedback on tip selection, usage, pros and cons. Also, TEquipment might have decent stocking levels on the station w/ISB and a good tip selection by the fall. Do they do a Black Friday Sale or is the eevblog discount still gonna beat that?
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At least TEquipment have some of the standard tool stand variants in stock.
Australian retailers can't even place an order with Pace. |O
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Looks like Pace is now moving to Aluminum irons on their existing Intelliheat series stations as well. They have a new TD-100A (https://paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/soldering-irons/td100a-aluminum-tipheater-cartridge-iron-with-tool-stand) iron which will come standard on the MBT 350 and 351 stations and be compatible with select ST and WJS stations that took the TD-100.
(https://paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_thumb/td100a%20and%20standard%20cubby%20smaller%20web.jpg)
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First post. Looking to try as hobby with my kids on keyboards and Arduino. I am new to soldering and am trying to find the differences between the ADS200 and some of the, I assume, older PACE stations (ST's and WSJ100). Pro/Con?
Apologies if too generic, noob. Hints to searches beyond 'PACE ADS200 vs' and youtube reviews, surprisingly few on the WSJ100.
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Apologies if too generic, noob. Hints to searches beyond 'PACE ADS200 vs' and youtube reviews, surprisingly few on the WSJ100.
...I think I found what I was looking for in the earlier pages of this thread.
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The pros for the ADS200 vs other Pace stations are:
1. Calibration is not required when changing tips. The WJS100 and MBT will detect tip removal and indicate that you need to perform calibration (by changing its LED from green to amber).
2. Availability of both compact Standard blue cartridges (1130- series), and high heat capacity Ultra Performance blue cartridges (1131- series), both able to heat at 120 watts.
The WJS100 is only compatible with the High Power gold cartridges (1128- series), a smaller selection.
The other Intelliheat stations are compatible with the Standard (1124- series) and long-life Diamond coated (1126- series) black cartridges, which is the largest selection.
3. more attractive price
Cons:
1. Unlike the Intelliheat ST, MBT, and WJS100 stations, the ADS200 can (currently) only be used with the TD200 soldering iron handpiece. In particular, it is not compatible with any of the Pace tweezer tools like the MT-100, which the WJS100 is able to use. The MBT stations with vacuum and hot-air support can use the widest range of tools, including older SensaTemp tools with a cable adapter.
The other tools you can use with a ST or MBT are:
TD100 cartridge soldering iron
PS90 tip soldering iron
MT100 mini tweezer
TT65 ThermoTweez large tweezer for large SMD components
TP100 ThermoPik tweezer with vacuum pickup
TP65 ThermoPik large tweezer with vacuum pickup
TJ85 ThermoJet air pencil
TJ70 ThermoJet large air pencil
SX100 SodrXTractor desoldering tool
See https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ProductOverviewEng_F.pdf (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ProductOverviewEng_F.pdf)
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Apologies if too generic, noob. Hints to searches beyond 'PACE ADS200 vs' and youtube reviews, surprisingly few on the WSJ100.
...I think I found what I was looking for in the earlier pages of this thread.
The Pace WJS100 is the older Intelliheat series. Unless you already own one it's more beneficial and lighter on the pocket to own a new Pace ADS200 Accudrive.
The ADS200 is a robust professional level station and would be perfect for kids to learn on with supervision. It has easy to replace tips, a low "tip to work" distance, plus a reasonably short handle so it's suitable for both kids and adults.
From Paces track record they don't compromise on quality, they still manufacture their products in the USA and are known to last a long time. The tip selection is currently about 40 different tips and will increase if demand requires it. I've taught absolute beginners and I recommend to start on one tip and master the basics and work with more tips as you get used to them, three or four tips covers most situations. People typically limit tip spending to their budget. Hope that helps.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/teaching-to-solder-how-young-is-too-young/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/teaching-to-solder-how-young-is-too-young/)
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Just a couple of other things. There is a "Temperature Limits" and "Password" feature that can be used to prevent other users from turning up the temperature to ridiculous settings. As some of the finer tips are quite sharp it's not suitable to leave them laying around or in the iron stand (pointing up) where children are reaching across or in an area where they play.
https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_Operation_Manual%20_%2013-Apr-2018.pdf (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_Operation_Manual%20_%2013-Apr-2018.pdf)
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Wow, thanks all!! I appreciate the responses to a noob. I think the ASD200 will probably be overkill for us, but I do really enjoy nice tools. I will be placing order with TE.
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Wow, thanks all!! I appreciate the responses to a noob. I think the ASD200 will probably be overkill for us, but I do really enjoy nice tools. I will be placing order with TE.
No problem, personally I don't think an overkill. Just the best choice for value for money. On the subject of tips again you will need to buy some with the station, make sure you add them to your order.
I took a little action shot photo here to help you out. Proper technique is to size the tip close to the size of joint (a land on the pcb) you are soldering. It's a personal choice and dependent on what you are soldering but here is a quick guide.
A chisel is a good choice for a through hole joint and the 3/32” 2.38mm tip (shown in image) looks a good fit for the left and center joints, in a pinch it can be used for slightly larger joints. For the right side surface mount joint something half the size would be more appropriate. For very fine surface mount joints look at even smaller tips. A bent conical/chisel is useful especially for approaching surface mount joints from the side.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=475157;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=475859;image)
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I ordered the ADS200 with setback stand from TE yesterday. They are currently out of stock but should be in soon.
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I ordered the ADS200 with setback stand from TE yesterday. They are currently out of stock but should be in soon.
The 1/32" 0.80mm tip is considered a fairly fine tip. For working on your old auto electronics and equipment I would go to a 3/32” 2.38mm chisel tip and even a 1/8" 3.18mm chisel tip in addition. Those three tips are a good start, and as I said in my previous post just size the tip to the joint.
Going larger than 1/8" 3.18mm may be the best choice for soldered lugs and connections, it all depends on what size you're doing. The decision to pick the standard or the higher wattage ultra performance tips (https://paceworldwide.com/ADS200/) is up to your personal preference. When you order check you are using the correct prefix for which type you want (1130 or 1131).
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The 1/32" 0.80mm tip is considered a fairly fine tip. For working on your old auto electronics and equipment I would go to a 3/32” 2.38mm chisel tip and even a 1/8" 3.18mm chisel tip in addition. Those three tips are a good start, and as I said in my previous post just size the tip to the joint.
Going larger than 1/8" 3.18mm may be the best choice for soldered lugs and connections, it all depends on what size you're doing. The decision to pick the standard or the higher wattage ultra performance tips (https://paceworldwide.com/ADS200/) is up to your personal preference. When you order check you are using the correct prefix for which type you want (1130 or 1131).
Thank you Shock. I will call tomorrow and see if they can add to my unshipped order. I am guessing the standard tips(1130) will be perfectly adequate for what we will do in the near future.
There is also solder and flux in the order as I pm'd you. The sales tech explained to me about the benefits of using lead vs lead-free in exposed environments like a vehicle. I understood it when he said it but I can't remember which is better. No worries though, more fun research and learning.
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Thank you Shock. I will call tomorrow and see if they can add to my unshipped order. I am guessing the standard tips(1130) will be perfectly adequate for what we will do in the near future.
It's your choice, the standard tips are plenty powerful enough for most work, if you use the correct size tip. I ordered 3 out of my 12 tips (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1465523/#msg1465523) ultra performance, mainly to get a couple of beastly sized tips for soldering heatsinks to large ground planes.
There is also solder and flux in the order as I pm'd you. The sales tech explained to me about the benefits of using lead vs lead-free in exposed environments like a vehicle. I understood it when he said it but I can't remember which is better. No worries though, more fun research and learning.
I do rework/repair with lead, and since my wife is not an RoHS inspector I'm good. If you are an employee or producing a product etc, lead free is the way to go. But personal preference otherwise.
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I've just ordered an ADS 200 w/ISB hand piece stand. Only desire I'd like to see soon would be a "chip tip" to work with 0201 component removal, or even a well designed tip for 01005 parts, however I'll address that eventually directly with Pace. Very eager to test out the proposed new tweezer design, but I'm going to just wait and see when Pace will get around to releasing them.
I still intend to own and operate my JBC CD station, so I'll try to find the time to create some sort of comparative review between the two. My work demands shift dramatically, so I'll need to see when an open time will permit. I actually work with quite a bit of IPC Class 3 J-STD-001 operations (along with A-610, 7711, 7721, etc.) so depending on time and work demand constraints, I may just make simple comparative observations in the respective rework environment.
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I've just ordered an ADS 200 w/ISB hand piece stand. Only desire I'd like to see soon would be a "chip tip" to work with 0201 component removal, or even a well designed tip for 01005 parts, however I'll address that eventually directly with Pace. Very eager to test out the proposed new tweezer design, but I'm going to just wait and see when Pace will get around to releasing them.
You mean similar to the 0201 Chip Removal Tip for the TD-100 iron (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips/0201-chip-removal-tip-0534)?
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You mean similar to the 0201 Chip Removal Tip for the TD-100 iron (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips/0201-chip-removal-tip-0534)?
Exactly. I've used these tip shapes with several irons and systems I've owned over several years because of very tight confines where no other tool would work efficiently and without damaging/inadvertently reflowing nearby components. I currently use similar tip types with my JBC T245 handle and removal has been very quick, precise, and without perceptible damage.
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Probably more a question for Aaron, but what's the difference between the bevel tip (1130-0011-P1) and the chisel (or conical) tips? The picture on the website looks similar to the conical tips, but I always thought bevel tips were the same as chisels.
Also do the Pace Miniwave tips have that little depression on the face of the tip?
Was really tempted to pick one up earlier this year because I thought my Metal had finally died on me. Fortunately it appears to have been just the handpiece. Still tempted though.
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I added the other tips to the order, all 1130’s. The 0013 was out of stock but I should be fine with the other four in the short term
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Probably more a question for Aaron, but what's the difference between the bevel tip (1130-0011-P1) and the chisel (or conical) tips? The picture on the website looks similar to the conical tips, but I always thought bevel tips were the same as chisels
A bevel is a conical tip that's had the pointy end cut off on an angle. Makes a single oval face, where a chisel/screwdriver shape has 2 flat sides.
(https://i.imgur.com/8laoDSX.jpg)
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Probably more a question for Aaron, but what's the difference between the bevel tip (1130-0011-P1) and the chisel (or conical) tips? The picture on the website looks similar to the conical tips, but I always thought bevel tips were the same as chisels.
A Bevel has a face cut across the tip. Chisels have two faces. Conical tips are just a taper. The 1130-0011-P1 has a 60 degree face cut across, this older image from the TD-100 series shows it a little clearer.
(https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_list/4-0011.JPG)
Also do the Pace Miniwave tips have that little depression on the face of the tip?
Yes you can see it on the 0.083"/3.05mm Miniwave, 1130-0032-P1 and in this video.
(https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_thumb/1130-00032-P1%20Final.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNp0pASpgOI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNp0pASpgOI)
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Apparently Dave is getting too close to his Pace :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FrVOXitrVk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FrVOXitrVk)
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Thanks! Now to wait for the reviews. :)
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Also do the Pace Miniwave tips have that little depression on the face of the tip?
Hi knotlogic,
See Shock's reply to your question about bevel vs. chisel tips, as he explains it well.
Miniwave tips are specifically designed for drag soldering across multiple leads. The spoon-shaped "depression" is key to the way any Miniwave (also called hoof or drag soldering) tip works. You fill the cavity with solder and it acts like a quill pen, replenishing the solder as it drags across multiple leads. A bevel type tip will also work well for drag soldering, but you'll have to add solder much more often. We call it the Miniwave because the tip acts as a miniature wave soldering machine.
By the way, PACE is the originator of Miniwave technology, which was accidentally discovered in the late 80's by one of our applications engineers. He was experimenting with drag soldering using a beveled tip, and found that a spoon shape allowed him to solder 4-sided QFPs and PLCCs (new at that time) on all 4-sides without adding additional solder to the tip. The Miniwave cavity was quickly adopted by Metcal and ERSA, and later by most other soldering iron manufacturers. Too bad we didn't try to patent it!
Aaron
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I have one for my Ersa and it’s great. They are not only good for SMD, but also for other things where you want to prevent excess solder from collecting, such as tinning small stranded wire.
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So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.
The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.
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TLDL;
It's not nearly as good thermally as the JBC CD-B, good 20+ degC difference in capability at low temp, I was very surprised. So much for "delivers unsurpassed thermal performance" :-//
So no JBC killer, unless price is your sole driving factor.
Well built though and pretty sexy.
The display has some random number and overshoot weirdness.
(video may not be processed yet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYQpCkCHkIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYQpCkCHkIs)
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Sounds like crap, then. But that's OK, they can't make 'em anyways! :-DD
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Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?
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:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly, decode keypresses, and update a display. And that layout, like Dave says, is rubbish.
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Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?
Yes, I found it a bit annoying actually, unlike the JBC one which you don't even really notice. Probably worth saving the $30 and going without it.
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So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.
The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.
As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:
www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors)
Or you can buy direct from PACE's website:
ADS200 with Standard Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)
ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)
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:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly
I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.
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So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.
The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.
As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:
www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors)
Tequipment have stock at least.
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I think the first version of the firmware had a more stable display, as in, you didn't see the fluctuation as often, so I prefer the latest version even if it does show the overshoot a bit more and is a bit more jumpy. I find that better than such a stable display where it never leaves the set temp because you don't really see what is going on with the tip.
Dave - did you also check the tip temp of the JBC during the test, it is probably bang on, but that would have been nice to verify as well since we are doing a low temp test.
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:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly
I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.
You are correct. Like all other soldering iron manufacturers (including JBC, Hakko, Ersa and Weller), we use temperature display dampening software. This is because if you saw the real-time temperature fluctuations at the sensor level, it might throw you into an epileptic fit with all the temperature variation shown on the display.
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:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly
I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.
Then why does it appear to run "cold" with the same power as the JBC? Something's off at the P term seems to me.
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Tequipment have stock at least.
Nope!
Not even TEquipment currently have the ISB model (albeit 120VAC version) either, hence my original question.
They show 10 units with the standard stand, and no ISB units.
Anyway... after months of waiting, I'm now considering the JBC.
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As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:
www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors)
Or you can buy direct from PACE's website:
ADS200 with Standard Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)
ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)
Thanks Aaron.
I've been across everything since April, and was aware of the issues.
Tried ordering directly from Pace last week, but the price comes up as $0.00
That's a bargain!
But USD$280 for freight to Australia?
Don't think so!
:-(
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I've been across everything since April, and was aware of the issues.
Tried ordering directly from Pace last week, but the price comes up as $0.00
That's a bargain!
But USD$280 for freight to Australia?
Don't think so!
:-(
LOL ... yes, we just put the ADS200 webpage up last week, so we may not have entered the pricing at that time. It's up now though. Concerning the $280 shipping, I think you might consider purchasing through our Australian distributor Mektronics as we are restricted as to how we can ship overseas (only Fedex and UPS, I believe). This is because we sell direct as a convenience to the customer but we much prefer you buy through an authorized distributor. So you'll probably get a better shipping deal from Mektronics:
MEKTRONICS Australia
Website: www.mektronics.com.au (http://www.mektronics.com.au)
Email: sales@mektronics.com.au
Aaron
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The other question I have as well is how do we know we are comparing apples to apples - setting two units to 270 could mean two entirely different things depending on the way they regulate temperature. One unit might consider 270 the average temperature with temps going higher than that and the other unit might consider 270 the maximum temperature and it tolerates being pulled down below that, but is designed to not go much above it so its average is actually lower than what it is set for. How could one test for tip temp during use to get a graph of actual performance - that would be the final word i would think!
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Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.
I'm guessing we won't hear anything for a bit until they get their ducks in a row. It looks like I pulled the trigger too early buying a unit. Tequipment just shipped the ISB, so I'm probably going to eat the shipping costs and return it.
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Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.
I'm guessing we won't hear anything for a bit until they get their ducks in a row. It looks like I pulled the trigger too early buying a unit. Tequipment just shipped the ISB, so I'm probably going to eat the shipping costs and return it.
If their firmware is like their TO-220 placement, you guys are in trouble. The amount of time this is taking you'd think they're trying to install a web browser in there. It's a soldering iron. That's their main product. |O
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The other question I have as well is how do we know we are comparing apples to apples - setting two units to 270 could mean two entirely different things depending on the way they regulate temperature. One unit might consider 270 the average temperature with temps going higher than that and the other unit might consider 270 the maximum temperature and it tolerates being pulled down below that, but is designed to not go much above it so its average is actually lower than what it is set for. How could one test for tip temp during use to get a graph of actual performance - that would be the final word i would think!
Marco Reps' review suggested the sensor may be further away from the tip, so this may explain the pace (no pun intended) at which they decided to recover in software. He noted no overshoots, just moderate and accurate recovery. Perhaps Pace could offer a menu option for aggressive thermal management, but that could end-up decreasing the famous life of the Pace tip-cladding.. Indeed, it does seem like apples and oranges, but firmware in part, may be able to flatten the user experience.
*edit: Added Marco Reps tip cutaway angles (still doesn't explain why competitors tips cost so much and don't last..)
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Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.
I've sent the video to our Engineers for review. We've done performance tests against competitive units and fared excellently in most cases. But note that it was never our intention to design a "JBC Killer" ... we just wanted to produce a solid, low cost, reliable soldering station that could be purchased by everyday technicians, yet withstand the rigors of intense production soldering, without costing an arm and a leg. As Dave mentioned in his review, perhaps a better comparison would be against the Hakko 951. From a cost of ownership basis, JBC is double the price for the initial cost and more than double the price of our tips, so we need to have realistic expectations. We will be successful in 90-95% of the applications, and against the competition, even JBC, in standard applications. As shown in the video, our build quality is second to none and is designed to last 10-20 years, typical for a PACE Station. Our new TD-200 handpiece is superior to the JBC, Hakko Metcal, et al: tip-to-grip is excellent (the shorter the tip-to-grip, the better fine control, especially under a microscope), ergonomics are great, and our new Cool Touch technology works! Ask Dave about the temperature of the JBC handle at higher temperatures and I think you'll find it gets extremely hot in any extended use situation - JBC now ships the handle with a large foam grip to lessen the heat issue, but I believe it ruins the otherwise solid ergonomics of the JBC iron. All in all, the feedback we've received from recent customers has been overwhelmingly positive and I think you should all give the ADS200 a try!
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Marco Reps' review suggested the sensor may be further away from the tip, so this may explain the pace (no pun intended) at which they decided to recover in software. He noted no overshoots, just moderate and accurate recovery. Perhaps Pace could offer a menu option for aggressive thermal management, but that could end-up decreasing the famous life of the Pace tip-cladding.. Indeed, it does seem like apples and oranges, but firmware in part, may be able to flatten the user experience.
Cliff,
You are correct about the placement of the sensor. JBC's is minutely closer to the front end of the tip, allowing for a slightly faster recovery, but it ends up costing you big bucks as they are super expensive to manufacture this way. Again, we are not trying to "beat" JBC, we are simply trying to provide a high-performance (despite Dave's comparison, the ADS200 is powerful) and affordable soldering station.
Aaron
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Our new TD-200 handpiece is superior to the JBC, Hakko Metcal, et al: tip-to-grip is excellent (the shorter the tip-to-grip, the better fine control, especially under a microscope), ergonomics are great
Very true! The moment i tried the handpiece at a tech show i instantly knew that. JBC iron is far from that comfy feeling in your hand.
All in all i think the hardware is capable. the firmware should be able to address the noted deficiencies. But there should be a way to update the firmware by the user.
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Three more things to add.
I do agree that you can't judge a product against one that is twice its price, well at least not often. There is sometimes that upset where a product half the price performs as well in every way, but it is probably more reasonable to be pleased if a product performs as well in some ways if it is half the price. It is certainly possible that the JBC has tighter or better regulation and that would be a benefit, but it is also certainly possible that the JBC allows you to set a lower temperature and it is thinking "average temp" instead of "maximum temp". If you look at their website, they sell this as a feature that puts them above their competition, that you can set the temp lower, but my question is if you truly compare the tip temps under use, how does that relate to the actual tip temperatures being executed. Since it is a sales point for them, I do have to wonder what the real deal is/temps are. A comparison where you have the ADS200 set 20 or 30 degrees higher may be inline with the JBC at a lower setting as far as actual tip temps, this is entirely possible. It is also possible that the JBC has better temperature regulation. What I wonder is which (temperature or regulation) is more responsible for the results of Dave's test... I suppose you could say both when you are testing at the edge.
I use my ADS200 under a microscope 90%+ of the time and the short tip distance is great.
The third thing is that Pace has more than impressed me on customer service. It is a big thing for me, but when a company goes out of their way to take care of their customer, I notice. I'll be honest, I'm not easy to please as my expectations for customer service are high. So many companies could care less about their customers or customer service so this is not a trivial thing. Their attitude with me has always been completely positive and how can they please their customer.
For me, the bottom line is in its price point, does it excel and do what you are looking for it to do. I came from a WES51 and I loved that iron. The ADS200 is a definite improvement in many ways, especially tip selection. I tried the FX-888 that everyone loves and was very disappointed with it. I know many love it, but I thought my WES51 was better in every way. I almost pulled the trigger on a FX-951 and was thinking about getting the microsoldering iron for it, but went with the ADS200 instead, so I can't comment about how the FX-951 would stack up against it, but I'm very satisfied with the ADS200. I would love to see a FX-951 vs ADS200 review someday, that would apples to apples price wise.
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Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:
- The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
- JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
- Why didn't Dave use the essential Tip Tool? Much easier to remove replace tips than the silicone grip.
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TLDL;
It's not nearly as good thermally as the JBC CD-B, good 20+ degC difference in capability at low temp, I was very surprised. So much for "delivers unsurpassed thermal performance" :-//
So no JBC killer, unless price is your sole driving factor.
Well built though and pretty sexy.
The display has some random number and overshoot weirdness.
Yeah, that PCB layout is kinda weird, but the overall construction quality looks amazing!!!
I'm not sure why the 15 sec setback delay is an issue — isn't that just making sure it doesn't go into setback when you're just setting it down for a second?
I would love to see this station pitted against the Ersa i-Con series. The "full" i-Con models are 120W and use non-cartridge tips, but use a quite precision machined heater core and tips, and the heater goes deep into the tips. Distance-to-tip is also very small. (The "little" i-Con models, the nano and pico, are 80W peak. The nano actually uses the same heater as the big ones, just driven at lower voltage. The pico actually uses a different heater.) Even the little ones have a power bargraph, much like the JBC. They also have configurable power profiles — low avoids any overshoot, so heats gingerly. High heats aggressively and may have significant overshoot. Medium is… a happy middle ground. (I have the nano, and it's a lovely station, but its build quality, while very good, just can't compare to this Pace, which is actually priced about the same.)
Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…
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JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
How do the PACE tips compare in this regard to the Ersa tips? I'm just a hobbyist so I'm sure any tips would last forever for me, but everything I've heard is that Ersa's tips last freaking forever. Is this also due to a thicker iron plating?
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Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:
- The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
Dave has an obsession with fine tuning his tip temperatures rather than getting on with soldering.
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.
I think a Metcal in the lab might give him an aneurysm.
He's got a point about the imperial tip sizes, though. Do everyone a favour, dual label them on the tip and package as well.
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JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
How do the PACE tips compare in this regard to the Ersa tips? I'm just a hobbyist so I'm sure any tips would last forever for me, but everything I've heard is that Ersa's tips last freaking forever. Is this also due to a thicker iron plating?
To be honest, I'm not sure about Ersa, as we don't compete with them in the States too much. But our UK facility has probably done testing on them so I'll get back to you. I suspect they optimize for lead-free and are thus heavily plated, like PACE, and that's the reason they last so long.
Aaron
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He's got a point about the imperial tip sizes, though. Do everyone a favour, dual label them on the tip and package as well.
That is a good point. I will bring it up to the production people!
Aaron
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Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…
I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
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Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…
I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
Concerns about people blowing them up by not being smart enough to look for a switch?
Dual primaries shouldn't be all that much more expensive.. and a switch is a couple bucks at most (in small quantity no less).
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Isn't dual primary type just a matter of winding them with two conductors at the same time (so turn-count matches) and then soldering 4 lugs instead of 2?
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Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:
- The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
High temps are good if you like to have on the tip a totally oxidized solder "paste" that can't flow, if you prefer a beautiful shiny melted alloy that can, around 300°C is the way to go.
- JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
That must be why JBC tips last, literally, decades (when cleaned with moist sponges).
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To be honest, I'm not sure about Ersa, as we don't compete with them in the States too much. But our UK facility has probably done testing on them so I'll get back to you. I suspect they optimize for lead-free and are thus heavily plated, like PACE, and that's the reason they last so long.
Yeah, Ersa seems nearly non-existent in USA, and wildly expensive when it does appear! (Whereas here in Europe, it's fairly common and affordable, and it's Hakko that's marked up like crazy.)
Speaking of facilities, what do you guys still do in Maryland? I vaguely recall that you've got a facility in Elkridge (which I used to live near), and used to be headquartered in Silver Spring (where I lived briefly)! :D
Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…
I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
Cool!
I mean, for that matter, other than capacitors failing, why don't soldering stations use switch mode power supplies? Those eliminate the issue of having to set a voltage. (I have witnessed careless people forget to switch the input selector to 230V and then plug it in, so I definitely can see how that's a concern, as Monkeh pointed out!)
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Speaking of facilities, what do you guys still do in Maryland? I vaguely recall that you've got a facility in Elkridge (which I used to live near), and used to be headquartered in Silver Spring (where I lived briefly)! :D
Yes, I'm located at the Elkridge Maryland site. It's our Engineering and Training Center. However, all ADS200's and tips are manufactured in our main North Carolina factory, not here. We only produce Fume Extraction and higher-end BGA rework equipment here.
Cool!
I mean, for that matter, other than capacitors failing, why don't soldering stations use switch mode power supplies? Those eliminate the issue of having to set a voltage. (I have witnessed careless people forget to switch the input selector to 230V and then plug it in, so I definitely can see how that's a concern, as Monkeh pointed out!)
I'll check it out! Thanks for the comments!
Aaron
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For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
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Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:
- The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.
That's been my experience as well. Despite the advances in conductive soldering equipment technology, tried and true soldering/rework techniques are paramount.
With that mentioned, I do actually use the absolute lowest temperature I can, which means I have been very successful reworking with a 270°C/518°F temp setting. I do this when I can without an IR preheater or with an IR preheater when I feel pre-heating is warranted. The alloys I use allows me to do this with the equipment I have. As usual, there's a wide variety of situations where this setting is completely unrealistic, but I think the idea here is to use the lowest tip temperature possible for each job.
My personal opinion is Pace is an absolute outstanding company with almost everything they do and the ADS200 is another example of that excellence. 8)
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Lowest temp is not always ideal - higher temps can heat to melting point faster ( talking about thermal paths outside the iron) , so less exposure time. Trying to get the lowest temp possible will usually be counterproductive.
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Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:
- The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.
That's been my experience as well. Despite the advances in conductive soldering equipment technology, tried and true soldering/rework techniques are paramount.
With that mentioned, I do actually use the absolute lowest temperature I can, which means I have been very successful reworking with a 270°C/518°F temp setting. I do this when I can without an IR preheater or with an IR preheater when I feel pre-heating is warranted. The alloys I use allows me to do this with the equipment I have. As usual, there's a wide variety of situations where this setting is completely unrealistic, but I think the idea here is to use the lowest tip temperature possible for each job.
My personal opinion is Pace is an absolute outstanding company with almost everything they do and the ADS200 is another example of that excellence. 8)
Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process. That being said, the inertia of bench techs, production operators and their supervisors is to turn the temperature up to maximize throughput and minimize the time it takes to reflow the solder (in either an assembly, rework or removal operation). Concerning the low temperatures used, even back in the eutectic Sn/Pb solder days, our guidance during our training classes was to start everyone out at 316°C or 600°F with solder that melted at 183°C (361°F). I believe Dave was using a Pb-free solder with a melting point of 227°C (441°F) at 270°C? I can’t think of anyone that solders at such a low temp using lead-free solder ... except maybe Dyaxxis? ;-)
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For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
Rotate handle :-DD Yeah, the cord tends to form in one direction, but it's supple enough to quickly form to a new position ;)
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In terms of comparing the ability to deliver power at the set temperature, I guess it's a not-entirely-ridiculous test, but it doesn't really have any bearing on actual soldering performance.
<320C is silly and just leads to spending all your time turning the temperature up and down for different joints.
Technique is far more valuable than varying temperature.
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Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process. That being said, the inertia of bench techs, production operators and their supervisors is to turn the temperature up to maximize throughput and minimize the time it takes to reflow the solder (in either an assembly, rework or removal operation). Concerning the low temperatures used, even back in the eutectic Sn/Pb solder days, our guidance during our training classes was to start everyone out at 316°C or 600°F with solder that melted at 183°C (361°F). I believe Dave was using a Pb-free solder with a melting point of 227°C (441°F) at 270°C? I can’t think of anyone that solders at such a low temp using lead-free solder ... except maybe Dyaxxis? ;-)
To each their own, but then again... there's a variety of factors that DO NOT always allow me to remain at that range. To correct my own misstatement, I'll rephrase by saying "the lowest, most effective temperature possible along with the most optimal dwell time along with tip shapes and other techniques to yield the most reliable joint possible." It's not always a "one technique does all", so I do adjust my temps according if/when necessary.
So, if you are able to solder a joint at a very low temperature, but that solder joint isn't reliable, then I believe you're NOT soldering at the "lowest temperature possible."
Now, I haven't trained directly at Pace's headquarter training facilities, but I was trained with the films/videos in the very late 80's/early 90's (even from the early ones with presenter Paul "Weatherman" Anthony). And yes, your techniques are what I refer to as "de facto" training techniques, but again... procedures may change "when we leave the training room..." 8)
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I have been using my ADS-200 daily since it was delivered in April with the original rev 1-0 software.
It is an amazing value for the money and one rock solid piece of equipment. Support from Pace had been responsive while sorting out the early issues (which in reality caused me no downtime whatsoever).
Yes, like anything, it has some very minor flaws, but certainly nothing that is costing me any performance or productivity. For me it is a great tool.
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For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
Rotate handle :-DD Yeah, the cord tends to form in one direction, but it's supple enough to quickly form to a new position ;)
We looked at the possibility of a freely rotating tip. Our final design was influenced by Engineering & time-to-market concerns. First of all, there are many customers that love our stationary tip design, and we have yet to receive one complaint about this on our older stations. For example, many of our military customers require a non-rotating tip to deal with conformally coated and bonded components (you gently turn the handle along with custom 4-sided tips to break the bond under surface mounted components), which won't work on say, a Metcal handpiece. But the rotating "feature" was reconsidered when Engineers estimated it would take over a year to redesign/manufacture/test the tips and resulting iron, which would have delayed introduction of the ADS200 by up to 18 months.
My own preference is for a non-rotating tip, but hey, I'm a PACE-guy!
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Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko. (heh, I guess my lingo shows a few grey hairs..) :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn7eW-5MPNw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn7eW-5MPNw)
Give a like, and consider subbing to the channel (they may even be on our EEVblog YouTubers list.. Bulah?)
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Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?
Marketing terminology I guess. FWIW, my Weller gear reminds me of this (WD1 base unit had user settable timers), but add in the optional setback stand, and even more settings come into play.
Makes it rather customizable, but also a bit confusing. Definitely RTFM territory.
But note that it was never our intention to design a "JBC Killer" ... we just wanted to produce a solid, low cost, reliable soldering station...[snip].
As Dave mentioned in his review, perhaps a better comparison would be against the Hakko 951. From a cost of ownership basis, JBC is double the price for the initial cost and more than double the price of our tips, so we need to have realistic expectations. We will be successful in 90-95% of the applications, and against the competition, even JBC, in standard applications.
From what I see, it does need a few kinks worked out in software, but you've otherwise accomplished that IMHO. The comparison between the ADS200 and FX-951 is certainly valid for those in the US/CAN market. Harder in other markets, but I'd really like to see it paired against an Ersa i-Con 1 or 2 (150W using conventional plated tips).
As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).
For example, the 600F/316C for low temp cases, 700F/371C for the vast majority of soldering cases, and 800F/427C for the really high demand stuff was commonplace in lead-based processes for this purpose. And the fact that 315C, 325C, and 350C are the standards I've seen for lead-free alloys, this still seems to be the case (though 350C seems to be the most common).
Either way, the set temps are at least 100C above the alloy's melting point (i.e. 183C for 63/37 or 217C for SAC305).
Bit of a side note, I'd rather see metric sizing than imperial for tip labels as I find it easier to picture 2.4mm than 3/32".
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Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.
When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos. It is hard to find anything more stupid then wasting digital content space this way. In this case it was 18 minutes of unboxing and 4 minutes of review.
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:-DD
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.
When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos. It is hard to find anything more stupid then wasting digital content space this way. In this case it was 18 minutes of unboxing and 4 minutes of review.
:-DD !!!
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I'd like to judge for myself, my unit has been paid since three months up here in Montreal.
When are units heading up here?
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I'd like to judge for myself, my unit has been paid since three months up here in Montreal.
When are units heading up here?
Which distributor did you buy from?
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Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.
When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos..
Novice YouTubers often take bad user reviews personally and have to start somewhere.. :-+
(not everyone's a Teflon like Dave 8) IMHO, most EE's and tech's are introverted and camera-shy - we take what we can get..)
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Which distributor did you buy from?
Accessotronik.
TIA!
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Which distributor did you buy from?
Accessotronik.
TIA!
Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada. I doubt serious it's their fault, probably a delay on our side as we're playing catch up with all the orders. Several key distributors have ordered hundreds of ADS stations and thousands of Tips since production restarted in early June, which has bogged us down. I'll check it out and get back to you!
Aaron
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Which distributor did you buy from?
Accessotronik.
TIA!
Dont they claim they have it in stock? I checked just yesterday.
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Dont they claim they have it in stock? I checked just yesterday.
Hmmm ... I'll check it out with the owner and see if it somehow slipped through the cracks.
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Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada.
Then they better educate themselves on Customer Service. My experience with them was rough. Can you imagine placing a WEB order, waiting several days , no order shipping, no nothing, sending email inquiries to only receive "I am away at a conference and will process your order after my return" type of reply. PoS company. It is what, one man show? Do they want make sales or rub their arrogant asses in chairs at conferences.
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The one with the ISB stand is "In stock soon. Order now to get in line. First come first served."
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Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada.
Then they better educate themselves on Customer Service. My experience with them was rough. Can you imagine placing a WEB order, waiting several days , no order shipping, no nothing, sending email inquiries to only receive "I am away at a conference and will process your order after my return" type of reply. PoS company. It is what, one man show? Do they want make sales or rub their arrogant asses in chairs at conferences.
This is very unusual for Accessotronik. They have at least 10 employees, 2 locations and people on the road throughout Canada. Likely a fluke from my experience.
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What Dave says is true, whenever I swap tips in my SL2020 I often have to adjust rotation a bit further left or right.
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The one with the ISB stand is "In stock soon. Order now to get in line. First come first served."
Alex,
I just contacted the owner and he will take care of it. Again, I suspect this more of a PACE issue as the ADS200 with ISB Tool Stands were the last items to be cleared for shipment in June. Expect a call or contact from a Accessotronik Representative named Fred Gravel tomorrow.
Thanks for your patience (darn, I hate having to say this so much!)
Aaron
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As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).
I'm not suggesting that You turn down the temp and sacrifice the quality of the joint, I thought that was obvious? (maybe not it seems)
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Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process.
I did not imply that you should turn down the temperature such that it sacrifices soldering quality, I thought that was obvious?
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If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?
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I would say yes...
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Why has Dave's video been taken down?
No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?
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I got 5 mins in before it was yanked.
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I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC? It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
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I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC? It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
As heat transfers from the tip to the work, the tip cools, and the sensor then detects the cooling, and the MCU then sends more power to the heater.
But, if there is no solder bridge because the temperature of the work is below reflow, heat can't move out of the tip, so the sensor stays hot, and power doesn't increase. It's the same reason that you can't solder with a dry tip and need to touch the solder to the tip before feeding it onto a pad.
The tip geometry, composition, and plating determine the thermal resistance, RT in °C/W: the temperature difference required per watt of heat transfer. On a workpiece with a heavy ground, more heat transfer is needed to keep the solder molten, so the tip must be hotter.
One of Pace's comments indicates that their tips are higher RT compared to JBC, because they have heavier plating.
In other words, it's a false belief that you can keep a low tip temperature on any kind of work, just because you have the ability to supply high power. The RT means that the minimum usable tip temperature is always higher for heavier workpieces.
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From the video, it seems to me the PACE control loop is taking too long to update power as an ƒ(temp), in the scope you can see the JBC feeding more power every few (mains) cycles, in the PACE it's more like only a couple times/second or so instead. That may be too slow if the rate at which the ground plane cools the tip is faster than that.
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I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC? It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
Because the thicker iron plating has higher thermal resistance and therefore the temperature of the solder on the ground plane is much lower, so the tip is effectively "dropping" that temperature. Just like the old style contact tips have a higher thermal resistance again. It's the basic resistor-thermal analogy. I prefer the lowest thermal resistance in the tip I can get, so that the displayed temperature is at least closer to the actual joint temperature. Tip life be damned. But as always, YMMV.
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Why has Dave's video been taken down?
No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?
No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.
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If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?
Yes. No matter how good your soldering iron and tip, the actual temperature of the joint always drops due the unavoidable thermal resistance.
Cue the Metcal induction fanboys...
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"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".
Just ad lib, you could be talking about setpoint accuracy, setpoint variance, ready time from standby, recovery time, overshoot, or energy efficiency: these are all thermal performance parameters. Different users will weigh these factors differently, according to their preferences and needs.
For both thermal conductivity and total heat delivery, it's very hard to match a Weller D550 with a solid 12ga. copper wire! But such a tool has limited application to modern electronics.
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Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.
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Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story. Great ergonomics handpiece and low oxidating tips will do it.
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Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story.
Problem is that's a really long term experiment. I don't know of way to accelerate it that would realistic?
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"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".
Sure, but few people are going to argue that temperature drop on the the tip (a.k.a tip thermal resistance) isn't one of the main criteria for determining thermal performance.
Indeed, soldering irons are split into two design camps (three if you include induction based tips like Metcal) entirely based on this concept alone.
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Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=479234;image)
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Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Really looking out for the users on this forum. :-DD
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Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.
So they do stack!
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Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.
Not cheap to get one here in Oz, like $500 or something.
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Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Hakko have basically the same mark-up here. i.e. the FX-951 is $542 AUD ex GST
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Dave your power meter froze it seems while measuring the JBC.
Did you notice any slight temp overshoot while measuring the JBCs recovery on the thermometer?
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So they do stack!
Here ya go!
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So they do stack!
Here ya go!
PACE is thinking!
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So they do stack!
Here ya go!
Nice!
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No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.
Hi Dave,
As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.
Aaron
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As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.
Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.
Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.
I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".
And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.
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As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.
Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.
Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.
I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".
And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.
"We deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance": ... there I said it! But I won't market that, heh heh heh.
Watching the new version right now!
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...As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.
Aaron
That's a very valid point Aaron. In regards to the JBC manual, they do have a temp adjustment procedure as well as a notice when changing cartridge types. I actually follow this procedure dependent upon my individual experience to attempt to reduce the variation observed in alank2's pictures (as well as the +5 C difference in Dave's revised video). It is a bit of a hassle, but I'm okay with it.
It's good to see that the ADS 200 (which I have on order 8)) can achieve the precise set tip temp right out of the box, as well as having a "Temperature Match" feature. I'd really like to see how AccuDrive works without accessing that feature when changing between significantly different tip types. I'm positive that the ADS will regulate the temp very close to the set temp, but I'll need to wait until Pace offers AccuDrive "specialty tips" to test this feature.
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Hi Dave,
Just watched the video, and I think it's a fair and balanced review! Thanks for the revisions!
Aaron
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So they do stack!
Here ya go!
Nice!
What I like about seeing those two units "stacked" with each other has me thinking about this...
For the Pace Worldwide North American web portal, there's a simple comparison I've made:
- 2 ADS 200's with ISB stands could cost roughly 530 USD
- 1 ST 100 without the ISB stands is currently priced at 614.85 USD
- 2 ST 50's with ISB stands could cost roughly 680.80 USD
- 2 WJS 100 without ISB could cost 718.94 USD
Yeah, I know... not really "apples-to-apples" comparison amongst distinct features between all of the units in the list, but it's nice to see how 2 ADS 200's could work out much cheaper than the previous technology units. 8)
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Loved the sponge recovery testing Dave!
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Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Really looking out for the users on this forum. :-DD
How strict is Australian customs? Have someone ship you a "used" one with very low miles. :-+
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Loved the sponge recovery testing Dave!
Someone has a job flattening sponges? ;D
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Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Really looking out for the users on this forum. :-DD
How strict is Australian customs? Have someone ship you a "used" one with very low miles. :-+
..or maybe Jonestronics will have a deal, didn't someone say they currently have an overstock on tips? :popcorn:
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Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Really looking out for the users on this forum. :-DD
Presjar,
Sorry I missed your entry. Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397. Mektronics must then ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus you have to add on duty, taxes, Customs etc. After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging.
Aaron
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How does active rectification work on this station? Does anyone have a schematic?
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There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
*edit - 4 of these: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf (https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf)
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There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
Cliff is correct.
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There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
*edit - 4 of these: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf (https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf)
But how is it driven? :). I wonder if there is something better (=cheaper) than lt4320...
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There's a good argument here for a serious distributor to bite the bullet and ship a pallet load of them by ocean freight. It is significantly cheaper.
Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Really looking out for the users on this forum. :-DD
Presjar,
Sorry I missed your entry. Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397. Mektronics must then ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus you have to add on duty, taxes, Customs etc. After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging.
Aaron
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Hi PACE-Worldwide
Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%! :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD
Really looking out for the users on this forum. :-DD
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.
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Pretty cool, looks like I'm getting mine tomorrow, with 3 extra freebie tips of my choice. :-+
Thanks Aaron!
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Pretty cool, looks like I'm getting mine tomorrow, with 3 extra freebie tips of my choice. :-+
Thanks Aaron!
Great ... My understanding is that is was indeed PACE's fault, they ordered the ADS200 with ISB Tool Stand in mid June and just received them yesterday! Accessotronik is really a great group of people to work with.
Aaron
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You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.
That's a pretty amazing price!
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I have a feeling we'll be seeing 3rd party firmware and even 3rd party drop-in PCB's for the ADS200.
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You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.
Or spot on 30% and they just want to clear them out and not carry it any more?
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Dunno about that, a few months ago I saw that the same JBC irons were on sale for about the same price at Mektronics. They seem to have sales for their soldering irons kinda often? I know the fx-951 was on sale pretty recently too.
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As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).
I'm not suggesting that You turn down the temp and sacrifice the quality of the joint, I thought that was obvious? (maybe not it seems)
It was actually. :)
My comments had to do with keeping such a low temp on the pad/hole so long that the epoxy bond between the FR4 and copper foil broke free, despite the low temp setting. Subsequently allowing an operator, such as myself, to tear pads & traces off the PCB. :palm:
FWIW, this isn't a hypothesis. BTDT and burnt the box of T-shirts. Top quality US made PCB's, so can't blame it on crap boards. Just my shitty skills at that time. |O
Worse yet, I missed this fact at first during the beginnings of my first professional job, thus amplifying the probem (process engineering fell under my purview). :-[ I was so fortunate that others in the company spotted what was going on and explained to me where I'd gone wrong. Not just by an explanation, but by both demonstration as well as full access to an SEM to show me what was truly going on via cross-sections. :phew: I learned so much at that time.... ;D
FWIW, the company involved was Martin Marietta, just prior to the transition to Lockheed Martin (I replaced a 42yr. veteran* who quite literally gave his entire professional life to the company = was given the choice to "take it or you get nothing" retirement options). :--
I learned so much more than I could ever pass on I expect. Not many of them left, which truly makes me sad (not only great engineers, but some of the best human beings I've ever had the privilege of having known). :(
* This may not mean squat to anyone else, but I miss you old man. You went too soon. :'(
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Great video presentation. Well done. But...
I hate these kinds of reviews, because without ever having even used it, one can't possibly know the first thing about how well the thing solders, how well the setback works, how hot the handle gets (when it's actually soldering things and pumping out the watts), or how good is the tip selection. It turns into so much opinion. Unfortunately, you would actually have to have a lot of soldering to do to really get a feel, and most people just don't have that need on a regular basis.
Hilarious the "hi, hi, hi" bit. That is annoying for sure. But you don't look at the display when you are actually soldering. One of my T12 clones flashes random numbers while heating up, and I never held that against it. One of my Hakko clones showed perfectly linear and insanely quick ramp up to the set temp, pretty much flipping through every single degree on the way up. Which was obviously a complete farce. About 10 seconds after it hit the set temp, you might actually be able to melt solder.
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Hello!
Good video by Dave as usual but I would like to point few things, after waiting for this product to come out for some time now...
1) Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.
2) Iron plating thickness "issue" claim is absolute bullshit unless you are using your soldering iron to dig holes in your garden.
At work, I use JBC iron that is on all the time. I have bunch of tips that are 4-5 years old and they are still in good condition despite heavy use. I have large size tips that I use to burn trough litz wire insulation or trough Triple insulated wire all the time. I often apply a lot of pressure to push the thick trafo pins out of large copper surfaces and so far I have not damaged or destroyed a single tip.
I would expect similar lifetimes from both JBC and Pace.
2.5) JBC tips are affordable. They are already between 20-30 euro, however there are constant offers from suppliers, as well as different shops on ebay in EU that offer them for under 20Euro.
3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...
3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.
4) Handles... I like the handle design but "improving" or claiming indestructibility, or implying that competition's product is feeble and just falls apart is nonsense. JBC handles are very strong and thin. They also offer different grips you can attach and I find them quite comfortable.
Anyways, I am a little bit disappointed by this product, from a reputable company. It would do the job, but it just does not look like a well developed product.
Presently JBC is a better offer for money at least in EU.
Furthermore,
Someone mentioned using wide-range SMPS in soldering stations. I believe companies that produce soldering stations are not up to such challenge. While it is possible, and they could blow any current product out of the field in terms of speed of response, and temperature stability and controllability, they would have to deal with very complicated EMC and safety standards, and most likely they would not do it well.
Furthermore, they would have to change their temperature control method (it would become very complicated), because SMPS do not like high AC loads. Output caps would suffer and limit the lifetime of device drastically. It is far from impossible, but many fail at simple 50Hz-Triac method that current controlled SMPS would be like asking for a space-x rocket from a corner store bakery.
50Hz trafo is a very reasonable approach, simple because it is robust, safe and cheap.
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3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...
3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.
I don't know who you are, but I like you already. I feel the same way. It's a soldering iron. You can write a dead-easy round robin program to monitor keypresses, process input information, set display, set force values, and it would all fit into maybe 3K. The PCB design looks ... unskilled. Definitely someone on their first few PCBs ever.
Then again, large companies that make toaster ovens also can't seem to debounce rotary selector switches correctly, companies that make microwave ovens can't make a reliable keypad, washing machines that flash error codes that aren't in the manual, etc...
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Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.
It's supposed to be 225 euro list price for the 230V standard model. Dealers are possibly just listing it for whatever price they want to at the moment. Noone was even comparing it to a JBC anyway just the power spec is similar. Dave took that from this thread (that Cliff made up) and ran with it on his video. Cliff could have wrote Apple iWatch killer for all the difference it makes.
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They seem to have used a lot of.... parts. why an active rectifier? just PWM the element and measure the temperature the ADC in most micro-controllers would surely suffice? and a bit of consideration to board layout. Were there vent holes in the back at the top? one set of holes will not be the most effective.
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They seem to have used a lot of.... parts. why an active rectifier? just PWM the element and measure the temperature the ADC in most micro-controllers would surely suffice? and a bit of consideration to board layout. Were there vent holes in the back at the top? one set of holes will not be the most effective.
Yes it has vent slots at the rear as well.
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Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.
It's supposed to be 225 euro list price for the 230V standard model. Dealers are possibly just listing it for whatever price they want to at the moment. Noone was even comparing it to a JBC anyway just the temp spec is similar. Dave took that from the title of Cliffs thread. Cliff could have wrote Apple iWatch killer for all the difference it makes.
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).
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I can't help but wonder if the thermal performance could be improved with a better designed control circuit?
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:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).
I'm not telling you to, but it does draw a lot of attention from JBC users though :scared:.
I wasn't interested in a JBC at all when I was considering the Pace. It's not because it was JBC. I don't like fancy hard to replace blue displays, stand being anchored to the side of the station, price and tip cost. I also prefer if gear has jelly bean parts least I need to repair it easily out of warranty.
That's not hating on JBC, it's just not what I wanted. I also wanted a dual iron station so I made a compromise and got two ADS200s.
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Hello!
Good video by Dave as usual but I would like to point few things, after waiting for this product to come out for some time now...
1) Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...
2.5) JBC tips are affordable. They are already between 20-30 euro, however there are constant offers from suppliers, as well as different shops on ebay in EU that offer them for under 20Euro.
You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...
What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.
Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.
Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)
And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.
4) Handles... I like the handle design but "improving" or claiming indestructibility, or implying that competition's product is feeble and just falls apart is nonsense. JBC handles are very strong and thin. They also offer different gripsrt. you can attach and I find them quite comfortable.
Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
Someone mentioned using wide-range SMPS in soldering stations. I believe companies that produce soldering stations are not up to such challenge. While it is possible, and they could blow any current product out of the field in terms of speed of response, and temperature stability and controllability, they would have to deal with very complicated EMC and safety standards, and most likely they would not do it well.
Furthermore, they would have to change their temperature control method (it would become very complicated), because SMPS do not like high AC loads. Output caps would suffer and limit the lifetime of device drastically. It is far from impossible, but many fail at simple 50Hz-Triac method that current controlled SMPS would be like asking for a space-x rocket from a corner store bakery.
50Hz trafo is a very reasonable approach, simple because it is robust, safe and cheap.
I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.
SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)
And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)
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I think JBC has more aggressive D part of PID.. It probably has more of an overshoot. Also it poses the question if there is such thing as too fast recovery..
There are stations now that deliberately make temp recovery slower, to minimize thermal shock on components. Some Ersa stations have a three level setting for thermal recovery inertia..
I think Pace is good enough for general work, on par or slightly better than Hakko. Good choice of tips and good tip prices.
JBC tips are very expensive, they sell tips for tweezers individually..
But , more or less, you can get Ersa, or Hakko or PACE and get a good tool.
What I want to see if this ADS200 station will accept thermal tweezers.
With every manufacturer, tweezers demand different power unit. If this PACE ADS200 will accept micro tweezers, and you give a good choice of inexpensive tweezer tips... That's a winner.
LED display is awesome. User interface is meh, adequate...
So for me if there will be good and affordable tweezers that I can connect directly to ADS200 power unit so I don't have to buy separate PSU is a winner..
Also, nobody makes power unit with two iron sockets, but with a switch, to select iron 1 or 2 only one at the time. Todays units are so fast, you could switch back and forth with a switch.
If you release tweezers for ADS200 I might just buy ADS200 and tweezers and make something like that externally...
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With every manufacturer, tweezers demand different power unit. If this PACE ADS200 will accept micro tweezers, and you give a good choice of inexpensive tweezer tips... That's a winner.
LED display is awesome. User interface is meh, adequate...
So for me if there will be good and affordable tweezers that I can connect directly to ADS200 power unit so I don't have to buy separate PSU is a winner..
Also, nobody makes power unit with two iron sockets, but with a switch, to select iron 1 or 2 only one at the time. Todays units are so fast, you could switch back and forth with a switch.
If you release tweezers for ADS200 I might just buy ADS200 and tweezers and make something like that externally...
Thanks for the comments. A new Thermal Tweezer is in the works but will not be available until at least Oct/Nov and will only work on the ADS200.
Aaron
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So I guess "No JBCs were harmed in the making of this thread. This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events, locales, and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual unsurpassed thermal performance is purely coincidental."
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He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...
Well we are comparing SOME prices, and I like to compare prices that I would be charged, not some wishlist wholesale prices. I think that is fair.
We were told it would be around 200USD or 200Euro. And so far I have not seen these prices anywhere. Presently this product costs as much as JBC in EU and in AU, so I think the comparison is fair.
If Pace becomes 100Euro in the future, i would recommend it as an incredible value for money, but now it is just not!
You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
Please send me a link to a 10 Euro chisel Pace tip?
And yes, tip price of 20-30 euro IS affordable. An engineer lives and dies by his tools, so 20E is nothing for a tool that you will use for years if not decades. I love to have good selection of tips for all jobs.
What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
Modern uController offers many advantages, that I do not have time or desire to go into here. But more importantly, using an obsolete micro and quite frankly wasting money on unnecessary components elsewhere is a statement of just simply bad and unprofessional level of design. At the very best, done by someone inexperienced.
It should be fixed already. I do not want to re-flash my tools, or have weekly updates. Again, it is a soldering station, not a smartphone...
Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.
Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)
And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.
I will not comment on your personal taste or preference, but you just used "strawman" logical fallacy by assuming I want JBC style interface.
I was not commenting on JBC display or ERSA, or WELLER... I said the user interface is dated. I have seen dirt cheap Chinese products with proper interface and a clear display, so it CAN be done for a price. (one more advange of using modern uControllers)
Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
It was a slight hyperbole but not much. One of their advertising point in their materials is "THE QUALITY", as well here it was mentioned many times about the effort of redesigning the handle completely. While I appreciate attention to details, it somehow feels like they have missed many, and I say many a weak spots of this product.
Again it is evidence of amateurism.
I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.
SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)
And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)
Wrong again. Actually to get a professional level SMPS, well tested and reliable, and to make it for a price. To pass approvals and safety test, takes about 1-1.5 years of work of one or two competent engineers.
You are suggesting they should simply replace 50Hz trafo with a fixed output voltage, wide input range SMPS designed by 3rd party. That might be too expensive, AND/OR would require heavy filtering on the output of the smps and the result would still be sh*t with compromised limited lifetime. I was talking about AC load not AC output current, but ok, pulsed load if you wish...
It is far from unsolvable problem, it is matter of money spent of filtering, but standard of the shelf power supplies would have a lot of trouble with 100Hz pulse load because output caps would see entire ripple current.
It is very hard to find a well designed SMPS in the class D amps now that you mentioned it.
A smart way to do this would be to incorporate SMPS controll loop into the control of the tip temperature. You would have a current output smps, that is controlled by a temperature control loop. And all this could even be done digitally with the modern uController.
That is why I said they would have to change their temperature control method.
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I'm not entirely impressed by the Pace's construction, but the lower TCO due to the tips being reasonably priced and probably longer lasting is very attractive. When you get to the nicer bits of kit, it's all about TCO. The initial purchase price really isn't that relevant.
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Welectron:
Ultra 1131-0055-P1 (6.35mm Chisel)13.82 €
JBC C245-966 Soldering Tip 6.5x1.7mm Chisel 21.43 €
Ultra 1131-0008-P1 (1.20mm 30° Chisel)13.82 €
JBC C210-008 Soldering Tip 1.3x0.6mm Chisel 29.33 €
So yes there is difference, especially if you want to buy a collection of tips
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He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...
Well we are comparing SOME prices, and I like to compare prices that I would be charged, not some wishlist wholesale prices. I think that is fair.
We were told it would be around 200USD or 200Euro. And so far I have not seen these prices anywhere. Presently this product costs as much as JBC in EU and in AU, so I think the comparison is fair.
If Pace becomes 100Euro in the future, i would recommend it as an incredible value for money, but now it is just not!
Nobody said it would be $200. The MSRP is around $240 and the street price so far is between $220-240. You are basically angry that they didn't meet a price point that you imagined in your head.
Edit: Here's the link to Pace's actual statement on prices: "The ADS200 is only US$239/€ 225/£199 each vs WJS 100 US$360/€ 325/£265 each!" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1468988/#msg1468988)
What their regional distributors do is out of their control. Yeah, it sucks that many of them mark things up insanely, but it's not Pace's fault. (Believe me, this stuff angers me all the time, I live in Switzerland, famous for high markups. At least it's gotten better over the past 25 years…)
You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
Please send me a link to a 10 Euro chisel Pace tip?
And yes, tip price of 20-30 euro IS affordable. An engineer lives and dies by his tools, so 20E is nothing for a tool that you will use for years if not decades. I love to have good selection of tips for all jobs.
Tips aren't the part you use for decades. They're consumables, and you may need lots of them.
What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
Modern uController offers many advantages, that I do not have time or desire to go into here. But more importantly, using an obsolete micro and quite frankly wasting money on unnecessary components elsewhere is a statement of just simply bad and unprofessional level of design. At the very best, done by someone inexperienced.
If you're unwilling to list any advantages of a modern MCU, then I'm unwilling to accept your argument.
It should be fixed already. I do not want to re-flash my tools, or have weekly updates. Again, it is a soldering station, not a smartphone...
Agreed that the firmware seems a bit rushed. It also seems they're running into issues due to this being their first foray into lower cost markets, and thus suddenly being exposed to the different expectations of the hobbyist user group.
Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.
Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)
And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.
I will not comment on your personal taste or preference, but you just used "strawman" logical fallacy by assuming I want JBC style interface.
I was not commenting on JBC display or ERSA, or WELLER... I said the user interface is dated. I have seen dirt cheap Chinese products with proper interface and a clear display, so it CAN be done for a price. (one more advange of using modern uControllers)
You said it was dated, and I basically agreed. My question was basically as to whether the new interfaces are actually superior, because I think they're often not.
Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
It was a slight hyperbole but not much. One of their advertising point in their materials is "THE QUALITY", as well here it was mentioned many times about the effort of redesigning the handle completely. While I appreciate attention to details, it somehow feels like they have missed many, and I say many a weak spots of this product.
Again it is evidence of amateurism.
You keep calling them inexperienced and amateurs, but they've been in this business for 60 years.
I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.
SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)
And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)
Wrong again. Actually to get a professional level SMPS, well tested and reliable, and to make it for a price. To pass approvals and safety test, takes about 1-1.5 years of work of one or two competent engineers.
So… what am I wrong about? LMAO. Sounds to me like you like to cry "WRONG" for the fun of it, completely unrelated to factual accuracy.
Are you saying it's cheaper, faster, and safer to design a PSU in-house than to outsource it to a specialist company? Yeah, right. I have a bridge to sell you…
You are suggesting they should simply replace 50Hz trafo with a fixed output voltage, wide input range SMPS designed by 3rd party.
I asked about it because I am curious as to why soldering stations have remained with linear power supplies while nearly every other type of product has moved to SMPSs, which have many advantages. It's a valid question.
Your followup comments imply to me that you continue to be not on the same page, I think we're discussing very different things somehow. I don't think you've really understood my point.
That might be too expensive, AND/OR would require heavy filtering on the output of the smps and the result would still be sh*t with compromised limited lifetime. I was talking about AC load not AC output current, but ok, pulsed load if you wish…
Again: what the fuck does an "AC load" mean? A heater is a resistive load, it's neither inherently AC nor DC.
Why would it need heavy filtering? A resistive heater has a ton of thermal inertia, so there's really no need for heavy filtering at all.
It is far from unsolvable problem, it is matter of money spent of filtering, but standard of the shelf power supplies would have a lot of trouble with 100Hz pulse load because output caps would see entire ripple current.
It is very hard to find a well designed SMPS in the class D amps now that you mentioned it.
Hahahah yeah, right. Then how come power supplies routinely handle exactly such loads?
A smart way to do this would be to incorporate SMPS controll loop into the control of the tip temperature. You would have a current output smps, that is controlled by a temperature control loop. And all this could even be done digitally with the modern uController.
That is why I said they would have to change their temperature control method.
You mean using tip temp feedback directly in the SMPS control loop? That'd be interesting for sure. More complicated than anything I envisioned, but presumably more efficient.
Oh, here we go again with the "modern MCU" schpiel… give it a rest.
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It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.
Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
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As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
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I think JBC has more aggressive D part of PID.. It probably has more of an overshoot. Also it poses the question if there is such thing as too fast recovery..
Idk, but not having overshoot was a marketing program of JBC. They even produced some plots, you can google their report.
PS poor jbc, looks like people really try hard to find flaws in their irons just because of provoking thread title.
PPS I'm happy user of a t12 clone :P
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As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Well, it’s obvious, you’re going to have to order another. That one is taken. (Beautiful kitty, by the way!! <3 )
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It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.
Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.
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Nothing wrong with a linear power supply. In fact, I prefer a linear supply and Class A amplifiers too. Linear supplies are simple and reliable. Who cares about efficiency? Not me. I feel like I'm getting more for my money when there's a heavy transformer inside. All the top brands of soldering stations still use linear supplies.
SMPS power supplies are more complicated and have reliability issues, EMI problems etc. Judging by the failures I've seen, they're hard on filter caps and they fail catastrophically. All those cheapo T12 clone stations use SMPS supplies. No thanks.
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It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.
Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.
I think it's also that not very many of us are using them as production irons so we're not blowing through the plating as quickly.
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"No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...
This is not just harsh, it's a little-off base. We just watched Dave open up multiple sealed tips, set the temp, and BAM. Like magic, they measured within 1 degree of the set temp. That is impressive, in itself. Sample of only what, 2? or 3? But they hit the mark. Hakko made a station that did this (I don't know if it was as spot on), but they needed to put a barcode on the different sized/shaped tips. And last I checked, they dropped the whole idea.
Then the modern micro thing? Firstly, what does that matter? Second, which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC? Finally, why in the world do you think the hardware is causing the temp to jump? What makes you think the temp is jumping, at all? As far as anyone knows, simply from watching this video, the iron was doing exactly what it was supposed to. It could be a software thing that affects only the display.
Can you tell us what you have used USB interface for on your JBC?
As far as iron plating and set temp, there's only 2 things that I care about, here. Yes, like Dave, I aim for the lowest temp that works, properly, for the task at hand. But as far as "damage to components," that is typically not even on my radar. The temp is only one part of the equation (and set temp isn't equal to the temp the joint gets!). The other part is dwell time. So when the joint flows, you remove the iron. It's not rocket science.
Back to the 2 thing that matter. The reason for the lowest temp that works is tip life and how fast does the tip crust over and oxidize. So at this temp..
1. How long do the tips last?
2. How often do I have to stop and clean the tip due to oxidation and/or burnt flux to keep it working?
You have to do a lot of soldering to find out.
Pace traditionally makes irons for production work. To put in perspective, Metcal/Thermaltronics recommend their 700F series tips for general purpose including leadfree. The average set temp (probably depending on tip size/shape) is? Wait for it.... 370C. Metcal are also well regarded in production soldering environments.
The fact that JBC will melt the leadfree on a big ground plane at 285C (with a beastly huge tip)? Unless the tip lasts significantly longer and requires less frequent cleaning, it's nothing but a fancy parlor trick.
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First of all, that is one nice kitty :)
@Tooki
You are right regarding the price. I did not check the advertised numbers for some time. I remembered it was around 200E. So it was 225E. However current prices are what they are.
I was commenting on what I see online regarding offers. And so far there is only one store that is holding these (welectron !?), until today I did not know this shop, but they have Pace. Are there any others that currently have ads200 in stock.
You are basically angry that they didn't meet a price point that you imagined in your head.
You are assuming my state of mind and my motivations. Please do not do that because I do not get emotionally invested in a simple commodity or into internet discussions. It is a stupid soldering station not cure for cancer. I was simply commenting on one aspect of what was advertised vs delivered.
You asked a question of using SMPS in soldering stations. It is perfectly valid question. I asked myself that previously as well..
There are a LOT of drawbacks to using smps, not the least of which is that they are complicated.
Compared to 100-200W standard 50Hz trafo, SMPS will almost always be more expensive and less efficient.
Older soldering stations as well as JBCs have one active component, a triac, or in this new PACE mosfet bridge that is much more efficient but still nice and simple to control. They do not even need a heatsink for the bridge since they switch them at 0V crossing.
SMPS will have between 3-5 switching components, and all of them will have more losses. Radiated and conducted noise are going to be much higher and subject to become a problem over time...
Standard SMPS has around 200 components. As you said, there is no chance they could assemble them inhouse. They would have to source them from 1 company, while they can get their trafo from 100 companies produced to their specifications. SMPS might have to be custom made by the supplier to fit their housing, and it is hard to find a supplier willing to do that job since approvals will have to be redone, unless volumes involved are very high.
Prices of the trafos will probably not change while prices of SMPS are not as stable. Lead times during past 2 years are insanely high for magnetics as well as semiconductors...
Simple trafo has a good power factor. It is much more safer and more reliable. It will work in 100 years as well as it works today. No lifetime limiting elcaps. One elco usually found is powering a micro, and other low power electronics. From a volume point of view for 100ish W 50Hz trafo might even be smaller.
I believe you misunderstood my comment about filtering, it has nothing to do with thermal mass of the tip...
Heater is a fixed value, and output of the PSU is a fixed voltage. For duty cyle 100% lets say that is 100W. if you want to lower the power to 10W, you switch it with 10% duty cycle. In switching moment the output elko will see high peak current (I called it ac load because from the PSU side you will see those AC peaks trough the output elkos, while I admit pulsed load is better term it might be due language), despite being 10W only the ripple of the elkos will be the same. For higher switching frequencies losses and problems rise exponentially.
@KL27x
Stm32 and dsPICs have internal 16bit micro, and if your thermocouple amplifier is solid, you will get the same "magic" :)
You do not need USB, but you get it for free, so your customers can update the firmware when you publish it. No way to update pace.
Pleasant weekend!
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As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
I see you've similar lab assistants. :o >:D
If I can get the lot to settle just long enough for a photo, I'll post it. Unfortunately, mine are both clever and camera shy enough that this will be a tough task.
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Elecktropionir: Obvious circuit/PCB design guy. Am I right? Just put the little bits on there, and then those other dudes just make the rest happen. :)
(Also, when I see the display/temp thing, I'm super inclined to think it's software, not hardware.) :)
Good weekend!
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Quote from: elektropionir on Today at 07:59:42 pm (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=102389.msg1688600#msg1688600)
@KL27x
Stm32 and dsPICs have internal 16bit micro, and if your thermocouple amplifier is solid, you will get the same "magic" :)
You do not need USB, but you get it for free, so your customers can update the firmware when you publish it.
No way to update pace.
I think Aaron covered that in #55 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1464603/#msg1464603) (and maybe another thread?). When required, they send it along with PLCC tweezers.
*edit Another post over on EEV#1106 here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1685777/#msg1685777 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1685777/#msg1685777)
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If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting :popcorn:
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I actually love the user interface (button, up, down) and LED display. If you look in Dave's video, you can always see the ADS200 clearly and JBC's screen though an advanced one with more info on it, is a pain to read. I think the UI is clean, simple, and solid.
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:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).
Nah! You're good! It's just a title for good kicks and a good way to see how any and all manufacturers will do their very best! :-+
I'm just rolling with it. 8)
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Thanks, Taz is a gentle giant of a cat. He likes everything except being brushed, if you can tell.
I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.
1) It does deliver tons of heat. If you ignore the display jumping around and just use the thing, it does provide great thermal performance. I tried melting solder onto a piece of double sided copper clad, using a 13/64" Ultra tip. It's faster than my Hakko 936 set to the same 700F. But the 936 is melting the solder too, just a bit slower. Using the huge 5/16" Ultra tip I was able to almost instantly melt solder onto a Canadian dime.
2) It heats up in seconds, my Hakko takes tens of seconds.
3) While the iron is small and light, the cord weighs more than the iron. Feels a bit odd. But it fits nice in the hand and the distance to the tip is much better for smaller work than the 936.
4) The ISB cord is shorter than the iron cord. I put my Hakko station on a shelf and keep the iron on the desk, but with the PACE this is not possible because the ISB cable is so short. If the ISB connector were on the front... (It's probably easy to transplant the connector from the rear)
5) The stand is good, it's really not that hard to get the iron to land correctly to trigger the switch. I agree with whoever said it should have been done through the iron cord, but what do I know.
6) The power supply is large and heavy. You can insert the iron cord easily and the unit doesn't move. It does look a bit odd, on the one hand you have the large cast bezel and the extruded case, but the front panel is just a piece of sheet aluminum. On the other hand it'll make adding the ISB connector to the front easier, unless the PCB is in the way inside. The power switch feels a bit cheap, not as robust as the Hakko's. The bezel is also a carry handle of sorts.
Overall I'm happy, some firmware weirdness needs to be fixed IMO, the jumping display just doesn't inspire confidence.
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You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.
You are correct sir.
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I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.
I like the power switch, anythings better than reaching around the side or over the back and a pain if it blocked by other gear.
One solution for the ISB cord is to DIY up an extension, it's probably hard to account for all situations when it comes to length. In the past I left my stands and station at the back of the table, but bring the stand forward if I must. I'm still deciding on the final resting place for the new stations as I now I have a few more mounting options to try out.
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If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting :popcorn:
As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.
So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.
I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.
You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.
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So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.
I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.
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So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.
I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.
I understand it was not designed into this model, but I think any manufacturer these days that have any onboard electronics that control the products performance, settings, etc., would be wise to consider adding such a low cost somewhat “future proof” ability.
I wasn’t thrilled when I found out there were firmware updates on my BM235 DMM, but no way to upgrade, other then buying another, then another. It was my fault as I never thought DMM’s were ever upgraded. I love it, it’s my #1 meter, but as I’ve grown older, unless I have some real need for an electronics product immediately, I have learned to be more patient and besides reading and watching reviews etc., I usually WAIT awhile and no longer desire to get the first ones off the assembly line. This more mature approach has paid off so many times. It’s good insurance to avoid buyers remorse!
I will say, that at least Pace has the replacement chip option for those few without a computer to do a firmware update, but I don’t think that would be the norm, and they could save some cash with downloadable firmware.
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which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?
Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
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If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting :popcorn:
As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.
So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.
I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.
You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.
We hear you ... this was something discussed and will be implemented in future stations.
Aaron
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WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=480854;image)
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WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=480854;image)
Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...
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Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...
:-+
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Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
Multiples of 5, not powers.
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which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?
Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.
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which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?
Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.
I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...
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There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount. Too much can be distracting. Too little can not be informative enough. I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.
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^+1
I have done production soldering for several years, now.
Why do they use a 17 bit ADC despite 5 degree resolution of temp setting? Despite the 1 degree resolution of the display? Those things don't matter.
In production soldering you don't look at a display. And you don't need to adjust the temp to a tenth of a degree or even 1 degree. The human operator makes the final adjustment to his own technique after the best setting is found for the task at hand. What matters is consistency and repeatability, so that once the groove has been found, it doesn't change, and the iron behaves as expected throughout the other 1000 of the same operation. When soldering stations do the soldering by themselves, then they can bother adjusting temp down to a tenth of a degree... without turning knobs or pressing buttons... and they won't need a display to see where they're at. Until then, the best way an iron can behave is simply to be as consistent as possible, down to as fine a resolution as possible, day in day out, without drifting with time or temp or humidity... and it doesn't matter if that shows up on a display or not. As a production solderer, there are only 2 reasons to have a display at all. 1. To aid in adjusting the temp and/or to quickly return to previous known settings and 2. To debug in the event of problems with the station.
That Pace uses 17 bit ADC and doesn't have a USB port just shows their priorities are pretty much correct for their traditional market. They are working at improving the part that matters. Whether they succeeded or not, only time will tell. But I find it impressive that Dave took two random tips and they both measured spot on. If you can replace a worn tip with a new one, and it behaves exactly the same as before, that would be pretty nice.
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9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.
1) Discussion was about MCUs not having 17bit ADCs. I question this is needed. 10 or 12 bit ADC would do the job. Jelly bean MCUs have it.
2) It doesn't display to that resolution, so, yes, 9bit is fine. In fact, if it rounds to 5deg C, then even 8bit ADC would do the job (assuming ADC is only for display and control loop is analog).
3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away. Also, ADCs with a lot of resolution are harder to make them properly working. They easily pick up noise from environment, power rails, etc. Even 12bits is not easy to utilize (as stm32 demo boards show, I've seen noise up to 3 LSB).
Just in case, I'm not saying they are doing it wrong or something. I just like to discuss the design and learn something from it. There can be non-design reasons to make the station this way. May be they just had tons of these 17bit ADCs for free and decided to use them. Or they just wanted reduce design costs/time and put parts with overkill specs, who knows.
BTW how does AccuDrive works? Everyone says "wow, it is spot on", but I'd want to know details. Because may be Dave received a special calibrated unit with pre-selected tips.
PS any hi-res photos of the PCB available? Want to see how active rectification works... I have two ideas how it can work (e.g., using comparators to switch mosfets, or a self-driving circuit if load is resistive).
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3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away.
A soldering station isn't a temperature measuring device. None of the resolution is necessarily discarded. It doesn't need to be displayed, because the display doesn't do any soldering. Presumably, that high resolution ADC is used to improve response and temp stability. If it is only there to put a number on a screen, and the temp control loop doesn't use it, well that would a pretty big joke. Let's hope for Pace that this isn't the case.
Some of the Metcal stations don't even have a temp display or adjustment capability. The user input and display have a resolution of 1 bit. It's on or off. But every bit of resolution that the Curie RF system produces (which is infinite, since it's analog) is put to work. In the Metcal, the further the tip drops in temp, the more it increases in skin resistance, and the more power gets put into the tip. something like that, anyhow. If you wanted to do that digitally, you have to differentiate to some level of resolution. How much will matter? Well, enough is enough, but more can't hurt.
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3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away.
You don't seem to understand the post I made just previous to yours. A soldering station isn't a temperature measuring device. None of the resolution is discarded. It doesn't need to be displayed, because the display doesn't do any soldering.
I'm questioning 1) how many ENOB they can get from the circuit 2) if there is a digital control loop or analog (you claim it is digital, are you sure?).
Just in case, a 17bit ADC supplied from 5V has 0.038mV step. Good luck getting this resolution and precision in a circuit supplied from a 7805 regulator (or whatever there, I don't have access to fast Internet to check what was there) with no shielding and layout considerations. It's a resolution of a 5.5 digit DMM. I don't remember seeing lm399 on the board. Also, ADC with high resolution are slow. So, definitely resolution was not a reason to put a 17bit ADC.
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You make good points.
If the temp control loop doesn't use those bits, well that would be curious. Maybe it IS just for show.. :)
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which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?
Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.
I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...
I think the issue isn’t the granularity (1 degree or 5 or 10), but rather the display update rate and the hysteresis. A value that’s switching between 280 and 285 every second is every bit as annoying as one flapping between 283 and 284. It depends on the display type, but on an LED display, an update rate faster than about 8-10 updates per second becomes impossible to read. Somewhere between 3-7 is my personal preference for most devices. (Non-TFT) LCDs are slower, so 3-5 is about the max for them to remain legible. On a soldering station, I’d lean towards a gentler rate like 3/sec.
But hysteresis is the critical thing here: Let’s assume 5 updates per second. If the setback logic is maintaining 280F ±2F (actual tip temp), then you might set the hysteresis to 2 degrees, so that it won’t update the display until the temp actually leaves the 278-282F range, and then you update in 1 degree steps.
There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount. Too much can be distracting. Too little can not be informative enough. I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.
In actual practice, 5 degrees granularity is more than enough for soldering. But as a nerd, somehow, I like seeing the individual degrees! :P
Since we’re on the topic of display annoyance: I think I’d find the blinking setback to be very distracting. I wonder whether there’s enough CPU cycles left to do fancy effects like dimming the display (or gently “throbbing” it) when it’s in setback — or doing something with the Ready LED, like turning it yellow or throbbing it.
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BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used :)
Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.
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Some observations: TC500ACOE is not so costly, it lists as a $2.50 part (est. 1000's price). Date sheet header says designer can trade resolution for speed, but no more than 10sps. Marco Reps investigation shows unbuffered 120hz DC to the tip..
*edit - Opps forgot, here's the index to the point he made: https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=843
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TC500ACOE
Wait, but that's not ADC. It's an ADC _frontend_. Now it's getting really weird...
Marco Reps investigation shows unbuffered 120hz DC to the tip..
You mean 100Hz? (He's in Germany, afaik, so should be 50Hz mains) Uhm, so, I guess, there is no control to fets at all, are they connected like this? https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/203315/storing-the-the-charge-from-a-mosfet-bridge-rectifier . But then I wonder why rectifying at all? Why not drive iron from AC?
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There's also an ICL7660A to run +- 5V to that front-end..
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I don't know too much about these things, but when it comes to temperature regulation and PID loops, wouldn't more resolution/precision offer superior control, irregardless of the display? Could the ADC resolution be primary there to drive control? Maybe this is obvious..
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BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used :)
Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.
I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
Kits would probably need too much support.
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BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used :)
Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.
I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
Kits would probably need too much support.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
Kits would be a horrible idea for Pace. Just way too much aggravation, potential damage to their reputation, and increased costs (they're not Heathkit, which is long gone).
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I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
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Just watched Marco Reps's video. Afaik, there is no "active" rectification, just mosfets connected in "ideal diode" configuration. Which is fine.
The station switches heater at zero crossing. This means decisions are made at the rate twice the line frequency. So, in the worst case there is a delay of 10ms. Why I'm saying this? Just to say that even a slow SMPS would work just fine (I'm not sure they are really slow as some users report here). But, again, doesn't really matter.
Concerning display and other fancy features. It is true they are not essential for soldering. But noobs like me like them. So, it's just a matter of target market. Also would make possible to change profiles, preset temperatures, etc easier (ersa with configuration on sdcard is a joke).
I personally like rotating encoders with push button. Minimalistic and convenient.
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Just watched Marco Reps's video. Afaik, there is no "active" rectification, just mosfets connected in "ideal diode" configuration.
Not so fast, take a look at 15:25 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=843 ) bottom left is right under the mosfets. I couldn't get a good enough look at the tiny part number, but Z1 and Z4 could be dual zener's who's tab could be under uC control.
*edit - those are ZXMN4A06G n-ch mosfets, if that makes any sense (it might have been easier with p-ch?).
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There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .
Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
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I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
I wasn't aware the SD card was usable for that.
Seems a bit of a PITA though vs. the rotary encoder with button operated menu system in the bigger siblings.
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There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .
Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
You have good eyes! I'm still curious where Vin for the 7805 comes from (it won't boot without it..) The body diodes?
*Edit - In future model updates etc..
If Pace considers a single transformer with dual winding's, they might consider internal wiring only, since a station incorrectly strapped for 120v on 240v would require 80v mosfets and good crowbar to protect (yet again another reason for SMPS as some have suggested).
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I don't like how small the sponge cubby is. Solder blobs fly out all the time. The sponge is half the size of the Hakko 936's.
Really don't like this.
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JBC sponge is also tiny.
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JBC sponge is also tiny.
I probably wouldn't like it either. :-DD
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No brass wool holder on the Hakko 936 stand, so 90s ;)
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If you'd rather use a sponge only, then why not just remove the brass wool box so you can install a larger one?
Or is there some technical reason preventing this that I'm not seeing in the photos?
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I don't know what came over me to do this this morning, but here we are. I'll finish up later.
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As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Finally uploaded a few photos. Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/post-a-picture-of-a-cat!/msg1694750/#msg1694750) in the Post a picture of a cat! thread.
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Concerning display and other fancy features. It is true they are not essential for soldering. But noobs like me like them. So, it's just a matter of target market. Also would make possible to change profiles, preset temperatures, etc easier (ersa with configuration on sdcard is a joke).
I personally like rotating encoders with push button. Minimalistic and convenient.
A company that does not have experience with encoders should not be using them for this. Months or years later, when the encoder wears in and the device becomes buggy or even unusable is too big a liability for this. Additionally, a rotary encoder just keeps spinning. A pot, you don't have to look at, which the pot is much preferable to me for a soldering iron control. (Absolute encoders are a thing; a very expensive thing). And finally, no matter how fast is your fancy micro, if you turn a given encoder too fast, it is going to miss steps.
Another problem is the issue of when the encoder actually fails. The parameters of an electric encoder are very specific, and they must be accounted for in the software. If the part can no longer be sourced 10+ years down the line, your station could turn into a paperweight, for practical purposes. Replacing with a different encoder even with the same number of detents could prove problematic due to different bounce characteristics and whatnot. Barring hours of tweaking and debugging and hacking. It may be possible to account for this in the software, in the first place, at least if your micro has speed and resources to dedicate to this. But considering how many devices I own where the designer can't even get the originally specc'ed encoder to work, properly, this is not realistic to just assume as a given. Having tinkered with encoders, myself (with less than 100% reliability, admittedly), I suspect to account for wider range of replacement parts, it might require significant compromise, such as in regards to max rpm that can be detected (at least without user interface to change parameters, which not only takes "work" for the user, but is going to be difficult to do when the only user input is not working).
Save encoder for navigating menu that is more complicated than temp up or down. It might look cool when Marco Reps does it. But anyone who were to rely on that station will eventually curse the design choice.
This is not a TS-100; nor is the TS-100 the future of soldering irons. :)
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A company that does not have experience with encoders should not be using them for this
[skip]
I think you are exaggerating problems. Anyway, you can say the same about pretty much everything, including buttons. They can become obsolete, they miss pushes, you have to look at it, etc. Just buy parts with standard footprint from a reputable supplier, that's the secret. Reliability data is to be found in the datasheet.
BTW, there are other components that can become obsolete. Like, that ADC, etc.
> your station could turn into a paperweight, for practical purposes
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).
PS Do you propose to build all the equipment only with push buttons and 7-segment leds? Otherwise I don't really see the point. Most tools on my bench have screens, etc. I see no point replacing them with something without screens and encoders.
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The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?
Warranty void, huh?
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The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?
Warranty void, huh?
YEP, I'm tellin' on you ...! ;)
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I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
I wasn't aware the SD card was usable for that.
Seems a bit of a PITA though vs. the rotary encoder with button operated menu system in the bigger siblings.
I think it’s on purpose, so that in production it can’t be dicked around with.
This post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/considering-a-soldering-station-which-one/msg754342/#msg754342) (which is actually a reply from me to you in another thread! :p) has a screenshot of the software for the nano/pico so you can see the options.
[Edit: corrected URL]
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The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?
Warranty void, huh?
:-DD
Much nicer solution than splicing the ISB cable. :-+
Perhaps PACE could sell an extension cable for those that need it?
I think it’s on purpose, so that in production it can’t be dicked around with.
This post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/considering-a-soldering-station-which-one/50/) (which is actually a reply from me to you in another thread! :p) has a screenshot of the software for the nano/pico so you can see the options.
Could well be the reason they went that way vs. a USB port.
No explanation of Energy that I saw in the screenshot, but I presume there's a README file that comes with the software and/or thoroughly spelled out in the manual.
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That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.
When you change a pot, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's gonna do SOMETHING. The wrong encode can speak complete gibberish as far as the specific device is concerned. This is not the same thing as a button failing. You can replace a switch with anything, even if the footprint doesn't work you can jumper it in and stick it somewhere.
I think you are exaggerating the problem.
My Korad PSU is an example. Worked perfectly for about 6 months or maybe a year. Now it is a struggle to change the voltage. It goes down, perfectly. When turning it up, it often goes down... very, very quickly. So you end up taking 2 steps forward 50 steps back. So 1 turn CCW reduces voltage by 10 steps... 1 turn to the CW turns the voltage down by 100's of steps. This is what makes the encoder failure so bad. It's not like you just have to press a shoddy button a few extra times until it works. It can get to where you can't steer the boat to where you need it to go, because it only has 2 flavors of wrong. This has happened to several electronics devices I have owned. I have 3 presets on there I use, but I can't easily adjust the temp.
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair
Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer. I can't get an encoder to work as responsively and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code. There's a break point that is easily reachable by manual turning of the knob where steps are missed or interpreted wrong. And all kinds of stupid stuff CAN happen when I inadvertently turn the knob partway through a step and let go. I'll have to revisit that, later. Eletromechanical contacts make bounce, and it is possible this bounce can be indistinguishable to a digital input pin from an actual valid encoder output if you want high responsiveness). And even replacing the encoder, I'm not going to waste my time for that work, considering the first one didn't last a year. Even if identifying the exact one is possible. I have thought of replacing it with a micro that outputs a clean encoder signal (and controlling that micro with regular button switches). But the time to do that vs the $ to buy a new one, it's gonna be a long time before I encounter enough shoddy encoder programming before that pays off for the time. And I always seem to have a bigger fish to fry.
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With something like this, you can pull the microcontroller and write your own code.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TL866II-Plus-USB-minipro-Programmer-10-Adapter-EEPROM-FLASH-AVR-MCU-PIC-SPI/173088232681?hash=item284cdcd4e9%3Ag%3AYBwAAOSwygtan1UH&_sacat=0&_nkw=minipro+programmer+adapter&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313&LH_TitleDesc=0%7C0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/TL866II-Plus-USB-minipro-Programmer-10-Adapter-EEPROM-FLASH-AVR-MCU-PIC-SPI/173088232681?hash=item284cdcd4e9%3Ag%3AYBwAAOSwygtan1UH&_sacat=0&_nkw=minipro+programmer+adapter&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313&LH_TitleDesc=0%7C0)
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You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.
I agree with this, had problems with this in the past. Requires some thinking when replacing.
Yet again, using your logic I can say ADS200 is a very unreliable product. Here how a real soldering iron should look like: https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pensol-sl963/soldering-irons-and-guns/sorny-roong-industrial/ (https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pensol-sl963/soldering-irons-and-guns/sorny-roong-industrial/) . No "moving" parts -- less chances to brake it. No unreliable leds, switches, transformers, buttons, plugs, etc. Just pure reliability. If tips are obsolete, one can make new once from a thick copper wire. Heating wire is also not a problem. There is no distracting display. It's a perfect tool for post-apocalypse era.
My Korad PSU is an example
It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke. This doesn't mean anything (scientifically speaking sample size is too small).
Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer, even I can't get an encoder to work as reliably and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code).
Just use this algorithm: https://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/rotary-encoder.html#Taming_Noisy_Rotary_Encoders (https://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/rotary-encoder.html#Taming_Noisy_Rotary_Encoders) . I tried it, works like a charm, no skipping, jumping, etc on a cheap and noisy Chineese encoder (sometimes there are more than 100 bounces per click). Or use a ready library (although nothing worked for me, so I had to roll my own).
Anyway, I think you projecting too much personal bias on this.
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Yes, I have personal bias. I'm a production solderer. If you think the TS-100 is a well-designed tool, you have a different bias.
I'll check out that algorithm when I have time. I have plenty of devices I have to depend on which use encoders. And in most cases, they work fine. But I believe you are inevitably going to run into issue. Where if you turn the knob at just the right frequency, it will output noise that looks the same as a valid output when viewed through a digital filter. You will more than likely end up with a compromise that either can drop a true positive or let through a false negative every blue moon. The gray code is very simple, maybe too simple.
It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke.
The ADS is a cheap soldering station. Same price bracket. You increase the cost of parts and the complexity and hold to a low price point, and something might give. For something that only outputs 2 signals, relative up or relative down, with no absolute position/measure, the electromechanical encoder is relative pain in the rear. And I wouldn't go out of my way to incorporate an encoder (for the first time) in something where 2 buttons does just as good of a job. You would have to do a lot of testing before you know what may happen 5 years down the road. Not to say that an encoder knob can't be fun or cool or increase the enjoyment of the user. I'd just get more enjoyment knowing it will work and/or be easy to fix when it doesn't.
Here's an example: I have a name-brand router with an amazing speed control. You can belt out a pretty good rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb on it by tweaking the speed dial. It maintains constant speed in the cut, even at low speed. I have a different brand that is made in the same factory, but without the speed control; it has just a simple power dial. Functionally, the fancy speed control doesn't matter. The other router just spins up to a higher idle RPM when it's not cutting. You might argue that it will burn the wood at the beginning of the cut, but this is just theory and it has zero practical effect. The fancy one actually has a functional downside. It produces more heat at lower speed settings. Extended use at low speed setting without cooldown will actually kill the thing; says so in the manual. Yes, the fancy one is cooler and more fun to use. I love it. But I'm not a professional woodworker, and it doesn't matter to me if my router breaks or I have to give it a rest. So while yes, people are willing to pay more money for it, and it makes them happy, this doesn't mean it will produce better results, nor increase efficiency/productivity, nor be more reliable. For a production soldering station, my own bias is towards reliability, efficiency/productivity, and operational/maintenance cost. When you do something as a job*, it doesn't matter the bells or whistles. After 2 months, you won't notice them. When you hear that perfect pitch constant hum, it won't be cool, anymore. You'll want to throw it in a river, quit your job, and become a hobo, just like with any other router. But if/when it breaks and you lose a days work on it, your mood will be even worse when you're pulling an allnighter or working over the weekend after buying a new router, let alone twiddling with a godforsaken eletromechanical encoder.
*If it's monotonous and repetitive. And production soldering has to be monotonous and repetitive. It's too expensive (too many chances for mistakes) when it is not.
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My ADS200 arrived late this afternoon, a full month (June 22 - July 23) since ordering it from TEquipment. Two weeks were probably spent in transit. I live 240 miles from the Pace factory but the ADS200 was shipped from Oregon, 3000 miles away. In any case it looks like TEquipment has a few in stock, at the moment.
I got the ISB stand, and these tips:
1131-0055-P1 1/4" Chisel (6.35mm)
1131-0008-P1 3/64" 30 Degree Chisel (1.20mm)
1130-0026-P1 1/16" 30 Degree Bent Chisel (1.59mm)
1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30 Degree Chisel (2.38mm)
All of them seem to work. I think that I would prefer the bent tip to be conical rather than a chisel, I see that there is such an option and will order it at some point. It is a very fine point though.
The ADS200 replaces a Hakko FX888 (old analog, not D). Before that I had a series of Weller and Ungar soldering "stations".
My needs are minimal, I certainly do not solder every day. Besides the obvious advantages of instant heat and accurate temperature control, being able to change hot tips is fantastic. I probably only used two different tips on the Hakko, but I would often power it up and only realize that the wrong tip for the job was installed after the tip was at temperature.
I was able to solder a wire to a large piece of 0.6 mm thick of copper sheet using the 6.35 mm tip at 343C with no problem. That is great, in the past I would have had to pull out a huge direct AC mains connected iron to do that. I also soldered headers on several breakout boards and all went well.
Like Dave, the fractional inch descriptions on the tip tubes drive me (an older American) crazy. I wrote the metric equivalent on my tubes, but I will probably keep them on the stand since I have a limited number. At least Pace does include the widths in mm in their literature.
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There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .
Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
You have good eyes! I'm still curious where Vin for the 7805 comes from (it won't boot without it..) The body diodes?
*Edit - In future model updates etc..
If Pace considers a single transformer with dual winding's, they might consider internal wiring only, since a station incorrectly strapped for 120v on 240v would require 80v mosfets and good crowbar to protect (yet again another reason for SMPS as some have suggested).
I watched the video, and I think you are right, there must be a 5th mosfet somewhere (probably in the ground line) that switches the heater on or off at 0V crossing after rectification.
That means they have losses on 3 Rds_on at all time.
They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...
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@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..
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They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...
This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
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They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...
This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
Seems true.. and Dave's traces would suggest gating times can as be short as one half cycle (see attached traces). Still, it doesn't answer my other question: What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?
Gees-Loius... I just may have to open mine up...
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What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?
I have two ideas
1) there is a separate rectifier, but I don't see it.
2) FET bridge supplies two paths: one is to the tip, and another one to [beefy diode s560, big capacitor and 7805].
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@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..
That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...
This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
It does not, simple charge pump and few bipolar transistors would would do wonderfully. Or if you are really inventive, connect the source of your analog switch to ground and trafo outputs and tip heater to drains, but in that case care must be taken about powering low power electronics...
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Those mosfets can pass up to 7a (as per datasheet), so unless I misunderstood you, that bridge supplies the tip..
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That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...
It doesn't make sense to use fet bridge just to supply 7805: 1) current is too small 2) total voltage drop won't be smaller as 7805 will drop down to 5v. So, no benefits. Looking at traces, I think they go the handpiece connector.
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Perhaps I was unclear.
What I am saying is the fact that they need rectified signal for 7805 has nothing to do with rectifying the power for the heater. That was the crux of my comment.
If the mosfet bridge is connected as it was described on the previous page, it is always active and you always have rectified voltage, so they probably take power from there, but not necessarily. It is absolutely unimportant.
Do they take the signal after the bridge, or do they take just one diode before the bridge, to make a half wave rectifier for 7805, it makes no difference to an overall impression of inefficient design of first rectifying and then separately controlling the heater element.
And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.
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And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.
There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view) (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15))
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Pace tip's are fully grounded and the TC is in series* with the heater. It would seem single samples must be taken across the shunt ~90 degrees after on-time zero crossings, but not more than 10sps is available on that ADC. The numbers weigh-in heavily for accuracy so, maybe that's the side benefit of having 17-bits?
Another question could be how do they measure the TC when the bridge is not gated? or do they have to? maybe the firmware auto-learns every tip by dynamic profiling (IE curves change, depending on thermal mass).
*edit - 25c resistance is generally ~4.3 ohms for high mass tips and ~4.0 for the standard. Cord ground to tip shell is milliohm's.
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Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.
And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?
This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.
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Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.
Probably in a month or 2. We're working on a a few minor tweaks. We also would like to wait a bit to see if customers find other bugs. Rather than send out 4 revisions in 3 months, we would rather wait a short period of time to see if any other issues come up, then send out a combined Rev "1-3". Make sense?
And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?
This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.
The way it works is this: - First of all, make sure you know the version of your software/firmware, by switching on the power button, which will immediately flash the firmware version. At this time it is "1-2".
- Wait for PACE to announce a software revision, as it's more likely that your request could slip through the cracks since a "1-3" revision is still likely to be at least a month or 2 away.
- Go to www.paceworldwide.com/contact-us (http://www.paceworldwide.com/contact-us), and fill out the form with your request for an the latest firmware revision for the ADS200. You might want to mention the software revision currently on your ADS unit.
- Make sure you include a good mailing address.
- You could also request revised software through your authorized distributor, in your case Mektronics, but note that it's up to the distributor to determine whether you are charged for shipping.
- PACE will send a new PLCC-44 with new software along with a chip puller, free of charge.
Hope this helps,
Aaron
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I wish it had a usb port or sd card slot for doing upgrades.
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I'm planning a US$450 station shootout.
Please include Chinese t12 clones.
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Well, I've ordered a JBC CD-2BE.
It was only $5 more than the ADS200, and comes with two tips.
(As much as I dislike the integrated JBC stand, and preferred the separate stand that the ADS200 has.)
I'm afraid the AUD$542 + GST pricing in Australia doesn't make the ADS200 attractive enough, considering the JBC unit is a mature product with a good track record.
I'm sure the ADS200 will, in time, build a huge fan base especially in the USA, but it really needs to be priced accordingly in other regions.
If the ADS200 were sub AUD$400 here, then it would be a no-brainer.
I'd like to say a big thank you to Aaron for his participation in this topic.
It's not everyday you get a company rep that keeps existing and potential new customers updated like he has on a forum like this.
I have no prior experience with JBC products, but Pace customer service will be hard to beat.
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Don't blame you, the current price listed for Mektronics is a bit out of my price range, otherwise I would've bought one myself. One day when I'm not busy, I'll try out their "100% price match guarantee" and report if I had any success or not.
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And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.
There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view) (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15))
Sorry for the late reply. I am quite busy these days....
The project you attached is really interesting, I haven't seen it before, I like the simplicity of that design. That was obviously done by competent designer....
Regarding the bold part of your comment, i think it is really not as complicated as you assume.
I have never seen pace tips, but I do assume they have similar approach like JBC, with 3 terminal cartridge where one pin is shared connection of heater/thermocouple.
I cannot really see well on the video. Then they would need to do measurements only during off periods of the heater.
1) It would be a piece of cake for analog designer to design an amp circuit for measuring in the high branch, however there is another very simple solution with a small compromise.
2) If you limit yourself to measuring only during negative half-periods of the current from the trafo, you can keep lower mosfet (M4) off so current will not flow, and turn higher mosfet (M2) on during measuring. This would bring one pin of your heater to ground level, where you can then have your signal referred to analog ground for measuring.
This would simplify your amp design significantly, and I think 50/60Hz frequency for temperature control is more than enough.
Take care.
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Seems like element14 have the station listed on their website now, but without any stock. The prices are $480 AUD with the ISB stand, and $430 without.
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There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .
Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
Good call on the bridge.
I too was curious about how the controller works, so I decided to keep my unit and try and figure it out. I started tracing the signals over the weekend and am about halfway done; I have the ADC and MCU left.
I've attached a PDF of what I have now with some scattered notes. (Yes, the schematic is poorly laid out and messy. I'll clean it up when things start to make more sense.) I'll update the thread when I make some more headway. Hopefully somebody will find it useful.
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Here is my latest effort. I'm leaving for the weekend, so I wanted to post this so people can think it over.
I have traced out almost all of the tracks. There are a few vias that disappear into the inner layers, so that'll take some time to figure out if they actually go somewhere I haven't mapped yet. I also need to clean up the op amp and heater drive schematics.
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Hope Aaron doesn't pop a head-gasket on those schematics.. :scared:
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The ADS200 is on 'sale' at Mektronics, so now the price is $499 (excluding GST. Was $543 previously).
PRICES BELOW EXCLUDING GST (i'm pretty sure element14 also excludes GST, correct me if I'm wrong)
Mektronics, with ISB: $499 ('sale')
(Not available yet!) Element14, with ISB: $481
(Not available yet!) Element14, NO ISB: $435
edit: Mektronics has an ebay account, where the ADS200 costs $576.35 inc GST and free shipping. You can use the PENNY5 discount code to get it for $547.53 inc shipping (or any other ebay voucher you happen to have).
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It's for uhh.... educational purposes only ::)
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Hope Aaron doesn't pop a head-gasket on those schematics.. :scared:
I can't imagine someone making a station of the same quality and support for less. Though, I suspect it won't be too long before someone makes a drop-in replacement PCB with a fancy OLED display and custom firmware. Probably increase sales if it becomes a popular unit to mod.
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BTW TEquipment has lowered the price of the ADS200 with ISB stand to $243.80 :-+
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BTW TEquipment has lowered the price of the ADS200 with ISB stand to $243.80 :-+
Tried the EEVblog 6% off discount code on top of that? Should work as I think they honor it on almost every other deal.
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I finally got around to looking at this again and doing some measurements. There is just one via that I can't tell if I found where it went or not. I had to use the 4-wire probes to figure out the current shunt circuitry as the previous iteration didn't make sense. I have a couple of observations/questions about the design.
1. The MCU reset circuitry is rather complex especially considering the data sheet just suggests connecting a cap to VDD.
2. There is a good 0.4V sag on the 5V power rail while the heater is on. The sag is seen in the digital signals. I'm a bit surprised by this since there is the 1000 uF cap. Edit: It's only 20mV. I had a grounding issue.
3. Why have a flip flop control the PNP which controls the NPN which in turn controls the P-channel for heater power? Why not have the flip flop drive the NPN?
4. There is a NTC thermistor in the hand piece just below the bottom of the cartridge. I assume this is for cold-junction compensation. I haven't worked out the LM317 is doing with the thermistor, though.
5. I don't see where/how the current shunt is actually used to measure cartridge current. The op amp circuit doesn't permit it, and the multiplexer is usually passing the cold-junction analog signal while the heater is on, not the thermocouple/current shunt signal. I actually got the over current error message when I accidentally shorted the 5V and ground rails while probing.
6. Concerning the large temperature jumps shown in Dave's video, the only time I see the thermocouple voltage jump is when the heater is on which is expected for a series heater and thermocouple. I would not expect Pace to be making temperature measurements while the heater is on. While the heater is on for an extended period of time, e.g. turning on for the first time, the multiplexer does pass the thermocouple analog signal to the ADC so perhaps Pace does make thermocouple measurements which would cause the temperature to jump. :-//
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2. There is a good 0.4V sag on the 5V power rail while the heater is on. The sag is seen in the digital signals. I'm a bit surprised by this since there is the 1000 uF cap.
That's surprising. How low does the VAA +30V supply go when the heater is on?
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2. There is a good 0.4V sag on the 5V power rail while the heater is on. The sag is seen in the digital signals. I'm a bit surprised by this since there is the 1000 uF cap.
That's surprising. How low does the VAA +30V supply go when the heater is on?
Off the top of my head I measured ~32V unloaded and 30V when the heater is on. I am going to remeasure all of the rails tonight since I have my doubts about something. I will update later.
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Matches my unloaded numbers. ANSI 120VAC can go as high as 126V (too close for comfort with 33.5v on 35v cap). Marco Reps says there's drop-in switch-mode parts for the 7805.. Would switching noise play well with the ICL7660 and op amps?
BTW, my 7805 is 30c cooler now.. :-+
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Matches my unloaded numbers. ANSI 120VAC can go as high as 126V (too close for comfort with 33.5v on 35v cap). Marco Reps says there's drop-in switch-mode parts for the 7805.. Would switching noise play well with the ICL7660 and op amps?
BTW, my 7805 is 30c cooler now.. :-+
Yes, 35V is too low. Today I measured 33V unloaded and 31V loaded. Plus it is right next to the large heat-generating 7805 :scared:.
I personally wouldn't change to an switch mode without a linear post regulator due to noise concerns. I remeasured the 5V rail and got about 20mV drop while the heater was on. I had a grounding issue before that was showing much higher voltage drop.
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Matches my unloaded numbers. ANSI 120VAC can go as high as 126V (too close for comfort with 33.5v on 35v cap). Marco Reps says there's drop-in switch-mode parts for the 7805.. Would switching noise play well with the ICL7660 and op amps?
BTW, my 7805 is 30c cooler now.. :-+
Yes, 35V is too low. Today I measured 33V unloaded and 31V loaded. Plus it is right next to the large heat-generating 7805 :scared:.
I personally wouldn't change to an switch mode without a linear post regulator due to noise concerns. I remeasured the 5V rail and got about 20mV drop while the heater was on. I had a grounding issue before that was showing much higher voltage drop.
Whew..! I'm glad. Since Pace gifted mine, I didn't figure I even had a warranty (especially now with all my mods)
Trivia: This Pace is so dedicated, it works during severe brown-outs.. in fact, it can solder at 33% of normal mains :-DD
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Trivia: This Pace is so dedicated, it works during severe brown-outs.. in fact, it can solder at 33% of normal mains :-DD
I don't see how that's a selling point. I've never experienced a brown-out while soldering. If I did I'd be in the dark, most likely trying to disconnect anything of value from the mains.
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I personally wouldn't change to an switch mode without a linear post regulator due to noise concerns.
Have a look at Recom DC to DC converters they have low noise replacements for the 7805.
This is the one I was looking at (for another application) but they do them in higher input voltages as well.
R-785.0-0.5
https://mouser.com/datasheet/2/468/R-78xx-0.5-958374.pdf
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Trivia: This Pace is so dedicated, it works during severe brown-outs.. in fact, it can solder at 33% of normal mains :-DD
I don't see how that's a selling point. I've never experienced a brown-out while soldering. If I did I'd be in the dark, most likely trying to disconnect anything of value from the mains.
That was humor (based on Vin/Vout that 7805 has to drop..) ;)
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Wow, did treez design that thing? Looks almost improvised.
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Wow, did treez design that thing? Looks almost improvised.
That's a compliment.. isn't he due to finish primary school soon? :-//
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Testing driving 1.3 firmware today, display update's smooth (no more hi-lo or too fast to read stuff). I can clearly read overshoot-undershoot values, but even soaked sponge-dunking, it's not off by more by 12c during a 2 second recovery.
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Update. During the last week I caught a glimpse of chatter between beta testers and responsiveness of the software team. I even had a nit-pick over ISB wake-up and Pace included that too. I don't know when I'll receive my next PLCC, but they do listen :-+
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Update. During the last week I caught a glimpse of chatter between beta testers and responsiveness of the software team. I even had a nit-pick over ISB wake-up and Pace included that too. I don't know when I'll receive my next PLCC, but they do listen :-+
Cliff,
They'll be an update probably by early next week, so you should receive a new PLCC Chip (and chip puller) by the week after.
Aaron
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Update. During the last week I caught a glimpse of chatter between beta testers and responsiveness of the software team. I even had a nit-pick over ISB wake-up and Pace included that too. I don't know when I'll receive my next PLCC, but they do listen :-+
Cliff,
They'll be an update probably by early next week, so you should receive a new PLCC Chip (and chip puller) by the week after.
Aaron
Aaron I'm not so concerned for that update.. I am more concerned for Pace families braving the arrival of Hurricane Florence!
Please take care down there!
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@PACE-Worldwide
When you guys will ship the product that includes this update to distributors? Is it another couple months?
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@PACE-Worldwide
When you guys will ship the product that includes this update to distributors? Is it another couple months?
Distributors are notified and provided with new chips when the updates are officially released. But I'll post a notice here with instructions on how to obtain an update firmware revision (which are provided to existing customers free of charge), probably next week.
Aaron
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Honestly i do not believe many distributors would enthusiastically open hundreds of boxes and change the firmware chips, unless they are maybe obligated to do so by contract with Pace.
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Honestly i do not believe many distributors would enthusiastically open hundreds of boxes and change the firmware chips, unless they are maybe obligated to do so by contract with Pace.
Unfortunately, you are correct. But since these are simple tweaks to the firmware that enhance usability, it won't matter that much except to the most discerning customer. In any case, if a customer requests an update, they will receive the new set of chips.
Aaron
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Why not upgrade through the USB port?
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Why not upgrade through the USB port?
I don't think it has a USB port.
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Why not upgrade through the USB port?
I wish the ADS200 had a USB port! But it does not. You have to unscrew the front panel, remove a socketed PLCC chip, then replace with the new firmware chip. Yep, we acknowledge it's a hassle.
Aaron
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I know about the missing USB port. I just don't know why Pace is making it more difficult and expensive for itself. Firmware update by pulling chips, slotted screw and nut (not production friendly) to attach voltage regular to heatsink and so on. Weird.
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I know about the missing USB port. I just don't know why Pace is making it more difficult and expensive for itself. Firmware update by pulling chips, slotted screw and nut (not production friendly) to attach voltage regular to heatsink and so on. Weird.
Not weird at all. We were able to achieve the extremely low price point of the ADS200 by using the same basic pc board for multiple products, simply by adding or subtracting certain components. So this board is used in several other products such as our desoldering stations. It's a proven board design that has been ultra reliable since 2009. That's why there seems to be a huge amount of space on certain parts of the pcb. The extruded case is also used in multiple products. Adding new elements to the design (i.e. USB port) would add significant cost to the overall product, so we decided it was better (and far less costly to the customer) to go with the older design. Make sense?
Aaron
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Once the product matures , the usb port will not be needed. I never used USB on my JBC station since bought it maybe 3 of 4 years back. I do not think was any upgrade repeased which was worth doing it.
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I agree; and as long as Pace is willing to send out a chip update at no charge I certainly don't mind changing it.
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But what about the screw holding the heatsink? The cost of upgrading it to a more production friendly variant (e.g. Torx) would be low and would reduce production cost.
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But what about the screw holding the heatsink? The cost of upgrading it to a more production friendly variant (e.g. Torx) would be low and would reduce production cost.
I'll send the message to our Engineering.
Aaron
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I've order a unit for myself at TEquipment, but it's stuck somewhere in US due to the odd way they do shipping into Canada :(
Anyhow, it just occured to me - in case of any warranty issues, does anyone knows if PACE has any representation/service workshop in Canada, or stuff will have to be shipped into US should any problem appear? If the latter is the case, shipping costs of turnaround for a base unit due to weight will likely be a significant fraction of a unit retail price.
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I've order a unit for myself at TEquipment, but it's stuck somewhere in US due to the odd way they do shipping into Canada :(
Anyhow, it just occured to me - in case of any warranty issues, does anyone knows if PACE has any representation/service workshop in Canada, or stuff will have to be shipped into US should any problem appear? If the latter is the case, shipping costs of turnaround for a base unit due to weight will likely be a significant fraction of a unit retail price.
Maybe they would let you remove and send in the main board since there isn't much else to go wrong?
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I've order a unit for myself at TEquipment, but it's stuck somewhere in US due to the odd way they do shipping into Canada :(
Anyhow, it just occured to me - in case of any warranty issues, does anyone knows if PACE has any representation/service workshop in Canada, or stuff will have to be shipped into US should any problem appear? If the latter is the case, shipping costs of turnaround for a base unit due to weight will likely be a significant fraction of a unit retail price.
Outside of the US, we sell and service through our local authorized distributors in that country. But since you are buying through Tequipment, a US company, it complicates it a bit because you have have to either deal directly with PACE or Tequipment in the States if there is a problem. It's easier to deal with Arbell or Accessotronik (our primary Canadian distributors) as they can easily replace items then get PACE to reimburse, than to deal long distance with a US company. But no distributor is going to want to support a customer who bought from his competitor. I realize that you may get a better deal by purchasing through a US distributor, but you do risk incurring those shipping costs and turn-around lead times if you decide to do so. On the bright side, it's rare that we have to fulfill warranty claims where we require the customer send back the product as this is time consuming and costly to both the customer and PACE.
Aaron
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Thanks for your quick response!
Outside of the US, we sell and service through our local authorized distributors in that country. But since you are buying through Tequipment, a US company, it complicates it a bit because you have have to either deal directly with PACE or Tequipment in the States if there is a problem. It's easier to deal with Arbell or Accessotronik (our primary Canadian distributors) as they can easily replace items then get PACE to reimburse, than to deal long distance with a US company. But no distributor is going to want to support a customer who bought from his competitor. I realize that you may get a better deal by purchasing through a US distributor, but you do risk incurring those shipping costs and turn-around lead times if you decide to do so.
Actually my decision to order at Tequipment didn't have anything to do with the price. I've checked both these distributors' websites, and the former one (Arbell) didn't seem to have ADS200 in stock, while the latter's website did not inspire much confidence (not working currency switch - I couldn't figure out if the price they are showing is in US or Canadian dollars), so TEQ was the only one that actually had a working website which they actually wanted their customers to use, had units in stock and shipping charges were not that large. I will admit that it was a bit of an impulse buy after my current soldering station called quits on me in the middle of the soldering - normally I'd called Accessotronik to sort out all questions (especially so since they seem to have a location in Toronto, which is about 1 hr drive away from me). Oh well, it's too late now - money are paid, the stuff is shipped and is stuck somewhere in IL for the last couple of days, but I hope it will make its way to me eventually.
On the bright side, it's rare that we have to fulfill warranty claims where we require the customer send back the product as this is time consuming and costly to both the customer and PACE.
Well I guess I will have to find out at my own expense if once-revered "Made in USA" quality is still worth anything nowadays ;)
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Thanks for your quick response!
Well I guess I will have to find out at my own expense if once-revered "Made in USA" quality is still worth anything nowadays ;)
We'll make it worth your while!
Aaron
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Accessotronic only has a guy in Toronto, not equipment stock. The warehouse is in Montreal i believe.
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Finally received the unit and tips today. Didn't have time to give it a good run yet (just soldered few things mostly to see if it's working OK), but so far so good.
BUT - I wasn't impressed with the packaging. I don't know if it's PACE's fault, TEQ, Borderfree, or DHL, but the packaging leaves something to be desired. The main unit's bag was all torn apart and pieces of it were just dangling on the corners of unit, the tips (they were shipped in a separate box with just them and big airbags) were out of their plastic tubes and all over the box. I had to fish one of the tips from under the carton flap on the bottom of the box. After such treatment it was somewhat ironic to see that some of the tubes contained soft cushions seemingly to protect fine tips ;D
But to PACE's credit, despite some obviously brutal treatment the unit and tips received on their way to me everything seems to work great and the main unit looks undamaged! So hats off to PACE - that unit is built like a tank and acts like one too! :-+
I have one question though - I couldn't figure out what the stuff on attached photo is for. I tried to download the manual, but the link to user manual on your product page (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200) is broken and leads to nowhere (404). I've found a link to user manual in the quickstart guide, but there is nothing regarding these things. I know this is quite possibly a really dump question, or maybe my brain doesn't work well that late in the evening, but still I would like to know what it's for ::)
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Finally received the unit and tips today. Didn't have time to give it a good run yet (just soldered few things mostly to see if it's working OK), but so far so good.
BUT - I wasn't impressed with the packaging. I don't know if it's PACE's fault, TEQ, Borderfree, or DHL, but the packaging leaves something to be desired. The main unit's bag was all torn apart and pieces of it were just dangling on the corners of unit, the tips (they were shipped in a separate box with just them and big airbags) were out of their plastic tubes and all over the box. I had to fish one of the tips from under the carton flap on the bottom of the box. After such treatment it was somewhat ironic to see that some of the tubes contained soft cushions seemingly to protect fine tips ;D
The Main Box with the unit is PACE's packaging so we take full responsibility the crappy packaging. But the box of tips is TEquipment's responsibility, as they pull the tips from stock and then box them up.
I have one question though - I couldn't figure out what the stuff on attached photo is for. I tried to download the manual, but the link to user manual on your product page is broken and leads to nowhere (404). I've found a link to user manual in the quickstart guide, but there is nothing regarding these things. through the holes and secured on the inside of the Stand with the thumb I know this is quite possibly a really dump question, or maybe my brain doesn't work well that late in the evening, but still I would like to know what it's for ::)
That set of hardware for attaching the provided Tip & Tool Stand to either side of the ADS200 Power Supply, and can also be used to mate multiple Tip & Tool Stands together. If you look on either side of the Tool Stand, you'll see 2 holes - the screws are inserted through the outside holes and secured with the plastic thumbscrews inside the Tool Stand (they should only be half-tightened at this point). The head of the screws are then slid from the back of the unit through the "T-Slot" Extrusions on either side of the Power Supply. Then the thumbscrews are fully tightened and voila, your Tool Stand is firmly connected to the Power Supply rather than free standing! Frankly, only about .05% of customers actually attach the Tool Stand to the side of the unit, as it's much more flexible to use them free-standing, but we include the hardware anyway, just in case.
Aaron
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The Main Box with the unit is PACE's packaging so we take full responsibility the crappy packaging.
To be honest, the main unit looks like it doesn't need any bag around it as it's so durable :-+ I guess it just rubbed against holding carton pieces which did not hold the unit secure enough to withstand the rigors of shipping. I didn't find any damage, it just looked a bit like...what I expect a cheap-ass chinese soldering station to look like if you know what I mean. The power of first impression and all that ::)
That set of hardware for attaching the provided Tip & Tool Stand to either side of the ADS200 Power Supply, and can also be used to mate multiple Tip & Tool Stands together. If you look on either side of the Tool Stand, you'll see 2 holes - the screws are inserted through the outside holes and secured with the plastic thumbscrews inside the Tool Stand (they should only be half-tightened at this point). The head of the screws are then slid from the back of the unit through the "T-Slot" Extrusions on either side of the Power Supply. Then the thumbscrews are fully tightened and voila, your Tool Stand is firmly connected to the Power Supply rather than free standing! Frankly, only about .05% of customers actually attach the Tool Stand to the side of the unit, as it's much more flexible to use them free-standing, but we include the hardware anyway, just in case.
Thanks, you might want to add this information into user manual specifically for dumbasses like me ::) I actually do prefer it free-standing too due to the way things are laid out on my desk.
Last question - my work desk is somewhat crowded, so ISB cable goes near exhaust vent of desktop reflow oven which blows out hot air for a short time during cooldown phase of reflow profile. Is that cable temperature-resistant (like pencil's cable is), or I will need to rearrange my stuff somehow to make sure it doesn't get anywhere near where hot air can be?
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Last question - my work desk is somewhat crowded, so ISB cable goes near exhaust vent of desktop reflow oven which blows out hot air for a short time during cooldown phase of reflow profile. Is that cable temperature-resistant (like pencil's cable is), or I will need to rearrange my stuff somehow to make sure it doesn't get anywhere near where hot air can be?
That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.
Aaron
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That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.
Aaron
Thank you very much for your prompt responses - I really appreciate this! This is very refreshing after dealing with manufacturers on the other side of the globe, with usual turnaround times of a day due to time zone difference! :-+
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That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.
Aaron
Thank you very much for your prompt responses - I really appreciate this! This is very refreshing after dealing with manufacturers on the other side of the globe, with usual turnaround times of a day due to time zone difference! :-+
What tips did you get Asmi?
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What tips did you get Asmi?
1/128" Conical (0.20mm) - 1130-0036-P1
1/32" 30 Degree Chisel (0.80mm) - 1131-0012-P1
1/16" 30 Degree Chisel (1.59mm) - 1131-0019-P1
1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30 Degree (0.40mm) - 1131-0003-P1
13/64" Chisel (5.15mm) - 1131-0010-P1
I do a lot of super fine components (like 0201, 0402 and DFN/QFN/QFP with 0.4 or 0.5 mm pitch), so most of these tips are quite fine.
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That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.
Aaron
Thank you very much for your prompt responses - I really appreciate this! This is very refreshing after dealing with manufacturers on the other side of the globe, with usual turnaround times of a day due to time zone difference! :-+
Hi asmi,
I tested out the ISB Tool Stand cord this morning by applying the TD-200 Iron set at max temp (850°F/454°C) and touching the cord for 15 seconds. Yep, it's heat resistant and was not damaged in any way. According to our engineers, the wires are sheathed in the very same burn-proof ESD-safe silicone sleeves that we use on all our other handpieces.
By the way, concerning the fine point tips you use, you may want to try out our 1/128"/0.20mm Conical, Special Tip Heater Cartridge PN 1130-0050-P1:
www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td200-standard-blue-series-tips/1128020mm-conical-special-tip-heater-cartridge (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td200-standard-blue-series-tips/1128020mm-conical-special-tip-heater-cartridge)
This tip is almost identical to the 1/128" Conical Tip Heater Cartridge PN 1130-0036-P1 you are using, but it has been slightly beveled on the working end so that it transfers heat better and was designed specifically for a hearing aid manufacturer for 0201 soldering. When you look at the photo, you really can't tell but that subtle modification makes a difference.
Aaron
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I tested out the ISB Tool Stand cord this morning by applying the TD-200 Iron set at max temp (850°F/454°C) and touching the cord for 15 seconds. Yep, it's heat resistant and was not damaged in any way. According to our engineers, the wires are sheathed in the very same burn-proof ESD-safe silicone sleeves that we use on all our other handpieces.
Thanks for the update! It's good to know!
By the way, concerning the fine point tips you use, you may want to try out our 1/128"/0.20mm Conical, Special Tip Heater Cartridge PN 1130-0050-P1:
I will look into this, but I think I will have to wait for these to show up in stock at your canadian distributors because paying 42 CAD for shipping of 15 CAD item don't seem sensible to me. And it's not currently in stock at TEQ anyway.
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Can I use MT-100 MiniTweez with ADS200? This was mentioned in this thread but I've never seen any confirmation on Pace homepage.
Second question: are there any tips included in the 8007-0580?
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Can I use MT-100 MiniTweez with ADS200? This was mentioned in this thread but I've never seen any confirmation on Pace homepage.
Unfortunately not. The MT-100 MiniTweez is only compatible with "IntellHeat" powered PACE handpieces, meaning it has a different connector and runs on older PACE stations (ST 30, ST 50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350). The ADS200 uses "AccuDrive" temperature control, which uses a different connector. Also, while IntelliHeat powered tip-heater cartridges look almost identical to AccuDrive Tips, they both run on completely different voltages. Thus, if you plug an IntelliHeat Tip Cartridge into an AccuDrive TD-200 Handpiece, the IntelliHeat cartridge will work for a time ... then burn out within hours. We had to completely redesign the internal structure of ADS Tip Cartridges to achieve the higher wattage of AccuDrive Tips (80 versus 120 Watts).
On the positive side, we have a completely redesigned/much improved AccuDrive version of the MT-100 MiniTweez handpiece in development that will be available in late Jan ... Can't give you details yet but the prototype looks awesome!
Second question: are there any tips included in the 8007-0580?
At the present time, none of our ADS200 configurations come with tips. Since the ADS200 is very price sensitive, we did not want to add an extra $11 (£9/€11) to the list price. In the next few months, we are planning to introduce a version of the ADS200 that comes with 3 tips.
Hope this answers your questions.
Aaron
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I know there is the option to add the self-made ISB later to the stand but is an "upgrade kit" or spare part(s) available to convert a standard stand to an ISB model by pace as a spare stand would be useless for me? Whether due to lack of interest, no demand or something else I seem to be able to get a non-ISB model very quickly but ISB model would have to be ordered from the states (230V).
thanks for your time
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I know there is the option to add the self-made ISB later to the stand but is an "upgrade kit" or spare part(s) available to convert a standard stand to an ISB model by pace as a spare stand would be useless for me? Whether due to lack of interest, no demand or something else I seem to be able to get a non-ISB model very quickly but ISB model would have to be ordered from the states (230V).
thanks for your time
Hi Dhekhanur,
While we were late in producing the ISB version of the ADS200, it has been readily available since the end of June. So this is likely a decision made on the part of our authorized distributor in Finland (Prodi Oy, if that is the distributor you are using). They simply stocked up on the non-ISB model rather than buy the ISB version, which seems to be gaining some popularity. I will contact our UK office, to discuss with the European Regional Sales Manager and get back to you.
Aaron
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I know there is the option to add the self-made ISB later to the stand but is an "upgrade kit" or spare part(s) available to convert a standard stand to an ISB model by pace as a spare stand would be useless for me? Whether due to lack of interest, no demand or something else I seem to be able to get a non-ISB model very quickly but ISB model would have to be ordered from the states (230V).
thanks for your time
Hi Dhekhanur,
While we were late in producing the ISB version of the ADS200, it has been readily available since the end of June. So this is likely a decision made on the part of our authorized distributor in Finland (Prodi Oy, if that is the distributor you are using). They simply stocked up on the non-ISB model rather than buy the ISB version, which seems to be gaining some popularity. I will contact our UK office, to discuss with the European Regional Sales Manager and get back to you.
Aaron
I contacted the PACE UK Office, and The ADS200 with ISB Tool Stand (230VAC) PN 8007-0581 is available direct from our paceworldwide.com website (definitely in stock) or via Farnell (sales@farnell.co.uk). If you buy direct from PACE, you will have to register by going to any product page and pushing the blue button on the right that says "Login/Register here ...".
If you have any questions please contact the PACE Europe LTD offices at
PACE Europe, LTD
11 Holdom Avenue
Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire
MK1 1QU, United Kingdom
+44 1908 277666
dwinship@paceworldwide.com
Hope this helps,
Aaron
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Any reason Pace doesn't make the ISB switch/cable assembly available as an upgrade or replacement part?
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Any reason Pace doesn't make the ISB switch/cable assembly available as an upgrade or replacement part?
Yes, we do. The Instant SetBack (ISB) Tip & Tool Stand for TD-200 (and TD-100A) PN 6019-0089-P1 is compatible with any PACE station that has an ISB connector on the back panel of the power supply (ST 30, ST50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350 and ADS200):
www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A)
Aaron
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Yes, we do. The Instant SetBack (ISB) Tip & Tool Stand for TD-200 (and TD-100A) PN 6019-0089-P1 is compatible with any PACE station that has an ISB connector on the back panel of the power supply (ST 30, ST50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350 and ADS200):
www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A)
Aaron
I meant just the switch and cable assembly.
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Yes, we do. The Instant SetBack (ISB) Tip & Tool Stand for TD-200 (and TD-100A) PN 6019-0089-P1 is compatible with any PACE station that has an ISB connector on the back panel of the power supply (ST 30, ST50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350 and ADS200):
www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A)
Aaron
I meant just the switch and cable assembly.
Oh sorry. No, we don't make that available although there were some discussions of making one available.
Aaron
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On the positive side, we have a completely redesigned/much improved AccuDrive version of the MT-100 MiniTweez handpiece in development that will be available in late Jan ... Can't give you details yet but the prototype looks awesome!
Hopefully this does not continue getting pushed out. Was hoping for Oct/Nov, but Jan will do.
What is the current firmware version? And is a new one going to be issued soon? I just received a unit and waiting to see if I should request new firmware now or just wait a bit.
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On the positive side, we have a completely redesigned/much improved AccuDrive version of the MT-100 MiniTweez handpiece in development that will be available in late Jan ... Can't give you details yet but the prototype looks awesome!
What is the current firmware version? And is a new one going to be issued soon? I just received a unit and waiting to see if I should request new firmware now or just wait a bit.
We are about to announce a Firmware Rev "1-4" later on in the week. At that time, I will give instructions as to how any PACE customers on EEVBlog with Rev 1-1, 1-2 or 1-3 can obtain a free upgrade.
Aaron
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for the quick reply. I am sorry to hear that there is no official way to convert a standard TD-100A/TD-200 stand to an ISB model (I do not count purchasing the isb stand a conversion as what i meant was indeed cable and pcb/switch only). I expected this to be the case but nevertheless it never hurts to ask.
At the time I checked the ISB version of the ADS200 was not stocked by Farnell however it seems it now is so thanks for that.
Lastly is there a sheet or list of all consumeables compiled for the ADS200 specifically even if the customer may not treat it as such. The O-rings come to mind. In this case. (in contrast to the obvious sponge and brass wool.
Added later: While you may or may not be able to confirm this is a SX-100 analogue planned for the accudrive equivalent of the st-115 or st-75 or whatever
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Lastly is there a sheet or list of all consumeables compiled for the ADS200 specifically even if the customer may not treat it as such. The O-rings come to mind. In this case. (in contrast to the obvious sponge and brass wool.
Added later: While you may or may not be able to confirm this is a SX-100 analogue planned for the accudrive equivalent of the st-115 or st-75 or whatever
Please see the attached ADS200 Price Lists (see below) including current list pricing for all 4 currencies we sell into including US$, £, € and what we call "Export" pricing which is US$ pricing in Asia (this includes Australia & New Zealand). The TD-200 O-Ring PN 1213-0090-P5 (pkg of 5 each) is not on any of the lists but has list pricing of US$3.57/£2.84/€3.50 and "Export" pricing of US$3.80 per pack of 5:
www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td200-td100a-and-td100-replacement-o-rings (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td200-td100a-and-td100-replacement-o-rings)
Concerning the SX-100, there will likely be an analog created for our upcoming new rework station that will replace the MBT 350, but this is "on the drawing board" and whether an AccuDrive version is designed will not be decided upon until 2nd quarter, next year.
Aaron
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Thank you for the quick reply. It is exciting to hear you guys working on a successor to the MBT-350 even if I myself as a hobbyist will never have a use case for it.
First of all please give yourself a pat on the back as your contributions in this thread in particular has conviced me that when I need a soldering station the Pace ADS200 will be the leading candidate in my mind.
Secondly thanks for reposting the price sheets of tips and stations but maybe I confused spare parts with consumables as those are what I was expecting. Maybe it might be worth it to make a list or speadsheet or whatever to list all currently compatible spare parts for the ads200 not neccessarily with prices just the title and product number would help a lot as the spare parts section of the website well let's say it could be improved upon
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Thank you for the quick reply. It is exciting to hear you guys working on a successor to the MBT-350 even if I myself as a hobbyist will never have a use case for it.
First of all please give yourself a pat on the back as your contributions in this thread in particular has conviced me that when I need a soldering station the Pace ADS200 will be the leading candidate in my mind.
Secondly thanks for reposting the price sheets of tips and stations but maybe I confused spare parts with consumables as those are what I was expecting. Maybe it might be worth it to make a list or speadsheet or whatever to list all currently compatible spare parts for the ads200 not neccessarily with prices just the title and product number would help a lot as the spare parts section of the website well let's say it could be improved upon
We're working on a brand spanking new website that is due to be launched in January to improve upon the rather inadequate spare parts situation on our site. Right now our website is built on a very old platform called Drupal, which is extremely outdated and the site is extremely difficult to modify. But we hear you and will strive to make it better ... Thanks for the comments!
Aaron
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Thanks, that's the best news ever.
If you are taking requests for the new site here I have a suggestion for you to think about: While I'm not your target demographic as a hobbyist please consider contrasting the different handpieces on the new site as currently I have no idea what they excel at, are merely good at and for which you should consider this other handpiece. The different tweezers and hot air pencils spring to mind.
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We are about to announce a Firmware Rev "1-4" later on in the week. At that time, I will give instructions as to how any PACE customers on EEVBlog with Rev 1-1, 1-2 or 1-3 can obtain a free upgrade.
Aaron
Any status on the update?
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We are about to announce a Firmware Rev "1-4" later on in the week. At that time, I will give instructions as to how any PACE customers on EEVBlog with Rev 1-1, 1-2 or 1-3 can obtain a free upgrade.
Aaron
Any status on the update?
I'll have something for you later on today.
Aaron
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ADS200 Firmware Update Rev 1-4 now available
Finally, I’m getting ready to send out a new “1-4” ADS200 firmware PLCC-44 chip. If you would like to try it out, free of charge, please send me a message with a good shipping address and email. Also mention if you need a Chip Puller to remove the PLCC, as I will provide that too. See the attached ADS200-chip-change.pdf file I have attached below for installation instructions. It's pretty straight forward.
The differences between Rev 1-3 (only sent to a few beta testers) and Rev 1-4 are minimal but the differences between Rev 1-1 or 1-2 are significant. The new firmware takes care of several nagging issues reported in EEVBlog:
- The wacky display screen antics during initial heat-up: by changing some timing code, we were able to curtail the random screen updates that were occurring when you first turn the unit on. Apparently, the unit reacts better if it is not running 100% of wattage when it first turns on. Our engineer also claims the tips heat up faster, although I could not notice any discernible difference myself.
- 5° Display Resolution is now 1°: The display will register in 1° increments rather than 5° increments now. When you set or view temperature, it will actually show the correct temperature e.g. 352°C or 353°C instead of 350 or 355°C. As a result, the display is much more reactive, meaning if you stick it on the sponge, it will drop a few degrees after 1 or 2 seconds. Before the display would just sit there, even though it was accurately reading the proper internal temperature.
- ISB Instant Setback Tool Stand: The ISB can now be programmed to be truly “instant.” While the ADS200 has a default setting of 30 seconds before Setback starts, it can now be set in 1-second increments from “0” (instantly goes into Setback as soon as you place it in the stand) to 240 seconds. Before the minimum setting was 15 seconds.
Shipping to US customers is a breeze, but outside of the US may take more time as we have to gather customs paperwork, etc.
I think you'll like the changes in the ADS200, so message me if you want the new chip sent!
Best,
Aaron
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Aaron,
thanks for the update on the firmware. In your opinion, what would be a good time frame to wait for TEquipment or similar sites to be shipping ADS200 units with Rev 1-4 firmware already installed?
I have personally been waiting for TEquipment to get a few more tips in stock before placing my order, so I don't mind waiting a bit longer before my purchase.
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Msg sent Aaron :)
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Aaron,
Thank you very much for sending the firmware update and goodies. Much appreciated. Everything works perfectly.
Dave
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Sent PM too. I hope it's not too late ::)
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Sent PM too. I hope it's not too late ::)
It's never too late!
Aaron
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I’ve been looking for a good station for a new robotics program. Since these will be used by numerous kids who are new to soldering, they have to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t mind paying for quality, but, since we need multiple stations, the tips need to be be durable and reasonably priced. It came down to the Hakko fx888d or Pace ads200.
I bought an ADS200, it appeared to be overshooting the temp, but then I saw Dave’s video. Hopefully the new firmware will address this.
Now I just need to get some different tips, I have a lot of projects stacked up to solder and test.
Thanks for the excellent forum, it is invaluable. I finally created an account so I can hopefully give something back!
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I’ve been looking for a good station for a new robotics program. Since these will be used by numerous kids who are new to soldering, they have to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t mind paying for quality, but, since we need multiple stations, the tips need to be be durable and reasonably priced. It came down to the Hakko fx888d or Pace ads200.
I bought an ADS200, it appeared to be overshooting the temp, but then I saw Dave’s video. Hopefully the new firmware will address this.
Now I just need to get some different tips, I have a lot of projects stacked up to solder and test.
Thanks for the excellent forum, it is invaluable. I finally created an account so I can hopefully give something back!
The new "1-4" firmware should resolve the display overshoot issue. I'll be send a new Chip out next week.
Thanks,
Aaron
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I’ve been looking for a good station for a new robotics program. Since these will be used by numerous kids who are new to soldering, they have to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t mind paying for quality, but, since we need multiple stations, the tips need to be be durable and reasonably priced. It came down to the Hakko fx888d or Pace ads200.
Congrats PixieWrestler, I think you made a good choice. The ADS200 has the extra power availability, doing connectors or any high thermal mass joints will be a breeze. As the kids improve in skill, perfect iron for fine smd work and good ergonomics for small hands (and adults).
What country is your program based in?
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Congrats PixieWrestler, I think you made a good choice. The ADS200 has the extra power availability, doing connectors or any high thermal mass joints will be a breeze. As the kids improve in skill, perfect iron for fine smd work and good ergonomics for small hands (and adults).
What country is your program based in?
Thanks Shock! We are in the USA. I am very impressed with Pace’s response to the minor nuisance of the temp display.
For the first unit, I didn’t get the auto setback upgrade, I can’t decide if that is something we’ll need for the additional units.
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Thanks Shock! We are in the USA. I am very impressed with Pace’s response to the minor nuisance of the temp display. For the first unit, I didn’t get the auto setback upgrade, I can’t decide if that is something we’ll need for the additional units.
It just gives you more flexibility for stop/start soldering. Now with the 1-4 firmware it's configurable so that instant setback can be set to go low temp immediately as you return the iron. The other advantage is you pull the iron out of the stand and it tells the station it's go time again (as opposed to cleaning the tip or pressing a button). People who always tin their tips properly before returning the iron to the stand might prefer it as well.
It's not essential but you could always try it and if you don't like the stand tethered to the station disconnect or remove the cable later.
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Does anyone know if current stock at TEquipment contains the latest firmware?
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I called TEquipment. They confirmed with Pace that the recent shipment shipment of ADS200 with instant setback stand DOES contain the most recent firmware.
BTW their website shows no stock but they actually have 16 units. Maybe call to confirm if you wish to place an order.
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I called TEquipment. They confirmed with Pace that the recent shipment shipment of ADS200 with instant setback stand DOES contain the most recent firmware.
BTW their website shows no stock but they actually have 16 units. Maybe call to confirm if you wish to place an order.
Sorry for the delay in answering this ... was at 2 Trade Shows the last 2 weeks, so I've been shirking my duties. In any case, I called TEquipment this morning, and they confirmed that they only have the newest versions of ADS200. So all the stock they have at the present time should have Firmware Rev 1-4.
Again, please message me if you need the latest firmware Rev 1-4, and I'll ship it out.
Thanks again,
Aaron
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labjr/Aaron,
thanks for the updates on TEquipment inventory for the newest firmwar ADS200s. A question for the those that purchase from them, do u know if there will be any sort of Black Friday sale (based on previous years) that might surpass the regular forum discount?
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labjr/Aaron,
thanks for the updates on TEquipment inventory for the newest firmwar ADS200s. A question for the those that purchase from them, do u know if there will be any sort of Black Friday sale (based on previous years) that might surpass the regular forum discount?
Aaron mentioned a while ago that the margins are pretty tight on the Pace ADS200, but you could try hitting Evan up from Tequipment.net who is the on the forum here, to see if there is any special above our regular 6% off and free shipping he can do. Who knows he might be able to throw in a free tip or something.
Evans username on the forums is tequipment (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=690) I think he has email notifications on so should see he has been messaged.
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How are the tweezers coming along? The blue rubber on the ones I use are now shot. The rubber has started to fall apart and it's very sticky. I looked on PACE's site along with Jensen Tools to get a new set and it seems that no parts are available for the tweezers beyond the tips. At $200, I would expect to be able to maintain them. Hope when/if you produce tweezers for the new station, you keep that same size and feel plus offer replacement parts.
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How are the tweezers coming along? The blue rubber on the ones I use are now shot. The rubber has started to fall apart and it's very sticky. I looked on PACE's site along with Jensen Tools to get a new set and it seems that no parts are available for the tweezers beyond the tips. At $200, I would expect to be able to maintain them. Hope when/if you produce tweezers for the new station, you keep that same size and feel plus offer replacement parts.
You're right about the lack of replacement parts for the MT-100. But we do have replacement grips for your handpiece. It's called the MT-100 Lead-Free Soft Grips PN 1119-0177-P2 ($41.47 pair) and they only come in "lead-free green" color as we can no supply the original blue colored grip.
We are still working on an ADS200-compatible thermal tweezer that will be introduced at late January's IPC Apex Show in San Diego.
I'll pass your comments on to the PACE team.
Thanks,
Aaron
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Just upgraded the firmware of my ADS200 stations to 1-4 thanks Aaron and Pace!
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Looks like I finally got my new toy in the mail ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/VuZ6weO.jpg)
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Just a simple question guys, what is the benefit of this one over Hakko fx-888d?
I got the hakko as a present from my brother which is gonna replace my beloved Chinese Yihua 908 station... I wonder what are the benefits of this Pace one over the famous hakko? remember the huge price difference.
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Just a simple question guys, what is the benefit of this one over Hakko fx-888d?
The ADS200 uses tip-heater cartridges, where the heater and temperature sensor are built into the tip. The cartridges are only made by Pace, but they are quite affordable compared to some brands ($11 each). Replacing cartridges is very fast as they plug into the handle.
The Hakko FX888D tips are separate from the heater, so the control loop is looser. This has different tradeoffs, for the tips are cheaper and available from multiple vendors in different countries (the same tips as the old Hakko 936). Hakko sells tips for $9.50 each, and they are less from other companies (Plato sells them for less than $5 each). The heat recovery is slower and replacing tips is more work (you need to loosen a nut and remove a sleeve to take the tip off). The Hakko has half the heating power, with 65W compared to 120W, so it can't perform as well on boards with very large heatsinks. For most jobs the Hakko is suitable, some users just prefer higher performance.
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I wonder what are the benefits of this Pace one over the famous hakko?
The Hakko FX888D is 65W and plastic construction with low cost tips. It has a fairly small desk footprint.
The Pace ADS200 is twice as powerful at 120W and has far superior tip heating/accuracy/swapping/work distance/power saving features. It is all metal construction, easy to operate and has an ergonomic cool touch handle. Uses cartridge tips which contain the heater, which are also comparatively low cost and well under the competition. Pace stations are designed to take additional handpieces, such as the tweezers they are releasing next year.
The difference between the two (and even the Hakko FX951, 70W station) is quite noticeable. They both solder but even if on a limited budget the Pace ADS200 is the way to go and worth saving up the extra $100 for in my opinion.
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I wonder what are the benefits of this Pace one over the famous hakko?
The Hakko FX888D is 65W and plastic construction with low cost tips. It has a fairly small desk footprint.
The Pace ADS200 is twice as powerful at 120W and has far superior tip heating/accuracy/swapping/work distance/power saving features. It is all metal construction, easy to operate and has an ergonomic cool touch handle. Uses cartridge tips which contain the heater, which are also comparatively low cost and well under the competition. Pace stations are designed to take additional handpieces, such as the tweezers they are releasing next year.
The difference between the two (and even the Hakko FX951, 70W station) is quite noticeable. They both solder but even if on a limited budget the Pace ADS200 is the way to go and worth saving up the extra $100 for in my opinion.
Well, for me and many others, I don't do heavy soldering jobs thus Yihua 908 did the job nicely for me for more than a year now. I wasted the chisel tip which is what I use most, thus I can buy 5 of it for 2$.
However, I always wanted a Hakko fx-888D and finally my brother gave it to me as a gift. I could buy it though since it is just 90$ but shipping was very expensive to Jordan. He resides in Dubai so he got it cheaply and just took it with him to Jordan.
So, it is not worth extra 120$ to get the Pace one in my opinion... for me of course.
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Looks like I finally got my new toy in the mail ;D
Congrats! Nothing like a new firestick to bash around :)
I ended up with a few extra tips to try out and have some double ups. If you want a couple send me a PM and I'll put them in a small post bag for you.
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Looks like I finally got my new toy in the mail ;D
Congrats! Nothing like a new firestick to bash around :)
I ended up with a few extra tips to try out and have some double ups. If you want a couple send me a PM and I'll put them in a small post bag for you.
Unfortunately, for some reason it took Mektronics a month to actually ship it to me. I also asked if it was possible to get a discount on the ~$550 list price, and I had to go through some convoluted process where they changed the price on the website itself temporarily just so I could buy it and then change it back after I did. All that and a few days later it went on sale for the same price ???
Are you sure you're willing to just give away your extra tips to me?
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Are you sure you're willing to just give away your extra tips to me?
Yeah I have a few spares and some consumables as well. I'll send you a PM.
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Aaron,
I was very excited to learn about new ADS200 station, which would be excellent price/performance device. (I think) pricing is important in the ADS200 offering, thus I am curious to what extent you have influence over the pricing of your distributors?
The reason for asking is that your Russian distributor sells ADS200 with standard tool stand for 364 USD at current exchange rate, which is way off from European pricing at your Finnish distributor, and 40 % above the tequipment pricing (without 6% discount for eevblog members).... at that price point (I believe) ADS200 with instant set back stand is getting quite close to JBC compact station....
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Aaron,
I was very excited to learn about new ADS200 station, which would be excellent price/performance device. (I think) pricing is important in the ADS200 offering, thus I am curious to what extent you have influence over the pricing of your distributors?
The reason for asking is that your Russian distributor sells ADS200 with standard tool stand for 364 USD at current exchange rate, which is way off from European pricing at your Finnish distributor, and 40 % above the tequipment pricing (without 6% discount for eevblog members).... I that price point (I believe) ADS200 with instant set back stand is getting quite close to JBC compact station....
I would say PACE has about a 25% influence over pricing, which isn’t much. In the US, it is actually illegal to dictate prices to distributors. It is considered to be a form of price-fixing. We can “highly recommend” or “strongly suggest” that a distributor lower their prices if we think they are gouging customers. But distributors set their own pricing, and usually do so based on a set discount PACE provides against a published list price. I don’t know why distributors in Russia charge more for PACE product as I am not directly involved in that side of the company, but I suspect their costs (shipping/duties/tariffs, etc) are far higher than Tequipment’s, a distributor located about a 6 hour drive from PACE’s factory in NC. It would not surprise me if the shipping cost of an ADS200 box were US$75-$100 by the time it gets to Russia, whereas it’s only $4/box for Tequipment, who buy at least 50-100 units at a time. The Finnish distributor is likely willing to make less margin than the Russian distributor but that's just opinion, I really don't know.
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I would say PACE has about a 25% influence over pricing, which isn’t much. In the US, it is actually illegal to dictate prices to distributors. It is considered to be a form of price-fixing. We can “highly recommend” or “strongly suggest” that a distributor lower their prices if we think they are gouging customers. But distributors set their own pricing, and usually do so based on a set discount PACE provides against a published list price. I don’t know why distributors in Russia charge more for PACE product as I am not directly involved in that side of the company, but I suspect their costs (shipping/duties/tariffs, etc) are far higher than Tequipment’s, a distributor located about a 6 hour drive from PACE’s factory in NC. It would not surprise me if the shipping cost of an ADS200 box were US$75-$100 by the time it gets to Russia, whereas it’s only $4/box for Tequipment, who buy at least 50-100 units at a time. The Finnish distributor is likely willing to make less margin than the Russian distributor but that's just opinion, I really don't know.
Aaron, thanks for reply. For your information - there is 0 % (zero) custom duty on soldering stations (just checked). Of course, there is a VAT 18%, which is neutral, since it is paid by importer on the border, then distributor (importer) is reimbursed by customers who pay 18% VAT but from the retail price (which is obviously higher).
As transportation costs are concerned - I am (as private individual) pay something like 14 USD per kilo for air delivery, for business customers carrying loads and boxes, pricing starting from 3 USD per kilo (real figure).
So, probably, you can figure out what makes Russian prices so interesting)).
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I'm wondering why the 1/8" 30 Degree Chisel tips are more expensive than the other tips in both the Standard and the Ultra Series?
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I'm wondering why the 1/8" 30 Degree Chisel tips are more expensive than the other tips in both the Standard and the Ultra Series?
The short answer is they cost us more to manufacture. Standard 1/8"/3.18mm 30° Chisel Tip PN 1130-0051-P1 and it's Ultra-Performance version PN 1131-0051-P1 were originally custom created for a specific customer, and I think we had to perform some secondary operation (like extra plating) to manufacture the tips to specification. It other cases, it's simply harder to plate and manufacture the tip (Knife-Tips and ultra-fine point tips are an example), so those cost more too, which will be reflected in a higher list price. In general, if the tip shape requires a secondary operation, the price will go up.
Aaron
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Notice to All:
By now, many of you have seen Dave's latest soldering station related video: EEVBlog #1160 - Weller Responds! concerning the safety of the Weller 1010.
I just wanted you to know that the fuse in the back of the ADS200 is in the primary side of the transformer for safety. On all of our products, we have always had a fuse (or circuit breaker) as the first items on the Mains. Since the Weller 1010 is more of a budget station, I suspect they probably omitted the fuse as a cost-cutting measure. If you look at the ADS200 back panel image attached, you'll note PACE even supplies an extra fuse (not that you'll ever need to use it)!
Aaron
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Does anyone know how the ADS200 compares to the Hakko FX-951, with both being around the same price? I'm mostly concerned with performance.
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Notice to All:
By now, many of you have seen Dave's latest soldering station related video: EEVBlog #1160 - Weller Responds! concerning the safety of the Weller 1010.
I just wanted you to know that the fuse in the back of the ADS200 is in the primary side of the transformer for safety. On all of our products, we have always had a fuse (or circuit breaker) as the first items on the Mains. Since the Weller 1010 is more of a budget station, I suspect they probably omitted the fuse as a cost-cutting measure. If you look at the ADS200 back panel image attached, you'll note PACE even supplies an extra fuse (not that you'll ever need to use it)!
Aaron
Can you comment on what safety approvals the station actually has. I don't see anything mentioned in the documentation/website about agency approvals or a certification label on the product. Nice to mention ESD standards though.
I could not find Pace soldering stations listed in the UL on-line certifications database.
I look to ensure a product is not "designed to" or "meets requirements of" but has instead has been assessed by an accredited agency when it comes to safety.
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Notice to All:
By now, many of you have seen Dave's latest soldering station related video: EEVBlog #1160 - Weller Responds! concerning the safety of the Weller 1010.
I just wanted you to know that the fuse in the back of the ADS200 is in the primary side of the transformer for safety. On all of our products, we have always had a fuse (or circuit breaker) as the first items on the Mains. Since the Weller 1010 is more of a budget station, I suspect they probably omitted the fuse as a cost-cutting measure. If you look at the ADS200 back panel image attached, you'll note PACE even supplies an extra fuse (not that you'll ever need to use it)!
Aaron
Can you comment on what safety approvals the station actually has. I don't see anything mentioned in the documentation/website about agency approvals or a certification label on the product. Nice to mention ESD standards though.
I could not find Pace soldering stations listed in the UL on-line certifications database.
I look to ensure a product is not "designed to" or "meets requirements of" but has instead has been assessed by an accredited agency when it comes to safety.
All of our Soldering Stations are CSA/CE approved, which is equivalent to UL approval.
Aaron
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Adding an ISB micro-switch is not so easy unless Pace wants to sell these little stainless plates (with threaded holes). As I am always curious, I just had to "take-a-gander" with calipers ready. Here's an idea of what I'm 100% sure no-one will want to fabricate: SS 0.75 mm THICK (If this thing was Asian crap, soft metal would be used..)
MICRO-SWITCH: 1.6 mm HOLES x2 at 6.0 mm SPACING
Red Lines in mm on 2 attached pics:
A - 4.6
B - 7.7
C - 25.1
D - 24.3
E - 20.7
F - 4.0
G - 13.3
H - 3.0
I - 20.0
J - 3.8
K - 17.6
L - 2.4
M - 7.9
N - 6.6
O - 19.5
P - 6.0
Q - 9.0
R - 18.9
S - 9.1
Still don't know why I posted this, but obviously I had time without chestnuts roasting by an open fire.. :-DD
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Does anyone know how the ADS200 compares to the Hakko FX-951, with both being around the same price? I'm mostly concerned with performance.
I don't think there is anything the Hakko FX-951 does better. The Pace ADS 200 is built from more expensive materials (metal rather than plastic), higher power, more accurate and faster heating, requires no calibration, has an easier interface and clearer display. The Paces iron aside from being aluminum is shorter and doesn't require padding to dissipate heat, or expensive plastic tip holders.
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I need a new soldering station and I'm considering the ads200 since I had a good experience with a second hand pace (clearly beaten up but worked like a champ) but i'd like the ability to swap it to 230V if I ever move to a different country -- is there some way of getting this one serviced if I ever need to change the voltage? (Maybe swap out the transformer?)
I really wonder why there's no built in switch. Would it really have cost a lot more?
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Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
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Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
Probably easier to use a step-down transformer.
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As much as I prefer devices that you don't have to buy over again when moving from the US to Europe or back, there may be components besides the transformer that are specialized for each region in a modern soldering station. The control loop needs to run every AC half-cycle, and it may need different coefficients for 100 Hz and 120 Hz, so this would mean a different ROM.
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Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
Probably easier to use a step-down transformer.
No fun in that
Also a good safe step down transformer is more expensive than a new soldering iron
The engineer in me bristles at having two transformers when a switch could do the job
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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No fun in that
Also a good safe step down transformer is more expensive than a new soldering iron
The engineer in me bristles at having two transformers when a switch could do the job
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Voltage converter transformers are a dime a dozen on ebay. You can get a 2,000 watt one on eBay for $55 and use it for other 120V equipment too. Doesn't have to be anything special. It's a transformer for gosh sakes!
I suppose could add another primary winding or unwind some of the secondary.
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Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
You can find a bit more about the transformer in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660)
There is enough space to fit a ~90VA transformer inside (120va is not required since Pace only uses full power sporadically)
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You can find a bit more about the transformer in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660)
There is enough space to fit a ~90VA transformer inside (120va is not required since Pace only uses full power sporadically)
So one could wind a new secondary and leave the existing secondary disconnected?
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No fun in that
Also a good safe step down transformer is more expensive than a new soldering iron
The engineer in me bristles at having two transformers when a switch could do the job
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Voltage converter transformers are a dime a dozen on ebay. You can get a 2,000 watt one on eBay for $55 and use it for other 120V equipment too. Doesn't have to be anything special. It's a transformer for gosh sakes!
I suppose could add another primary winding or unwind some of the secondary.
If I'm going to do this I'm going to do this truly hackish way. Also I don't trust those shitbox ebay transformers, especially not with mains electricity on the line. I don't trust myself either, but I'm reckless.
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Looking at the teardown videos, 230V station seems to have windings in series. It might be dual voltage trafo, just no switch.
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Looking at the teardown videos, 230V station seems to have windings in series. It might be dual voltage trafo, just no switch.
Interesting. Would be cool if a Pace employee could confirm -- I'm happy to make a little mod inside.
Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
You can find a bit more about the transformer in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660)
There is enough space to fit a ~90VA transformer inside (120va is not required since Pace only uses full power sporadically)
Nice, this is very helpful. i was looking at 120-160VA toroids and they are like $60 which is expensive but not new soldering iron expensive.
Maybe I missed it but what does it output on the secondary? 12VAC?
As much as I prefer devices that you don't have to buy over again when moving from the US to Europe or back, there may be components besides the transformer that are specialized for each region in a modern soldering station. The control loop needs to run every AC half-cycle, and it may need different coefficients for 100 Hz and 120 Hz, so this would mean a different ROM.
Yeah this would be the bad case, but I question what engineer would not simply abstract this and simply deal with zero-crossing points (I'm assuming some kind of triac control into the iron?) You already have to deal with whatever grid instability there is anyway.
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It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.
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It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.
Awesome. I think I can cram a https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d)
and then drill some holes for the DPDT slide switch.
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It may be easier to mount a square transformer like a Hammond 185F24
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/185F24-BULK?qs=jVNfTZ92j2tcQKKtg76oOQ%3D%3D (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/185F24-BULK?qs=jVNfTZ92j2tcQKKtg76oOQ%3D%3D)
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E/I transformers with separated bobbins have higher class insulation.
They are prefered for this kind of use. Trafo that labjr mentioned looks really good for this.
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It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.
Awesome. I think I can cram a https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d)
and then drill some holes for the DPDT slide switch.
Be aware that putting that 4.1 amp toroidal transformer into the case, may cause an increase of ~2 volts AC and present up to 40 volts DC at the regulator (max allowable) and likely require a larger heat sink.. To avoid cooking the regulator with your new transformer (and maybe the whole PCB), drop the input to the regulator by 5 to 10 volts. You could do it easy with a series string of 1N400x diodes or a 7805 and a 10 ohm 2-watt resistor in current limiter configuration.
The default Pace transformer presents 33v to the regulator (at 120vac line) and almost 35v (at max 126vac line). Too close for comfort.. There's plenty of room for a larger heat sink (see attached pic)
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I'm surprised someone has not yet made a fancy drop-in control board for the ADS200?
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Where is the firmware history for the ADS-200?
This fellow upgrades from 1.2 to 1.3 to stop temperature display readings from wandering around.
It's a socketed PLCC MCU swap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHY2X6eG26I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHY2X6eG26I)
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I bought mine from Accessotronics (Ottawa) 3 weeks ago and it came with v1.4
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Aaron,
Is 1.4 now the current firmware?
Also, I have not seen any discussions on this recently, but how has the tip/holder redesign worked out? I remember that some early adopters were having trouble w/the gasket in the handle coming out of position and causing the tips to not fit properly--was this completely resolved?
thanks.
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I'm surprised someone has not yet made a fancy drop-in control board for the ADS200?
I made my own that uses a buck converter + LDO instead of the linear regulator with heatsink. I also switched to a TFT screen so I had to make a new front panel. It's been taking forever to finish the firmware since I don't have a lot of free time for it.
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It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.
Awesome. I think I can cram a https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d)
and then drill some holes for the DPDT slide switch.
Be aware that putting that 4.1 amp toroidal transformer into the case, may cause an increase of ~2 volts AC and present up to 40 volts DC at the regulator (max allowable) and likely require a larger heat sink.. To avoid cooking the regulator with your new transformer (and maybe the whole PCB), drop the input to the regulator by 5 to 10 volts. You could do it easy with a series string of 1N400x diodes or a 7805 and a 10 ohm 2-watt resistor in current limiter configuration.
The default Pace transformer presents 33v to the regulator (at 120vac line) and almost 35v (at max 126vac line). Too close for comfort.. There's plenty of room for a larger heat sink (see attached pic)
Well yeah that's the peak equivalent of 24VRMS. For a given transformer the ratio is fixed so unless I suddenly get a 135V/270V mains (bigger problems!) it'll always be under 40V. On top of that that's just the peak voltage so it's only going to need to dissipate that for a small section of the cycle. I guess I could whack in a diode, but why bother?
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I'm surprised someone has not yet made a fancy drop-in control board for the ADS200?
I made my own that uses a buck converter + LDO instead of the linear regulator with heatsink. I also switched to a TFT screen so I had to make a new front panel. It's been taking forever to finish the firmware since I don't have a lot of free time for it.
This is super cool. Would you mind sharing more? I think pace could really use an engineer that understands UI design. I really don't understand why this sucker costs $250. Grab a decent switcher that outputs 24V, a couple of power FETs to handle switching and a $1 micro to handle the control of the LCD + power. I guess the R&D behind the handpiece and tips is a worth a good amount but the ts-100 shows that you can make entire tip-heater cartridge system for < $100. At the end of the day it's "just" a temperature controlled heating element. I'm sure Pace has 60+ years of experience for a reason, but it's fun to speculate.
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There are a lot more things that go into the cost of a product than the parts, or even R&D. Logistics, design validation, certification, overhead, marketing, warranty fulfillment, and doubtless many more I’m not even thinking of.
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The ADS200 station seems like a bargain. The comparison to TS100 is not apples to apples. That thing is sold on ebay and Alibaba. It runs on batteries or an AC adapter which has to be purchased separately. It's probably not certified for commercial use. It's made in China. Probably wouldn't stand up to use for production line. Got a neat OLED display though!
Pace is made in USA. They have great support. So the UI is a bit old fashioned. It gets the job done. And leaves hobbyists with motivation to devise some good after-market mods.
Any out there think they can make it cheaper and actually do it for a livelihood?
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It is a very good price for the technology used. I am very happy with the purchase and price.
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Is 1.4 now the current firmware?
Also, I have not seen any discussions on this recently, but how has the tip/holder redesign worked out? I remember that some early adopters were having trouble w/the gasket in the handle coming out of position and causing the tips to not fit properly--was this completely resolved?
In the 1.4 firmware it includes a smoother single digit temp control and display, the heating profile was also improved on. I'm running this and works well for me, Pace did a good job.
Tip and iron problem was solved almost straight away. Unless you were in the very first batch it won't affect you.
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There are a lot more things that go into the cost of a product than the parts, or even R&D. Logistics, design validation, certification, overhead, marketing, warranty fulfillment, and doubtless many more I’m not even thinking of.
It's a basic soldering station. Pace has over half a century of experience. If they aren't making a huge net margin something is wrong. It's not rocket science.
I am happy to pay for it, I like paying for American engineering that will outlive me. But for $250 I expect things like "switchable voltage" or "firmware upgrades that don't need a chip mailed to me" or "Tft screen".
None of those would take a huge amount of extra engineering, since the Chinese have apparently been able to figure that out at a fraction of the cost.
Would be a fun project.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes,yes, please go ahead and do it and share with us how it goes, and do not forget about plating the tips your fun project will be worthless without.
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Obviously the margin has been cut the be more competitive with Hakko etc. So they reused the basic design of the old stations. Though, not sure why they didn't use a dual voltage transformer? Maybe has to do with protecting foreign markets? But then again Euro price sheet shows nearly identical prices. I bet Hakko does it for that reason.
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Yes,yes, please go ahead and do it and share with us how it goes, and do not forget about plating the tips your fun project will be worthless without.
::) :clap:
Man you need to be less of a dick. In fact, Unisolder shows that it can be done by hobbyists.
Leverage the difficult-for-hobbyists hardware (tip fabrication, hand piece) part built by others, and exploit cheap manufacturing of PCBs + shift burden to software which is quick to iterate.
There's a reason most American manufacturers died off, they couldn't decouple their slow-moving processes from processes that needed to move faster. I hope Pace can keep up and isn't kept alive by "buy American" diehards like me.
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Obviously the margin has been cut the be more competitive with Hakko etc. So they reused the basic design of the old stations. Though, not sure why they didn't use a dual voltage transformer? Maybe has to do with protecting foreign markets? But then again Euro price sheet shows nearly identical prices. I bet Hakko does it for that reason.
Yes it's kind of baffling. They would need to stock 2 different SKUs (and they are smart enough to turn their 3 buttons into 1 assembly??) and deal with all of those supply chain problems with sourcing 2 different transformers from their supplier.
My guess is that they don't sell a lot of the 220V version for it to be worth spending the extra cost on the 110V version to have the extra winding. Of course, it's a chicken-and-egg thing: if they built a global version perhaps they could sell more globally...
I generally wonder why they bother with linear transformers when 90-120W 19V SMPS supplies are ultra cheap due to the scale of laptop manufacturing. Noise?
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They probably use linear supplies because using switching supplies would require an entire redesign and certification etc. They've been using linear supplies forever. Why change? I still say the single voltage transformer is for market protection. Most of the larger manufacturers of soldering stations do the same. Maybe distributors won't commit to taking the line if there's a possibility of competition with gray market goods.
The ISB jack is on the back of Non-ISB stations. Why didn't they leave that off if they're trying to save cost?
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I'm so excited this thread is back to bikeshedding. :popcorn:
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Obviously the margin has been cut the be more competitive with Hakko etc. So they reused the basic design of the old stations. Though, not sure why they didn't use a dual voltage transformer? Maybe has to do with protecting foreign markets? But then again Euro price sheet shows nearly identical prices. I bet Hakko does it for that reason.
Yes it's kind of baffling. They would need to stock 2 different SKUs (and they are smart enough to turn their 3 buttons into 1 assembly??) and deal with all of those supply chain problems with sourcing 2 different transformers from their supplier.
My guess is that they don't sell a lot of the 220V version for it to be worth spending the extra cost on the 110V version to have the extra winding. Of course, it's a chicken-and-egg thing: if they built a global version perhaps they could sell more globally...
I generally wonder why they bother with linear transformers when 90-120W 19V SMPS supplies are ultra cheap due to the scale of laptop manufacturing. Noise?
On Dave's teardown it can be clearly seen that 230(240)V version has two primary windings in series. It doesn't have 120/240V switch but trafo is universal, at least that one was...
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Yes,yes, please go ahead and do it and share with us how it goes, and do not forget about plating the tips your fun project will be worthless without.
::) :clap:
Man you need to be less of a dick. In fact, Unisolder shows that it can be done by hobbyists.
Leverage the difficult-for-hobbyists hardware (tip fabrication, hand piece) part built by others, and exploit cheap manufacturing of PCBs + shift burden to software which is quick to iterate.
There's a reason most American manufacturers died off, they couldn't decouple their slow-moving processes from processes that needed to move faster. I hope Pace can keep up and isn't kept alive by "buy American" diehards like me.
Sorry to disappoint you but , from engineering standpoint, Unisolder is horrible engineering. It is horribly overspecified on BOM, left in beta stage of development, and is exactly what you call it: something being done by hobbyist, who will do it for fun doing it, and not because it will provide excellent service and be economical. And you can tweak it and experiment with it and have fun.
There is nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong, but if you buy soldering station as a tool, ADS200 is highly professional tool for a fantastic price.
I solder for 40 years, and I can tell you that I never said " oh my, I wouldn't care if my soldering iron has enough power to melt this connector, if only I had wanky 8" touch screen that will show animations and fancy graphs..." I couldn't care less. If soldering iron had good regulation, had good tips and had enough power for the job, you would pretty much never look at the screen.
Frankly, to me it is refreshing that Pace keeps making top quality "old school" equipment, instead of new trend that behaves like pro tools should be like digital toys for gaming... More design that substance..
I'm waiting for a new thermal tweezers for ADS200 to be released, and will then buy ADS200 + tweezers. I think nothing else on market has so good price/performance.
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On Dave's teardown it can be clearly seen that 230(240)V version has two primary windings in series. It doesn't have 120/240V switch but trafo is universal, at least that one was...
Interesting. I watched the video again. It would appear that there are two primary windings. However, Dave didn't mention that. And while he has it apart, he says "It's not switchable. You have to get the correct transformer for your region."
Has anyone confirmed that there are are actually two primaries?
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BTW, I'm wondering which tips everyone is using? Does, say an Ultra series 3/32 chisel tip have a large performance difference over a 3/32 Standard series chisel tip? Any reason not to use Ultra over the Standard or vice versa.
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Like labjr, I am also interested in any feedback on the tips, especially in regards to the Standard vs Ultra-Performance version of the same tips--basically, are they worth the upgrade? Also, is TEquipment is actually stocking most of the tips now? --as they don't seem to show parts with live/current inventory and I don't want to buy the station then have to wait for a bunch of tips to come back in stock.
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If the 240V version really does have a transformer with two primary windings and all I need to do is add a voltage selector switch, that would change my decision about buying this station.
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I wonder why not having select from the factory.
Anyway, it's interesting to see good old mains transformers. I thought everyone migrated to smps due to cost and weight. Esp. because there are ready commercial modules of all flavors. A good smsps has universal 90-260V input :). Probably, the argument here will be the same as why it doesn't have a better screen, rotary encoder and flashable firmware.
Concerning tip technology, I wonder how Pace compares to Chinese t12 clones.
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I understand the theory behind the Ultra series tips. Provides a flywheel effect. But would like to know if the extra mass of the Ultra series tips has a noticeable effect on performance in real world application. I'd think a 120w station would be able to keep up while using regular tips. The cost difference is negligible. I'd just rather not have a larger mass obstructing my view any more than necessary. Especially while soldering small stuff.
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I like high performance tips but can't comment much on noticeable thermal effects of smaller tips (like 1130-0013 foreground) since much of my work is heavy duty (100w iron shown for comparison).
On the big 1131-0055 tip there's a problem.. I'm now on my 2nd unit after >30,000 components desoldered and it's likely because the stand can catch on the tip during removal. The aluminum casting on the stand needed some beveling to stop big hot tips from pulling out and dropping off my bench |O
Most owners should be aware that 5-minutes of filing will stop some frustration and maybe even some burn accidents.
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Where is the firmware history for the ADS-200?
This fellow upgrades from 1.2 to 1.3 to stop temperature display readings from wandering around.
It's a socketed PLCC MCU swap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHY2X6eG26I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHY2X6eG26I)
hmm, my video, they sent that firmware pretty fast after my first video and comment on the bouncing display. I was just searching around the web to see if there was a firmware change-log and to see if they had a new firmware revision. There has been no issues that I have seen so far with the 1.3 I installed in that video, but I was curious what changes if any they made between that and the 1.4 firmware. I guess I will just need to contact pace again to get the info.
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...I was just searching around the web to see if there was a firmware change-log and to see if they had a new firmware revision. There has been no issues that I have seen so far with the 1.3 I installed in that video, but I was curious what changes if any they made between that and the 1.4 firmware. I guess I will just need to contact pace again to get the info.
That's rare.. not many have 1-3!! There seems to be all the final refinements working in 1-4 (you will like it especially if you have the ISB stand, because when the display says OFF, a removal turns the iron on but the display continues saying OFF..).
The 1-4 announcement was October 1st: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1863201/#msg1863201 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1863201/#msg1863201)
1-3 to 1-4 change log was Oct 11th: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1886375/#msg1886375 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1886375/#msg1886375)
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That's rare.. not many have 1-3!! There seems to be all the final refinements working in 1-4 (you will like it especially if you have the ISB stand, because when the display says OFF, a removal turns the iron on but the display continues saying OFF..).
The 1-4 announcement was October 1st: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1863201/#msg1863201 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1863201/#msg1863201)
1-3 to 1-4 change log was Oct 11th: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1886375/#msg1886375 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1886375/#msg1886375)
Yeah, they sent me 1.3 shortly after I did my unboxing/quick first impression video in response to the display bouncing comments. I wanted to use the iron for a while before I did a full proper review of it rather than rushing something out, sort of a "I have used this as my only iron for 6 months, here is the verdict". The video that I quoted was when I installed the 1.3 :) It did fix things over the 1.2.
Really rare you say? XD *looks around to see if there is a rare pace collectors market* jk :> I buy tools to be used.
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Hi EEVbloggers!
This is Aaron from PACE Worldwide, here to answer your questions about the new ADS200 AccuDrive Soldering Station (finally)! Sorry it’s taken this long, but I don’t get online as much as I should. I’ll try to answer some of the questions I’ve seen in this thread. Please feel free to comment.
...
Mini-Tweezers: I showed one of the prototypes to ransonjd (EEVblog member who mentioned that he soldered the pennies together at the APEX Show), and this handpiece will become available in mid-Summer. It will be compatible with the ADS200 only, not previous PACE soldering stations (ST 50, WJS 100, etc). We have a ton of tooling on this handpiece, and some of the longer lead-time items will take up to 3 months to receive after final design.
...
I’d be glad to answer any other questions you have. Please feel free to comment below!
Best,
Aaron from PACE
I looks like they are still not available. Any update?
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I looks like they are still not available. Any update?
You having memory issues?
How are the tweezers coming along? The blue rubber on the ones I use are now shot. The rubber has started to fall apart and it's very sticky. I looked on PACE's site along with Jensen Tools to get a new set and it seems that no parts are available for the tweezers beyond the tips. At $200, I would expect to be able to maintain them. Hope when/if you produce tweezers for the new station, you keep that same size and feel plus offer replacement parts.
You're right about the lack of replacement parts for the MT-100. But we do have replacement grips for your handpiece. It's called the MT-100 Lead-Free Soft Grips PN 1119-0177-P2 ($41.47 pair) and they only come in "lead-free green" color as we can no supply the original blue colored grip.
We are still working on an ADS200-compatible thermal tweezer that will be introduced at late January's IPC Apex Show in San Diego.
I'll pass your comments on to the PACE team.
Thanks,
Aaron
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Is it me or does this forum and specifically this topic generate bad/broken HTML code for URLs? The URL always seems broken when I receive an email with a reply. I'm thinking special characters are messing up the HTML code?
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I think you can go back and edit the URL right? BTW, here's one hi-rez pic that shows the big-tip catch issue.
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I looks like they are still not available. Any update?
You having memory issues?
How are the tweezers coming along? The blue rubber on the ones I use are now shot. The rubber has started to fall apart and it's very sticky. I looked on PACE's site along with Jensen Tools to get a new set and it seems that no parts are available for the tweezers beyond the tips. At $200, I would expect to be able to maintain them. Hope when/if you produce tweezers for the new station, you keep that same size and feel plus offer replacement parts.
You're right about the lack of replacement parts for the MT-100. But we do have replacement grips for your handpiece. It's called the MT-100 Lead-Free Soft Grips PN 1119-0177-P2 ($41.47 pair) and they only come in "lead-free green" color as we can no supply the original blue colored grip.
We are still working on an ADS200-compatible thermal tweezer that will be introduced at late January's IPC Apex Show in San Diego.
I'll pass your comments on to the PACE team.
Thanks,
Aaron
I was just looking for a date when I could actually buy them.
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I think you can go back and edit the URL right?
Every time I receive an email notification about this thread, it's a bad link. I have to cut and paste the link. It's rather difficult to do with a phone. I think the forum software is generating bad HTML code.
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I was just looking for a date when I could actually buy them.
IPC Apex is at the end of January so will probably be announced then.
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I was just looking for a date when I could actually buy them.
IPC Apex is at the end of January so will probably be announced then.
I would be in absolute paradise.. anyone wanna buy me a ticket from Toronto to San Diego? :-//
http://www.ipcapexexpo.org/files/IPC-APEX-EXPO-2019-Conference-Brochure.pdf (http://www.ipcapexexpo.org/files/IPC-APEX-EXPO-2019-Conference-Brochure.pdf)
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Yes,yes, please go ahead and do it and share with us how it goes, and do not forget about plating the tips your fun project will be worthless without.
::) :clap:
Man you need to be less of a dick. In fact, Unisolder shows that it can be done by hobbyists.
Leverage the difficult-for-hobbyists hardware (tip fabrication, hand piece) part built by others, and exploit cheap manufacturing of PCBs + shift burden to software which is quick to iterate.
There's a reason most American manufacturers died off, they couldn't decouple their slow-moving processes from processes that needed to move faster. I hope Pace can keep up and isn't kept alive by "buy American" diehards like me.
Sorry to disappoint you but , from engineering standpoint, Unisolder is horrible engineering. It is horribly overspecified on BOM, left in beta stage of development, and is exactly what you call it: something being done by hobbyist, who will do it for fun doing it, and not because it will provide excellent service and be economical. And you can tweak it and experiment with it and have fun.
There is nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong, but if you buy soldering station as a tool, ADS200 is highly professional tool for a fantastic price.
I solder for 40 years, and I can tell you that I never said " oh my, I wouldn't care if my soldering iron has enough power to melt this connector, if only I had wanky 8" touch screen that will show animations and fancy graphs..." I couldn't care less. If soldering iron had good regulation, had good tips and had enough power for the job, you would pretty much never look at the screen.
Frankly, to me it is refreshing that Pace keeps making top quality "old school" equipment, instead of new trend that behaves like pro tools should be like digital toys for gaming... More design that substance..
I'm waiting for a new thermal tweezers for ADS200 to be released, and will then buy ADS200 + tweezers. I think nothing else on market has so good price/performance.
:-DD Maybe in those 40 years of soldering you shoulda learned not to put words in people's mouths
Nobody's asking for a 8" ipad screen, but what I want is something that can even compete with a Weller's $99 1010na's cheap LCD screen. Or ideally something like Metcal's CV500's cheap 2.8" screen.
Because, unlike what you've learned, there's a wealth of information and features that help reproducible, reliable soldering: production lockout, preset temp/heat combos, sequenced temp changes, real-time graphs of temp/heat...and metcal can even diagnose solder connection quality. Pro's solder smarter.
Of course, this wouldn't be eevblog if some grognard didn't bitch about having to do things uphill both ways in the snow and liking it
Also waiting on the tweezers, and maybe a new Sodr-Xtractor/hot air pencil.
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First, all the best in a New Year..
Not putting words in your mouth, wasn't my intention, just illustrating the point...
LOL grognard... haven't heard that one in years...
You cannot be farther from truth... I embrace smarter and better without hint of luddism...
It's just that lately lots of new stuff is not better, just more technicolor...
Soldering iron can have advanced soldering profile without touch screen.
Soldering profiles are exactly something i would pay to get, because it is important sometimes. Some of the soldering stations with very low thermal mass are actually heating some components too fast.
Presets are great if you mix soldering targets and technologies. Lockout is also great but is used exactly where you don't want grunts changing parameters when you turn your back.
Real time graphs look cool but not really necessary, i can see how solder melts... Metcal solder quality diagnosys is a non-feature.. It's a timer...
I just want soldering iron to work well. If you are busy doing your work, you don't look at soldering iron's screen... You look at the stuff you are working on..
I agree that they could have put more of screen, but in the end not a problem.
I don't mind graphic screen if that's not only feature... I don't want style over substance.. And not prepared to pay more for colour screen on equally performing soldering station.
Cheers,
Sinisa
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I am pulling the trigger on a ADS200 with Instant SetBack and wondered if anyone can help me on this.
I plan to get 5-6 tips and wondered if anyone having one for a while can help with the selection of tips to buy.
I was a tech for 30 years but now will be using this as a hobbyist. We just had the Weller WES51 that I used.
Most of the time I will be building kits with thru hole but will also do some that also have SMD LED RGB chips and other SMD IC components.
It will be used for soldering and also desoldering with solder wick.
One of the tips would be a 1/4 or 5/16 chisel but just do not know what the other 4-5 tips should be to cover 95% of the solder jobs I might get into.
Any help on size, type and standard or ultra performance for each of the 5-6 tips would be greatly appreciated.
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Use a bent conical for SMD LEDs (1131-0003), and get a hoof/MiniWave tip (1131-0032), and a knife tip (1131-0037) for other SMD tasks.
For thru-hole, chisel tips work best. I see there is a 30° angled chisel tip (1131-0051) which looks better ergonomically.
The ultra-performance tips have a larger thermal reservoir, so they will take a bit longer to heat up. If you don't like waiting, the standard series tips would be faster in sporadic use. They are also more slender which is a factor in reworking heavily built-up PCBAs.
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Use a bent conical for SMD LEDs (1131-0003), and get a hoof/MiniWave tip (1131-0032), and a knife tip (1131-0037) for other SMD tasks.
For thru-hole, chisel tips work best. I see there is a 30° angled chisel tip (1131-0051) which looks better ergonomically.
The ultra-performance tips have a larger thermal reservoir, so they will take a bit longer to heat up. If you don't like waiting, the standard series tips would be faster in sporadic use. They are also more slender which is a factor in reworking heavily built-up PCBAs.
Thanks helius
What other chisel tip 1/16" ,3/32' ect. would you recommend for the 6th tip? Any other changes for the list below? I just wanted a well rounded set to start with that have worked well with members that have used the ADS200. I plan to order on Monday so all the help is greatly appreciated.
1131-0003 1/64" bent conical
1131-0032 3mm hoof/MiniWave
1131-0037 1/4" knife
1131-0051 1/8" 30° angled chisel
1131-0057 5/16" chisel or 1131-0055 1/4" ?
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I wonder how long before Chinese clones of tips and parts for the ADS200 start appearing on Banggood?
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Here is my station and list of tips before ordering tomorrow. Does anyone see any tips that should be changed to a different type or deleted before ordering?
8007-0579 ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand
1131-0003-P1 1/64" bent conical
1131-0032-P1 3mm hoof/MiniWave
1131-0019-P1 1/16" 30° angled chisel
1131-0051-P1 1/8" 30° angled chisel
1131-0037-P1 1/4" knife
1131-0055 -P1 1/4" chisel
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Here is my station and list of tips before ordering tomorrow. Does anyone see any tips that should be changed to a different type or deleted before ordering?
8007-0579 ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand
1131-0003-P1 1/64" bent conical
1131-0032-P1 3mm hoof/MiniWave
1131-0019-P1 1/16" 30° angled chisel
1131-0051-P1 1/8" 30° angled chisel
1131-0037-P1 1/4" knife
1131-0055 -P1 1/4" chisel
I use a 3/32" chisel a lot for through hole. I also often wish I had a 3/64" chisel tip but I have a Weller and they don't make one.
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Thanks darik
I appreciate your help.
For budget reasons I need to keep it to a max of 6 tips for now so trying to come up with a balanced set. I just finished a Nixie clock using a Pro'sKit SS-989E that worked OK but wanted something better. Since a few members have had experience using this station I thought it would be best to get their input to come up with a well rounded set limited to 6 tips for now.
Any other help with the final selection I need would be great.
(https://flic.kr/p/RVa8FG)
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You sure you want to use all Ultra Series tips?
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You sure you want to use all Ultra Series tips?
That's a really good point. The ultra tips are bulky, I don't think I would want them for anything smaller than 1/8". I don't think they'd be helpful for 99% of the work you'd be doing with smaller tips.
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No I am flexible. But so far it seems that those that have the ADS200 seem to prefer them for the slight up charge.
Since I never used this station I wanted the expertise of those have and come up with the most used bits that can do double duty in a pinch for my application. It would be far better than using a tip that does not work well and getting a reply " I would of told you so if you asked"
I know everyone has their own style but for those with experience with this station should be able to help me with the 6 tips that will give me the best bang for the buck ,even if initially they cost a little more. This is strictly a hobby now so no production work.
I have a project coming up in a few days so I need to get this ordered in the next couple days.
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If you plan to get it from TEquipment, you may want to give them a buzz first, because it appears they're out of the station.
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Compare the Ultra 1/16" tip with the standard 1/16" tip... look how much bigger it is...
It's a reasonably powerful iron, I personally don't think I'd like the extra thermal mass on small tips nearly as much as I'd like the smaller diameter to get in to tight places.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1131-0019-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1131-0019-P1/Tips/)
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0019-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0019-P1/Tips/)
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Oh and I think there's still an eevblog discount for TEquipment. Maybe someone can supply you with the code.
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If you plan to get it from TEquipment, you may want to give them a buzz first, because it appears they're out of the station.
Yes I plan to get it from TEquipment. I just want to get all my ducks in a row before ordering. That way I will not have to pay shipping and hopefully get the 6% EEV blog discount. Does anyone have the code?
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Hopefully, Cliff and Shock can also chime in here.
Here is the list so feel free to make the changes that you think will work out better. Thanks for all the help so far.
8007-0579 ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand
1131-0003-P1 1/64" bent conical
1131-0032-P1 3mm hoof/MiniWave
1131-0019-P1 1/16" 30° angled chisel
1131-0051-P1 1/8" 30° angled chisel
1131-0037-P1 1/4" knife
1131-0055 -P1 1/4" chisel
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Maybe $3.39 for a pack of o-rings 1213-0090-P5 wouldn't hurt.. Look for the sponges too.
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Thanks Cliff
Since you have used the station what is your take on the tips and also between the Ultra and standard? What would you change in the list in the above post? Attached is a list of all the tips in case you did not have it.
Do you have the sponge part number?
Thanks for replying.
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I do very little smd or light soldering so I can't comment on subtle differences, yet.. I just know it's built to outlast me!
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I do very little smd or light soldering so I can't comment on subtle differences, yet.. I just know it's built to outlast me!
In your photo of the tips, it looks like you have 1/8" chisel tips in both Standard and Ultra Series? Have you compared the two?
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I do very little smd or light soldering so I can't comment on subtle differences, yet.. I just know it's built to outlast me!
In your photo of the tips, it looks like you have 1/8" chisel tips in both Standard and Ultra Series? Have you compared the two?
No, I haven't used the first two yet, the 3rd was just put into service because I worked the 4th to death (as worn plating shows after desoldering ~30,000 parts). To really test, I'd want to solder 1/2 a project PCB with one, and 1/2 with the other.
One day I want to stuff-in a tiny PSU and Arduino driving a piezo for optional audio tones. It would indicate instantaneous tip-on power via R/C tc averaging to the ADC (this would help evaluate performance and tip heat transfer, while still allowing operator to focus on work). Of course, it'll need 2 panel button's to change sensitivity level's, tone's, or turn it off..
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I'm interested in which tips work best for through hole and point-to-point wiring, terminal strips, tube sockets etc. Wondering if the larger mass makes a noticeable difference?
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My standard selection and what I use the most. 1/32" 30° Chisel (0.80mm), 1/16" 30° Chisel (1.59mm), 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm). Add a larger chisel if required.
Then a fine pointy tip for small smd. The blade (aka knife) and bent (aka hook) for rework and tricky angles, touch ups, wiping. A large chisel for soldered heatsinks etc. Lastly miniwave (aka hoof) tips for drag soldering. That would make a good set for me and should give anyone plenty to try out, learn using and improve their technique.
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I am thinking of these as shown in the attachment. They are the standard tips but for a hobbyist building both through hole and some smd work mostly from kits seemed like a good selection.
Shock, looking over what I am getting would I need a knife or does this look like I will be covering all my bases?
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Shock, looking over what I am getting would I need a knife or does this look like I will be covering all my bases?
They are quite useful for drag soldering, wiping solder bridges and components away with the edge and you can also use the point of the tip to solder. Probably the most flexible tip but when you have chisels and doing through hole not the most used. It's worth the money to learn to use, so if you have the budget pick one up, otherwise you can work around it.
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I did not have luck with a knife tip (on JBC, but it looks similar to Pace one) trying to solder SMT ICs, basically it carried too much of a solder mass on it, but maybe i did not try hard enough.
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You sure you want to use all Ultra Series tips?
That's a really good point. The ultra tips are bulky, I don't think I would want them for anything smaller than 1/8". I don't think they'd be helpful for 99% of the work you'd be doing with smaller tips.
You may want consider better plating on the ultra tips, Pace said it is more robust on the ultra tips, i guess that may mean longer tip life all other conditions being same.
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Bud
I talked to a few people including a Rep. from for Pace. For my application they all thought the standard tips would be the best choice for me.
I think I will stick to what I have listed for now and see how it goes. I also added the O-rings and an extra brass wool insert.
It ended up around $310 with the EVV Blog discount. It was a little more than I wanted to spend but I should be set for most of the projects I need to tackle.
Thanks everyone for helping me out on this. I sure do appreciate it.
Ed
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It ended up around $310 with the EVV Blog discount. It was a little more than I wanted to spend but I should be set for most of the projects I need to tackle.
Thanks everyone for helping me out on this. I sure do appreciate it.
Excellent, considering its a tool you will spend countless hours on its a very low cost of ownership for what you end up with.
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Thanks Shock.
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Hey =) i just fixed my 10+ year old espresso machine and.... tada ! Silicone o-rings in bulk.
The pace o-ring is about 8.1x4.5mm and these replacements for espresso ptfe tube is 8x4 (2) mm.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jura-Seal-100-Piece-for-Teflon-hoses-O-Ring-4-0-x-2-0-mm-VMQ/382523629210?hash=item59102f5e9a:g:r0kAAOSwaWhZyEFU (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jura-Seal-100-Piece-for-Teflon-hoses-O-Ring-4-0-x-2-0-mm-VMQ/382523629210?hash=item59102f5e9a:g:r0kAAOSwaWhZyEFU)
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Hey =) i just fixed my 10+ year old espresso machine and.... tada ! Silicone o-rings in bulk.
The pace o-ring is about 8.1x4.5mm and these replacements for espresso ptfe tube is 8x4 (2) mm.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jura-Seal-100-Piece-for-Teflon-hoses-O-Ring-4-0-x-2-0-mm-VMQ/382523629210?hash=item59102f5e9a:g:r0kAAOSwaWhZyEFU (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jura-Seal-100-Piece-for-Teflon-hoses-O-Ring-4-0-x-2-0-mm-VMQ/382523629210?hash=item59102f5e9a:g:r0kAAOSwaWhZyEFU)
Looks like a bowl of SpaghettiOs! But who needs 100 of them? They probably get old. Not sure how critical the size is either.
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You go ahead and buy 5pcs for the same price as I get 100 pcs. Let me worry about them 90+ i have left getting old :-+
Hint: They where getting old after 10 years or so at about 100C in an espresso machine...that made about 10450 cups before failing.
About size:.... Well the original is ID 4.5mm and my alternative is ID 4mm... Considering that the function of the o-ring is to center the tip and hold it in place...Well..hmm.. :horse:
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I'm still working on the original O-ring with 5 on-hand and I'd rather use the specified part. I suspect the friction it creates plays a part in keeping piping-hot tips from dangerously dropping out. Definitely not a place to penny-pinch..
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First, all the best in a New Year..
Not putting words in your mouth, wasn't my intention, just illustrating the point...
LOL grognard... haven't heard that one in years...
You cannot be farther from truth... I embrace smarter and better without hint of luddism...
It's just that lately lots of new stuff is not better, just more technicolor...
Soldering iron can have advanced soldering profile without touch screen.
Soldering profiles are exactly something i would pay to get, because it is important sometimes. Some of the soldering stations with very low thermal mass are actually heating some components too fast.
Presets are great if you mix soldering targets and technologies. Lockout is also great but is used exactly where you don't want grunts changing parameters when you turn your back.
Real time graphs look cool but not really necessary, i can see how solder melts... Metcal solder quality diagnosys is a non-feature.. It's a timer...
I just want soldering iron to work well. If you are busy doing your work, you don't look at soldering iron's screen... You look at the stuff you are working on..
I agree that they could have put more of screen, but in the end not a problem.
I don't mind graphic screen if that's not only feature... I don't want style over substance.. And not prepared to pay more for colour screen on equally performing soldering station.
Cheers,
Sinisa
> I don't want style over substance
Of course...but that cannot be an enemy to progress. It is not like a touchscreen is *expensive* these days. And I don't care for one either but an m5stack is $25 and has Wifi, Bt + buttons and a battery AND a case! 1/10th the cost of a glorified heater i.e. soldering iron!
>Real time graphs look cool but not really necessary, i can see how solder melts... Metcal solder quality diagnosys is a non-feature.. It's a timer...
It's about hard data not about what it looks like. IIRC Metcal's quality diagnosis is better than just a timer but I may be wrong here.
Software is exceedingly cheap to iterate on. Hardware is not. Very hard to add or remove a button after the fact.
Got my ADS200. It is a tank. We'll see what mods I can do!
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Of course...but that cannot be an enemy to progress. It is not like a touchscreen is *expensive* these days. And I don't care for one either but an m5stack is $25 and has Wifi, Bt + buttons and a battery AND a case! 1/10th the cost of a glorified heater i.e. soldering iron!
>Real time graphs look cool but not really necessary, i can see how solder melts... Metcal solder quality diagnosys is a non-feature.. It's a timer...
It's about hard data not about what it looks like. IIRC Metcal's quality diagnosis is better than just a timer but I may be wrong here.
Software is exceedingly cheap to iterate on. Hardware is not. Very hard to add or remove a button after the fact.
Got my ADS200. It is a tank. We'll see what mods I can do!
I agree with all. I'm all for progress.
Except Metcal diagnosys. It is a counter that measures expended energy. It can measure if you spend correct amount of energy for a solder joint (a standard one). It cannot see how it looks.
Solder inspection is either optical or X-ray. Both are visual, or computerized visual. Also , if size of soldering joint is smaller or larger.... I see how can it be useful to total beginner, but very quickly it is not very useful.
Congrats on new station, and I wish you good luck with mods, I hope you enjoy working on it and to be successful to make something you like.
All the best.
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I fully expect to see some aftermarket mods for the ADS200. Even a drop-in replacement PCB and front panel. Maybe after the station becomes more popular. Not sure how long it took for Hakko T12. But it's been out for quite some time.
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Well 5 tips,brass wool and the "o" rings arrived today. I checked on the ADS 200 and the last two tips and was told they will ship around Jan. 24th. It is a little longer than I expected but I can deal with it. Now just looking for a used AmScope 7X-45X with a .5 Barlow lens and ring LED light.
If anyone in the US has leads let me know.
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I fully expect to see some aftermarket mods for the ADS200. Even a drop-in replacement PCB and front panel. Maybe after the station becomes more popular. Not sure how long it took for Hakko T12. But it's been out for quite some time.
I think there’s essentially zero market for drop-in replacement PCBs. In the Hakko world, they exist only because clone makers decided to sell individual parts, and I’d be surprised if many of those boards end up being used in genuine Hakko stations.
Besides, a huge amount of the value of a name-brand station is in the control loops — they’ll have spent a lot of time optimizing them, using decades of accumulated expertise. I don’t see why you’d give that up.
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While watching a "How It's Made" video of McIntosh Labs, I spotted a Pace TD-100 hand-piece around 3:35
https://youtu.be/2HgS6gvokEI
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Dave owns a Pace ST25 and a Pace Fume Exhauster as well which you can see in his earlier videos (8:30).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_PbjbRaO2E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_PbjbRaO2E)
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I didn't see the ADS200 in any of his latest video's or the time-laps move.. Perhaps it's going to be slaving in the new assembly office.. (left office by the windows) while the fancy JBC will continue all pretty on the video bench.
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I use this station, from Farnell UK the better tips only cost about 50p (50cents) more than the others.
I was looking for a tweezer handpiece because I'm doing repair work, STILL none available at the moment but Pace had the following to say about it. I don't really want a mix of stations and bits so I'll use some cheep ones and keep waiting
Good Morning.
Thank you for your recent enquiry via the PACE Worldwide Website.
Currently, there is no Tweezer handpiece available for the ADS 200 but I can tell you that one will be introduced later this year. In the meantime, the MT-100 and TT-65 handpieces are available and can be used in conjunction with the ST 50 Power Source.
I hope that this information helps, should you require any additional details please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Doug Winship
PACE Europe Limited
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I use this station, from Farnell UK the better tips only cost about 50p (50cents) more than the others.
I was looking for a tweezer handpiece because I'm doing repair work, STILL none available at the moment but Pace had the following to say about it. I don't really want a mix of stations and bits so I'll use some cheep ones and keep waiting
Good Morning.
Thank you for your recent enquiry via the PACE Worldwide Website.
Currently, there is no Tweezer handpiece available for the ADS 200 but I can tell you that one will be introduced later this year. In the meantime, the MT-100 and TT-65 handpieces are available and can be used in conjunction with the ST 50 Power Source.
I hope that this information helps, should you require any additional details please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Doug Winship
PACE Europe Limited
We are in the process of creating a new AccuDrive powered (meaning ADS200-compatible) Thermal Tweezer that is vastly improved over the current MT-100 MiniTweez. It will be called the MT-200 and likely be available in late-March/early April. The MT-200 handpiece is going into production by next month as we are set to receive the first long-leadtime machined parts next week. Thus we should have working pre-production models for beta test. The biggest hold-up is on the MT-200 Tip & Tool Stand, the tooling of which is a long and tedious process. The Tool Stand won't be available until at least March, and that's if everything is exactly right - if the tooling needs further tweaking, there could be delays. I know it's a long wait, but I think you'll be impressed with the results!
Aaron
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...Currently, there is no Tweezer handpiece available for the ADS 200
Hi Aaron, Re: MT-200
Any chance of getting some unlisted YouTube footage next week from IPC APEX?
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...Currently, there is no Tweezer handpiece available for the ADS 200
Hi Aaron, Re: MT-200
Any chance of getting some unlisted YouTube footage next week from IPC APEX?
Hi Cliff,
If the parts get into PACE on Monday or Tuesday, they'll assemble one and send it to the show, but we're only showing it to select distributors. So probably not!
In any case, if any of you are coming to IPC Apex at the San Diego Convention Center 29-31 Jan , feel free to stop by PACE's booth at #2809. I'll be there, thinning gray hair and all! Note that practically every major soldering iron manufacturer exhibits here including Hakko, JBC, Weller, Quick, etc ...
Aaron
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Thanks for the update. Interesting that you are changing your holder design. We use these where I work and I think we had destroyed every set of the rubber handles due to the holder's design. I am happy to hear you may possibly be addressing this.
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The green are the newer set, the blue are mostly what we have. Most of us now will just lay them on top of the holder rather than lock them in place to avoid further damage.
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Looks like we are not the only ones who saw the handles degrade. I wonder if PACE found problems with the materials and if the green will hold up better, or if it really is the design of the holder that caused them to degrade.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-1124-1004-6010-0140-6993-Desoldering-Tweezer-Soldering-Iron/263996520098?epid=2295972161&hash=item3d776b36a2:g:CmYAAOSwlxxbyQg8:rk:4:pf:1&frcectupt=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-1124-1004-6010-0140-6993-Desoldering-Tweezer-Soldering-Iron/263996520098?epid=2295972161&hash=item3d776b36a2:g:CmYAAOSwlxxbyQg8:rk:4:pf:1&frcectupt=true)
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Looks like we are not the only ones who saw the handles degrade. I wonder if PACE found problems with the materials and if the green will hold up better, or if it really is the design of the holder that caused them to degrade.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-1124-1004-6010-0140-6993-Desoldering-Tweezer-Soldering-Iron/263996520098?epid=2295972161&hash=item3d776b36a2:g:CmYAAOSwlxxbyQg8:rk:4:pf:1&frcectupt=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-1124-1004-6010-0140-6993-Desoldering-Tweezer-Soldering-Iron/263996520098?epid=2295972161&hash=item3d776b36a2:g:CmYAAOSwlxxbyQg8:rk:4:pf:1&frcectupt=true)
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your comments. I forwarded your previous images to our engineering team, and they don't believe your degradation is due to the Tool Stand design, although it could contribute. More likely, it is due to high temperatures seen by the front end of the grips, plus breakdown due to chemicals used to clean the pcbs, like alcohol or other flux cleaners. High handle temperatures (especially if the handle temperature rises above 140°F) during extended production use has been an issue in the MT-100 Tweezer - it was never intended to be used continuously for hours at a time. And the handles can get extremely hot ... I've heard reported temperatures of over 180°F when maxed out at highest temp settings! Which is enough to burn fingers! Some companies use the tweezer for hours on end at the highest set temperature, and this is when we usually see degradation of the grips. It is for this reason that we have replacement grips available under MT-100 Soft Grips PN 1119-0165-P2 (Package of 2).
Our new MT-200 has been redesigned to minimize overheating of the handle and will not break down due to excessive grip temperatures. We accomplished this through the use of the very same "Cool Touch" technology we use in the TD-200: the internal portion of the grip is machined from a solid piece of aircraft aluminum (aluminium) which dissipates the heat tremendously (as Trump would say). Thus the grip temperature should never rise above 120°F, no matter what temperature you are set at.
About the Blue vs. Green colored grips: the blue rubber was the original color of the grip, while a green grip was to designate "lead-free" use. In the late 2000's, green was the universal code-color (colour) used by most board manufacturers to symbolize a "lead-free-only" work area, so mats, soldering irons, stations used in a lead-free work area had some touch of green in them. But since lead-free soldering is the norm these days for production houses, it has fallen out of favor. PACE has standardized to green grips for an even more simple reason: the supplier of our blue grips could no longer provide an accurate color-match (dayglo blue looked horrible), so we standardized on green!
About the new Tip & Tool Stand. The holder portion will not be stamped from sheet metal (with resultant sharp edges), it will be a casting with softer, rounded edges and will be significantly more sturdy. In addition, we will incorporate an "Instant SetBack (ISB)" switch into the casting to automatically lower the temperature of the tips to improve tip life.
I was just told that the new MT-200 with Tip & Tool Stand, compatible with the ADS200, should be available in April or May.
Best,
Aaron
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Our new MT-200 has been redesigned to minimize overheating of the handle and will not break down due to excessive grip temperatures. We accomplished this through the use of the very same "Cool Touch" technology we use in the TD-200
That is indeed very cool, I was hoping Pace would go that route. I think the silicon style grip on the aluminum TD200 and TD100a is a good compromise, you want some comfort and grip but not a dirt collecting sponge or something that oils will easily break down.
Perhaps we will see an MT100a for Intelliheat stations? I'm thinking you will if the tip geometry doesn't change.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=501824;image)
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Thanks for the info. I am happy to hear that this problem is solved. Funny to see you posting about the heat. My old tweezers can get very hot and every time I use the newer ones, I think how nice these are compared with mine.
Yes, we use these a fair amount and have been using them for 10+ years. They are a great tool IMO outside of the grips. I did look into new grips after your first post but no one seemed to have them in stock.
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Aaron,
We purchase tips for the Intelliheat by bulk. Around 20 - 50 tips at a time. It appears PACE put's the tips for the irons through a burn-in cycle. It seems like the ones for the tweezers are not. I am curious if the tips have a high infant mortality or is there some other reason they are cycled? I mentioned with my older Sensatemp, you require a conditioning cycle which is a feature built into my old controller. Are the Intelliheat tips burned in for this reason? We notice that every time we order tips that they take several weeks to deliver. Which again makes me wonder if you are having problems producing them? Are the tips made outside the USA causing the long lead times?
Will the tips for the ADS200 also have long lead times? Do you still have to burn them in before they are shipped?
Just curious. Thanks again for providing us with the inside details.
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The reason for the burn-in procedure for SensaTemp heaters was described in this post. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1688393/#msg1688393)
As for the tips being tested, there were some early reviews of the ADS-200 that mentioned some tips were D.O.A. I imagine Pace is eager to make sure that any production problems are caught before delivery to customers.
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Aaron,
We purchase tips for the Intelliheat by bulk. Around 20 - 50 tips at a time. It appears PACE put's the tips for the irons through a burn-in cycle. It seems like the ones for the tweezers are not. I am curious if the tips have a high infant mortality or is there some other reason they are cycled? I mentioned with my older Sensatemp, you require a conditioning cycle which is a feature built into my old controller. Are the Intelliheat tips burned in for this reason? We notice that every time we order tips that they take several weeks to deliver. Which again makes me wonder if you are having problems producing them? Are the tips made outside the USA causing the long lead times?
Will the tips for the ADS200 also have long lead times? Do you still have to burn them in before they are shipped?
Just curious. Thanks again for providing us with the inside details.
Joe,
While they look the same as our standard IntelliHeat Tip Cartridges, AccuDrive Tips (ADS200 tips) have an interior heater with a different construction much more difficult to produce than our standard ones. And Helius is correct about the reason we test every tip before it leaves the factory in North Carolina: the last thing we need is another production fiasco like the one that occurred last year! We normally test only 25-40% of IntelliHeat-style cartridges, but 100% of AccuDrive Tips are tested which results in a slight discoloration towards the top of the tip.
Our tips don't have an abnormally high mortality rate, and rarely do our tips stop working due to heater failure. In fact, tip failure is usually caused by normal wear and tear of the plating. In use, the protective iron plating wears through, developing a pit or maybe a crack in the plating. Once there is a pit/crack, the interior copper is exposed and rapidly erodes away, as solder (especially lead-free solder) has a solvent effect on pure copper, dissolving the inner copper until the plating caves in!
How to improve tip life? In general, lead-free alloys have a higher Sn (tin) content which is much more destructive to iron plating, especially at higher temperatures. We estimate that solderers using lead-free alloys will go through tips up to 3 times faster than leaded alloys. Here is a common sense list of things you can do to extend tip life:
- Turn down the heat! Probably the best advice I can give. As stated before, using lead-free soldering along with elevated temperatures is a recipe for shorter tip life.
- Do not apply pressure to the soldering iron: being heavy handed with your iron can cause stress cracks in the iron plating.
- Do not scrub the lead: Any type of abrasion can increase your chances of scratching the plating
- Do NOT use tips as screwdrivers!
- With lead-free solder use Brass Wool Cleaner: Yes, it's slightly abrasive, but lead-free alloys and fluxes may require a bit more to properly clean. With Tin-Lead alloys, use a wet sulfer-free sponge (NO household sponges).
- Apply solder to the joint or lead, not the tip: In other words, use a solder-bridge, as constant application of wire solder to the tip may create a pit.
- Cover working end with solder during idle periods: the solder coating will oxide, rather than the iron plating.
- Turn off iron when not in use: less heat equals less oxidation
- Do NOT use pliers to change tips: Especially PACE tip-heater cartridges - it's a sure way to crush the heater core within the cartridge. Use our Tip Tool or Tip Removal Pad instead.
- Use soldering iron system with “Setback” and/or “Auto-Off” feature: Our Instant SetBack (ISB) Tool Stand automatically “sets-back” temperature to 350F/176C when placed in the Stand.
The burn-in or conditioning cycle for the SensaTemp handpieces (not tips used in SensaTemp handieces) are the result of the construction of SensaTemp heaters. To manufacture SensaTemp heaters, we machine out a brass bobbin, a coated heater wire is wound around the bobbin, then attached to a platinum RTD sensor in the front. It's the coated heater wire which is the cause of the burn-in procedure: when initially heated up, the wire burns off the coating -- you'll notice smoke and an odor after initial heat-up. It's totally normal and the smell/smoke goes away within a short period of time, never to occur again. We recommend burning in the handpiece heaters because there is a very slight chance (probably 1 in 200) of a short in the wire winding if someone turns a brand new heater up to 900F. The vast majority of reported heater shorts occur with our TJ-70 ThermoJet Hot Air Jet Handpiece, probably because that tool is designed to be used at max temperature (900F). In contrast, the IntelliHeat and AccuDrive Tip Heater Cartridges are not burned in, they are tested. They are placed in a test fixture which fully energizes the tip for about 5 seconds, enough time for the tip to reach solder melt temperatures.
Concerning lead times, you can blame your local distributor for that! Our standard lead times to Distributors for all PACE products is 2 weeks after receipt of order. This a hard and fast policy of PACE's. We expect distributors to do the one thing distributors are supposed to do: STOCK OUR PRODUCTS! But many distributors do not. If a distributor takes more than 16 days to ship PACE products or tips, it's very simple: You can bet they are not stocking tips and are only ordering AFTER you have placed your PO! If you order directly from PACE's website, we generally ship within 2-4 days. Yes, we have occasional lead time issues, and if a production problem occurs (like the original defective batch of ADS/AccuDrive tips), then we are at fault for the delay. But we have been pretty steady on lead times since late August, so I'm going to blame the distributors! ;)
Finally, we manufacture all soldering products (including tips) and bench top rework stations in Vass, North Carolina, while higher end BGA Rework Equipment and Fume Extractors are manufactured in Elkridge MD (where I am located). PACE is one of the last major manufacturers of soldering irons made in the USA (Weller: made in Mexico & Germany; Hakko: made in China; Metcal: Made in China).
Whew, I'm going to bed!
Best,
Aaron
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The reason for the burn-in procedure for SensaTemp heaters was described in this post. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1688393/#msg1688393)
As for the tips being tested, there were some early reviews of the ADS-200 that mentioned some tips were D.O.A. I imagine Pace is eager to make sure that any production problems are caught before delivery to customers.
I wasn't questioning the Sensatemp conditioning but was curious about the Intelliheat being burned in at the factory and the reasons for it.
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While they look the same as our standard IntelliHeat Tip Cartridges, AccuDrive Tips (ADS200 tips) have an interior heater with a different construction much more difficult to produce than our standard ones. And Helius is correct about the reason we test every tip before it leaves the factory in North Carolina: the last thing we need is another production fiasco like the one that occurred last year! We normally test only 25-40% of IntelliHeat-style cartridges, but 100% of AccuDrive Tips are tested which results in a slight discoloration towards the top of the tip.
Our tips don't have an abnormally high mortality rate, and rarely do our tips stop working due to heater failure. In fact, tip failure is usually caused by normal wear and tear of the plating. In use, the protective iron plating wears through, developing a pit or maybe a crack in the plating. Once there is a pit/crack, the interior copper is exposed and rapidly erodes away, as solder (especially lead-free solder) has a solvent effect on pure copper, dissolving the inner copper until the plating caves in!
Concerning lead times, you can blame your local distributor for that! Our standard lead times to Distributors for all PACE products is 2 weeks after receipt of order. This a hard and fast policy of PACE's. We expect distributors to do the one thing distributors are supposed to do: STOCK OUR PRODUCTS! But many distributors do not. If a distributor takes more than 16 days to ship PACE products or tips, it's very simple: You can bet they are not stocking tips and are only ordering AFTER you have placed your PO! If you order directly from PACE's website, we generally ship within 2-4 days. Yes, we have occasional lead time issues, and if a production problem occurs (like the original defective batch of ADS/AccuDrive tips), then we are at fault for the delay. But we have been pretty steady on lead times since late August, so I'm going to blame the distributors! ;)
....
Finally, we manufacture all soldering products (including tips) and bench top rework stations in Vass, North Carolina, while higher end BGA Rework Equipment and Fume Extractors are manufactured in Elkridge MD (where I am located). PACE is one of the last major manufacturers of soldering irons made in the USA (Weller: made in Mexico & Germany; Hakko: made in China; Metcal: Made in China).
The 25 - 40% of Intelliheat cartridges being tested makes a lot of sense. I looked at our stock and it appears there were some (for the irons) that had not been heated. When I look at the discoloration of the cartridges that were tested, it varies a fair amount. I suspect its a manual operation. I attached a couple of pictures of one of the worse. Most will not be this dark.
I wouldn't have guessed that the AccuDrive cartridges were much more difficult to produce than the Intelliheat and require 100% testing. To reduce the cost, are you working on a better cartridge design for the AccuDrive?
This is good to know about the distributors being the problem. They typically quote us lead times of a couple of weeks but we rarely see parts within a month. I wasn't aware that we could purchase parts direct but will get you setup as a supplier to take care of it.
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The 25 - 40% of Intelliheat cartridges being tested makes a lot of sense. I looked at our stock and it appears there were some (for the irons) that had not been heated. When I look at the discoloration of the cartridges that were tested, it varies a fair amount. I suspect its a manual operation. I attached a couple of pictures of one of the worse. Most will not be this dark.
I wouldn't have guessed that the AccuDrive cartridges were much more difficult to produce than the Intelliheat and require 100% testing. To reduce the cost, are you working on a better cartridge design for the AccuDrive?
This is good to know about the distributors being the problem. They typically quote us lead times of a couple of weeks but we rarely see parts within a month. I wasn't aware that we could purchase parts direct but will get you setup as a supplier to take care of it.
All Tip Heater Cartridge production including testing are manual operations and very labor intensive. I doubt it would make sense to automate the process unless we were selling millions & millions of tips per year. The easiest alternative would be to move production to China or Mexico, but then we lose valuable, long time employees and quality control, so it's not something that will ever be put on the table. Not by current PACE management.
When we experienced the AccuDrive production issues last year, the tip design was modified significantly to make them easier to produce and to improve reliability. While AccuDrive tips go through a similar production process as the IntelliHeat tips, the heater windings are tricky (more wattage requires more winds at more precise intervals) and AccuDrive heaters have 2 sensors rather than 1 sensor that has to fit in the same metal shroud using the same iron plated copper tip end. Like I said, trickier. Our production people seem to be totally in the groove now!
We have some really excellent distributors, but I would shop around to see who actually stocks PACE product. Usually the Hakko, Metcal or Weller tips are given stocking priority because of their historical focus on mass market soldering stations, as opposed to PACE's focus on production-oriented rework & repair products. But the trend in distribution seems to be to minimize inventory. Many of our distributors use complicated algorithms built into their ERP systems that minimize excess stock, and sometimes this results in wild swings in their buying patterns. One month they may go without buying any tips, then the next month we get an order for $30K. So one month they have nothing on the shelf, then the next month they have too much. And the cycle repeats. The result is a noticeable lag in delivery to customers during certain periods of time. If a distributor has a particular tip in stock, they typically ship within 2 days. If they are shipping any later than that, then they don't have the product on the shelf.
In defense of distributors, they cannot possibly stock 100% of the product lines they carry. They'd be out of business within months. Most distributors take an 80/20 rule approach to shelf stock, so only the most popular items that sell quickly are stocked. Specialty tips used by a few customers may take longer as they only purchase the tip when you order.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.
Aaron
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Aaron,
I noticed that TEquipment seems to have a dozen or so ADS200 stations at a time, and several of each tip. And when they run out, it's a few weeks before they get more. Meanwhile, they have over 100 of the similarly priced Hakko station. I was wondering if it's selling slowly because it's fairly new, or so popular that Pace can't keep up with production? Thus have to ration the product between distributors.
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joeqsmith,
I'm curious about that tip. And the type of soldering you do, where you need for a high thermal mass conical tip?
Thx
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I just received my ADS200 with Setback on Tuesday. It took a month from ordering to receiving the unit. It is version 1-4. I got it from TEquipment at a time when it was not in stock, but they had an order in with Pace a week earlier.
I got it at great price so did not mind the wait. The setback stand works perfectly.
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I noticed that TEquipment seems to have a dozen or so ADS200 stations at a time, and several of each tip. And when they run out, it's a few weeks before they get more. Meanwhile, they have over 100 of the similarly priced Hakko station. I was wondering if it's selling slowly because it's fairly new, or so popular that Pace can't keep up with production? Thus have to ration the product between distributors.
I spoke to Evan from Tequipment about this the other day. Their stock level has looked terrible for months seemed like they weren't ordering in enough tips and stations. I'm sure they would have sold more overall, not everyone likes to wait for a backorder or buy a station without the tips. Perhaps their ordering system doesn't forecast well when the product is a new listing.
There was a time when people didn't like Hakko all that much, but since then they have had time to gain market penetration with little competition (value wise) in the USA. The FX-951 at ~$200 price point was an okay station, I never thought it was a particularly good design (or value with Australia tax). But the Pace ADS200 at ~$200 is a great station, over time I'm sure the word will get out more.
I noticed people are starting to buy on Amazon as well.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71GcC4hZ6RL.jpg)
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I just received my ADS200 with Setback on Tuesday. It took a month from ordering to receiving the unit. It is version 1-4. I got it from TEquipment at a time when it was not in stock, but they had an order in with Pace a week earlier.
I got it at great price so did not mind the wait. The setback stand works perfectly.
Good to know you finally got yours, congrats. They should be all version 1.4 by now but it's a simple process to change the firmware over anyway.
In case you weren't aware use the tip tool to swap tips, the silicon pad is just there to confuse people. It might make a good place to drop parts on when the tweezers come out.
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....
Hope this clarifies things a bit.
Aaron
Yes sir, it has. Thank you again for taking the time to write. This has been very helpful.
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Good to know you finally got yours, congrats. They should be all version 1.4 by now but it's a simple process to change the firmware over anyway.
In case you weren't aware use the tip tool to swap tips, the silicon pad is just there to confuse people. It might make a good place to drop parts on when the tweezers come out.
Yeah I was looking at that big square pad with the arrow shape on one side, wondering what it was for. I just use the little "tweezers" and drop the hot one in one of the spare slots on the docking/stand part ... other than your future plan, what could it be for?
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I spoke to Evan from Tequipment about this the other day. Their stock level has looked terrible for months seemed like they weren't ordering in enough tips and stations. I'm sure they would have sold more overall, not everyone likes to wait for a backorder or buy a station without the tips. Perhaps their ordering system doesn't forecast well when the product is a new listing.
I noticed people are starting to buy on Amazon as well.
Hey Shock, what's the model of your work pad thingy there? I assume esd safe. Looks very nice. I just use an IKEA mat now. :-//
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Yeah I was looking at that big square pad with the arrow shape on one side, wondering what it was for. I just use the little "tweezers" and drop the hot one in one of the spare slots on the docking/stand part ... other than your future plan, what could it be for?
It is for swapping tips, or I guess putting tips down if you don't want to put them into into the rack. Some other brands use similar but once you can use the tweezers the pads make things clumsy. Makes a good coffee mat also.
Hey Shock, what's the model of your work pad thingy there? I assume esd safe. Looks very nice. I just use an IKEA mat now. :-//
That is not mine, it's an image from Amazon. Those things are sold from various China sellers, not sure if there is any official version. Search for PCB REPAIR PAD or similar on Ebay, or start a new thread in the "Other Equipment & Products" forum, someone might be able to hook you up with a good one that doesn't smell rubbery etc.
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Those pads are made of silicone rubber for heat resistance. They are not ESD mats: there is only one rubber layer, not a dissipative over conductive sandwich like a real ESD pad. I couldn't tell you if the rubber is static dissipative at all—I do not have the proper tools for that measurement—but it reads as zero conductance when testing with probes.
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Those pads are made of silicone rubber for heat resistance. They are not ESD mats: there is only one rubber layer, not a dissipative over conductive sandwich like a real ESD pad. I couldn't tell you if the rubber is static dissipative at all—I do not have the proper tools for that measurement—but it reads as zero conductance when testing with probes.
Ok only good for corpses then, thanks for checking.
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joeqsmith,
I'm curious about that tip. And the type of soldering you do, where you need for a high thermal mass conical tip?
Thx
I have some 1/64th conical tips at home that make the one shown look like a dull butter knife. In the attached photo I have scraped away some of the mask to attach my parts to the plain and using AWG 30 to make my connections. Under those big 0805s is a leadless IC that my am attaching to. The fine tips like the 357 allow me to get into these tight areas and have enough thermal mass to overcome the thermal mass of the plain.
Maybe check out the following article to get a better idea where the various tips are used.
http://blog.okinternational.com/metcal/5-tips-for-solder-tip-selection (http://blog.okinternational.com/metcal/5-tips-for-solder-tip-selection)
Not too long ago, someone asked about making a home made soldering iron. I ended up jigging something together and used a similar tip. I bit more flat as I wanted to show some general soldering. This iron is running off my bench supply, powered by a PC and using a bench meter to read the tip temps. :-DD Most expensive iron ever, works as you would expect. You can see me strip some parts off an junk UNI-T meter with it.... Oh yea, the heart of the iron and the only thing it has going for it, a PACE tip!
https://youtu.be/Xa2TQ583OIU (https://youtu.be/Xa2TQ583OIU)
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It is for swapping tips, or I guess putting tips down if you don't want to put them into into the rack. Some other brands use similar but once you can use the tweezers the pads make things clumsy. Makes a good coffee mat also.
Coffee mat I can see, the arrow belt part is a mystery. ??? And I guess the little bag of thumb screws is for hooking stuff together haha.
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Joe, you are one very talented man! If recall correctly, you're up the cold arthritic New England area.
Ever thought of visiting warmer places like Elk Ridge? :-+ (er.. I mean to check out the Real Estate?)
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Joe, you are one very talented man! If recall correctly, you're up the cold arthritic New England area.
Ever thought of visiting warmer places like Elk Ridge? :-+ (er.. I mean to check out the Real Estate?)
You like the way I flick those parts off that cheap meter? Normally, I would do this with my heat gun but for a demo it's fine. My tweezers are too clumsy to work on small parts like this. I'm faster with the heat gun. The small PACE tweezers with the self aligning quick change tips are the best.
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Never change Joe, your contributions are noteworthy. Seriously, I'd love to see select cuts from a tour of Pace Inc. one day.. and if any of Pace's engineers subscribe to your channel, I'm sure they'd love to "chew the fat" with someone so resourceful. :-+
Q - Is there any chance one day you might do a video on how (and with what investment) the novice user can use the free or Academic versions of LabView to handle tasks like the one you posted? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/homebrew-soldering-iron/msg2135812/#msg2135812 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/homebrew-soldering-iron/msg2135812/#msg2135812)
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The wine cork makes a good grip. Always Worked well on fishing rods.
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Never change Joe, your contributions are noteworthy. Seriously, I'd love to see select cuts from a tour of Pace Inc. one day.. and if any of Pace's engineers subscribe to your channel, I'm sure they'd love to "chew the fat" with someone so resourceful. :-+
Q - Is there any chance one day you might do a video on how (and with what investment) the novice user can use the free or Academic versions of LabView to handle tasks like the one you posted? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/homebrew-soldering-iron/msg2135812/#msg2135812 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/homebrew-soldering-iron/msg2135812/#msg2135812)
Thanks. I'm sure the engineers at Pace would have a laugh at the home made irons. I thought about going one step further with the project but it seems our friend lost interest in the subject. The plan would have been to start designing something that could actually be used. Maybe some homemade tweezers. :-DD
A few years back when sparkfun was supplying the student version with an arduino for $50, I had a few friends buying it and tossing out the arduino. We tried several tests on the student version and it appeared to basically be the base package but with a watermark. Nothing appeared crippled. At that time I was working on a system that was fairly intensive. I was using Labview to test the hardware. We tried running these tests with the student version and also saw no problems. The base package is very powerful and what I started out with for my hobby. NI made me an offer on that I couldn't refuse and I upgraded to pro. By far, this has been one of the biggest time savers for me. For home I strictly use Labview now to control the PCs.
There are training videos on YT for labview. IMO, the best thing is to just read the getting started manual and work the examples. It will take a day to absorb it but it's a good starting point. They have a forum as well that appears popular. This would be a good place to get help.
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I thought I'd post a picture of my "old" Pace setup, with the observation: I really can't see buying any new Pace equipment, the old stuff lasts too long! :-DD
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A bit off subject. TEquipment doesn't carry the Kester line of solder products. But they have this. Has anyone tried this bargain solder? Has good reviews.
https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481 (https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481)
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A bit off subject. TEquipment doesn't carry the Kester line of solder products. But they have this. Has anyone tried this bargain solder? Has good reviews.
https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481 (https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481)
I wonder why it is that this small family biz has been 'below the radar' since 1988.. maybe it's just getting traction now? Joe is such a resourceful materials guy, it would be nice to get his take. I liked watching all the smelting and drawing processes I saw in the video (but with lead.. there no way I'd ever work in a plant like that..) Factory on G-maps: https://bit.ly/2SOGCJL (https://bit.ly/2SOGCJL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRubdoXEM1Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRubdoXEM1Q)
edit - I'd say you're not far off the subject - maybe Aaron's heard about these guys? On that map, I see 2 furnaces 'out back' as the say in the video and a stock yard with easy forklift access to rail cars (solder tends to be heavy stuff).
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Seems odd that they've only been ISO 9001 certified since 2017. Maybe they recently started making electronic solder? Judging by their distribution, it appears the main focus of the business was the stained glass industry.
They don't actually offer many types of electronic solder compared to the well established brands.
I emailed the sales manager and received what I feel is a pretty basic response.
Who knows? Maybe it's good stuff.
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Are people doing the firmware update on their units? Mine shows 1-2 (which I think is Rev B) and it looks like there is a 1-4 (Rev D). There is a photo someplace that shows the update if performed by swapping out a PLCC, probably microcontroller but I guess it could also be a memory chip. Is this for sale or offered via warranty anywhere? And is there a list of the changes/improvements?
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Are people doing the firmware update on their units? Mine shows 1-2 (which I think is Rev B) and it looks like there is a 1-4 (Rev D). There is a photo someplace that shows the update if performed by swapping out a PLCC, probably microcontroller but I guess it could also be a memory chip. Is this for sale or offered via warranty anywhere? And is there a list of the changes/improvements?
ADS200 Firmware Update Rev 1-4 now available
Finally, I’m getting ready to send out a new “1-4” ADS200 firmware PLCC-44 chip. If you would like to try it out, free of charge, please send me a message with a good shipping address and email. Also mention if you need a Chip Puller to remove the PLCC, as I will provide that too. See the attached ADS200-chip-change.pdf file I have attached below for installation instructions. It's pretty straight forward.
The differences between Rev 1-3 (only sent to a few beta testers) and Rev 1-4 are minimal but the differences between Rev 1-1 or 1-2 are significant. The new firmware takes care of several nagging issues reported in EEVBlog:
- The wacky display screen antics during initial heat-up: by changing some timing code, we were able to curtail the random screen updates that were occurring when you first turn the unit on. Apparently, the unit reacts better if it is not running 100% of wattage when it first turns on. Our engineer also claims the tips heat up faster, although I could not notice any discernible difference myself.
- 5° Display Resolution is now 1°: The display will register in 1° increments rather than 5° increments now. When you set or view temperature, it will actually show the correct temperature e.g. 352°C or 353°C instead of 350 or 355°C. As a result, the display is much more reactive, meaning if you stick it on the sponge, it will drop a few degrees after 1 or 2 seconds. Before the display would just sit there, even though it was accurately reading the proper internal temperature.
- ISB Instant Setback Tool Stand: The ISB can now be programmed to be truly “instant.” While the ADS200 has a default setting of 30 seconds before Setback starts, it can now be set in 1-second increments from “0” (instantly goes into Setback as soon as you place it in the stand) to 240 seconds. Before the minimum setting was 15 seconds.
Shipping to US customers is a breeze, but outside of the US may take more time as we have to gather customs paperwork, etc.
I think you'll like the changes in the ADS200, so message me if you want the new chip sent!
Best,
Aaron
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Thanks. That helped me find a link to the appropriate tech guy. I shall investigate:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-)$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=458980
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Thanks. That helped me find a link to the appropriate tech guy. I shall investigate:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-)$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=458980
EEV generates bad links. Which is why I quoted his entire post instead of linking to the post.
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If you grab the whole URL you get the PDF with the email address of Tony who is the guy that will theoretically be acting on the firmware update requests.
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Oh I get it. I just wish they'd fix that issue. I think special characters are interfering with whatever generates the URL.
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I recently bought the Pace ADS200 with the Instant SetBack tool stand, and I may have discovered a bug in the current firmware (1-4) -- or perhaps the bug is in my cerebral cortex (which is still in beta).
The full instruction manual suggests setting a temp of 350 deg F for Preset 1 (to initiate a "Manual Temperature Setback"), so that the temp can be reduced quickly without having to wait for the setback timer to elapse. So I did this, and left all other settings at their default, including the instant setback temp of 350 deg F which is triggered 30 seconds after placing the handpiece in the stand.
When I pressed the black button to select Preset 1, it correctly triggered the 350 deg temp. However, if I then placed the handpiece in the stand and let the instant setback timer trigger the setback temp after 30 seconds, the temp dropped below 350 deg and kept dropping. It eventually dropped below 200 deg, at which point I pulled the handpiece from the stand and it returned to 350 deg.
It may be that Pace's suggestion to set Preset 1 to 350 deg was intended for stations without the Instant Setback stand. Without the Instant Setback stand, the default setting will trigger the setback temp after 30 minutes of inactivity. But for some reason, manually triggering a setback temp that was the same as the instant setback temp resulted in this strange behavior.
I've returned all settings to default, since waiting 30 seconds for the setback temp to automatically trigger is not an issue. Am I misunderstanding how these settings work?
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...the temp dropped below 350 deg and kept dropping. It eventually dropped below 200 deg.
I had a play tonight and was able to confirm on firmware 1.4 the setback temp needs to be lower than the active preset. I assume it turns off the heating but didn't wait for it to go to room temp. I would say it's unexpected behavior but in a weird way having it in setback with no heating and being able to read the tip temp is kind of useful.
So either set Setback 350F, Preset 1 351F or Setback anywhere between 300-349, Preset 1 350F (if you like more rounded numbers for instance) etc for the "Manual Setback" and it should work fine.
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If anyone is looking to put an order in, both tequipment.net and uk.farnell.com are showing better stock. Though they are about to run out of the standard model again.
https://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0580/soldering-station-with-tool-stand/dp/2893440 (https://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0580/soldering-station-with-tool-stand/dp/2893440)
https://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0581/soldering-station-with-isb-tool/dp/2893441 (https://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0581/soldering-station-with-isb-tool/dp/2893441)
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0578/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0578/Soldering-Stations/)
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/)
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Finally, I am another happy owner of the Pace ADS200 with ISB plus 5 Standard Blue Series Tips to get started.
I ordered it yesterday from Farnell export and I got it today. It took less than 18 hours..best price in Europe with a 15% off voucher + UPS free shipping!
The offer expires on February 22.
First impressions: It looks and feels so good and robust! It's built to last! those who talk about the construction they are damn right! 8)
Thank you everyone for your reviews, comments and knowledge. It helped me a lot in order to decide which soldering station to buy. no regrets!!! :-+
member Shock, I really appreciate your help! some photos as I promised..
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Score! Good job.
Not sure I'm doing it right, but I had to reduce the amount of that gold colored brillo tip cleaner thing by about half to get it in the slot on the stand. It didn't seem like two and it was tricky to evenly divide in half.
In other news, my firmware update 1.2 -> 1.4 arrived but I've been under the weather so no chance to do that yet.
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First impressions: It looks and feels so good and robust! It's built to last! those who talk about the construction they are damn right! 8)
member Shock, I really appreciate your help! some photos as I promised..
No problem at all, nice to see you're all set to go. I've had mine for just over 6 months now, lost track of how many hours and couldn't be happier.
Not sure I'm doing it right, but I had to reduce the amount of that gold colored brillo tip cleaner thing by about half to get it in the slot on the stand. It didn't seem like two and it was tricky to evenly divide in half.
I just squashed mine flat a little and then wedged them in, it doesn't matter though it will work just as well. Pace brass wool (1129-0018-P1) goes for about $3 or so.
Most of the time I prefer my stands to be out of the way as I have several of them. It's easier to clean tips in front of me so I use a cheap generic brass wool holder with the Pace wool (and throw out the Chinese stuff), pays to put tape around them to prevent the base coming off and spilling solder.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=507923;image)
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I have several packets of that brass wool and I know I should use it... but I "grew up" on the damp sponge. Somehow, I need the hiss of the hot tip touching the damp sponge.
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I have several packets of that brass wool and I know I should use it... but I "grew up" on the damp sponge. Somehow, I need the hiss of the hot tip touching the damp sponge.
Same here. I'm a "sponger" and a "flicker" (to get rid of a blob). I also have a Weller WTCPN (or whatever the all-in-one base station model # was in 1983) that I used until last year ... always with the sponging and flicking. Changed a few tips and that's it. Used very little water on the sponge and didn't drown my tip. Still works. Neighbor keeps wanting to borrow a soldering iron so I got myself the Pace and he can now borrow the Weller.
But I'm trying the brass wool thing. The kids are all over it.
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I have several packets of that brass wool and I know I should use it... but I "grew up" on the damp sponge. Somehow, I need the hiss of the hot tip touching the damp sponge.
Same here. I'm a "sponger" and a "flicker" (to get rid of a blob). I also have a Weller WTCPN (or whatever the all-in-one base station model # was in 1983) that I used until last year ... always with the sponging and flicking. Changed a few tips and that's it. Used very little water on the sponge and didn't drown my tip. Still works. Neighbor keeps wanting to borrow a soldering iron so I got myself the Pace and he can now borrow the Weller.
But I'm trying the brass wool thing. The kids are all over it.
They complement each other. I find the sponge is the way to go to get heavy oxidation off and get back to shiny and the wool is good for getting excess solder off. If one isn't fixing things, the other will.
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I've always used a sponge or the front of my jeans when in the field. Haven't used brass wool. That seems like trying to shower without water.
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I've always used a sponge or the front on my jeans
You're a tougher man than I am. :-DD
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I've always used a sponge or the front of my jeans when in the field. Haven't used brass wool. That seems like trying to shower without water.
:-DD :-DD I was a diehard sponge guy, mainly because that is how I always did it. Once in a while I would use my finger tips or a tissue. A few years ago I finally tried brass wool. It's easier to maintain and seems to do a better job cleaning. It's rare I will use a sponge anymore.
****
We are almost into March. Tweezers should be hitting the market any day now!!!!
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In other news, my firmware update 1.2 -> 1.4 arrived but I've been under the weather so no chance to do that yet.
I did the update last night. One needs to swap a microcontroller in a socketed PLCC package. Extractor was supplied. New 1.4 firmware says Rev E on the label. No major dramas since I've done PLCC extraction before ... it takes a certain finessing even with an extractor. Serious torque on the screws that hold the front panel on. I would say that was the biggest surprise. :) I took my time so maybe 15 minutes tops since I actually read the instructions (that were v1.1 to v1.2 by the way, so a bit out of sync with the actual update). Anyway, Bob's your uncle and I'm back in business except for this hellish cold.
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I've always used a sponge or the front of my jeans when in the field. Haven't used brass wool. That seems like trying to shower without water.
A better analogy is that it's like a squeegee, wiping off the gunk. First time I tried it, I was very positively surprised at how much better it is than the damp sponge. I really do suggest you try it!
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You lot are a bad influence!
An ADS200 turned up today :)
It must have been on Farnell's shelves for a while. Firmware 1-2
Edit:
The top part of my hand piece stand is very wobbly. The screw at the rear seems to have had the threads destroyed :(
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You lot are a bad influence!
An ADS200 turned up today :)
It must have been on Farnell's shelves for a while. Firmware 1-2
The top part of my hand piece stand is very wobbly. The screw at the rear seems to have had the threads destroyed :(
Cool, you will get to enjoy the difference between the 1.2 and 1.4 firmware plus have a spare :)
I have several of the stands and they are essentially the same base part across both Intelliheat and Accudrive stations, I recall one was a bit loose after being fully tightened.
It may seem like thread is stripped when it isn't so careful to avoid overly tightening or crossing the thread. If it is stripped the screw will freely turn forever under screwing force (rather than tightening force). If that is not the case do the following which worked for me.
With a good screwdriver try and back out the screw if you can, ensure the thread is clean and apply some wax or oil on the screws thread (this will make it easier to tell if tight is tight). If there is still a bit of wiggle add a washer under the screws head. It can be anything bit of card, plastic, loop of wire or few turns of solder might even work, or you can add a shim or washer between the two plates if that works better.
You are just trying to add a spacer so if the thread is biting it will allow the screw to have more purchase to pull the two plates together. See how you go.
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Took it apart earlier.
The screw itself is fine and full of shavings. The thread in the aluminium of the top half of the stand is completely chewed out. It looks like the assembly monkey was a bit too eager with the screwdriver.
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Took it apart earlier.
The screw itself is fine and full of shavings. The thread in the aluminum of the top half of the stand is completely chewed out. It looks like the assembly monkey was a bit too eager with the screwdriver.
Just had a look at mine and seems an easy fix without going too OCD. Find a suitable nut for the screw (or replacement). To make it easier to install, put a dab of glue on the nut to fix it aligned with the hole on the inside of the top cover.
There is a nice flat surface for the nut to go against, the screw on the one I looked at seemed long enough to fit a washer and lock washer if you wanted to go all out. Now you can claim your station is fully modded. :D
Edit:
If you don't have glue you can also use tape to just get it started and hopefully the nut will self tighten under finger pressure. It's an old trick making captive screws by gluing, soldering, J-B welding etc (if that wasn't already obvious).
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Yes, it's easy enough to repair. Either nut and bolt or re-tap to next thread size.
It's a shame to have to fix a brand new stand. The Base unit itself is put together so well. :-+
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Yes, it's easy enough to repair. Either nut and bolt or re-tap to next thread size.
It's a shame to have to fix a brand new stand. The Base unit itself is put together so well. :-+
I'd just use a nut and the existing screw since its machine threaded. I tend to buy mostly secondhand gear that comes preloved unless it's unavoidable, so I can tell you time (and the right tools) heal all wounds :)
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Took it apart earlier.
The screw itself is fine and full of shavings. The thread in the aluminium of the top half of the stand is completely chewed out. It looks like the assembly monkey was a bit too eager with the screwdriver.
OK you bring an exception to the norm on this thread, why don't we see pictures? :-// It would help everyone if you'd post a serial number or PM it to PACE-Worldwide (Aaron, member here) so this can be tracked straight down to your "assembly monkey"... :) :-DD
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Snr Det. Cliff Mathews on the case. Don't list the serial number, you will be blacklisted by Pace for screw tampering. :) That was a joke btw.
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I'm in the USA and looking to pick up the ADS200 with the setback feature. Where is the best place to buy right now?
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I'm in the USA and looking to pick up the ADS200 with the setback feature. Where is the best place to buy right now?
I believe there is still EEVblog member pricing here:
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/)
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OK you bring an exception to the norm on this thread, why don't we see pictures? :-// It would help everyone if you'd post a serial number or PM it to PACE-Worldwide (Aaron, member here) so this can be tracked straight down to your "assembly monkey"... :) :-DD
I did try to take a picture of the threaded hole. I failed miserably. I'll get my better half on the case.
Serial number is 010-145-A-007-43297.
I've dropped an email to service@paceworldwide.
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[/quote]
I believe there is still EEVblog member pricing here:
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/)
[/quote]
How do you get the member price?
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I'm in Canada and have not purchased with them before. But search works wonders and I noticed "Gift Certificates or Coupon Code" appears at check out. Good reading: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/)
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I did try to take a picture of the threaded hole. I failed miserably. I'll get my better half on the case.
Serial number is 010-145-A-007-43297.
I've dropped an email to service@paceworldwide.
Likely stripped from too much torque. And really not enough meat there to make enough threads in that material (cast aluminum). I'd probably glue a stainless nut inside as suggested.
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I'm in Canada and have not purchased with them before. But search works wonders and I noticed "Gift Certificates or Coupon Code" appears at check out. Good reading: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/)
Thanks I found that thread. I needed to read 58 pages to find the code. Station and 3 tips for $265.00 shipped.
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I just noticed Pace has expanded the ADS200 standard tip range to now include a few more of the specialty and rework style tips, nice to see. Here are a few of them to give you an idea.
So the current count on their website is 45 Standard (https://paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td200-standard-blue-series-tips) and 17 Ultra performance (https://paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td200-ultra-performance-blue-series-tips).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=666264;image)
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I believe there is still EEVblog member pricing here:
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/)
This is where I got mine toward the end of last year. I can give you the code. You input it quite late in the checkout process if memory serves.
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I just noticed Pace has expanded the ADS200 standard tip range to now include a few more of the specialty and rework style tips, nice to see. Here are a few of them to give you an idea.
How do you use the square one? Once heated I would imagine you only have a second or two to get the part off. Shake the board? Desolder it upside down? Obviously I've never done that before. I assume this is for a QFP or PLCC or similar...
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With the hot tweezer delay, I'd guessed manpower was assigned to other products.. so pleasant surprise to see new tips :-+
(but at $91 Canuckistan bucks, the 25mm shovel will have to wait a while..). Yes, I'd appreciate a PM on that code Grant.
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How do you use the square one? Once heated I would imagine you only have a second or two to get the part off. Shake the board? Desolder it upside down? Obviously I've never done that before. I assume this is for a QFP or PLCC or similar...
Pace offers a few handpieces that do this kind of thing the TP-65, TP-100, SX-100, MT-100, TD100, TD100a etc. There is no suction on the ADS200 TD200 handpiece but you can use pickup tools for removal on tips with openings on the corners. These two videos cover the same principles of desoldering and removal even though it's for the TP-65 and hot air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5txvdqjsNuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5txvdqjsNuM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8MY9_bDTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8MY9_bDTY)
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With the hot tweezer delay, I'd guessed manpower was assigned to other products.. so pleasant surprise to see new tips :-+
They probably got a few things going on in the background if they are expanding the Accudrive series i.e. 2 or 3 channel stations, it sort of makes the new mini tweezers essential. More aluminum!
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I wonder if Pace will make a custom branding iron tip for my ranch? :-DD
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I wonder if Pace will make a custom branding iron tip for my ranch? :-DD
They probably would if you paid them enough! :p
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Pace worldwide have responded today.
They want the tool stand back to see what failed and they're sending a replacement out along with updated firmware.
No quibble, just where do we send the replacement.
Excellent support :-+
Edit:
Forgot to add that they informed me that my unit was built in July 2018 and stocked by Farnell in October 2018.
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The ADS200 showed up yesterday with 3 tips. So far so good. Seems like a nicely built station. I will be able to use my Edsyn 951 now exclusively for through hole work and the pace will be mainly for SMD soldering. I needed (wanted) something with faster, easier hot tip changes. It gets old burning yourself changing tips. Im glad to see Pace expanding the rework tip lineup for the ADS200, thats a good sign for owners.
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Ended up staying with the older technology.
Home made holder for the MT-100 MiniTweez that bolts to the side of my older P90 holder. Takes up no room and is VERY easy to take the tweezers in and out. Having used these tweezers with Pace's holder for many years, another advantage is there is no stress placed on the rubber handles.
I may add some holes to the top to hold a few of the tips. Desk stays clean when I am working and having the tip exposed has not been a concern.
Would have liked to bought the new setup but I really was not sure when they would become available. I have a lot of experience with these and have been very happy with them except for the damage I have shown to the handles.
I did get the iron to go with it but I've been very happy with the old P90 workhorse.
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On mine, I might slightly widen the lower part of the tweezer holder that supports the grips. Put some heatshrink on that and the top part that the black plastic rests on, those look like the contact points.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=501776;image)
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There's a mistake in the manual for the ADS200 regarding replacement sponges for the tool stand. The correct part number is 4021-0013-P3.
I ordered some sponges from TEquipment using the part number in the manual, and the sponges looked nothing like what came with the stand. I didn't bother sending them back because the cost was minimal. I emailed customer service at Pace about the discrepancy, and got a quick thank you for pointing out the incorrect part number. They sent me some sponges at no cost. Really great service.
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That's only part of what makes Pace a real JBC Killer :box: No, I won't change back the title, fan-boy's are a pain in the sponge..
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That's only part of what makes Pace a real JBC Killer :box: No, I won't change back the title, fan-boy's are a pain in the sponge..
Then at least take off the parenthesis.
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There's a mistake in the manual for the ADS200 regarding replacement sponges for the tool stand. The correct part number is 4021-0013-P3.
I'm guessing this photo is wrong then?
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/4021-0013-P3/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/4021-0013-P3/Soldering-Accessories/)
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I think you're right, mine appear smaller and have the 'H-cut' in them..
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A bit off subject. TEquipment doesn't carry the Kester line of solder products. But they have this. Has anyone tried this bargain solder? Has good reviews.
https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481 (https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481)
Did you try it? I don't see where it says what kind of rosin flux it is.
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There's a mistake in the manual for the ADS200 regarding replacement sponges for the tool stand. The correct part number is 4021-0013-P3.
I'm guessing this photo is wrong then?
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/4021-0013-P3/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/4021-0013-P3/Soldering-Accessories/)
That photo is wrong. It's the same photo that's shown with the incorrect part number from the manual. (Some other online retailers also show the wrong photo.) I can't vouch for whether TEquipment will send you the correct sponges even with the correct part number, so you might want to contact them before ordering. If you order directly from Pace, you'll get the correct sponges:
https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/replacement-sponges-for-new-tip-and-tool (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/replacement-sponges-for-new-tip-and-tool)
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Hmm, Amerway solder in PA and Tequipment could be closer than one might think.. I've posted on Amerway before I think.
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That's only part of what makes Pace a real JBC Killer :box: No, I won't change back the title, fan-boy's are a pain in the sponge..
Thank you for no longer triggering me with the original provocative title. By the way, the sponges are great for detailing your car.
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A bit off subject. TEquipment doesn't carry the Kester line of solder products. But they have this. Has anyone tried this bargain solder? Has good reviews.
https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481 (https://www.tequipment.net/Amerway/AM63.37.SPOOL.1LB/Solder-Wire/?b=y&v=124481)
Did you try it? I don't see where it says what kind of rosin flux it is.
"It is standard rosin core. It is neither no clean nor water soluble"
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I plan to order a roll of that solder at some point. For $10, I'l give it a shot. Reviews say it has good wetting properties.
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Hey folks,
I bought a Pace ADS200 in February of this year. I use it for hobbiest level repair work. Last week, my tip I use most went open. I have used a hakko 935 for almost 20 years and have never had a heating cartridge go open. I've replaced tips due to oxidation, but never have I had a cartridge fail.
I wrote to pace worldwide to inquire what the expected life on their cartridges is and whether there might be a fault with my unit, 2.5 months of use did not seem acceptable. They have not bothered to reply. I went ahead and ordered more tips, but yesterday I had it blow one of the other tips open. This one had barely any use, maybe 2-3 hours over the last two months.
I'm wondering what kind of life the rest of you are getting out of the cartridges? I really think there may be an issue with my unit. Fwiw, I never use a sponge, I know it's harder on plating, but I use the brass wool. The point is, these types are not seeing repeated thermal shock.
Thanks,
Jason
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Curiously I have one tip that's been "odd", but then I dropped it on a hard floor (oops). What is your test method (outside of the iron)? Are you testing resistance or continuity? My unit is about 8 months old.
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Hey folks,
I bought a Pace ADS200 in February of this year. I use it for hobbiest level repair work. Last week, my tip I use most went open. I have used a hakko 935 for almost 20 years and have never had a heating cartridge go open. I've replaced tips due to oxidation, but never have I had a cartridge fail.
I wrote to pace worldwide to inquire what the expected life on their cartridges is and whether there might be a fault with my unit, 2.5 months of use did not seem acceptable. They have not bothered to reply. I went ahead and ordered more tips, but yesterday I had it blow one of the other tips open. This one had barely any use, maybe 2-3 hours over the last two months.
I'm wondering what kind of life the rest of you are getting out of the cartridges? I really think there may be an issue with my unit. Fwiw, I never use a sponge, I know it's harder on plating, but I use the brass wool. The point is, these types are not seeing repeated thermal shock.
Thanks,
Jason
Hi Jason,
Aaron from PACE here. I'm the guy that usually receives the comment form from our website but I can't recall seeing anything from you yesterday. Did you send it to the support@paceworldwide.com, as I do not receive messages from e-address? Just judging from your comments, I'd say it's a bad tip, which we can replace. Please message me a part number and your address and I'll have a new one shipped out.
To answer your questions on expected life expectancy, tip life will depend on several factors:
Tip Temperature: the higher the temp, the more the oxidation of the protective iron plating of the tip, and thus lessening the life. This especially important if you are using lead-free solder, which is 3-5x more corrosive to the plating than Tin-Lead solder.
Duty Cycle: Some customers use an iron for multiple shifts 24/7 (which I'd consider extremely heavy duty use, tips possibly lasting for 1-5 days), some use a tip every day (moderate use) while others use it occasionally or just several times a week. If you are using the iron everyday to solder in a single component, the tip should last anywhere from 6 months to over a year.
Common Sense Soldering Practices: You should always add solder to the end of the tip after use or when you place the iron in it's tip holder (protects the iron plating); If you are heavy handed, applying too much pressure to the tip causes stress fractures in the plating, causing premature failure (so always use a light touch); using an overly water-drenched sponge can cause thermal shock to the tip plating;
There are many more things you can do to extend tip life but let's get you a new tip as the one you had seems to be defective.
Hope this helps,
Aaron
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Aaron, thank you for the reply. I sent the email last week when the first tip failed. I had a second tip fail yesterday. The tip yesterday had barely been used. The first one to fail was the one I used primarily. To be clear, the plating has not failed on either tip. Both burned open, and the controller read CHP. The resistance of both tips is infinite, where a good cartridge reads about 4R. I use this as a hobbyist, not in production. Probably 3-4 days a week with less than 4hrs with the unit at temp. I typically run at 600-650° F.
I am very concerned that my controller has an issue. The one tip that had seen the most use, I sort of understand, but I still think that life is abnormally short. The second tip had been used very little. I bought more tips, but I'm concerned that it is just going to blow them open again, and as a hobbyist, I cannot afford to keep throwing money away. I will PM you my email address if you would like to contact me there.
Thank you,
Jason
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Aaron, thank you for the reply. I sent the email last week when the first tip failed. I had a second tip fail yesterday. The tip yesterday had barely been used. The first one to fail was the one I used primarily. To be clear, the plating has not failed on either tip. Both burned open, and the controller read CHP. The resistance of both tips is infinite, where a good cartridge reads about 4R. I use this as a hobbyist, not in production. Probably 3-4 days a week with less than 4hrs with the unit at temp. I typically run at 600-650° F.
I am very concerned that my controller has an issue. The one tip that had seen the most use, I sort of understand, but I still think that life is abnormally short. The second tip had been used very little. I bought more tips, but I'm concerned that it is just going to blow them open again, and as a hobbyist, I cannot afford to keep throwing money away. I will PM you my email address if you would like to contact me there.
Thank you,
Jason
Totally understand! I'll get back with you soon.
Aaron
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tweezers for PACE ADS200??
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tweezers for PACE ADS200??
Not released yet, as far as I'm aware. But promised :)
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tweezers for PACE ADS200??
Shock is correct. We have a new Thermal Tweezer specifically designed for the ADS200 that is almost ready but product launch is set for late Summer 2019. The Tweezer handpiece is very close but there are some long lead-time items (i.e. castings for a new ISB Instant Setback Tool Stand; several new fine point tip cartridges for 0201-type micro-components) that will take at least 3 more months to complete. Beta tests with customers are slated for early August. Product launch in September.
Aaron
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Is https://www.accessotronik.com/ (https://www.accessotronik.com/) the best Canadian distributor? Sadly I find myself just north of the border in BC.
Also, for the instant setback, worth the 75CAD? Not convinced since I will not be using the iron heavily (few times a week, at most), but then again, I would hope the station would last a good few years so maybe it's worth the up front cost.
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Is https://www.accessotronik.com/ (https://www.accessotronik.com/) the best Canadian distributor? Sadly I find myself just north of the border in BC.
Also, for the instant setback, worth the 75CAD? Not convinced since I will not be using the iron heavily (few times a week, at most), but then again, I would hope the station would last a good few years so maybe it's worth the up front cost.
I'm a huge fan of Accessotronik as they stock product well and are very supportive to customers. They are also very technically knowlegeable about PACE products and have their own soldering/rework training programs available to Canadians, all using PACE equipment. Arbell is also a good distributor. The other distributors servicing Canada reside in the US, so I would check out Accessotronik and Arbell first.
Concerning the Instant SetBack Tool Stand, I think it's well worth the investment since it automatically drops the idling tip temperature to below solder melt when placed into the stand, reducing oxidation and iron plating dissolution, significantly extending tip life. This is especially important if you are using lead-free solder which is far more corrosive to the iron plating, especially at elevated temperatures. It's also recommended if you use the iron frequently. The extended tip life will more than pay for itself over a year or 2. But if you are an occasional solderer, you may opt to program the unit to "set-back" the temperature after a period of inactivity. You can also program an "Auto-Off" function to turn the unit off after it has transitioned into "SetBack." Both of these features can be programmed into any PACE power supply (does not require the Instant Setback Stand). Hope this helps.
Aaron
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Beta tests with customers are slated for early August. Product launch in September.
Hand up.
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Beta tests with customers are slated for early August. Product launch in September.
Hand up.
Hi Dave,
We'll get back to you when it's ready!
Aaron
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How does one get the new firmware?
Is a HEX file available for self programming?
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I'm a huge fan of Accessotronik as they stock product well and are very supportive to customers.
I did not get that feeling. They are a weird one. Bought a few times from them and they always slow on shipping. No shipping notices. Lastly I just gave up on waiting, just ordered and moved with my life, knowing they will ship it later than sooner.
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How does one get the new firmware?
Is a HEX file available for self programming?
Unfortunately not. You have to open the front panel and remove/replace a 44 pin PLCC. Yep, old school! I'll send you the latest Rev 1-4 Chip, which takes care of most of the screen weirdness while reaching the initial set temperature (you reported about this in your original review video). I'll send you the chip tomorrow.
Aaron
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I'm a huge fan of Accessotronik as they stock product well and are very supportive to customers.
I did not get that feeling. They are a weird one. Bought a few times from them and they always slow on shipping. No shipping notices. Lastly I just gave up on waiting, just ordered and moved with my life, knowing they will ship it later than sooner.
First I heard of this. For PACE, they're a great distributor, but I'm sure they're not perfect. Thanks for the feedback.
Aaron
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How does one get the new firmware?
Is a HEX file available for self programming?
Unfortunately not. You have to open the front panel and remove/replace a 44 pin PLCC. Yep, old school! I'll send you the latest Rev 1-4 Chip, which takes care of most of the screen weirdness while reaching the initial set temperature (you reported about this in your original review video). I'll send you the chip tomorrow.
Thanks.
I know you have to replace the chip, but if the hex file was available then people could burn their own.
Concern over clones?
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How does one get the new firmware?
Is a HEX file available for self programming?
Unfortunately not. You have to open the front panel and remove/replace a 44 pin PLCC. Yep, old school! I'll send you the latest Rev 1-4 Chip, which takes care of most of the screen weirdness while reaching the initial set temperature (you reported about this in your original review video). I'll send you the chip tomorrow.
Thanks.
I know you have to replace the chip, but if the hex file was available then people could burn their own.
Concern over clones?
I'm really not sure. I think the designer has used that design for a number of our products, and he uses the same boards/chips for multiple versions of our soldering and desoldering stations. Economies of scale? I'll have to ask him.
Aaron
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Thanks.
I know you have to replace the chip, but if the hex file was available then people could burn their own.
Concern over clones?
I'd think the ability for hobbyists to be able to alter the programming would increase popularity of the ADS200. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
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Thanks.
I know you have to replace the chip, but if the hex file was available then people could burn their own.
Concern over clones?
I'd think the ability for hobbyists to be able to alter the programming would increase popularity of the ADS200. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
I agree. There has been opposition from our Engineering staff for some technical reason, but I'm not sure why. I'll investigate.
Aaron
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Back on February I bought the Pace ADS200 with ISB stand plus 5 Standard Blue Series Tips and I just did the firmware update from Rev 1-2 to Rev 1-4.
It works like a charm. No issues. 8)
Delivery time: only 4 business days after I sent an email to Aaron (Pace USA). 4 days!
Changing the chip: About 10 mins after I read carefully the well-documented instructions.
So thumbs up to Pace and Aaron for the excellent after-sales service! :-+
I've read all the thread and comments so I thought it might be helpful to share my experience.
I have zero problems with tip oxidation, failures, soldering station noise, etc. I use leaded solder (Kester 331, 63/37 & Kester 245, 63/37) and brass wool for tip cleaning. Everything goes smoothly.
I use mostly the 1130-0019-P1 1/16" 30° Chisel and it's like new. In the beginning, the station was kept on about 5 hours a day for 3 weeks at 350C° during soldering if that's something.
Advice: "You should always add solder to the end of the tip after use or when you place the iron in it's tip holder", Aaron, Pace USA.
The thread has a lot of info and tips about the soldering process such as Pace ADS200 settings, temperatures, how to extend tip life etc.
Note: The solder I use is a matter of personal preference. You should always check the datasheets!
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Hi
I bought mine from Farnell / Newark in the uk.
I requested the firmware upgrade from 1.2 as the new firmware was already out when I bought a new iron.
Farnell were useless/ bad at communication / didn't follow through and I never did manage to get the update.
Peter
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Hi
I bought mine from Farnell / Newark in the uk.
I requested the firmware upgrade from 1.2 as the new firmware was already out when I bought a new iron.
Farnell were useless/ bad at communication / didn't follow through and I never did manage to get the update.
Peter
Peter,
Send me your mailing address via EEVBlog Message and I'll have our UK office send you out the latest Rev 1-4 Firmware Chip & Chip Puller.
Thanks,
Aaron
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Thanks.
I know you have to replace the chip, but if the hex file was available then people could burn their own.
Concern over clones?
I'd think the ability for hobbyists to be able to alter the programming would increase popularity of the ADS200. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
In theory, yes, in practice most people don't care. They just want their soldering iron to work.
The problem with open sourcing code like this often comes down to product support. Grant, it's only a soldering iron, so not much to go wrong, but still Pace could end fielding support requests for software that isn't theirs. Either bugs, operational issues, or bricked units when people try to upgrade.
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Thanks.
I know you have to replace the chip, but if the hex file was available then people could burn their own.
Concern over clones?
I'd think the ability for hobbyists to be able to alter the programming would increase popularity of the ADS200. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
In theory, yes, in practice most people don't care. They just want their soldering iron to work.
The problem with open sourcing code like this often comes down to product support. Grant, it's only a soldering iron, so not much to go wrong, but still Pace could end fielding support requests for software that isn't theirs. Either bugs, operational issues, or bricked units when people try to upgrade.
That's exactly what PACE's Engineering Manager told me a few weeks back!
Aaron
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Not to mention what happens when someone’s crappy DIY firmware causes it to lock up with the output triac on and overheats the iron, frying the tip or worse. (Even if you put a disclaimer in the warranty terms, how do you prove a complainant didn’t just replace the stock firmware after frying something, leaving pace on the hook for warranty fulfillment?)
So while I like the idea of open firmware, I can totally see why a manufacturer wouldn’t want to open that can of worms. (This isn’t like a router or something. It’s controlling serious hardware. One could certainly architect a soldering station with all kinds of hardware interlocks or whatever, but then you’re raising the cost a lot, and locking some decisions into hardware.)
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I hope nobody will get insulted with this.
When I was a kid in socialist country, I pretty much had to make all my tools. Lab PSU, AC millivoltmeter, signal tracer, continuity beeper (analog meter era) etc etc... I had store bought multimeter and soldering iron. I really understand "make it myself" attitude. When it makes sense.
I'm fed up with people asking for manufacturers to "make it open source"...
It is just crazy.
If you want to play LEGO with electronics either you design your own soldering controller (or spectrum analyser or whatever) and make it whatever you want..
Or if you don't know enough to design it yourself, go out there and get one of already published open source or free designs and use them. There are dozens of them, in different stages of development
Profesional made equipment is exactly that: professional made by professionals. They spent years designing it, creating all kinds of intellectual properties that enables them to do their job. They don't make hobby kit products. They make real tools, for real work.
So no, not only they don't want to just give away to somebody that just wants to play with the stuff, they shouldn't do that.
They shouldn't degrade pro tools to DIY kits.
Most hobbyist are not qualified enough to even know proper soldering temperatures and procedures. Thinking that they will "improve" on professional product is hubris. Sorry.
If you don't like product as it is, get one that better suits you.
Or make your own. Which is best option, because you will learn a ton about the topic.
And if you put enough effort and time you might even make something as good as ones made by pros.
In which case you will learn why pro products cost real money...
Regards to all...
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Send me your mailing address via EEVBlog Message and I'll have our UK office send you out the latest Rev 1-4 Firmware Chip & Chip Puller.
Speaking of the UK office, did they ever get in touch with Sibalco, your Swiss reseller? They still haven't added the ADS200 to the website. (At least Farnell has resumed consumer sales to Switzerland...)
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Thinking that they will "improve" on professional product is hubris.
Yes yes yes!!!
Like... 99% of the time, your crappy DIY mod isn't going to improve things.
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Send me your mailing address via EEVBlog Message and I'll have our UK office send you out the latest Rev 1-4 Firmware Chip & Chip Puller.
Speaking of the UK office, did they ever get in touch with Sibalco, your Swiss reseller? They still haven't added the ADS200 to the website. (At least Farnell has resumed consumer sales to Switzerland...)
Thanks Tooki,
I'll report this to our UK office, which is responsible for covering Switzerland.
Aaron
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I know, you said in an earlier reply that you'd tell them. I'm wondering if they ever followed up...
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I know, you said in an earlier reply that you'd tell them. I'm wondering if they ever followed up...
Tooki,
I sent your comments, but it's up to Sibalco to actually deliver. They are a small distributor for PACE, so I suspect we don't garner a whole lot of clout with them.
Aaron
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Not to mention what happens when someone’s crappy DIY firmware causes it to lock up with the output triac on and overheats the iron, frying the tip or worse. (Even if you put a disclaimer in the warranty terms, how do you prove a complainant didn’t just replace the stock firmware after frying something, leaving pace on the hook for warranty fulfillment?)
Yep, could potentially be dangerous.
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Not to mention what happens when someone’s crappy DIY firmware causes it to lock up with the output triac on and overheats the iron, frying the tip or worse. (Even if you put a disclaimer in the warranty terms, how do you prove a complainant didn’t just replace the stock firmware after frying something, leaving pace on the hook for warranty fulfillment?)
Yep, could potentially be dangerous.
Nothing new here. Anyone who alters any product would void the warranty. And would likely will be hobbyists who know the risks. If someone bricked a unit by programming I would think they'd be smart enough to use a fresh PLCC and program it themselves. Not rocket science. But I can understand why Pace doesn't want to deal with that.
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Labjr, the Unisolder probably runs the ADS200s TD-200 iron (it runs the TD-100, TD-100a) and it supports unbuffered DC and series k type thermocouple as far as I'm aware, so you may just need add a profile. Unsure about power delivery though and if you can easily drive the Pace k type tweezers.
However my opinion in actually building a Unisolder, it's an overkill. You have to bring your own iron, stand, case, transformer and days worth of - parts ordering, assembly of two PCBs, troubleshooting, editing code, flashing, then finally station assembly. By that time you're up many hundreds in effort and time, if even you can complete the task.
The value in the ADS200 is not only in the iron design, but the stand, station, enclosure and a very effective circuit. Unless someones owned or used a Pace station before, they have no terms of reference how substantial it is build wise. It could split other stations open easily, like a Piñata.
I understand you have been looking for a couple of years, you know the Pace has the power and the best consumables price for genuine tips that don't skimp on mass or plating so they appear to heat up fast. But even if you want a faster performing tip the ADS200 has you covered with standard tips, and no calibration fiddling, plus the tweezers any day now!
I know you want a custom display, but I still can't understand why you haven't just brought one already and started working on a your own micro and drop in replacement PCB. Either way even if you wait for someone else to design a drop in (which I expect will happen eventually) it's far easier when already owning the station.
I think you are splitting peas, go spend the 2 bucks 30 and get the instant setback version with a tip and start working on it, get a thread going and collaborate.
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Not to mention what happens when someone’s crappy DIY firmware causes it to lock up with the output triac on and overheats the iron, frying the tip or worse. (Even if you put a disclaimer in the warranty terms, how do you prove a complainant didn’t just replace the stock firmware after frying something, leaving pace on the hook for warranty fulfillment?)
Yep, could potentially be dangerous.
Nothing new here. Anyone who alters any product would void the warranty. And would likely will be hobbyists who know the risks. If someone bricked a unit by programming I would think they'd be smart enough to use a fresh PLCC and program it themselves. Not rocket science. But I can understand why Pace doesn't want to deal with that.
Sure, Pace can't be (successfully) sued for it, but it's just too much trouble.
They could release the HEX file though for user firmware updates instead of sending out chips.
I'm rather surprised a modern design like this uses an old school OTP part.
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The value in the ADS200 is not only in the iron design, but the stand, station, enclosure and a very effective circuit. Unless someones owned or used a Pace station before, they have no terms of reference how substantial it is build wise. It could split other stations open easily, like a Piñata.
I'm really liking the ADS200 and it's mostly my daily driver now.
Looking forward to the firmware update.
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I'm really liking the ADS200 and it's mostly my daily driver now.
Why not jbc?
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Nothing new here. Anyone who alters any product would void the warranty. And would likely will be hobbyists who know the risks. If someone bricked a unit by programming I would think they'd be smart enough to use a fresh PLCC and program it themselves. Not rocket science. But I can understand why Pace doesn't want to deal with that.
Except that no, they might not understand the risks at all.
And unlike, say, a Linksys router where botched custom firmware would, at absolute horrible worst, either brick the thing or have the FCC coming around your house to find why you’re broadcasting on a channel that’s not allowed in USA, a soldering station firmware failure could potentially burn down your house.
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Yet there are many Chinese stations with questionable firmware quality (ksger, etc). I'm also not sure "reputable" stations are audited for bugs by independent authorities, otherwise there would be a certificate or something. Without a cert with a protocol how it was tested we don't know if even official firmware is safe or not.
A good safety design should not rely on software for safety. There should be additional protection like fuses, sensors, etc.
Another thing is, with my equipment I prefer to decide myself what I can and what I cannot do. For a manufacturer any tear down or unauthorized fix is a safety concern. Shall we forbid repairing equipment?
So, my point is, all that usual safety talks are just that -- talks. We had same discussion about, e.g., writing custom firmware for a dmm, etc. It's always possible to make up a catastrophic scenario, and there is a term for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUD .
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a soldering station firmware failure could potentially burn down your house.
Look, a branded soldering station tried to burn Dave's house! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8itTKH5tj3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8itTKH5tj3s) . Hope Weller releases a software update soon to fix the danger...
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And unlike, say, a Linksys router where botched custom firmware would, at absolute horrible worst, either brick the thing or have the FCC coming around your house to find why you’re broadcasting on a channel that’s not allowed in USA, a soldering station firmware failure could potentially burn down your house.
Then Cliff should be publicly shamed for modding his unit. And I'm expecting this forum to be shut down for allowing the discussion.
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Yet there are many Chinese stations with questionable firmware quality (ksger, etc). I'm also not sure "reputable" stations are audited for bugs by independent authorities, otherwise there would be a certificate or something. Without a cert with a protocol how it was tested we don't know if even official firmware is safe or not.
A good safety design should not rely on software for safety. There should be additional protection like fuses, sensors, etc.
Another thing is, with my equipment I prefer to decide myself what I can and what I cannot do. For a manufacturer any tear down or unauthorized fix is a safety concern. Shall we forbid repairing equipment?
So, my point is, all that usual safety talks are just that -- talks. We had same discussion about, e.g., writing custom firmware for a dmm, etc. It's always possible to make up a catastrophic scenario, and there is a term for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUD .
Whoosh... the sound of the point going right over your head.
The issue is that if a catastrophic outcome happens, and it’s shown that the manufacturer caused or encouraged the modification that led to the fault, they could be exposing themselves to massive legal liability.
And no, safety discussions aren’t just “talk”. As they say, safety rules are written in blood. Most catastrophes are the result of the perfect alignment of little issues, each of which is insignificant on its own. But had any one of them been prevented, the catastrophe would have been averted. And that’s why safety engineering often appears pedantic and stupid, but it’s not.
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And no, safety discussions aren’t just “talk”. As they say, safety rules are written in blood.
FUD again... You guys approaching problem from the very wrong side. Just install a fire alarm in the lab. It should be there anyway. It is that simple and get you all equipment covered. No amount of engineering on a soldering iron can replace it.
Also a switch to shutdown all equipment at once when it's not in use.
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And unlike, say, a Linksys router where botched custom firmware would, at absolute horrible worst, either brick the thing or have the FCC coming around your house to find why you’re broadcasting on a channel that’s not allowed in USA, a soldering station firmware failure could potentially burn down your house.
Then Cliff should be publicly shamed for modding his unit. And I'm expecting this forum to be shut down for allowing the discussion.
Which? The bigger heat sink? or extra secondary winding? I tried to stop myself :-DD But it is fused..
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When I was a kid, I made several guitar and bass amplifiers for myself and my friends. I made one as a trade for a Ibanez Chorus pedal.
I did everything, "from the scratch" except components and speaker units. I had metal panels cut by somebody else, I didn't have way of cutting it.
The wooden box, veneer, PCBs, everything. Schematics were painstakingly made by designing some parts by myself, and partially by reverse engineering several Peavey, Acoustic, Ampeg and other amplifiers.
No Internet then.
I didn't whine how life is unfair because Peavey didn't make a version of amplifier with full schematics and operating principles and with detailed know how how to tweak preamp or equalizers for you to be able to change two capacitors and than have bragging rights that you "improved" great amplifier...
I did make dozens of modifications on people's amps when they wanted something tweaked. But I did it myself. And I had a reputation of being goto guy for that kind of work.
But that was all my effort.
Nowdays, people want for manufacturers to spend 30 engineer/years to develop a product, and then to "open it" (mean give all connected "know-how" for free) so few users that didn't buy soldering iron to actually use it, but to play with the iron itself, can brag on the youtube something like : "SHOCKING: New release of jailbreaked firmware "Blue fire 2" for PACE ADS200 improves soldering time of pennies for more than 2% ... (DISCLAIMER: "Blue fire 2" firmware damages soldering tips after 2 hours, but speed increase was totally worth it....) And then 10 minute video of a guy soldering pennies together..
I bought ADS200 EXACTLY because it is no nonsense, honest to God, just excellent soldering iron. You can set temperature, you can solder with it. It has fantastic choice of tips, it is very powerful, yet very compact. You want touch screen, buy JBC.
People that don't use soldering stations as a tool, but actually want to tinker with station itself are not target market of pro companies. Sorry, it's just so.
Don't like that? Reverse engineer board. It is very simple actually. Reverse engineer it, make whatever you think is cool, and make it open source.
Make it so it can be installed in original controller as an aftermarket change. Or make whole different front panel (can be PCB style) that can be installed in a box.
And put that in open source. Whoever does that has my respect. Huge respect.
But you do that on your own time, with your resources and knowledge, with your own responsibility.
Asking somebody else to do that for you is kinda lame...
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And no, safety discussions aren’t just “talk”. As they say, safety rules are written in blood.
FUD again... You guys approaching problem from the very wrong side. Just install a fire alarm in the lab. It should be there anyway. It is that simple and get you all equipment covered. No amount of engineering on a soldering iron can replace it.
That is just about the stupidest thing I have ever read.
It’s not “FUD” to want things to not catch fire in the first place, you half-wit.
Also a switch to shutdown all equipment at once when it's not in use.
This is the only thing you’ve said so far which makes any sense. But it doesn’t abrogate the need for things to be designed for safety, and for fail-safe design.
Plus, as I said, you have still completely missed the real point that I was making, namely of legal liability in the case of unsafe failure.
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Noone is saying don't DIY, they are saying DIY by design has risks (especially with heating tools) as the testing and safety falls into the hands of the user.
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I'm really liking the ADS200 and it's mostly my daily driver now.
Why not jbc?
The JBC is in the other office cubicle at present. Gear gets moved around in the lab constantly and I usually just use the one that's closest at the time.
Don't get me wrong, the JBC is the better performing iron, and you'd expect that based on price and specs. But most of the time I don't need the JBC performance, so the Pace is more than suitable for most work I do. And I'm really liking the feel of it and the shorter tip-grip length. And I have a ton more tips for the Pace. It's better than the Hakko.
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Thank you very much Aaron
I had the chip arrive in the post very quickly.
I appreciate your prompt support .
It restores my confidence in Pace
Peter
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We use the ST50/TD100 irons all day every day for repair work. The current set of tips we've been using were ordered over a year ago and are used for about 1-2 hrs total each day, and they are still fine.
I've just ordered two new ADS200 irons because they cost about the same as a second hand ST50/TD100, so I'm looking forward to trying out the new kit. It does seem that Pace discontinue stuff pretty quickly though.
Edit: Reading the last page of this thread indicates that this station is/was sold by Farnell. I've bought most of my Pace gear in the past from Farnell however they only list the ADS200 tips with no mention of the soldering station. Have Farnell stopped selling Pace gear?
I ordered mine from exmel.co.uk who have been extremely helpful and quick to deal with.
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I think they have a problem with their product descriptions. I've noticed the tips do not show as results consistently unless you search for Pace 1130 or Pace 1131.
ADS200 shows the stations in the first page of results
ADS 200 you get nothing
Pace ADS200 it shows up in the second page of results
Pace ADS 200 you just get the stands which don't show in those other searches
See if you get the same, it might pay to contact them and let them know.
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I have a suggestion/complaint about ISB cubby cable. I keep station(controller unit) on the shelf above desk, and just put iron holder on the desk.
ISB cable from iron stand to the back of station is much shorter that cable on iron handle, and I can't keep controler(power) unit where I kept old iron station.
Cable should be as long as handle cable ...
I would change it but don't have such a nice cable as is used on it originally.
On the other hand soldering performance is nothing short of spectacular...
REALLY can't wait for tweezers ... :-)
Regards,
Sinisa
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Hard to make one size suit everyone, for people who keep the stand closer to the station they will end up with too much cable. Could you make a female to male extension instead of replacing the cable?
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Could you make a female to male extension instead of replacing the cable?
That's what I would do. It looks like it's 3 pin mini din (https://www.google.com/search?q=3+pin+mini+din&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4js2V1avjAhUEbc0KHXicDocQ_AUoAnoECA0QAg&biw=414&bih=622). I didn't find any extension cables in a quick search, though.
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I didn't find any extension cables in a quick search, though.
You could make an extension pretty easily with a male and female connector. You would only need to use two of the conductors for the ADS200 ISB stand.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Male-Female-Mini-DIN-Plug-Socket-Connector-3-4-5-6-7-8-PIN-Chassis-Cable-Mount/392270523424?hash=item5b55252c20:m:mSwd74IUuARk_kRIUFAx81Q (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Male-Female-Mini-DIN-Plug-Socket-Connector-3-4-5-6-7-8-PIN-Chassis-Cable-Mount/392270523424?hash=item5b55252c20:m:mSwd74IUuARk_kRIUFAx81Q)
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We use the ST50/TD100 irons all day every day for repair work. The current set of tips we've been using were ordered over a year ago and are used for about 1-2 hrs total each day, and they are still fine.
I've just ordered two new ADS200 irons because they cost about the same as a second hand ST50/TD100, so I'm looking forward to trying out the new kit. It does seem that Pace discontinue stuff pretty quickly though.
Edit: Reading the last page of this thread indicates that this station is/was sold by Farnell. I've bought most of my Pace gear in the past from Farnell however they only list the ADS200 tips with no mention of the soldering station. Have Farnell stopped selling Pace gear?
I ordered mine from exmel.co.uk who have been extremely helpful and quick to deal with.
Comes right up for me: https://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0581/soldering-station-with-isb-tool/dp/2893441?st=ads200
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We use the ST50/TD100 irons all day every day for repair work. The current set of tips we've been using were ordered over a year ago and are used for about 1-2 hrs total each day, and they are still fine.
I've just ordered two new ADS200 irons because they cost about the same as a second hand ST50/TD100, so I'm looking forward to trying out the new kit. It does seem that Pace discontinue stuff pretty quickly though.
Edit: Reading the last page of this thread indicates that this station is/was sold by Farnell. I've bought most of my Pace gear in the past from Farnell however they only list the ADS200 tips with no mention of the soldering station. Have Farnell stopped selling Pace gear?
I ordered mine from exmel.co.uk who have been extremely helpful and quick to deal with.
Comes right up for me: https://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0581/soldering-station-with-isb-tool/dp/2893441?st=ads200
Wow, that's annoying. I tried searching for ADS200, ADS-200, ADS 200 etc... and also searching all of their Pace products. Farnell's search function is rubbish though, usually I just google for the part numbers I need and find them that way.
Exemel were cheaper anyway, £550 for two irons with 6 tips.
The ADS200 is good, about the same as the ST50/TD100 but the handpiece is a bit nicer to use and it heats up more quickly. For the price it's excellent, and the Pace stuff has always been poles apart from the low end Hakko irons IMO (but I've always hated their tips/installation).
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Hard to make one size suit everyone, for people who keep the stand closer to the station they will end up with too much cable. Could you make a female to male extension instead of replacing the cable?
Of course. But I don't have source for nice heat resistant soft cable, and two heavy connectors on a cable (male/female) make cable hang wrong and noncompliant.
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Hard to make one size suit everyone, for people who keep the stand closer to the station they will end up with too much cable. Could you make a female to male extension instead of replacing the cable?
Of course. But I don't have source for nice heat resistant soft cable, and two heavy connectors on a cable (male/female) make cable hang wrong and noncompliant.
Simply drill a hole in the front panel and reroute that connector, there is enough cable internally to do it. (At least on my station there was)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=482576;image)
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I thought I’d finally post an update since people have been pm’ing me if I added an LCD to the ADS200 or not. Well yes, I ended up making a replacement control board with an LCD. Of course it took forever since I had to stop all projects for 6+ months to deal with the real world. Images of the final assembly, actual board and Kicad models are attached.
Here’s what I changed over the OEM system:
- Live tip temperature updated at 4 Hz
- Set point temperature display
- Cold junction (handpiece) temperature display
- Power meter and value updated at 8 Hz
- ISB indicator
- 5 preset temperatures shown on the display
- 28V to 5V buck converter with 3.3V post linear regulator. 1mV RMS, 2mVpp on the 3.3V rail. (No more hot heat sink next to an electrolytic.)
As people “discussed” in several preceding pages, there wasn’t really a reason to make this. I don’t really need all of the information, but it was a good project for me since I haven’t used a transformer and AC rectification or thermocouples in a project yet.
Obviously with the large display I couldn’t reuse the OEM front panel, so I laser cut a new one. I then heated it and bent it to make it fit the chassis. It’s not a perfect fit, but with the metal trim piece you can’t see that.
The heater control is a simple proportional controller since I found the system to be sufficiently damped. I always turn the heater on in pairs of ~full cycles to keep the transformer load balanced. Based on the display, the temperatures stay within -2/+3C, sometimes +4C depending on how small the tip is. I calibrated 3 tips with a thermowell and a knockoff Hakko FG-100. There are minor differences between them, but with actual soldering they all stay within the aforementioned temperature bounds.
With the GUI I can cycle through the presets. The active preset is highlighted and also shown as the set point temperature. I can switch to adjusting the set point temperature manually. A manually-adjusted set point can be saved to a preset, or I can adjust the active preset temperature.
Edit: Sorry, I don't know why some of the images are rotated. They are not rotated on my computer...
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I only ran into two issues with the board. 1st I forgot to measure the heater voltage to calculate power. That was an easy enough bodge with a voltage divider. 2nd I had issues with a negative thermocouple voltage spike (ground bounce?) after the heater turned off. In the attached image you can see how the thermocouple (blue) trace spiked down after the heater (magenta) turns off. It then rises as it returns to normal (see thermocouple trace on the left before heater turns on) as well as from heat transfer from the heater.
To combat this I first increased the capacitance. This resulted in the thermocouple voltage more slowly decreasing, but it would still go lower than it should. I kept increasing the capacitance until I no longer saw the negative blip on the scope, but the temperature readout would still show a 4-6C instantaneous drop, so the negative drop was still there. I went all the way up to 0.1uF and that’s when I saw the voltage started to oscillate. At this point I figured it needed ESR to prevent the oscillations, so I replaced the ceramic with a 0.1uF electrolytic, and poof, the oscillations were gone. Furthermore the 4-6C instantaneous drop was also gone.
Since I really didn’t like the electrolytic there, I put the ceramic back in and added up to 100R of series resistance, but I could never replicate the electrolytic behavior. So that is why the electrolytic is bodged in on top of the thermocouple amplifier section. 0.1uF is more capacitance than I want since it takes 2 cycles for the thermocouple voltage to stabilize, so I would like to find a solution with less capacitance. I don’t consider it to be a debilitating, though. I found 4 off cycles was sufficient for accurate, stable temperature readings, and that allows a control loop up to 20 Hz, which is plenty for a soldering iron.
If I had to do it over again, the changes would mainly be focused on aesthetics. I would make the display centered on the front panel and put the handpiece connector off to the side. I would also use a better display that was edge-to-edge or find a way to cover the edge of the current one. The original design was driven by the constraint of making it fit the OEM chassis and wiring as well as good PCB layout, so some compromises were made.
For mechanical changes I would look into doing the front panel differently. It took some effort and two panels to get the correct bend to match the chassis. Additionally, it was a total PITA to get all of the correct heights for components: display standoff height to be flush with the front panel, extremely tall tactile switches, stock hex standoffs. This was all driven by the handpiece connector height since I used the PCB solder pins. Future versions should just use wire soldered to the PCB to avoid this difficult constraint.
Overall it was a good project that I’m glad I did; I only managed to kill two tips in the process. Let me know if you would like further details on anything in specific.
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Now we just need a multi-channel control board for 2-3 irons? ;D
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Bloody Ripper, it's a Bobby Dazzler!
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Cliff you butchered the aesthetics. How about this with a white on black display.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=790722;image)
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What is different about the original control board which makes calibration unnecessary?
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Obviously with the large display I couldn’t reuse the OEM front panel, so I laser cut a new one. I then heated it and bent it to make it fit the chassis. It’s not a perfect fit, but with the metal trim piece you can’t see that.
Congrats on the mod, lots of work. As you can see from the edited image I did, a couple of tweaks and it would look very tidy, but yeah white on black display for sure with that matte black and grey bezel.
If you ever do a redesign, I think the layout would fit on a single side so perhaps leave it all on the rear side and then add some mounting holes to front mount display, controls and socket on an otherwise unpopulated front side. That way you can add a clear screen protector and be less dependent on component placement for the display fit.
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I thought I’d finally post an update since people have been pm’ing me if I added an LCD to the ADS200 or not. Well yes, I ended up making a replacement control board with an LCD. Of course it took forever since I had to stop all projects for 6+ months to deal with the real world. Images of the final assembly, actual board and Kicad models are attached.
Nice work on your project. Did you do any sort of testing to compare the time it takes to reach temperature, load pickup (Add some thermal load an see how the control loops compare). No doubt you have a lot of bells and whistles, but I wonder performance wise, how it compares.
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Well this is leagues ahead of my half assed attempt! Kudos. Any plans to make it a kit :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What is different about the original control board which makes calibration unnecessary?
Are you talking about calibrations for the different tips? I did calibrate the 3 tips I have, but I found them all to be close enough to each other to not bother trying to have individual calibrations. This is where Pace will definitely outshine mine since they know all the details about the tips. Perhaps they use the 18-bit ADC to figure out what tip it is so they can control it more accurately :-//
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Obviously with the large display I couldn’t reuse the OEM front panel, so I laser cut a new one. I then heated it and bent it to make it fit the chassis. It’s not a perfect fit, but with the metal trim piece you can’t see that.
Congrats on the mod, lots of work. As you can see from the edited image I did, a couple of tweaks and it would look very tidy, but yeah white on black display for sure with that matte black and grey bezel.
If you ever do a redesign, I think the layout would fit on a single side so perhaps leave it all on the rear side and then add some mounting holes to front mount display, controls and socket on an otherwise unpopulated front side. That way you can add a clear screen protector and be less dependent on component placement for the display fit.
I agree that it looks quite nice like that. Finding that type of the display would be key.
Mine is already essentially single sided, but for some reason I didn't think to put the components on the back and only leave the display and connector on the front :palm:
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I thought I’d finally post an update since people have been pm’ing me if I added an LCD to the ADS200 or not. Well yes, I ended up making a replacement control board with an LCD. Of course it took forever since I had to stop all projects for 6+ months to deal with the real world. Images of the final assembly, actual board and Kicad models are attached.
Nice work on your project. Did you do any sort of testing to compare the time it takes to reach temperature, load pickup (Add some thermal load an see how the control loops compare). No doubt you have a lot of bells and whistles, but I wonder performance wise, how it compares.
Yes, I definitely compared how they worked in real world tests. 20C (room temp) to 300C is 4 seconds. I set the standby temp to 150C, so it's ~2s to heat up to 300C taking it out of the stand. For thermal loads it performs the same as OEM, and my findings agree quite well with what Dave showed in his review. The thermocouple doesn't measure any significant temperature drop when trying to solder a large ground plane (converse to the JBC), so you just have to use a higher temperature like Dave. I know some people didn't like that when the review came out, but it doesn't bother me. It was just interesting to see that with the live temperature readout and power meter.
Well this is leagues ahead of my half assed attempt! Kudos. Any plans to make it a kit :)
What did you attempt to do?
I'm not planning on a kit as of now. If I can clean up the aesthetics in version 2, then I would be open to the idea.
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I thought I’d finally post an update since people have been pm’ing me if I added an LCD to the ADS200 or not. Well yes, I ended up making a replacement control board with an LCD. Of course it took forever since I had to stop all projects for 6+ months to deal with the real world. Images of the final assembly, actual board and Kicad models are attached.
Nice work on your project. Did you do any sort of testing to compare the time it takes to reach temperature, load pickup (Add some thermal load an see how the control loops compare). No doubt you have a lot of bells and whistles, but I wonder performance wise, how it compares.
Yes, I definitely compared how they worked in real world tests. 20C (room temp) to 300C is 4 seconds. I set the standby temp to 150C, so it's ~2s to heat up to 300C taking it out of the stand. For thermal loads it performs the same as OEM, and my findings agree quite well with what Dave showed in his review. The thermocouple doesn't measure any significant temperature drop when trying to solder a large ground plane (converse to the JBC), so you just have to use a higher temperature like Dave. I know some people didn't like that when the review came out, but it doesn't bother me. It was just interesting to see that with the live temperature readout and power meter.
Well this is leagues ahead of my half assed attempt! Kudos. Any plans to make it a kit :)
What did you attempt to do?
I'm not planning on a kit as of now. If I can clean up the aesthetics in version 2, then I would be open to the idea.
Take an M5Stack esp32 and bodge it in as an LCD + wifi + bt controller in place of the ancient MCU.
I think it looks pretty good as is frankly. You should sell it to PACE so they can jettison their shoddy excuse for a UI!
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Take an M5Stack esp32 and bodge it in as an LCD + wifi + bt controller in place of the ancient MCU.
I think it looks pretty good as is frankly. You should sell it to PACE so they can jettison their shoddy excuse for a UI!
Have you used the UI or see the 1-4 firmware even? It works and looks perfectly fine. The stock ADS200 is not a gameboy, many manufacturers still sell analog stations without a display. Pace is selling to customers of their previous line of stations which aside from power, performance and the new iron is very similar in operation and appearance. Most customers don't care what MCU it has at the end of the day, these stations are designed for factory floor use and abuse.
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Are you talking about calibrations for the different tips? I did calibrate the 3 tips I have, but I found them all to be close enough to each other to not bother trying to have individual calibrations. This is where Pace will definitely outshine mine since they know all the details about the tips. Perhaps they use the 18-bit ADC to figure out what tip it is so they can control it more accurately :-//
Yes I was wondering why the ADS200 tips don't need calibration. Interesting project. You confirmed that their control loop circuit probably works about as good as it can.
I guess the issue with soldering large ground planes likely has to do with tip design?
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Are you talking about calibrations for the different tips? I did calibrate the 3 tips I have, but I found them all to be close enough to each other to not bother trying to have individual calibrations. This is where Pace will definitely outshine mine since they know all the details about the tips. Perhaps they use the 18-bit ADC to figure out what tip it is so they can control it more accurately :-//
Yes I was wondering why the ADS200 tips don't need calibration. Interesting project. You confirmed that their control loop circuit probably works about as good as it can.
I guess the issue with soldering large ground planes likely has to do with tip design?
I'd say so. I've been told Pace tips have more iron plating than JBC. That should give them longer life but at the cost of decreased heat transfer rate, thus slower thermal response.
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I guess the issue with soldering large ground planes likely has to do with tip design?
For thermal loads it performs the same as OEM, and my findings agree quite well with what Dave showed in his review. The thermocouple doesn't measure any significant temperature drop when trying to solder a large ground plane (converse to the JBC), so you just have to use a higher temperature like Dave. I know some people didn't like that when the review came out, but it doesn't bother me. It was just interesting to see that with the live temperature readout and power meter.
This is not JBC hate for other readers, but as I've mentioned a few times (so it's a bit ad nauseum) that JBCs maximum power profile overshoots. That combined with the less tip plating (or life expectancy depending on how you look at it) and to a small degree their themocouple placement is going to make it appear to solder better in that test scenario. The JBC display in software (as mentioned by others and from my own observation) does not show the station settling to temp so this gives the user the "feeling" of high performance as well.
I'm no expert of thermal dynamics but if you are heating and creating a thermal bridge earlier because of those above factors it has a cumulative effect. That ground plane appeared not to be a challenge to either station in terms of power delivery. If the JBC is running 25C hotter at tip temp every time it heats up due to an aggressive profile it has an advantage. The Pace on the other hand appears to have a more conservative undershooting profile by design. Daves video highlighted those differences.
Does it mean anything, nope. They are both powerful and capable stations. JBC is more expensive in most places and just operates differently, perhaps a better test would be to turn it's profile down so that it doesn't overshoot. But of course it will perform worse, so why bother. Even if you put them on a level playing field the geometries aren't going to be perfect match.
I feel personally Pace has the better technology and iron, making fancy menus is easy compared to engineering accuracy and improving the handpiece design.
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Take an M5Stack esp32 and bodge it in as an LCD + wifi + bt controller in place of the ancient MCU.
I think it looks pretty good as is frankly. You should sell it to PACE so they can jettison their shoddy excuse for a UI!
Have you used the UI or see the 1-4 firmware even? It works and looks perfectly fine. The stock ADS200 is not a gameboy, many manufacturers still sell analog stations without a display. Pace is selling to customers of their previous line of stations which aside from power, performance and the new iron is very similar in operation and appearance. Most customers don't care what MCU it has at the end of the day, these stations are designed for factory floor use and abuse.
Don't make up things I didn't want. A simple lcd and mcu combo is very cheap and can vastly increase the utility of, let's face it, a resistor with a PID loop attached.
For the $200 I dropped, I expect more, like data logging (a friend uses it for debugging pcb assembly issues) and proper programmability. I want automated temp profiling. I want to see more than one number at a time!
It's not 1989 anymore, chief. We can do better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Don't make up things I didn't want. A simple lcd and mcu combo is very cheap and can vastly increase the utility of, let's face it, a resistor with a PID loop attached.
For the $200 I dropped, I expect more, like data logging (a friend uses it for debugging pcb assembly issues) and proper programmability. I want automated temp profiling. I want to see more than one number at a time! It's not 1989 anymore, chief. We can do better.
1989 now that was a good time, I wish I could just go back... (touches ADS200) oh yeaah! :D
But seriously Pace didn't set out to redesign a radically new product. Check out the Pace WJS-100 and ST-50. The Pace ADS200 combines the functionality of those with an improved iron design, bit more speed, accuracy and no calibration when swapping between tips. They also lowered the price by a few hundred dollars.
I know it hurts you to not have every feature under the sun (I can sense the pain it's causing you) but really you are chasing a fairy-tale of your own invention. Likely will never be happy until you work on your own controller, perhaps offer to buy one off mbless or bribe him to add features you want. ;)
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It's not 1989 anymore, chief. We can do better.
Even though I'm on the same boat with you, I'm afraid this was discussed previously in details. There is not much new to say. You'll say you want a better display, I'll say I want an encoder input, a bunch of people will say the station is perfect the way it is for the market they target... It seems there is enough demand for a "soldering brick". I think metcal users will say there is too much UI on this station :).
Nonetheless, the controller is here, now we can build our own variant of the station.
PS still wonder how it performs against t12 clones.
PPS my perception of the station has changed slightly after I found out that Pace is very small company. What if it's sort of small family business? We picture big factories with huge R&D facilities, but what if they have three or four engineers working on the whole line of products? (speculating, I know).
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Don't make up things I didn't want. A simple lcd and mcu combo is very cheap and can vastly increase the utility of, let's face it, a resistor with a PID loop attached.
For the $200 I dropped, I expect more, like data logging (a friend uses it for debugging pcb assembly issues) and proper programmability. I want automated temp profiling. I want to see more than one number at a time! It's not 1989 anymore, chief. We can do better.
1989 now that was a good time, I wish I could just go back... (touches ADS200) oh yeaah! :D
But seriously Pace didn't set out to redesign a radically new product. Check out the Pace WJS-100 and ST-50. The Pace ADS200 combines the functionality of those with an improved iron design, bit more speed, accuracy and no calibration when swapping between tips. They also lowered the price by a few hundred dollars.
I know it hurts you to not have every feature under the sun (I can sense the pain it's causing you) but really you are chasing a fairy-tale of your own invention. Likely will never be happy until you work on your own controller, perhaps offer to buy one off mbless or bribe him to add features you want. ;)
Do you people not read posts? I did I fact offer to buy a kit from mbless!
It's causing me no pain, in fact just suggesting that pace should attempt to compete with jbc, Weller and oki/metcal with adding more than 3 7-segment displays causes people to come out of the woodwork afraid that adding basic features would reduce the purity of their soldering irons so it's not clear who's hurting!
The ts80 folks were able to slap a tiny screen in and an stm32. PACE can do the something similar. They chose not to and also charge the big bucks anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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PS still wonder how it performs against t12 clones.
From what I've seen Pace has the faster heating which is about 3-4 seconds on the smallest tip from room temp to 350C. The Pace tips are also higher powered as designed for a 120W station (Pace 1130 and 1131 series) vs tips designed for a 75W station (T12 aka T15 series).
If you look at the extra mass on the Pace ultra performance tips this acts like a reservoir over the heater. On larger ground planes, larger tip geometries, high demand soldering power comes into play. Speed and mass both help with thermal recovery but power makes up the deficits. So how much power should a tip use? What ever it's rated for. You can over voltage the tip but it will lead to a shorter tip life and likely be harder to regulate.
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Do you people not read posts? I did I fact offer to buy a kit from mbless!
Yeah I read that and his response, he is open to the idea on the V2 model. I was suggesting if you want to play around with his design or suggest new features perhaps make an offer on his V1 pcb and panel.
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I finally sprung for the ADS200. It's looks and feels like tank compared to my old Weller and Hakko irons. Dave was right. It's a "brick dunny".
I was rather surprised how small the hand-piece is. Seems smaller than it appears in photos. About the size of a Sharpie. The cartridge tips are hardly bigger than a Cross pen refill. Definitely a different feel than the old irons. I would recommend the Ultra Performance tips for through-hole soldering and point-to-point wiring work since they're not that large. I only tried it briefly and I haven't done any soldering yet but will in the next few days.
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I finally sprung for the ADS200. It's looks and feels like tank compared to my old Weller and Hakko irons. Dave was right. It's a "brick dunny".
I was rather surprised how small the hand-piece is. Seems smaller than it appears in photos. About the size of a Sharpie. The cartridge tips are hardly bigger than a Cross pen refill. Definitely a different feel than the old irons. I would recommend the Ultra Performance tips for though-hole soldering and point-to-point wiring work since they're not that large. I only tried it briefly and I haven't done any soldering yet but will in the next few days.
Good you got it now. That leaves Santa some extra cash for MT-200 MiniTweez at Christmas! Beta testing's in a few days, so we'll have to get Aaron to send us some pics and pricing.. I'm curious to know if a firmware update will be required though.
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Back in March, I posted about buying the MT-100 MiniTweez for my hobby use. They have been used almost daily. The holder I made for them is working very well. I like it much better than the original ones they come with as it's so much easier to insert them and it's nice having everything on one small holder.
I had gone with wider tips than I would normally use as I wanted to try it with removing SOT23s and such. I also bought some smaller tips like I would normally use but I have yet to install them.
After four months, the biggest mistake I made was not buying them when I first tried them for work. I can't think of a tool I bought in the last year that has saved me so much time. Thanks PACE for making these great products!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-)$239)/msg2291157/#msg2291157
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After four months, the biggest mistake I made was not buying them when I first tried them for work. I can't think of a tool I bought in the last year that has saved me so much time.
Have you used the older TT-65 tweezers? I found one at a hamfest for a really good price and am looking forward to using it.
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After four months, the biggest mistake I made was not buying them when I first tried them for work. I can't think of a tool I bought in the last year that has saved me so much time.
Have you used the older TT-65 tweezers? I found one at a hamfest for a really good price and am looking forward to using it.
I was using these for many years up until now. There are a few problems for me which is why I bought the new set. First, it's like holding two P90 irons in one hand. They are big, bulky and get hot in your hand. They can throw out enough heat to to remove/solder about anything but I was using them more and more for smaller surface mount parts. I bought some finer tips for them which helped some but every time I used the smaller ones at work, I was reminded just how bad they were for the work I am doing. I also only have the one ST45 station, so I had to swap the cables. Even for my hobby work, this was a bit of a pain.
So, very reliable, lots of tips available, pull large ICs without a heat gun.
The MT-100 with the ST50 heats up fast. Seconds. It's so fast to heat, I just turn it off as soon as I am done. The TT-65, well, it takes as long as my P90.
With the MT-100, I can get into places I would have never attempted with the TT-65. I have a lot more hand control with the MT-100 than I ever did with the TT-65.
I'll keep the TT-65 in case I need to do some large part again.
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Are any of the SMD tweeters supported on the ADS200 base?
https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers)
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Are any of the SMD tweeters supported on the ADS200 base?
https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers)
Tweezers for the ADS200 base are supposed to be released any day now...
They should be very much alike MT-100
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Are any of the SMD tweeters supported on the ADS200 base?
https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers)
MT-200 MiniTweez is getting ready for beta test on Sept 1st. If all goes well and no major mods are needed, it will go into production in late Sept. Meaning availability in North America in October. As per your "hand up" reply, when Aaron talked about it earlier, he’ll be sending yours along with the MT-200 SetBack Tool Stand.
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Are beta testing spots still open? .. My ADS200 looks so sad alone .... ^-^
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I'd also be interested in beta testing?
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Are any of the SMD tweeters supported on the ADS200 base?
https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers)
Hi Dave,
Unfortunately, none of the older tweezer handpieces on that page are supported by the ADS200. However, the new MT-200 MiniTweez is being prepared for Beta Testing (sorry guys only 15 units are available and they've already been filled). They go out next week and, if all goes well, we'll go into production in October.
I will be sending you a sample MT-200 along with the MT-200 SetBack Tool Stand when we are sure the bugs are out of the beta models. I wouldn't enjoy watching a video of you tearing PACE a new a-hole because of some production issue that we didn't pick up!! :-DD
Take a look at the latest beta version in the attached image.
Aaron
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Didn't see this earlier, there is a video up as well.
Edit:
Video seems to have been marked private.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNCWdg5cjE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNCWdg5cjE)
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Expected pricing for MT-200 tweezers?
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Hi Dave,
I wouldn't enjoy watching a video of you tearing PACE a new a-hole because of some production issue that we didn't pick up!! :-DD
With as many problems at the 121GW seems to still have after two years, I don't think you have a lot to worry about. :-DD
I like the idea of being able to lock the separation of the tips. It seems like a nice feature.
Are you going to offer a new handset with these same features for the older stations?
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Will we be able to pre-order the MT-200 tweezers when they go into production?
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Is it normal for the tips to come pre-tinned? I just bought an ADS200 and the Chisel tip that I bought with it looks like it's been used while the Conical Sharp tip looks completely clean. Just wondering if that's standard (this is my first nice solder station, sorry for the newb question). Gallery below:
https://imgur.com/a/PNkFXtz
I bought it from Tequipment so I assume they know what they're doing although the packaging for the tips were a bit poor (the tips were just thrown into the larger box that the ADS200 box was placed in, causing both tips to bang around and come out of their plastic housings in shipping).
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Is it normal for the tips to come pre-tinned? I just bought an ADS200 and the Chisel tip that I bought with it looks like it's been used while the Conical Sharp tip looks completely clean. Just wondering if that's standard (this is my first nice solder station, sorry for the newb question). Gallery below:
https://imgur.com/a/PNkFXtz
I bought it from Tequipment so I assume they know what they're doing although the packaging for the tips were a bit poor (the tips were just thrown into the larger box that the ADS200 box was placed in, causing both tips to bang around and come out of their plastic housings in shipping).
I bought my station with several tips including the same large chisel tip. They appeared to be pre-tinned but very clean looking compared to your photos. I didn't particularly like my experience with Tequipment. Had to call back several times to have the discounts & shipping charges straightened out. They have a defensive attitude.
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Is it normal for the tips to come pre-tinned? I just bought an ADS200 and the Chisel tip that I bought with it looks like it's been used while the Conical Sharp tip looks completely clean. Just wondering if that's standard (this is my first nice solder station, sorry for the newb question). Gallery below:
https://imgur.com/a/PNkFXtz
I think Aaron mentioned that they're testing each tip, so I suspect it's factory fresh. But I'm sure he'll chime in.
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Pace tin their tips (some are more obvious than others). That tip though appears to have been powered on for a bit (barrel has light patina which gets darker over time). It seems no fresh solder coat has been applied since it was manufactured. So unused but heated.
I would heat the tip to about 300C/600F and wipe it a few times in brass wool and then immediately apply fresh solder over the entire wettable half of the chisel. Then repeat this several times. If it takes solder and cleans up nice and shiny in brass wool then the tips working perfectly and you're good to go.
This is exactly the same process you should follow on a new tip anyway. Then leave some fresh solder on the tip when you aren't using it.
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Is it normal for the tips to come pre-tinned? I just bought an ADS200 and the Chisel tip that I bought with it looks like it's been used while the Conical Sharp tip looks completely clean. Just wondering if that's standard (this is my first nice solder station, sorry for the newb question). Gallery below:
https://imgur.com/a/PNkFXtz
I bought it from Tequipment so I assume they know what they're doing although the packaging for the tips were a bit poor (the tips were just thrown into the larger box that the ADS200 box was placed in, causing both tips to bang around and come out of their plastic housings in shipping).
Hi Maconi,
Shock is correct. All of PACE Tip-Heater Cartridges are coated with a pure tin coating as standard. Concerning the "used" look of the tip, most tips are quality tested in a fixture that briefly energizes the tip to ensure it is indeed working properly -- this test may discolor the heating element a bit, depending on the amount of time the tip is left in the fixture. The result is varying degrees of coloration depending on whether a particular tip has been tested or not, it's size (we test the larger Ultra-Performance Tips like the one in the image you posted more often) and the duration of it's time being energized during the final test. And I agree, they don't always look pristine ... we'll try to work on that. But the tip performance itself is not in any way degraded.
Concerning the packaging, this is a common complaint about the packaging methods used by Tequipment, one of our authorized distributors. And it will be a point of discussion today when I meet with the Corporate Sales Manager, who is the prime interface with Tequipment.
Thanks for the comments,
Aaron
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Is it normal for the tips to come pre-tinned? I just bought an ADS200 and the Chisel tip that I bought with it looks like it's been used while the Conical Sharp tip looks completely clean. Just wondering if that's standard (this is my first nice solder station, sorry for the newb question). Gallery below:
https://imgur.com/a/PNkFXtz
I bought it from Tequipment so I assume they know what they're doing although the packaging for the tips were a bit poor (the tips were just thrown into the larger box that the ADS200 box was placed in, causing both tips to bang around and come out of their plastic housings in shipping).
Hi Maconi,
Shock is correct. All of PACE Tip-Heater Cartridges are coated with a pure tin coating as standard. Concerning the "used" look of the tip, most tips are quality tested in a fixture that briefly energizes the tip to ensure it is indeed working properly -- this test may discolor the heating element a bit, depending on the amount of time the tip is left in the fixture. The result is varying degrees of coloration depending on whether a particular tip has been tested or not, it's size (we test the larger Ultra-Performance Tips like the one in the image you posted more often) and the duration of it's time being energized during the final test. And I agree, they don't always look pristine ... we'll try to work on that. But the tip performance itself is not in any way degraded.
Concerning the packaging, this is a common complaint about the packaging methods used by Tequipment, one of our authorized distributors. And it will be a point of discussion today when I meet with the Corporate Sales Manager, who is the prime interface with Tequipment.
Thanks for the comments,
Aaron
I noticed the same thing on a couple of large chisel tips I just received. I figured it was due to testing as well as that is what I heard.
Ok, Aaron, I just received my second ADS200 and am waiting for those tweezers. Just giving you a hard time.
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I had waited for all the bugs to be ironed out of the ADS200 before I bought one. I originally spoke to Patrick at Tequipment, who I think was their Pace guy. Very knowledgeable. Was a pleasure to talk with. They said he was not available with when I called with a couple of questions before ordering. Not sure if he changed positions or left the company.
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I had waited for all the bugs to be ironed out of the ADS200 before I bought one. I originally spoke to Patrick at Tequipment, who I think was their Pace guy. Very knowledgeable. Was a pleasure to talk with. They said he was not available with when I called with a couple of questions before I ordering. Not sure if he changed positions or left the company.
Patrick Mullaney is one of the Managers at Tequipment and I think he manages the PACE product line, among others. I'm pretty sure he's still there. I'm surprised you were able to talk to him since Tequipment usually assigns one of their Inside Sales reps to speak to customers. They have a team of people to just answer questions and help with orders. But Patrick would definitely know more about the PACE line than the Inside Sales team.
Aaron
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Is it normal for the tips to come pre-tinned? I just bought an ADS200 and the Chisel tip that I bought with it looks like it's been used while the Conical Sharp tip looks completely clean. Just wondering if that's standard (this is my first nice solder station, sorry for the newb question). Gallery below:
https://imgur.com/a/PNkFXtz
I bought it from Tequipment so I assume they know what they're doing although the packaging for the tips were a bit poor (the tips were just thrown into the larger box that the ADS200 box was placed in, causing both tips to bang around and come out of their plastic housings in shipping).
Thanks for the replies all. I wasn't too worried about it but figured posting wouldn't hurt. It's a huge upgrade over what I've used my whole life (cheap, direct-to-wall irons) so I'm looking forward to playing with it soon. ;D
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Wow, this forum is a heck of a resource. I was at the local electronics store getting some components, and thought I would look at soldering stations. They had the Weber WE1010, but I wasn't sure it would meet my needs, so the research started.
All roads led to this forum and its videos.
I had it down to basically the Hakko FX-951, but this thread and others convinced me to get the Pace ADS200. It's actually cheaper here (Canada, from Accessotronik), is actually on sale with an offer to include two tips, the tips are cheaper, and I personally like an aluminium body. Those were my two front-runners for advanced hobbyist stations.
After many years of soldering (first diploma (CEGEP, for those who know what that is) in the 90s was as an electronics technician, then I worked as a professional mechanic, and am now a software developer. I am also a musician, so lots of cables, pedals, etc), I'm finally going to enjoy something better than just a regular always-on pen (I have several, in many different wattages, including a butane one, which was great on vehicles, just to not have to move a cord).
Hopefully it gets here soon, I just ordered this morning.
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Welcome and Congrats on the new soldering station! I hope I'll have mine forever. Well worth the investment. Definitely better than investing in a cell phone. I'll be using mine to work on PA equipment, old guitar amps and jukeboxes etc.
I've had a Portasol butane iron for over 25 years. I don't use it much anymore but it came in handy when I was doing car audio. It still has the original tip. Always reminded me of trying to light one of those pocket warmers in Boy Scouts. Maybe that's why you were thinking of Weber? ;D
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Doh...I also do a lot of barbecuing, and my main snooker is a Weber kettle converted to a Smokey Mountain-like bullet smoker.
Obviously, that's was a Weller WE1010 I was talking about.
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Wow, this forum is a heck of a resource. I was at the local electronics store getting some components, and thought I would look at soldering stations. They had the Weber WE1010, but I wasn't sure it would meet my needs, so the research started.
All roads led to this forum and its videos.
Welcome, and enjoy your new station.
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A few basic questions, I'm a (new) confused Pace customer and looking for guidance.
I recently acquired a bare Pace MBT301 station and I need help in the direction to go in...
I'm planning to buy various compatible desoldering hand pieces that make use of the MBT301 vacuum port such as the SX-100 Sodr-X-Tractor and etc...
For plain soldering I'm eyeing the compatible TD-100A hand piece and I'm unsure of just how it technically differs from the TD-200? Besides the no calibration needed, what about the thermal recovery and etc...? I've never used the ADS200 + TD200 combo so I have no idea just how it stacks up against a MBT301 + TD-100A
My main fiasco is, maybe it's Dave's awesome ADS200 video and all the marketing behind AccuDrive, but the fork in the road I'm currently at is whether I should invest into the TD-100A hand piece with various needed tips for my MBT301 or is the TD-200 hand piece that much better? I simply don't want to invest in the TD-100A hand piece ecosystem if the ADS200 station along with its TD-200 hand piece is just that much superior? Especially since I just read Pace will soon be selling compatible Microtweezers for the ADS200. I just don't want to start heavily investing into the IntelliHeat ecosystem for hand pieces for my MBT301 if the AccuDrive ecosystem is the future, I want to make the proper decision and not have buyer's regret... Should I spring for the ADS200 + TD-200 and invest into the AccuDrive ecosystem while I solely use my MBT301 station for compatible IntelliHeat hand pieces which make use of a vacuum port? Or will having an additional ADS200 station be almost unneeded redundancy since the TD-100A vs the TD-200 hand piece is identical besides the no calibration needed and I'm better off spending the ADS200 money on IntelliHeat tips and irons for my MBT301?
Sorry for the unorganized thoughts, just trying to best explain my questions.
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The newer MBT301 is an Intelliheat series station which runs the TD100A and all the other existing Intelliheat and Sensatemp handpieces.
The ADS200 is the new Accudrive series single channel station runs the TD200 and upcoming MT200 tweezers. Handpieces are not interchangeable between series. So far only the one station and two tools have been released.
If it was me I would buy the SX100 and TJ70 for your MBT301, and the Pace ADS200 with TD200 and then the MT200 tweezers when out. The cost of the ADS200 station is only about $100 if you factor that into the equation.
The TJ70 I would best describe as precision hot air. It's more convenient than a hot air rework station as it's button or pedal actuated. But not a replacement when it comes to BGA reflow.
So my order or preference for rework would be for the TD200, SX100/MT200, TJ70 handpieces. If you want to stick with a TD100A that is fine too as it's still a very good handpiece, but the TD200 on the Accudrive station has superior power, accuracy and utilizes the Accudrive calibration free technology.
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The TD100A and TD200 handpieces appear to be identical except for the color. Do they have differences? Connectors etc.?
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The TD100A and TD200 handpieces appear to be identical except for the color. Do they have differences? Connectors etc.?
Yeah the cable connectors to the station are different for a start. The TD100A takes the older series cartridges 1124, 1126 (and 1128 if you are using a WJS100 station). The TD200 uses the new 1130 and 1131 series. The different series cartridges have black, gold and blue connectors at the back so are easy to tell apart.
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So my order or preference for rework would be for the TD200, SX100/MT200, TJ70 handpieces. If you want to stick with a TD100A that is fine too as it's still a very good handpiece, but the TD200 on the Accudrive station has superior power, accuracy and utilizes the Accudrive calibration free technology.
Thanks for the input, I have some decision making to be done.
Do you have experience with the TJ-70 vs TJ-85? What are the varying use cases?
And just some food thought, would you consider selling your MBT301 station to replace it with a PPS400 station for basically the same cost? To be more specific, it seems like if I get the ADS200 + TD200, my MBT301 would be relegated to SenaTemp hand pieces anyway which is what the PPS400 supports as well as some additional support for Piks, ResiTweezers, and MicroChine and etc..
Or is the PPS400 just highly inferior antique compared to the MBT301? I was looking at PPS400 PCB photos and I see it's an older based design with all through hole components but I don't want to judge a book by it's cover. Yet it seems PPS400 supports basically identical hand pieces as the MBT301 with the only difference being the different connector (SensaTemp vs IntelliTemp)? Especially when I noticed the MBT301 accepts SensaTemp hand pieces with a gender bender adapter. If the PPS400 and MBT301 basically use the same hand pieces would the PPS400 not be the better choice?
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I was assuming you brought the Intelliheat version of the MBT301? I believe I chose the TJ-70 over the TJ-85 at the time due to tip selection and that it is hand actuated, possibly power as well I cannot remember. I haven't used the TJ-85.
Can't help with the differences in the Sensatemp vs Intelliheat versions. I typically look at spare parts in that situation though as it reveals different heaters etc. But that would be a good question for Pace.
Yeah the PPS400 might be a better option for you then especially if you want to collect all the tools. I wouldn't let the retro look put you off it's part of the charm, I'd probably own one myself if I was in the US.
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The TD100A and TD200 handpieces appear to be identical except for the color. Do they have differences? Connectors etc.?
Yeah the cable connectors to the station are different for a start. The TD100A takes the older series cartridges 1124, 1126 (and 1128 if you are using a WJS100 station). The TD200 uses the new 1130 and 1131 series. The different series cartridges have black, gold and blue connectors at the back so are easy to tell apart.
As always, a great explanation by Shock. Just to add a bit of info, the IntelliHeat-compatible tip cartridges that begin with part numbers "1124" & "1126" run on 16 VAC, while the newer AccuDrive tips that start with "1130" & "1131" run on 21 VAC. That is the main reason IntelliHeat tips are not compatible with AccuDrive tips. While AccuDrive tips look almost identical to the IntelliHeat tips, internally they also use completely different sensor technology, heater wire and assembly procedures, all of which contribute to the lack in compatibility. Believe me, I would have loved it if our engineers came up with a method of making all things compatible. Right now, it's completely confusing to our customers. But in the interest of improving products (e.g. increasing temperature accuracy), we made the decision to modernize.
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After many years of soldering (first diploma (CEGEP, for those who know what that is) in the 90s was as an electronics technician, t
Montrealer here, also went to CEGEP in the late 90s at Teccart. You?
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Thank you Shock and PACE-Worldwide for the assistance
I was assuming you brought the Intelliheat version of the MBT301? I believe I chose the TJ-70 over the TJ-85 at the time due to tip selection and that it is hand actuated, possibly power as well I cannot remember. I haven't used the TJ-85.
Yes, I do have an IntelliHeat MBT301. BUT, unless I am mistaken the only difference between the SX-100 and TJ-70 IntelliHeat vs SX-100 and TJ-70 SensaTemp hand pieces seem to be only a different styled connector without any other technical difference? Especially when you can use the Pace Gender Bender adapter to use "black connector" (SensaTemp) hand pieces on "blue connector" (IntelliHeat) stations.
As I understand, the description for IntelliHeat is basically defined as a station which can use SenaTemp and tip-heater (TD-100/TD-100A) hand pieces. So unless I'm mistaken (please let me know your opinion) since I'm now looking at buying the ADS200 and TD-200 as its superior over the TD-100A it seems almost pointless to my situation to invest in IntelliHeat SX-100 & TJ-70 hand pieces if I can use the same exact SenaSemp hand pieces on a much cheaper SensaTemp station? Basically the IntelliHeat SX-100 and TJ-70 hand pieces appear to be technically identical to their TX-100 and TJ-70 SensaTemp hand piece counterparts besides having the proper end connector. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Basically, why use an expansive MBT301 station for SX-100 and TJ-100 handpieces if I can achieve an identical result on a cheaper SensaTemp station - with the PPS400 specifically in mind?
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Do you have experience with the TJ-70 vs TJ-85? What are the varying use cases?
And just some food thought, would you consider selling your MBT301 station to replace it with a PPS400 station for basically the same cost? To be more specific, it seems like if I get the ADS200 + TD200, my MBT301 would be relegated to SenaTemp hand pieces anyway which is what the PPS400 supports as well as some additional support for Piks, ResiTweezers, and MicroChine and etc..
Or is the PPS400 just highly inferior antique compared to the MBT301? I was looking at PPS400 PCB photos and I see it's an older based design with all through hole components but I don't want to judge a book by it's cover. Yet it seems PPS400 supports basically identical hand pieces as the MBT301 with the only difference being the different connector (SensaTemp vs IntelliTemp)? Especially when I noticed the MBT301 accepts SensaTemp hand pieces with a gender bender adapter. If the PPS400 and MBT301 basically use the same hand pieces would the PPS400 not be the better choice?
Hi Neo,
The TJ-70 ThermoJet is an 80 Watt hot-air handpiece that was designed in the early 90's for removal of small chips, for soldering of SOICs and QFPs using solder paste and for removal/softening of conformal coatings. It works well when used with 60/40 or 37/63 leaded solder. It works with lead-free solder but with only 80 Watts of power available, it has a limited range of use if you are using lead-free alloys. I can't with a clear conscience recommend the TJ-85 ... it is under-powered and I'd bet about 65% of the users feel that it's performance is lack-luster. Just keeping it real!
The PRC 2000 (aka PPS-400) is a legendary military workhorse rework station that we mainly sell to the US Military and defense forces from many other countries. I wouldn't call it a highly inferior antique as it is quite capable of just about any physical pcb repair except maybe BGA rework. Its PPS-400 Power Supply seems to last forever and the system's quality, reliability, longevity, durability and sustainability have been proven: Most of the PRC 2000s that have been sold since 1996 are still functioning! That's why you see so many available on ebay. They're old but still supportable. That being said, the operation of the PRC 2000 is not what I would call user-friendly. Your MBT 301 is much easier to use in that regard.
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Yes, I do have an IntelliHeat MBT301. BUT, unless I am mistaken the only difference between the SX-100 and TJ-70 IntelliHeat vs SX-100 and TJ-70 SensaTemp hand pieces seem to be only a different styled connector without any other technical difference? Especially when you can use the Pace Gender Bender adapter to use "black connector" (SensaTemp) hand pieces on "blue connector" (IntelliHeat) stations.
As I understand, the description for IntelliHeat is basically defined as a station which can use SenaTemp and tip-heater (TD-100/TD-100A) hand pieces. So unless I'm mistaken (please let me know your opinion) since I'm now looking at buying the ADS200 and TD-200 as its superior over the TD-100A it seems almost pointless to my situation to invest in IntelliHeat SX-100 & TJ-70 hand pieces if I can use the same exact SenaSemp hand pieces on a much cheaper SensaTemp station? Basically the IntelliHeat SX-100 and TJ-70 hand pieces appear to be technically identical to their TX-100 and TJ-70 SensaTemp hand piece counterparts besides having the proper end connector. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Neo,
You are absolutely correct about the difference between the SensaTemp and IntelliHeat handpieces. The only difference is the connector. Both are Amphenol connectors with differing pin configurations.
This is complicated. SensaTemp was developed in the early 90's for the PRC2000/MBT250/MBT201/MBT101 series of stations. All SensaTemp heaters are constructed using a high-mass internal brass bobbin that is wound with resistance wire that is controlled by a platinum RTD sensor in the front of the heater. A soldering or desoldering tip is then inserted into the heater. While this style of handpiece is extremely powerful, accurate (at the sensor level) and has a great reservoir of power, it usually takes about 2 minutes to completely heat stabilize. In the early 2000s we developed a new fast heat-up, tip-heater cartridge technology we called IntelliHeat. By combining the tip with the heater, we achieved set temperatures in 4-10 seconds and fast & easy tip change-out within 4 seconds, without turning the unit off and without set-screws (I hate set-screws). With this newer technology, we developed a truly ergonomic soldering iron (TD-100), a decent Thermal Tweezer (MT-100) and several other handpieces.
We incorporate both SensaTemp and IntelliHeat technologies into our more current soldering/desoldering/rework stations like the ST-50, ST 75, ST 115, MBT301 and MBT350. Unfortunately, we have to change from the original SensaTemp pin configuration (black connector) to an IntelliHeat (dark blue connector) version. Meaning there are 2 different versions of the same SensaTemp-style handpieces like SX-100 Sodr-X-Tractor, PS-90 Soldering Iron, TT-65 ThermoTweez, TJ-70 ThermoJet and TJ-85 (ugh) ThermoJet handpieces. This way, the power supply can distinguish between the SensaTemp and IntelliHeat handpieces by its pin configuration, but customers frequently buy the wrong handpiece (e.g buy an IntelliHeat SX-100 with blue connector for an MBT-250 ... it won't fit).
Aaron
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Neo,
You are absolutely correct about the difference between the SensaTemp and IntelliHeat handpieces. The only difference is the connector. Both are Amphenol connectors with differing pin configurations.
This is complicated. SensaTemp was developed in the early 90's for the PRC2000/MBT250/MBT201/MBT101 series of stations. All SensaTemp heaters are constructed using a high-mass internal brass bobbin that is wound with resistance wire that is controlled by a platinum RTD sensor in the front of the heater. A soldering or desoldering tip is then inserted into the heater. While this style of handpiece is extremely powerful, accurate (at the sensor level) and has a great reservoir of power, it usually takes about 2 minutes to completely heat stabilize. In the early 2000s we developed a new fast heat-up, tip-heater cartridge technology we called IntelliHeat. By combining the tip with the heater, we achieved set temperatures in 4-10 seconds and fast & easy tip change-out within 4 seconds, without turning the unit off and without set-screws (I hate set-screws). With this newer technology, we developed a truly ergonomic soldering iron (TD-100), a decent Thermal Tweezer (MT-100) and several other handpieces.
We incorporate both SensaTemp and IntelliHeat technologies into our more current soldering/desoldering/rework stations like the ST-50, ST 75, ST 115, MBT301 and MBT350. Unfortunately, we have to change from the original SensaTemp pin configuration (black connector) to an IntelliHeat (dark blue connector) version. Meaning there are 2 different versions of the same SensaTemp-style handpieces like SX-100 Sodr-X-Tractor, PS-90 Soldering Iron, TT-65 ThermoTweez, TJ-70 ThermoJet and TJ-85 (ugh) ThermoJet handpieces. This way, the power supply can distinguish between the SensaTemp and IntelliHeat handpieces by its pin configuration, but customers frequently buy the wrong handpiece (e.g buy an IntelliHeat SX-100 with blue connector for an MBT-250 ... it won't fit).
Aaron
Thanks Aaron,
Hard to find this level of answers these days, I can see you have a legitimate passion in your work. I'm used to getting scripted template responses from support. Hate to keep pestering you with questions, but I a have left.
1) What's the difference between the SX-100 and SX-90 hand pieces? I see they both take the same replacement parts and tips.
2) I saw the offered firmware updates for the ADS200. If I'd like to update my MBT301 firmware how should I proceed?
3) Maybe I overlooked it, but I found TD-200 hand piece has a limited selection regarding SMT & specialty tips compared to TD100? To be specific, I was looking to purchase a TSOP specialty tip but there are none for the TD-200 iron as compared to several SMT TSOP tips for TD100. These are quite important to me.
4) Are IntelliHeat hand pieces backwards compatible with with the ADS200 AccuDrive station?
Also, any more specific estimates on when the MT-200 hand piece will be available?
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1) What's the difference between the SX-100 and SX-90 hand pieces? I see they both take the same replacement parts and tips.
2) I saw the offered firmware updates for the ADS200. If I'd like to update my MBT301 firmware how should I proceed?
3) Maybe I overlooked it, but I found TD-200 hand piece has a limited selection regarding SMT & specialty tips compared to TD100? To be specific, I was looking to purchase a TSOP specialty tip but there are none for the TD-200 iron as compared to several SMT TSOP tips for TD100. These are quite important to me.
4) Are IntelliHeat hand pieces backwards compatible with with the ADS200 AccuDrive station?
Also, any more specific estimates on when the MT-200 hand piece will be available?
No problem Neo. Here goes:
1) What's the difference between the SX-100 and SX-90 hand pieces? I see they both take the same replacement parts and tips.
The SX-100 & SX-90 are almost identical in all aspects except for some tooling/mold changes that were made to make the various plastic parts fit better. The only way a customer might distinguish the difference is the SX-90 has blue markings on the finger switch and sides, while the SX-100 has white markings. So from the customer end, there is zero difference other than the color accent changes.
2) I saw the offered firmware updates for the ADS200. If I'd like to update my MBT301 firmware how should I proceed?
There have been no firmware updates in over 10 or 11 years, so none are available at the moment. For the ADS200, the "1-4" firmware revision is the latest and available (no charge) by sending us a note at support@paceworldwide.com.
3) Maybe I overlooked it, but I found TD-200 hand piece has a limited selection regarding SMT & specialty tips compared to TD100? To be specific, I was looking to purchase a TSOP specialty tip but there are none for the TD-200 iron as compared to several SMT TSOP tips for TD100. These are quite important to me.
There are 60 tips now available for the TD-200 and more will be coming. I've attached a US Price List with the current set of tips and accessories. I doubt we are going to introduce a set of TSOP tips in the near future simply because the sales of those tips have dropped off precipitously, probably because TSOP removals are usually handled by a Thermal Tweezer (also see update to upcoming MT-200 MiniTweez Thermal Tweezer).
4) Are IntelliHeat hand pieces backwards compatible with the ADS200 AccuDrive station?
Unfortunately not. AccuDrive handpieces sport a different connector [... sigh ...]. In order to obtain the higher power -- up to 120 Watts depending on the tip for AccuDrive 1130 & 1131 tips, versus the 60 Watt 1124 & 1126 IntelliHeat tip cartridges -- we had to make a change from 16 VAC (IntelliHeat) to 21 VAC (AccuDrive). Thus, IntelliHeat tips can be inserted into an AccuDrive handpiece and "work" for several minutes before they burn up! [another sigh ...]
Also, any more specific estimates on when the MT-200 hand piece will be available?
We just finished Beta Testing of the MT-200 MiniTweez Thermal Tweezer and found we had to tweak a few items. Minor engineering changes were made which delay the launch until January, but the results of the Beta test were really encouraging: Most beta test scores averaged at a "9" out of "10" for performance, ergonomics and control of the handpiece! The MT-200 handpiece will come with an ISB (Instant SetBack) Tool Stand which plugs into the back of the ADS200 and a set of 13 tip-heater cartridges will be available at launch. No pricing as of yet as we are still examining the costs. It's definitely an expensive handpiece to manufacture, much more than it's predecessor the MT-100! For those of you going to Productronica in Munich on 12-14 November, we'll have a sample MT-200 for demonstration -- go to Factronix GmbH Booth (one of our German distributors) in Hall A, Booth 500 to find PACE.
Hope this helps!
Aaron
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Montrealer here, also went to CEGEP in the late 90s at Teccart. You?
Early 90s, and Maisonneuve (Electrotechnique, as it was called at the time!)
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So glad to get great answers here. Here's another dumb question...
I was investigating why my ADS200 hadn't shipped yet. Apparently, one of the tips I ordered (the 1131-0051-P1) isn't in stock (even though it shows in stock on their site. Would also have been nice of them to notify me instead of me having to email them). I ordered two of the Ultra-Performance series tips (because...why not?)
What is the actual difference between the standard blue series tips and the ultra-performance blue series tips? The Pace website really doesn't seem to explain it, unless I'm missing it.
In the meantime, I'll see if they have the 1131-0013-P1 instead. It's almost the same, but a 3/32" chisel instead of 1/8"! I just figure a chisel point for general work and a conical point (I ordered the 1131-0001-P1 as well) for finer stuff should cover most of my needs.
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I would go with Dave's recommendation of using ultra performance tips unless you're soldering very fine parts. I think the tips look smaller in person than they appear in pictures. Ultra performance tips have more thermal mass in the tip for a more steady temperature and less PID lag time when soldering larger components. I would describe it as a flywheel effect.
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So glad to get great answers here. Here's another dumb question...
I was investigating why my ADS200 hadn't shipped yet. Apparently, one of the tips I ordered (the 1131-0051-P1) isn't in stock (even though it shows in stock on their site. Would also have been nice of them to notify me instead of me having to email them). I ordered two of the Ultra-Performance series tips (because...why not?)
What is the actual difference between the standard blue series tips and the ultra-performance blue series tips? The Pace website really doesn't seem to explain it, unless I'm missing it.
In the meantime, I'll see if they have the 1131-0013-P1 instead. It's almost the same, but a 3/32" chisel instead of 1/8"! I just figure a chisel point for general work and a conical point (I ordered the 1131-0001-P1 as well) for finer stuff should cover most of my needs.
Hi Philb,
labjr is correct. The only difference between the standard AccuDrive Blue Series Tips and the Ultra-Performance Tips is the the higher mass of the tips. The tips use the same amount of wattage but because they are thicker, and have a more optimized shape, the thermal pipeline in improved, resulting in better heat throughput. This is especially important if you have heat-sinking, multilayered, high mass pcb assemblies. If you are not working with tough, heat sinking boards and components, I would stick with the standard tip cartridges, which cost a bit less.
Aaron
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Sounds good to me. It appears they have the 1131-0013-P1 in stock, so I told them to give me that instead.
Thanks for the info, as a consumer, it should probably be on the Pace website!
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Thanks for the info, as a consumer, it should probably be on the Pace website!
It's breifly mentioned in the brochure. Pace has been in the middle of redesigning their website. I didn't realize it was up, looks good.
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It's a pity paceworldwide doesn't actually sell worldwide ! :popcorn:
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Thanks for the info, as a consumer, it should probably be on the Pace website!
It's breifly mentioned in the brochure. Pace has been in the middle of redesigning their website. I didn't realize it was up, looks good. https://paceworldwide.com (https://paceworldwide.com)
The old one is still at https://www.paceworldwide.com (https://www.paceworldwide.com)
Yes, after months of delay, we finally put up our new website! It's not 100% yet, and we only list about 700 products out of 1600, but by the end of this year, we should have everything listed. Please feel free to review the new site. I'm especially interested in finding various glitches that you may find.
The new site also displays list pricing based on your IP address, so Europeans should see prices in Euro, UK residents should see £, and US/Canada should see US$. IN Asia/Australia, it should should our export list pricing (slightly higher pricing) in USD. Can some of you in Europe, UK and Australia confirm?
Thanks all!
Aaron
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I looked last night at the ADS200 and it showed a list price of USD $0. It even let me add it to the shopping cart at that price, but I wasn't cheeky enough to click through to final checkout. Perhaps I should have :)
Aaron, just to clarify - is it Pace's intention that international buyers would be able to buy direct from the paceworldwide site at the appropriate export list pricing ??
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I looked last night at the ADS200 and it showed a list price of USD $0. It even let me add it to the shopping cart at that price, but I wasn't cheeky enough to click through to final checkout. Perhaps I should have :)
Aaron, just to clarify - is it Pace's intention that international buyers would be able to buy direct from the paceworldwide site at the appropriate export list pricing ??
Shock had informed me of this problem early today. The pricing glitch is one that PACE made because we forgot to insert the export pricing for all ADS200 units & tips. My bad! The real prices should be up by tomorrow. Also, since our website commerce section is not automated, if you ordered the zero price item, someone from our Sales Administration would put a kibosh on the order. When you order through the website, a message is sent to our Sales team and they immediately enter the order, so they would get back to the customer right away about a $0 order.
It is PACE's intention that customers have the ability to buy direct, but that capability was always available with our old site. It was just a super hassle because we forced you to register, then jump through hoops to actually buy. It will be a lot easier with our new site, without the need to register. I still recommend you purchase via your local distributor. Keep in mind while direct pricing may seem less, Australians will have still have to contend with exorbitant shipping, customs/duty costs as well as the significant amount of time in transit and customs delays -- these issues are taken care of by your local Australian distributors. A few months ago, I received an irate email from an Australian customer who was shocked that the shipping cost was more than the ADS200 price. After purchase, the unit took about 4 weeks to receive, partially because of a customs hold-up. You avoid this if you buy locally.
Thanks for the feedback!
Aaron
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The website looks really good on my screen, nice clean simple layout. The "contains" and "works with" sections work quite well for your products as there are many options. It seemed very easy to find products and get an order started, I like it. Pass my complements to the chef. Well done.
Recently I became the owner of a new looking Pace Arm Evac 105E Fume Extractor (https://www.paceworldwide.com/arm-evac-105-fume-extractor) from a liquidated business. It was sitting without the hose like in the image and my wife just saw it for the first time and said "ahh new toy" then slowly to herself "pace arm fume extractor, ooh". :-+
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-fume-extraction-sucks/?action=dlattach;attach=857446;image)
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I would be very careful about getting pricing right. You definitely don't want to go and do a cole and palmer!
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Yesterday I ordered a ADS200 Soldering Station direct from Pace and was able to get slow ground delivery from ? to Canada for $35US. Then I selected several tips for this new soldering iron, and when I went to the check out, the cheapest gound shipping was a couple of dollars under $400, nearly 4 times the price of the order. Does anyone have any idea why the shipping on the soldering iron tips is over 10 times the shipping price of the soldering station itself?
The faster shipping methods were so ridiculously expensive that I LOL for several minutes after seeing them. The overnight rate was nearly $5000.00US How many customers do they have using this???
Is this a bait and switch type situation? We'll send you the station for a reasonable price, but now that we have you, ha ha, we will drain you for the tips?
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Is this a bait and switch type situation? We'll send you the station for a reasonable price, but now that we have you, ha ha, we will drain you for the tips?
Well, before jumping to conclusions, without more information it might be more helpful to assume Hanlon's razor. Why not first ask Pace what's up?
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Is this a bait and switch type situation? We'll send you the station for a reasonable price, but now that we have you, ha ha, we will drain you for the tips?
Well, before jumping to conclusions, without more information it might be more helpful to assume Hanlon's razor. Why not first ask Pace what's up?
Inquiry was sent 2 days ago, waiting....
In the mean time, they have processed my order for the station, but no word on the tip shipping. waiting...
Posted this here, just to check if others are seeing the same thing.
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Yesterday I ordered a ADS200 Soldering Station direct from Pace and was able to get slow ground delivery from ? to Canada for $35US. Then I selected several tips for this new soldering iron, and when I went to the check out, the cheapest gound shipping was a couple of dollars under $400, nearly 4 times the price of the order. Does anyone have any idea why the shipping on the soldering iron tips is over 10 times the shipping price of the soldering station itself?
The faster shipping methods were so ridiculously expensive that I LOL for several minutes after seeing them. The overnight rate was nearly $5000.00US How many customers do they have using this???
Is this a bait and switch type situation? We'll send you the station for a reasonable price, but now that we have you, ha ha, we will drain you for the tips?
Hi mcconkeyb,
We did indeed receive your first order, but we noticed there was several glitches in the checkout process. For one, the order generated did not show part numbers. And you found just another anomaly in the shipping process! We're working on it and will get back to you soon.
Aaron
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Inquiry was sent 2 days ago, waiting....
In the mean time, they have processed my order for the station, but no word on the tip shipping. waiting...
Posted this here, just to check if others are seeing the same thing.
The first I heard of this tip shipping situation was here in EEVBlog a few minutes ago! So I've reported it and we'll try to rectify it as soon as we can. We appreciate your feedback and hope you'll keep us informed if you find any other issues with the new site.
Aaron
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RE: New PACE Website
By the way, another glitch has surfaced: Many of you probably cannot access the new website. For some reason, Many people in the US can only link to the old website. It seems that the new site is slowwwwwlly downloaded to various servers around the world, but is taking it's good old time in many areas. For example people in Boston Mass only see the old site, but in UK and Australia, they can access the new! Believe it or not, I cannot enter the new site at the office in Maryland, but I can access it in Virginia, where I live! This is extremely frustrating for us at PACE as well as our customers. Just want you to be aware of the situation so you're not confused.
Aaron
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People seeing the old website is quite common when making changes. Takes a while sometimes for the servers to update entries and cached pages. You generally figure out all the customers who have caching or dns problems as the old page loads but the dynamic content (such as ordering) is broken.
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RE: New PACE Website
By the way, another glitch has surfaced: Many of you probably cannot access the new website. For some reason, Many people in the US can only link to the old website. It seems that the new site is slowwwwwlly downloaded to various servers around the world, but is taking it's good old time in many areas. For example people in Boston Mass only see the old site, but in UK and Australia, they can access the new! Believe it or not, I cannot enter the new site at the office in Maryland, but I can access it in Virginia, where I live! This is extremely frustrating for us at PACE as well as our customers. Just want you to be aware of the situation so you're not confused.
Aaron
Thanks Aaron for the update. I got a message on my telephone from PACE, but its hard to return calls during business hours, if you could have your colleges use my email that would be very helpful! Hopefully that part of the order processing works. Cheers, Brian
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The new site also displays list pricing based on your IP address, so Europeans should see prices in Euro, UK residents should see £, and US/Canada should see US$. IN Asia/Australia, it should should our export list pricing (slightly higher pricing) in USD. Can some of you in Europe, UK and Australia confirm?
Hi Aaron. How does this work if I'm in Asia, but would want to purchase a station shipped to a US address? Where I live there's a lot of us who handle the shipping and import fees ourselves because local prices are regularly quite insane.
And... a more general question for existing users (but probably particularly Shock ;D): Would it make sense to consider getting an ADS200 when I already have a Metcal MX-500? (For personal use.) I love my Metcal. It's a joy to use comming from Wellers at work I've used in the past, but I've found on some boards I do with any kind of larger ground plane, I struggle with getting enough heat to the joint. I actually have a repair job which I've put aside indefinitely because I can't solder the SMT inductor in place. Granted I could try to pick up a bigger tip, or a higher temperature rated one, but the one frustrating thing about the Metcal is it needs a different tip for a different temperature, there's no fine control, and those tips aren't cheap (while I am... budget conscious). It probably doesn't help that the MX-500 is only rated at 40W.
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And... a more general question for existing users (but probably particularly Shock ;D): Would it make sense to consider getting an ADS200 when I already have a Metcal MX-500? (For personal use.) I love my Metcal. It's a joy to use coming from Wellers at work I've used in the past, but I've found on some boards I do with any kind of larger ground plane, I struggle with getting enough heat to the joint. I actually have a repair job which I've put aside indefinitely because I can't solder the SMT inductor in place. Granted I could try to pick up a bigger tip, or a higher temperature rated one, but the one frustrating thing about the Metcal is it needs a different tip for a different temperature, there's no fine control, and those tips aren't cheap (while I am... budget conscious). It probably doesn't help that the MX-500 is only rated at 40W.
From others observations the MX-500 40W apparently has similar performance to the FX-951 which is 70W.
The obvious advantage of temp adjustable is you can turn up the heat for the application. As for buying another soldering station, I don't see that as a problem. Most people end up doing this anyway when they upgrade. The tip tool also that comes with the Pace is better than a silicon pad for removing tips.
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The obvious advantage of temp adjustable is you can turn up the heat for the application. As for buying another soldering station, I don't see that as a problem. Most people end up doing this anyway when they upgrade. The tip tool also that comes with the Pace is better than a silicon pad for removing tips.
Hmm, would you consider the ADS200 to be an upgrade over the MX-500 then? My hope is that with the appropriate tip and set temp I'd have an easier time with ground planes and the like.
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Hmm, would you consider the ADS200 to be an upgrade over the MX-500 then? My hope is that with the appropriate tip and set temp I'd have an easier time with ground planes and the like.
An upgrade in every way but you cannot overcome physics, there is a wall. The only way to deliver more heat into the joint with just an iron alone (aside from prep cleaning and flux), is a larger tip providing more contact, higher temp and more power available to recover losses. I assume the heating efficiency of the MX-500 40W is not three times its power rating, so similar to FX-951 70W does make sense. If I was presented with buying both stations new and even if the MX-500 had similar performance as the ADS200 I'd go with the ADS200 due to the price/operating costs, temp flexibility and aluminum handpiece.
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.. I'd go with the ADS200 due to the price/operating costs, temp flexibility and aluminum handpiece.
This sums it up very nicely.
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Keep in mind, the ADS200 heats up in half the time of the FX-951. I imagine it also recovers from thermal loads better.
While SMT has placed new demands of soldering stations to do precision work without damaging components and PCBs, I'm not expecting a product that will weld a trailer hitch at 400F with 20 watts of power.
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Announcement from PACE:
We are in the process of reverting the new paceworldwide.com website back to the old version of the site because of major issues with the ordering and search functions. This may take a few days to revert back to the original site, so you may still see the new site for a while, depending on your location. The site will re-launch in the near future.
If you have ordered anything from the new version of the PACE website, all orders have been entered and are in-process, but they may not show up in your account. Please feel free to contact me directly at acaplan@paceworldwide.com if you have any concerns or questions.
Thanks for your patience in this matter.
Best,
Aaron
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I purchased an ADS200, MBT350, and various hand pieces.
I'm curious of the technical differences for MBT350 firmware versions 2.6 and lower vs 2.7 and higher? Wish there was a change log available publicly for firmware revisions for all base stations.
P.S. Glad the old site is back - the new site was severely limiting, I couldn't find anything on it.
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I purchased an ADS200, MBT350, and various hand pieces.
Congrats, what ended up happening to the MBT301?
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I purchased an ADS200, MBT350, and various hand pieces.
Congrats, what ended up happening to the MBT301?
Found a great deal on a MBT350 I couldn't avoid. The MBT301 found a loving new home with a friend.
Thanks again for the help you provided earlier
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I'm curious of the technical differences for MBT350 firmware versions 2.6 and lower vs 2.7 and higher? Wish there was a change log available publicly for firmware revisions for all base stations.
P.S. Glad the old site is back - the new site was severely limiting, I couldn't find anything on it.
Hi Neo,
We have both versions 2.6 & and 2.7 set-up in our classroom which features 12 MBT 350s. I'll have to confirm this with Engineering, but I believe the main difference in the firmware is that Rev 2.7 allows you to set the individual temperature range limits on each channel. On Rev 2.6, you can only set a general temperature range for all 3 channels. Thus in Rev 2.7, you might set Channel 1 for a range of 500°-900°F (to accommodate the TJ-70 ThermoJet Hot Air Handpiece, which requires 900°F to work properly); Channel 2 for 500°-750°F (for the TD-100 Soldering Iron, to ensure you don't overheat components or damage sensitive substrates); and set Channel 3 to 500°-800° (for use with the SX-100 Sodr-X-Tractor Desoldering Iron). In Rev 2.6, you can only set the overall temperatures for all 3 channels. Thus if you set a temperature range from 600°-800°F, all 3 channels will have this temperature range.
It's probably been 9 years since this last MBT 350 firmware change occurred. It is unusual for us to issue firmware revisions unless customers come to PACE with software glitches, which often occur at the very beginning of the products life-cycle -- witness the rapid succession of firmware revisions on the ADS200. When first launched, the ADS200 required a host of little improvements, many suggested by members of EEVBlog. When customers come to us with comments and suggestions that improve a feature or make the unit easier to use, that may spur a revision. But once the firmware is tweaked and perfected, you get to point where firmware changes stop occurring.
Aaron
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Yes looking at the two different manuals, the later firmware has channel selectable low/high limits. The other thing added to the newer manual looks like an option to config block the user changing offsets.
https://draftable.com/compare/YRwvnPKSUdMX
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Thanks for the answers Shock and PACE-Worldwide. Unfortunately my MBT350 is on firmware 2.4 without the added bells and whistles.
My order for a new style SX stand and tip holder came in today from tequipment, luckily I got the last in stock. But, I am disappointed by the QC. Not sure if this is worth the hassles of exchanging, especially when there is no current stock available. The SX/TJ stands come new disassembled in box, by the location of paint chip damage and how this heavy stand is packaged it's evident the disassembled pieces were striking each other in transit, especially with very minimal internal shipping padding present to preventing this inside the product box itself (not tequipment shipping box, they used generous padding). If I'm not mistaken, this looks like high temperature paint. I would suggest this an ideal use case for a a powder coating paint process, a superbly durable finish.
(https://i.ibb.co/ThLsvgS/Pace-SX100-Stand-Defective-2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXSVpVK/Pace-SX100-Stand-Defective.jpg)
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Those two firmware features are more for use in a production environment where people soldering way under temp or over temp is a problem, I never use them.
The stand will eventually get wear anyway so it's not so much a big deal, could always touch it up with some paint if you have some handy. Both spots will be obscured from vision most of the time. The stands have a kind of a futuristic utilitarian vibe anyway, a bit of wear doesn't look out of place.
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I know what you mean, but on the other hand opening a brand new box of $75 stand with missing paint doesn't necessarily make me think it's "a bit of wear that won't look out of place"
I tend to take care of my tools, call me pedantic but this is the type of stuff that remains in the back of head even if it's not facing me.
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I know what you mean, but on the other hand opening a brand new box of $75 stand with missing paint doesn't necessarily make me think it's "a bit of wear that won't look out of place"
I tend to take care of my tools, call me pedantic but this is the type of stuff that remains in the back of head even if it's not facing me.
Hi Neo,
Send me your mailing address by EEVBlog message (or you can contact me directly at acaplan [AT] paceworldwide [DOT] com) and I'll have a new one shipped to you. It's very unusual for those chips in the Tool Stand to occur, since we use a powder coating process, so this will be reported to our QA personnel.
Aaron
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Thanks for that, I genuinely appreciate it.
With a replacement arriving shortly, I'd like to keep the positivity flowing. First EEVBLOG member that wants this Pace SX/TJ stand, send me a photo of your Pace equipment and I'll mail it out to you, USA only please.
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The replacement arrived successfully the other day, and I sincerely wanted to thank Aaron @ Pace-Worldwide for going above the expected service he provides.
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Just got my new ADS200 station and completed doing a set-up on it. All seems to work good. I've had Wellers at home for years, and have used JBC's at work for years. With only a couple of solder joints made so far, it looks like this new iron is closer to the JBC than it is to the Weller in performance, and closer to the Weller than the JBC in price. Well done PACE!
One thing that is not in the manual is that the power supply start up temp is the same as it was at last power down.
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I have a couple observations to share:
1. Occasionally on power on the station goes into the Setup mode. Perhaps turning the power on may produce glitches on the power bus that kick the micro into the Setup mode. Would be good if Pace looked into it.
2. The iron goes to standby on me while i am actively soldering. Seems the configured standby timeout activates regardless of if the iron is in the caddy inactive or is being used. That is annoying. I'd think detection of variations in the tip temperature could be used to sense activity and reset the timeout.
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Well been interested in this soldering station. I like the extruded aluminium ridges on top and bottom that look like you can make a plastic insert that you can slot, locking stacked items in place against movement. The design is simple yet functional, although the blue faceplate is a little tacky, I would prefer a neutral black or grey like the other models on the website. But it's true that makes the product be noticed between all the others that you can have on a table.
My simple question (sorry if someone already asked) is that in Hong Kong or China what is the authorized reseller for your products? Not that I have any problem buying from any company who can send to HK (no customs added) but I would like to prevent the case of being lost in transit. Plus in Europe and other sites were I looked the price is way more than the US$200.
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Well been interested in this soldering station. I like the extruded aluminium ridges on top and bottom that look like you can make a plastic insert that you can slot, locking stacked items in place against movement
I still think they should come standard with some T beam angle brackets for under bench mounting.
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My simple question (sorry if someone already asked) is that in Hong Kong or China what is the authorized reseller for your products?
https://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/asia#CHINA (https://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/asia#CHINA)
I like the extruded aluminum ridges on top and bottom that look like you can make a plastic insert that you can slot, locking stacked items in place against movement.
There is a mounting bracket option 1321-0609-P1. The handpiece stands come with a couple of hex bolts that can be used as mounting hardware, or you can also use them to bolt two stands together.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=877266;image)
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With only a couple of solder joints made so far, it looks like this new iron is closer to the JBC than it is to the Weller in performance, and closer to the Weller than the JBC in price. Well done PACE! One thing that is not in the manual is that the power supply start up temp is the same as it was at last power down.
Congrats, and yes... remembers the temperature it does.
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One thing that is not in the manual is that the power supply start up temp is the same as it was at last power down.
But... isn't that the only thing one would reasonably expect to happen?
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Just watched a video that claimed that PACE was working on a set of tweezers for the ADS200 power supply. But other than the video I've not seen anything else about this. Does anyone have information about the possibility of tweezers for the ADS200?
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The manual without being explicit implies that it will go to the factory set start up temp. So the manual is correct, in that when you first power the unit on (from the factory) you get the factory start up temp. I was initially thinking that it would go to the factory start up temp, every time you turned it on. But I was wrong, it only goes to the factory set start temp the first time you start it up, after that it goes to the last used temp at power off.
Once you know about this it makes sense, but until you do know about it, you will be wondering how to change the factory start up temp, which doesn't have a setting in the programming mode. Thus this is just a public service announcement for those who ponder over these types of things.
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Quote from: mcconkeyb on Today at 10:23:59 pm (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=102389.msg2802024#msg2802024)Just watched a video that claimed that PACE was working on a set of tweezers for the ADS200 power supply. But other than the video I've not seen anything else about this. Does anyone have information about the possibility of tweezers for the ADS200?
Pace regularly posts updates on EEVblog. See last paragraph here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2769520/#msg2769520).
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Quote from: mcconkeyb on Today at 10:23:59 pm (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=102389.msg2802024#msg2802024)Just watched a video that claimed that PACE was working on a set of tweezers for the ADS200 power supply. But other than the video I've not seen anything else about this. Does anyone have information about the possibility of tweezers for the ADS200?
Pace regularly posts updates on EEVblog. See last paragraph here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2769520/#msg2769520).
January is what we were informed.
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Splurged $1 and moved mine under the bench.. soft rubber grommet soften's cable tugs from damaging plastic front connector. Guess I can live without auto setback for a week (or two, three, maybe even New Years..) :)
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The manual without being explicit implies that it will go to the factory set start up temp.
From what I can tell it just pulls up the first preset temp the first time you use it. The last time I checked the manual that was 343C/650F. So by hitting the preset (program) button once you can get it back to that temp anytime, that is until you change the presets.
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Splurged $1 and moved mine under the bench.. soft rubber grommet soften's cable tugs from damaging plastic front connector. Guess I can live without auto setback for a week (or two, three, maybe even New Years..) :)
Time to move the ISB connector to the back of a box again.
Should be dead easy to extend the ISB cable though. I'd disconnect it at the switch end on the stand remove that end and feed a new cable in. Then add the new male/female connector between your existing and new cable.
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The manual without being explicit implies that it will go to the factory set start up temp.
From what I can tell it just pulls up the first preset temp the first time you use it. The last time I checked the manual that was 343C/650F. So by hitting the preset (program) button once you can get it back to that temp anytime, that is until you change the presets.
If I hold the down button until the display shows OFF, mine will return to OFF on the next power-up. (ver 1.4)
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If I hold the down button until the display shows OFF, mine will return to OFF on the next power-up. (ver 1.4)
So you mean it also remembers the off state? I've not tried that deliberately while taking notice of it, but that would seem like predictable behavior to me. Remembering which setting you last had is mimicking an analog control.
As for interfaces you would want to make an exception to that if it was considerably more user friendly to not use that behavior (amps turning back on at full volume is one example that comes to mind) but since you have taken a deliberate action to set the controls to off and it's easily changed, that seems reasonable to me. Remembering purposeful changes is generally less annoying than forgetting them.
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Hi everyone,
I just purchased an ADS200 after using an XYtronic temp controlled iron for almost 10 years.
The first thing I noticed is that with the 3/32" chisel tip that I'm using, any temperature higher than 500F is just far too hot to do any ordinary component soldering. It came factory set to 700 or 750 I think, and when I first powered it on and applied solder, the flux burned so fast that it smelled burnt in less than a second, and some of the flux was actually vaporizing (and sputtering) on contact and creating a pillow of steam that kept the solder from even letting the solder touch the tip!
I'm able to solder at 500F, but even then, it seems like this is extremely hot as the flux on the tip still starts to burn within about 2-3 seconds, whereas on my old iron, it would take at least 10-15 seconds before it started burning.
Is this a case of something miscalibrated, or do I just need to get used to the extreme performance of a direct temp type soldering station like this? My old XYtronic was notoriously bad at keeping the temperature level when there was even a small ground plane.
My IR thermometer conveniently ran out of batteries this week so I haven't been able to measure actual tip temperature, but plan to do that next week after the holidays.
If anyone could let me know if they have a similar experience, that would be great. Thanks!
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The first thing I noticed is that with the 3/32" chisel tip that I'm using, any temperature higher than 500F is just far too hot to do any ordinary component soldering. It came factory set to 700 or 750 I think, and when I first powered it on and applied solder, the flux burned so fast that it smelled burnt in less than a second, and some of the flux was actually vaporizing (and sputtering) on contact and creating a pillow of steam that kept the solder from even letting the solder touch the tip!
I think first you want to ensure you are using the correct series cartridges. Pace 1130 and 1131 series are the only cartridges supported on the ADS200 it has a blue plastic cap at the end where the socket is. You can also read the part number off the cartridge barrel which should have a 1130 or 1131 prefix.
Does this happen to all your tips? Ensure you aren't using the black and gold ended cartridges. Try measuring the DC resistance of the tips heater using a multimeter on ohms, measure across the two contacts.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=880264;image)
I'm able to solder at 500F, but even then, it seems like this is extremely hot as the flux on the tip still starts to burn within about 2-3 seconds, whereas on my old iron, it would take at least 10-15 seconds before it started burning.
The factory presets for the ADS200 are 650/700/750F but that can be too hot for some applications with small tips. The Pace ADS200 can reach 650F set temp on a small tip in about 3-4 seconds so it's normal to be way faster than other stations. Especially if you compare it to those that take 20-30 seconds.
In normal soldering most of the time you would not apply solder to the iron tip until soldering a joint, prior to that it should be clean and shiny. If you are using flux cored solder flux will burn off as soon as the solder melts, this is normal behavior.
Super aggressive solder bubbling and flux spitting hard is either bad solder or the temp is too hot. If you have not changed the solder you should be able to predict how it has behaved in the past. Solder not wetting to the iron is also a sign of too high a temp or a dirty tip. If the solder is new test it at the same temp on another iron to rule out all possibilities.
Is this a case of something miscalibrated, or do I just need to get used to the extreme performance of a direct temp type soldering station like this? My old XYtronic was notoriously bad at keeping the temperature level when there was even a small ground plane.
What firmware does your station display on startup?
There is actually a very comprehensive calibration facility in the station. Normally you would not need to use it at all. There also should be no reason you are calibrating tips. But if you have inadvertently changed the default settings or set a temperature match here is what you need to check to get it back to defaults.
Page 6 in the manual talks about the "Temperature Match Offset" mode of the station at startup. On that same page you will see the factory defaults. In the stations config ensure the "Temperature match mode" is set to "0C0" and the "Temperature Match Value" is set to "0". When you are happy scrolling through all the settings save them by going to "End" and then pressing the up arrow button. In your case I would double check they saved as well.
Then to ensure the station now forgets about any temperature match value. Have the station turned on normally with everything connected and disconnect the handpiece at the socket.
Again as far as I'm aware you shouldn't need to do this EVER unless you have messed up these settings. So only aim to restore it back to defaults and do the disconnection to forget the temperature match.
https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200-Operation-Manual.pdf (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200-Operation-Manual.pdf)
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If anyone could let me know if they have a similar experience, that would be great. Thanks!
I'd buy a thermocouple or something to measure tip temperature.
It happened to me once that I replaced heater and thermocouple on my cheap hakko clone and it worked amazing... until I measured the actual temperature. It was 450C. Turned out I used wrong replacement parts.
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If anyone could let me know if they have a similar experience, that would be great. Thanks!
I'd buy a thermocouple or something to measure tip temperature.
It happened to me once that I replaced heater and thermocouple on my cheap hakko clone and it worked amazing... until I measured the actual temperature. It was 450C. Turned out I used wrong replacement parts.
Heh, yeah that is actually quite common on those clones, there are a few different types, 450C though that is every day soldering to Metcal users hahah. Inserting the wrong series tip has a similar symptom to what Cuebus is experiencing. Which is the same sort of problem as you had but on a cartridge based system.
The Pace 1130 and 1131 series cartridges have their own k type thermocouple, so if you more than one cartridge it should be easy to see if it's the issue. But as for measuring the temp in general yes a thermocouple can help and it's going to be more accurate than an IR thermometer.
The cartridge tips thermocouple itself should be quite accurate and there are a few methods that come to mind to check without using an external thermocouple. One of them is to reduce the station temp to the melt temp of the solder you are using, and then slowly reduce it to solid state. If the station is running significantly high or low the transition temps won't line up with the type of solder being used.
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The manual without being explicit implies that it will go to the factory set start up temp.
From what I can tell it just pulls up the first preset temp the first time you use it. The last time I checked the manual that was 343C/650F. So by hitting the preset (program) button once you can get it back to that temp anytime, that is until you change the presets.
Yes, you are right!
In the manual they do list the default factory start up temp as 700F/ 371C (second last entry in the second column of the table at the bottom of page 6 of the manual dated 10/11/2018) . But once you change the operating temp, doesn't matter how you do it, by the up/down set buttons or using one of the presets, then turn the unit off, at the next start up it will return to the last used temp before shut down. If you have not changed the user presets, then you can get to the factory settings by pressing the program button twice just after power up. Or you can press the program button twice just before shut down, and then at next power up you will once again be at 700F/371C.
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Yes, you are right!
Well almost, I was close looks like preset 2 was the factory temp. I should have looked at the manual. :) Anyway I just set the first preset to the temp I'm using the most, then one press and it's back to where I want it.
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I have a couple observations to share:
1. Occasionally on power on the station goes into the Setup mode. Perhaps turning the power on may produce glitches on the power bus that kick the micro into the Setup mode. Would be good if Pace looked into it.
2. The iron goes to standby on me while i am actively soldering. Seems the configured standby timeout activates regardless of if the iron is in the caddy inactive or is being used. That is annoying. I'd think detection of variations in the tip temperature could be used to sense activity and reset the timeout.
I have had mine for a few weeks now and have experienced neither of these issues.
I absolutely love this station so far.
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I have had mine for a few weeks now and have experienced neither of these issues.
I absolutely love this station so far.
Me neither I've used standard setback a lot and I probably turned mine on and off a hundred times testing before even using them. But one thing is I have a fairly clean power environment, I purposefully avoid running too many SMPS and bin Chinese bricks. If it is power or noise related and that is pure speculation it could literally be anything, even a sticky button will exhibit the same symptom.
The second observation is probably setting, tip and usage dependent. But detecting the variation of the tip temp is exactly how it extends (resets) the standard setback timer. When mine goes into standard setback it's because I have paused for too long and it was cooling down when I noticed it, for this reason it's probably not a good idea to have a short setting. It's easy to test if this feature is functioning properly. I'm on firmware 1-4 by the way.
Till Aaron gets back enjoy this sexy TD200 image.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=881102;image)
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Finally had a chance to get back to this. I checked that I ordered the right tips (1131 series), and I used Dave's 121GW meter's thermocouple to measure the tip temp. At the very tip, with just a dab of solder to ensure thermal coupling, I measured 670 degrees F, while the station is set to 500F. So, I think there is definitely something wrong with either the control board or the handpiece, because each tip is way overtemp in this way.
I'm on firmware 1-4. Perhaps someone from Pace can chime in - could this be as easy as a control board or firmware swap, or should I send it back to tequipment.net where I got it?
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Did you get a chance to try my recommendations in the above post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2804624/#msg2804624) to restore all the defaults in the station and remove the temperature match offset, if any? Since it doesn't appear to be a single tip problem, the config seems the most obvious.
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Will try those tonight, although, seems awfully strange to have any changes to the temp cal coming straight from the factory, no?
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Will try those tonight, although, seems awfully strange to have any changes to the temp cal coming straight from the factory, no?
I personally wouldn't be concerned how it got there, if I saw the temperatures not matching the first thing I would do is make sure all the config settings are on the defaults and clear the temp match. Since the temp match comes clear by default you aren't losing anything by trying.
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Ok, it was the tip. I thought I had ruled that out before making measurements and didn't bother to revisit it.
All the other tips measure fine.
:palm:
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If you are curious you could try measuring the DC resistance of that tip. I checked some TD200 blue series tips, I get about 4.0-4.2 ohms at room temp. For reference the TD100/TD100a black series measure about 3.8 ohms.
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We'll never know, but it wouldn't surprise me to find all high-perf brands may have return rates >1% (even after factory pre-tests). Apparently it's an art to get solid TC cementing so close to the tip, so if Joe average makes a 1st order with 4 tips, 1-in-25 will need to chat with support@paceworldwide.com Pace is top-tier fast with service, so one probably of these guys will be on the other end to help. :-+
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyGYsP0W0AEcfDT.jpg:small)
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Didn't want to thread jack, can someone please share what plug is used on the Pace SMR handles? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/what-connector-is-this-223056/) I can find other Pace connectors in Amphenol's catalog, besides this one.
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Didn't want to thread jack, can someone please share what plug is used on the Pace SMR handles? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/what-connector-is-this-223056/) I can find other Pace connectors in Amphenol's catalog, besides this one.
Well that is threadjacking. If you want to make someone aware of another thread, send them a PM.
In that thread, I gave you a plausible answer (and supplier) 4 days ago, and you never reacted.
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In that thread, I gave you a plausible answer (and supplier) 4 days ago, and you never reacted.
Posting here to see if this exact connector is available.
I ordered a connector suggested by you, awaiting shipping arrival for test fit before I reply. Thanks, and Smile!
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I have upgraded all my stations to ADS200 a few weeks now and very happy with them.
I have one problem with the "auto set back" and "auto off" functions:
When the unit enters "auto set back" simply lifting the handpiece resumes normal operation, ramp up is fast and works perfectly.
When the unit enters "auto off" lifting the handpiece does nothing, one of the keypad buttons needs to be pressed. This can be frustrating, can it be set to exit the "auto off" mode on lifting the handpiece? Why else would I lift the handpiece if I didn't want the unit to ramp up?
I know its possible to disable the "auto off" but I quite like the feature, it's beneficial for saving tips and safety.
Is there a way to have the unit exit "auto off" mode when the handpiece is lifted?
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Auto setback will lower your tip temp after a designated time after you put the iron in the stand assuming you have an auto setback stand. Auto off is set at a default of 60 minutes and the timers starts after the unit goes into setback and is not used for that amount of time.
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Yes that's how it works with my stand. I just cant understand why it doesn't wake from "off" when I pick up the iron again. It seems there is no solution unless they change the firmware.
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Maybe one situation they didn't think of when they wrote the firmware. I would disable the auto-off feature. Though I would think pressing a button isn't a real problem, since it takes several seconds to heat up from cold. I don't think I'd hold the iron waiting.
Does it heat up to setback temp when you press a button? Or do you have to lift the iron out of the cubby too?
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Congrats on the new stations, assume you have the instant setback models from your description. Aaron explained before with the autooff safety feature being config set to 90mins you can get a good lunch break in if you need.
With the stand detection exiting the station out of autooff it would mean if the station was accidentally left on and a cleaner/child/gremlin knocked the handpiece out it would turn on again leaving the full auto setback and autooff timers to count down before turning off again. This perhaps defeats the unattended safety aspect of it.
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I have one problem with the "auto set back" and "auto off" functions:
When the unit enters "auto set back" simply lifting the handpiece resumes normal operation, ramp up is fast and works perfectly.
When the unit enters "auto off" lifting the handpiece does nothing, one of the keypad buttons needs to be pressed. This can be frustrating, can it be set to exit the "auto off" mode on lifting the handpiece? Why else would I lift the handpiece if I didn't want the unit to ramp up?
You could argue that is a safety feature.
If you are using "auto set back" then you are just away for a while and it makes sense to turn on on liftoff.
But it's gone into "auto off" then that means you've gone away for a long time (left work or whatever) and forgot to turn it off. In that case a cleaner or someone could come along an knock the iron onto the floor and start a fire or something.
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Dave I noticed in your Garmin video you were still using the silicon pad to change the tips, did you lose the Pace tip tool tweezers? You should use them it will change your life. :D
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Maybe one situation they didn't think of when they wrote the firmware. I would disable the auto-off feature. Though I would think pressing a button isn't a real problem, since it takes several seconds to heat up from cold. I don't think I'd hold the iron waiting.
Does it heat up to setback temp when you press a button? Or do you have to lift the iron out of the cubby too?
Appears to just go to setback temp, though it's fast anyway.
Congrats on the new stations, assume you have the instant setback models from your description. Aaron explained before with the autooff safety feature being config set to 90mins you can get a good lunch break in if you need.
With the stand detection exiting the station out of autooff it would mean if the station was accidentally left on and a cleaner/child/gremlin knocked the handpiece out it would turn on again leaving the full auto setback and autooff timers to count down before turning off again. This perhaps defeats the unattended safety aspect of it.
I have one problem with the "auto set back" and "auto off" functions:
When the unit enters "auto set back" simply lifting the handpiece resumes normal operation, ramp up is fast and works perfectly.
When the unit enters "auto off" lifting the handpiece does nothing, one of the keypad buttons needs to be pressed. This can be frustrating, can it be set to exit the "auto off" mode on lifting the handpiece? Why else would I lift the handpiece if I didn't want the unit to ramp up?
You could argue that is a safety feature.
If you are using "auto set back" then you are just away for a while and it makes sense to turn on on liftoff.
But it's gone into "auto off" then that means you've gone away for a long time (left work or whatever) and forgot to turn it off. In that case a cleaner or someone could come along an knock the iron onto the floor and start a fire or something.
Valid point on the safety, fine as a default but I'd like the option to override that in the settings (all our irons are fixed points)
It's a relatively minor complaint on an otherwise excellent unit.
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Dave I noticed in your Garmin video you were still using the silicon pad to change the tips, did you lose the Pace tip tool tweezers?
Err, no, they are, err, in my lab...
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So what happened to the SMD tweezers? Were they released?
Thinking about getting another base unit just for those, but not sure if you can just get the base station on it's own?
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Pace may announce it at the IPC APEX EXPO in San Diego this week. I've not seen the new stations sold separately yet, but it's been done in the past.
There is a slot on the left hand side of the stand to store the tip tool. Easier to use than the silicon pad, especially changing hot tips on the tweezers.
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I figured if i broke 4 hakko 888 handles, and the new wellers have construction concerns, i will be the owner of a shiny new ads2000 :-/O
How will i know when i get it if it has the auto set-back feature? Am i correct that earlier units dont have this function? I just got the unit on ebay because there was a distributor with them for 240 there, versus 290 on amazon and most other places.
It seems to be a legit distributor, not a random seller.
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Wow! The prices jumped up quite a bit this year!
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Wow! The prices jumped up quite a bit this year!
No need to rub it in ;D ;D
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If the $239 listing you're referring to is this one...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/184160280194 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/184160280194)
...then it's not the Instant SetBack unit. The part number for Instant SetBack ends with -0579, not -0578.
The cheapest ISB unit on eBay is $295, sold by TEquipment, here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/333365788800. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/333365788800.)
-Eric
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The price increases are rather substantial. I wonder if this was planned?
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All stations come with configurable timers to go into auto setback (a low temp mode) and auto off (a no temp mode). Wiping the tip or pressing a button will cancel auto setback and pressing a button will cancel auto off.
If you buy the instant setback version of the station, the stand comes with an additional cable and switch. When this is connected to the station you can control another configurable timer called instant setback. After you pick the handpiece it cancels setback and when you return the handpiece to the stand it actives instant setback.
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The price increases are rather substantial. I wonder if this was planned?
I doubt the list price has changed significantly, maybe 10% from the introductory price. Tequipment were doing it at a reduced introductory price with the Eevblog discount on top, that shaved off a good $30-40.
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Thanks for the info, I had quite a few ebay specific discounts i could stack up so i got quite a good deal, even if it's the older, non-instant setback capable model. I suppose it's no huge loss, given what I paid.
I gotta go research the tips for these things, never had Pace before, i will have to un-learn my hakko ways! It looks like the days of buying a dozen clone tips and deciding later what tips i even want are over though :-DD
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It's not older. Just the non-setback model. You could always devise a setback switch if you're handy. The base unit still has the input for the setback switch.
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I doubt the list price has changed significantly, maybe 10% from the introductory price. Tequipment were doing it at a reduced introductory price with the Eevblog discount on top, that shaved off a good $30-40.
The bottom line is it's now about $40 more than it was regardless of the EEV Blog discount. Tips went up a couple bucks too. I had thought this model was going to stay competitive with Hakko etc.
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The price increases are rather substantial. I wonder if this was planned?
Original price sheet I have is US$265 for the auto-set back version.
Locally it's AU$500 on special now ex-gst
https://www.mektronics.com.au/pace-ads200-station-with-instant-setback-tool-stand.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/pace-ads200-station-with-instant-setback-tool-stand.html)
For comparison the Hakko FX-888 is $169
https://www.mektronics.com.au/hakko-fx-888d-digital-soldering-station-genuine-incl-free-roll-of-solder-mc334.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/hakko-fx-888d-digital-soldering-station-genuine-incl-free-roll-of-solder-mc334.html)
Not a comparable iron I know, but just shows the huge price discrepancy between the architectures.
The comparable Hakko FX951 though is $419
https://www.mektronics.com.au/hakko-fx-951-lead-free-digital-solder-station.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/hakko-fx-951-lead-free-digital-solder-station.html)
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Pace may announce it at the IPC APEX EXPO in San Diego this week. I've not seen the new stations sold separately yet, but it's been done in the past.
It would be crazy to sell the tweezers separately and not the station. Very common to have a dedicated tweezer station and iron, you don't want to be swapping them.
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Forgive me for showing up in the thread not knowing anything about this iron.
I typically am doing lots of very fine work so i prefer to use the finest tip possible when i'm not doing stuff like banging out a bunch of thru hole.
Two quick questions.
- 1/128" Conical (0.20mm) or 1/128" Conical Special (0.20mm), I can't tell what's different on these two?
- From what I can tell, the Miniwave is a great tip for SMT work, but is it worth using for general thru hole / repair work too?
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- 1/128" Conical (0.20mm) or 1/128" Conical Special (0.20mm), I can't tell what's different on these two?
Likely just more thermal capacity.
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- From what I can tell, the Miniwave is a great tip for SMT work, but is it worth using for general thru hole / repair work too?
Not really. Little concave reservoir in the tip is not deep enough for a TH wire to go into.
Also, how useful Miniwave is to you, depends on person and technique. I love it, my son doesn't. He prefers normal mid size tip. Does equally good job with it too...
Good thing about ADS200 is that tips are very affordable and very easy to change. So even if you don't use tip all the time, you can afford to get specialist tip, for those odd jobs when you need it..
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The Miniwave is more for drag soldering or reworking rows of legs on SMD packages like QFP. It gives a controlled release of solder due to the surface tension being concentrated in one spot. To drag solder larger legs and rows of though hole use the knife blade instead. The knife is the most versatile but if it's not going to break the bank I'd be getting both of these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNp0pASpgOI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNp0pASpgOI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCZZfgDm0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCZZfgDm0s)
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Forgive me for showing up in the thread not knowing anything about this iron.
I typically am doing lots of very fine work so i prefer to use the finest tip possible when i'm not doing stuff like banging out a bunch of thru hole.
Two quick questions.
- 1/128" Conical (0.20mm) or 1/128" Conical Special (0.20mm), I can't tell what's different on these two?
- From what I can tell, the Miniwave is a great tip for SMT work, but is it worth using for general thru hole / repair work too?
Knowing full well that it's not what they're intended for, I actually love that kind of tip for all sorts of non-SMD use, too. For example, they work great for tinning wires, as they hold onto the excess solder. Similarly, they work well for THT soldering, especially when the pads are on the small side, or when the hole is a bit too big, for the same reason. They don't need to envelop the entire joint, you come from the side as you would with a chisel tip.
Given how incredibly cheap Pace's Miniwave are compared to other companies (e.g. my Ersa, where a conical tip is about €10, but the "Miniwell" is €30), I'd suggest getting one. They're awesome for SMD work, but their versatility for other things make them a key member of my tip collection.
Caveat: I've never worked with a PLCC blade, so I can't compare how they behave for THT applications.
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Thanks for the inputs, fellas.
Well, i did order a Miniwave and a chisel tip and two of the fine conical tips.
I saw those videos on the Miniwave, which makes them look awesome for bigger surface mount work, but i had a suspicion they'd be good for tinning and some thru hole situations as well.
Anyway, i'll give you all a break and wait for my shiny new Pace and make my way thru the earlier pages in the thread until it gets here. :blah:
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The comparable Hakko FX951 though is $419
The Hakko FX951 comes with two different stands, that one you mentioned is the cheaper version with no sleep function. It's also only 70W and doesn't take the performance tips like the Pace and JBC do. It's better than the knockoff you tested but essentially has the same quirks.
The Pace is more comparable in spec to the JBC but without overshooting ~20C or requiring calibration. On some JBC models the station knows perfectly well it's running over set temp, but their software hides displaying it.
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I may get this if the reviews are good. I bought an FX-888D to replace my Weller but really wanted a better iron with even faster recovery and better thermal capacity. I wonder if it's programmable to go into sleep mode. Because I really don't think I need a $60 instant setback stand for electronic repair work.
Edit: Actually don't know what the model with the instant setback stand will sell for. I was looking at some wrong info.
You may want to read this before you order it with ISB https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/)
One thing I hoped Dave would show (if he decided to let them ship one), is the possibility of easy DIY instant-set-back on the new model.
This is all the ST models require:
Great Product, just got mine.
After I saw this post, I thought I'll give it a lazy try.
Three JumperWires and a 50 cent "TCRT5000 Infrared Reflectance Sensor Obstacle Avoidance Module"
The Stand actually looks like it's designed for this part :-)
[attachimg=5]
I choose the opposite side for wiring reasons and used HotGlue (reflowed with a HeatGun) to attach it.
... it instantly worked without any calibration or adjustment needed.
Now I'm all set up.
Best Regards
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Welcome to the forums, nice first post and good idea. I wonder if there are any low power wireless relay solutions that could work as well. Since there is 5V present you could just plug in the receiver into the station like a dongle.
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I thought about trying similar modules last year but never ordered one and spent the extra $ for the ISB stand.
There are different versions of that module. Some have an adjustment for sensitivity and some don't. Do you have a picture of the component side of the module?
I'm wondering how the reliability is? Does it always work properly? Thanks.
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There are different versions of that module. Some have an adjustment for sensitivity and some don't. Do you have a picture of the component side of the module?
I'm wondering how the reliability is? Does it always work properly? Thanks.
So far I tried 4 different Tips and all of them work very reliable (they are all "Ultra Performance" ones)
But I guess since the IR reflects from a round shiny surface, one of the rays will find it's target :scared:
[attach=3]
((edit: you can actually see the green indicator light (detection) through the hole in the PCB, the "green" below the blue wire is from the (power-)status led))
Welcome to the forums, nice first post and good idea.
Thanks mate I wonder if there are any low power wireless relay solutions that could work as well. Since there is 5V present you could just plug in the receiver into the station like a dongle.
you could use two esp8266-chips but you'll need another 3.3V to the holder to power the WiFi bridge
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you could use two esp8266- ;)chips but you'll need another 3.3V to the holder to power the WiFi bridge
Yes would have to be a low power battery type solution. Having power wires running to it defeats the purpose :)
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Very nice! Thanks! All you need is a mini DIN cable.
I originally thought it may be possible for a simpler solution that would use the grounded tip and a contact to provide the low input with a single conductor. But the iron tip is not at the same potential as the GND at the ISB port.
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Welcome to the forums, nice first post and good idea.
Yeah, great first post. Video worthy perhaps?
Is the ISB stand exactly the same as the non-ISB one except for the microswitch?
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Why can't this be done in firmware, like Weller does?
An idle station is detected by monitoring heat demand, which is steady and low when the iron is in the stand. Once you solder, heat demand increases and it resets the timer. It works good.
T12 clones use the shake-switch in the handle but I do like this optical sensor better.
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Yeah, great first post. Video worthy perhaps?
Is the ISB stand exactly the same as the non-ISB one except for the microswitch?
glad I could contribute something, thanks.
I guess so, It even has a metal plate fixed inside the gap where the switch would have been.
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I think ISB stand adds more of an assembly with a switch and small bracket etc than just a micro switch. But the stand is the same.
Cliff shared this a few pages back.
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Yeah, great first post. Video worthy perhaps?
Is the ISB stand exactly the same as the non-ISB one except for the microswitch?
glad I could contribute something, thanks.
I guess so, It even has a metal plate fixed inside the gap where the switch would have been.
Great pic, that really show it's the same stand. You could just install a lever micro switch too if you got the right one.
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The switch might be better on a wireless solution as it doesn't need to keep a sensor powered.
Why can't this be done in firmware, like Weller does?
There are 3 different modes you can use a combination of - automatic setback, auto off and instant setback. Every station has these in the firmware. Pace sells a instant setback stand which when connected up to the station triggers the instant setback option, or as discussed you can DIY your own if you like.
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Why can't this be done in firmware, like Weller does?
An idle station is detected by monitoring heat demand, which is steady and low when the iron is in the stand. Once you solder, heat demand increases and it resets the timer. It works good.
It works OK, but not great. My Ersa i-Con nano uses that approach, so I’m familiar with it. Two issues:
1. It doesn’t allow for really short setback timers (like 10 seconds) because it could go into setback while in your hand, e.g. while preparing a joint.
2. The bigger issue: Once the iron has gone down to the setback temperature, it relies on detecting a plunge in temperature (from wiping on the brass wool or sponge) to figure out that you want to solder again. So far so good. But where it gets problematic is when it’s just entered setback mode and the iron temperature is falling. If you grab the iron and wipe it on the brass wool to drop the temp, it doesn’t wake up, because it’s expecting the temperature to drop at that moment. So there’s a, say, 20-30 second window during which it won’t resume from setback automatically. And as it happens, it’s often right when you’ve finished inserting a bunch of components or dressing wires or whatever.
The “big” i-Con stations use an accelerometer in the handle to much more accurately detect activity.
IMHO, some kind of mechanical sensor, be it in the handle or in the stand, is the way to go.
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IMHO, some kind of mechanical sensor, be it in the handle or in the stand, is the way to go.
I agree, that's the best bullet proof solution.
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Sometimes you can over-engineer a simple task. Aaron from Pace commented that they originally used some kind of proximity sensor but it proved to be unreliable.
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Sometimes you can over-engineer a simple task. Aaron from Pace commented that they originally used some kind of proximity sensor but it proved to be unreliable.
At least with an IR proximity sensor, I could see it getting fouled with flux residue and dust, or potentially get confused by the IR radiation from the tip itself. That and being potentially sensitive to tip geometry.
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At least with an IR proximity sensor, I could see it getting fouled with flux residue and dust, or potentially get confused by the IR radiation from the tip itself. That and being potentially sensitive to tip geometry.
The module is mounted on side so shouldn't see any residue falling on it. And it has a sensitivity adjustment so maybe it can be move further from the tip. Good thing is it cost less than a dollar.
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At least with an IR proximity sensor, I could see it getting fouled with flux residue and dust, or potentially get confused by the IR radiation from the tip itself. That and being potentially sensitive to tip geometry.
The module is mounted on side so shouldn't see any residue falling on it. And it has a sensitivity adjustment so maybe it can be move further from the tip. Good thing is it cost less than a dollar.
Gravity isn't the only way things spread, for example smoke, which is exactly what I was thinking of. And spatter.
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It's a very interesting discussion. I thought that the most robust way to activate set back feature is with a microswitch pressed with the weight of the handpiece. JBC uses, afaik, electrical contact with the cartridge, which I'd assume a less reliable solution, but haven't heard any complains about it.
Cheap stations use a "tilt sensor", which is just a ball shorting the contacts. I had bad experience with this one, the station used to go into sleep when soldering for a long time without shaking the handpiece.
My current cheap soldering station seems to have an accelerometer (haven't looked inside yet, as it "just works"). It work surprisingly well, I'd say it's way too good: it often wakes up from the slightest touch of the cable, or from a tiny vibration of the table.
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It's a very interesting discussion. I thought that the most robust way to activate set back feature is with a microswitch pressed with the weight of the handpiece. JBC uses, afaik, electrical contact with the cartridge, which I'd assume a less reliable solution, but haven't heard any complains about it.
According to this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/jbc-soldering-station-cd-2bc-complete-schematic-analysis/), the tip shorts the stand to ground, one signal for the tip exchange part, another for the handle rest. Now, when the handle is in the stand, the tip isn’t touching anything, so what I assume they mean is that it’s shorting to the metal ring at the end of the handle. (This also explains a question I had wondered, namely why JBC puts a metal ring at the end of the handle, where it can get hot and burn you if you touch it.)
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Well, looks like they dropped a new video on their facebook. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=yEt1Cky0khU
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Great video Aaron/Pace the MT200s are looking great. That music is kind of catchy as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEt1Cky0khU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEt1Cky0khU)
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Now all we need is for Pace to make an affordable vacuum desoldering iron! :D
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Now all we need is for Pace to make an affordable vacuum desoldering iron! :D
Yep! Someone from a local recording studio contacted me to refurbish a mixing console. It has approx. 1,200 capacitors which need to be replaced. I've been thinking about one of those Chinese made contraptions. I don't receive enough of that type of work to invest in a better quality station.
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1200 capacitors, because faders, pots, sockets and switches never fail ;D.
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There are also 30 or so ICs on each input channel strip. But I think they're socketed. TG
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How fast can you do 1200 caps?
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Depends how do it. If you pull all the modules and do it assembly line style, it will probably take a couple days with a desoldering gun. Not something I want to do with solder wick.
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Now all we need is for Pace to make an affordable vacuum desoldering iron! :D
Yep! Someone from a local recording studio contacted me to refurbish a mixing console. It has approx. 1,200 capacitors which need to be replaced. I've been thinking about one of those Chinese made contraptions. I don't receive enough of that type of work to invest in a better quality station.
Sounds to me like you have 2400 good reasons to invest in a desoldering iron now! ;D
Given how fickle desoldering stations can be on their best days, I think the Chinese ones are asking for nothing but frustration. They might be OK for hobbyist use, but definitely not for professional use, especially not for large projects like that one!
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Are those 1,200 capacitors all electrolytic? If they're plastic film or ceramic, why do they need replacing? As someone else pointed out, the most failure-prone parts in a mixing console are probably fader pots and connectors.
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Are those 1,200 capacitors all electrolytic? If they're plastic film or ceramic, why do they need replacing? As someone else pointed out, the most failure-prone parts in a mixing console are probably fader pots and connectors.
Mostly electrolytic capacitors. The problem is some channels don't work. And you can't troubleshoot the modules once your pull them. So best to rebuild them by changing all capacitors and IC's. The IC's are pretty easy because they're socketed. And newer production opamp IC's will improve the sound and can even be upgraded to higher performance parts. There are also analog multiplexer ICs used for some of the switching. Fader pots can be changed separately if neccessary. But again, I can't troubleshoot with a scope, so I think it's best to change everything that may fail vs driving back and forth multiple times.
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That is almost certainly not the best approach, considering the monumental effort of replacing thousands of components. Instead, grab the modules for the bad channels and methodically fix and test those component by component, so you identify what components have failed, so you can make intelligent choices about what components to replace prophylactically on the good channels. If this means doing some diagnostics and repairs onsite, then do that.
Replacing everything all at once robs you of critical information about what failed. And there’s always the risk of making things worse.
P.S. Don’t be so sure that replacing old op-amps with “better” ones will improve the sound. Those circuits may behave worse with the “better” op-amps, because they weren’t designed for an op-amp with those characteristics, and could end up oscillating, for example.
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There are more than two dozen op-amps in each input channel strip. I'm not changing one part at a time. Anything could have failed. Replacement op-amps are 50 cents. Upgraded Burr Brown IC's are $2.50. They've been tested in this console and work well. So it's up to the customer if they want to spend the extra to upgrade.
Replacing everything is methodical. The console is 35 years old. If I just fix one issue on a board it will fail again, and it will be my fault. So I'm being thorough. That's the way I work.
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Are tweezers of any use in removing DIP packages, or are they strictly used for SMT? It would seem some of the broad tips could be use to remove small DIPs (8,14,16 pin) either from the top side, or by pulling from the top with another tool and applying heat to the bottom with the tweezers. Will they open wide enough for this to work?
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Are tweezers of any use in removing DIP packages, or are they strictly used for SMT? It would seem some of the broad tips could be use to remove small DIPs (8,14,16 pin) either from the top side, or by pulling from the top with another tool and applying heat to the bottom with the tweezers. Will they open wide enough for this to work?
If it was a wide enough tip I don't see why it wouldn't work, you might want to touch up the legs with some fresh solder though prior to reflow to make extracting smoother. I would say Paces vacuum desoldering handpiece would be safer for through hole especially if encountering difficult removals which requires more dwell time. If the part is not being reused it probably doesn't matter.
Pace also sells a larger tweezer the TT-65 for the Intelliheat stations including some 25mm blades. It does SOIC, SOJ, SIMM, LCC/LCCC, PLCC, PQFP packages and general SMD components. I thought that this handpiece would be ideal if you ever needed custom tips.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=880956;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=880960;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=880964;image)
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Great video Aaron/Pace the MT200s are looking great. That music is kind of catchy as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEt1Cky0khU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEt1Cky0khU)
Nice.
They so need a dual version of the ADS200 base station now.
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Nice. They so need a dual version of the ADS200 base station now.
Three channels with vacuum is even better Dave ;D. They said in the video "for Accudrive compatible stations" a plural has been used so it's officially happening.
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I would say Paces vacuum desoldering handpiece would be safer for through hole especially if encountering difficult removals which requires more dwell time. If the part is not being reused it probably doesn't matter.
Back in the 90's our employer had Pace vacuum removal gear, it worked on most DIP packages, but if you were removing large DIPs and plated through holes were sized with no clearance you could not get all the solder out of the holes. The holes were too tight to rock the leads as well. More often than not you had to clip the leads and remove one pin at a time. This was particularly a problem with the pins on the power and ground planes or boards that were thicker than 62 mills. The process for a large DIP like a 68000 CPU was quite time consuming. The SX-100 looks much simpler to clean and maintain then what we had back then, but I don't know if this technology actually works any better than what we had 30 years ago.
There is simply no comparison between my old Weller WTCP from that era and the ADS 200 I received for Christmas but not sure that applies to vacuum removal gear. Oh, and the tweezers are a fraction of the cost of the vacuum station & handpiece. ;D
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One thing Pace did with the newer vacuum desoldering tips is add a fluted end to improve flow into the trap. But otherwise the laws of physics haven't changed, if you jam pins or legs in tight it's hard to remove without damage while the joint is sweated.
There is a bit of crossover in the Pace tool range. You can do smd removal with the SX100 with pick tips that utilize the vacuum, plus it has flat faced desoldering tips for track and pad cleaning. So it's not just solely for through hole. The TP100 mini tweezer has a pick tool built in as well.
On the TD200 you can get a lot of bang for buck with just a large chisel. I tested it out initially by removing small through hole components by heating both legs at once. That said, brute force isn't without risk, if the legs are slightly formed of clinched it requires a lot more force which combined with heat is where damage can occur. For vacuum desoldering you can take your time and get a bit more feedback. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=495488;image)
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Yup! But I've now chiseled my way into a parts surplus I'll never escape.. :-DD
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https://paceworldwide.com/mt-200-minitweez-kit
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It's about a hundred more than their previous model. From what I see more power, adjustment, aluminum legs, new instant setback stand and a few more smd tips in the series.
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I would like a tweezer for my ADS200 but at that price I'll stick to the dual-iron technique. You can buy a lot of KSGER T12s for that money... (And I did LOL)
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Yeah I feel like they're jacking up the prices now!
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Yeah I feel like they're jacking up the prices now!
Aaron from Pace told us about the ADS200 introductory list price ($265 for instant setback) when the station came out, also the new tweezers were more expensive than the older model, and that Pace has no control over dealer pricing.
If you paid addition to the prices on tequipments website you will have noticed they aren't discounting the station or tweezers 10% at the moment. When you stack that with our 6% it makes quite a difference. So in reality there is less price "discounting" than price "jacking" on tequipments website.
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It's about a hundred more than their previous model. From what I see more power, adjustment, aluminum legs, new instant setback stand and a few more smd tips in the series.
Not to mention that the station it connects to is cheaper than the stations the older tweezers go with.
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It's about a hundred more than their previous model. From what I see more power, adjustment, aluminum legs, new instant setback stand and a few more smd tips in the series.
Not to mention that the station it connects to is cheaper than the stations the older tweezers go with.
I have a feeling that they will expand the Accudrive line to be the successor to the Intelliheat line
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Yes, I’ve assumed that to be the case from the beginning.
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Just saw this tip holder for Pace cartridge tips posted on Thingiverse.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4206731 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4206731)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=945092;image)
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I was waiting to purchase the new MT-200 tweezers when they are released, but at $400(with ISB) is nearly double then what I paid for the entire ADS200 station and TD-200 soldering pen combo. MT-200 is about twice the cost of MT-100. A bit overpriced, in my opinion. Reminds of JBC pricing...
Just saw this tip holder for Pace cartridge tips posted on Thingiverse.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4206731 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4206731)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=945092;image)
Placing the tips in and out into the retail packaging is adding additional time and effort compared to storing tips in the holes on the ISB base.
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I was waiting to purchase the new MT-200 tweezers when they are released, but at $400(with ISB) is nearly double then what I paid for the entire ADS200 station and TD-200 soldering pen combo. MT-200 is about twice the cost of MT-100. A bit overpriced, in my opinion.
I agree it looks expensive but our actual price with the tequipment.net eevblog 6% discount code $366 and that includes a pair of $44 tips so really the tweezers are about $320 with setback stand. This is calculated on full list price so that may come down a little if they do a sale. As the ADS200 was on an introductory price as well as on sale for two years it exaggerates the difference.
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Shock and Cliff,
I'm finally getting close to picking up the ADS200 from Tequipment--a little disappointed that I waited for the 2yr sale to stop--but oh well. I've read every page of this thread since Cliff started it, and had a couple of questions regarding tips, etc.
1. Is the firmware version pretty settled at this point? I was not looking forward to sending the chip to Aaron for replacement. It does look like the gasket issue is resolved, at least.
2. Does it seem like there is a consensus on the standard vs ultra-performance tips? price/performance/value
3. I'm coming from an Edsyn 971 where I only used the chisel tip it came with (and ignored the 5-7 others in the bag) and i've fallen deep into the weeds at times here on the forums reading tip recommendation threads(chisel/bent chisel/miniwave/etc), so if you were buying one as a gift for someone to do basic soldering repairs to small appliances, soldering practice kits to improve skills, etc, would you have a basic set of tips in mind that would do the trick until one was knowledgeable enough or had some specific work that might require a different tip option?
here is my basic list:
-=standard tips=-
0.80mm Chisel
1.2mm Bent Chisel
2.38mm Chisel
3.05mm Miniwave
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The firmware 1.4 has been out for some time yes. As far as I'm aware it's still the latest. You don't send your old firmware back, Aaron was just sending out the 1.4 to those on older versions.
Both series of cartridges have the same heater but the ultra performance have more mass over the heater. The more mass a tip has, the shorter the tip is, the greater the contact surface with the target means the better performance it will have. So it's a combination of all those factors.
Some of the tips are only in the one series anyway and it makes sense when you look at the tip sizes. For instance the rework blades are in standard series but do you really need more mass in that situation, probably not. I use mostly the ultra performance tips but if I was doing smd prototyping I'd use the standard.
The tips you have selected are a good start. I would add a large chisel as well, they are useful for soldering and removing heatsinks in repair. Then a knife blade which is multipurpose but good for wick/wiping across pads.
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Shock,
thanks for the extra tip recommendations. Have you found the extra mass in the "head" of the ultra perfs getting in the way/obscuring the view at all when working?
oh, on the large chisel, how big is too big??? :o
(ultra perf parts)
3/16" Chisel (4.78mm) P/N 1131-0054-P1
1/4" Chisel (6.35mm) P/N 1131-0055-P1
9/32" Chisel (7.14mm) P/N 1131-0056-P1
5/16" Chisel (7.95mm) P/N 1131-0057-P1
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No doesn't bother me at all. If I was choosing from the large chisels for me the 13/64" (5.15mm) and the 5/16" (7.95mm). The small one is more for size appropriate jobs and the large one is good at one shot desoldering through hole transistors and small caps, eyelets, heat sinks, back of potentiometers.
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I'm gonna butt in here even though I am not part of this conversation,
1. Is the firmware version pretty settled at this point? I was not looking forward to sending the chip to Aaron for replacement. It does look like the gasket issue is resolved, at least.
Mine bought either a few months ago or half a year ago (can't remember) is on 1-4 and i have never had a problem except for the first time auto setback kicked in during the middle of some work. It is not too hard to fix that, but you'll have to check the manual if it's an issue as i don't remember. I never had the gasket issue. i think that's long gone
2. Does it seem like there is a consensus on the standard vs ultra-performance tips? price/performance/value
Yeah, I have three tips: one standard chisel 3/16, ultra conical 1/32, and ultra conical 1/128.
While I don't have any problems with the standard chisel, the price difference between the two is negligible so i don't even know why you wouldn't get ultra performance.
I typically switch between the two during tough repair jobs involving desoldering. Being able to swap the tips and reheat so fast rules btw but i wish they gave you a place to set the tips.
3. I'm coming from an Edsyn 971 where I only used the chisel tip it came with (and ignored the 5-7 others in the bag) and i've fallen deep into the weeds at times here on the forums reading tip recommendation threads(chisel/bent chisel/miniwave/etc), so if you were buying one as a gift for someone to do basic soldering repairs to small appliances, soldering practice kits to improve skills, etc, would you have a basic set of tips in mind that would do the trick until one was knowledgeable enough or had some specific work that might require a different tip option?
I asked about the miniwave and got a lot of rave reviews on it. But, for my needs I will simply replace my standard 3/16 chisel with an ultra of the same size when it's time to replace it. I thought I would start with these three tips and then move on to what else I needed and so far I have not needed. The combination of that size chisel and conical tip have been awesome and amazingly useful for me. The 1/128 only comes out when I am trying to solder wires to surface mount pins or something like that, so it's hardly used.
After nearly equivalent amounts of abuse, the ultra conical looks better. Could just be that it re-tins easier due to its shape. I guess you can take my suggestions with a grain of salt, because I like conical tips a lot and they work great for me as an all-around tip whereas i know a lot of people despise conical. I can't do fine work with a chisel tip to save my life.
For what it's worth, this is the only station i've ever used that allows hot swap of tips (no pun intended) and I do have a jbc clone on the way that can also swap tips while on.
Anyway, what i'm trying to get at is in several months of daily use for all sorts of jobs, i have only found myself wanting my two go-to tips and then the third for special jobs. If you anticipate needing more, go ahead and get more. if you're in the USA, shipping is really reasonable direct from pace.
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Mp3 you reminded me to mention that Hrbngr get the "instant setback" version of the station if he wants stand setback/wake detection.
They give you two places to stow hot tips. One is the silicon rubber pad, the other is several tip storage holes on the back of the stand and a slot for the tip tool and more tips on the stand sides (see right photo). The tip tool is the easiest way to swap hot tips.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=507923;image)
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Shock,
Does the station w/ISB stand come w/the tip tool?
I did have this in the "Accessories" order I was thinking of making later:
**TEquipment pricing
P/N 1100-0232-P1 Fiber Cleaning Tool $20.76
P/N 4021-0013-P3 Replacement Sponges $6.92
P/N 1213-0090-P5 Replacement O-Ring (5pk) $3.95
P/N 1100-0206-P1 Pace Tip Tool $12.85
If it is not included, is it worth it to move into the order w/the station? Or can I use the silicon rubber pad until then?
Mp3,
for the conical tips, i don't have much experience with them. I had been looking at the bent tip variant:
P/N 1131-0003-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30° (0.40mm) * $13.84
Would an option like that replicate some of uses of the 1/64 straight conical?
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Yes the tip tool comes with the complete station so no need to order a second.
I prefer a set of chisels over pointy ones as they have better control and contact with the pcb, In these videos you can see how chisels are really ideal for both smd and through hole pads. In the first video at 1m33s he very slightly changes contact angle of the tip to ensure the melf gets reflowed with a nice fillet. Then use a conical such as the sharp bent for fine work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6tpQE7ptqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6tpQE7ptqo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b15MMzb_GWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b15MMzb_GWw)
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Hey thanks Shock, I had totally forgot the stand had a place for the tips. :-DD Glad I brought it up then! :-+
Mp3,
for the conical tips, i don't have much experience with them. I had been looking at the bent tip variant:
P/N 1131-0003-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30° (0.40mm) * $13.84
Would an option like that replicate some of uses of the 1/64 straight conical?
Yeah, the only difference really in bent and straight conical comes down to how you like to hold the iron - as far as i'm aware. There are some angles that are really difficult to get without a bent tip and i honestly should get one for that reason.
I think the 1/64 is a good size to go with if you want to have a single conical tip. Even if you don't use them regularly, I find a smaller conical tip like that to be really useful doing repairs on dense boards, as well as cleaning out PCB holes that get filled in during desoldering.
(For what it's worth I have the non - instant setback version and it included both the rubber flap and tweezer style removal tools.)
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I was admiring my new ADS200 last night and I realized that the cartridges only have two electrical contacts but the handle cable terminates in four electrical connections which has me confused. I was under the impression that each cartridge contains a thermocouple and a heating element.
Does anyone have any insight to how this works? Shining a light down into the handle seems to show that there are indeed only two electrical contacts. Did I completely miss something? I looked through Dave's review video and went through a good number of the previous comments on this thread but was not able to find any commentary on this.
Does the iron do something weird like put the thermocouple in series with the heater element and switches back and forth between power and sense? Is it actually just a PTC heater element with a calibrated curve?
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The red power wire of the heater is supplied by a fet driven fullwave rectifier outputting pulsed DC at half mains frequency. The control circuitry switches that rail with another fet again to provide the regulation. Temp measurements for the software control are taken from the cartridges k type thermocouple in series with the heater. This can be done (if required) while the cartridge is being heated, during the zero point of each pulse.
The blue is ground and the and green goes to chassis/earth. The white I assume is some kind of thermal protection or tip detection and not connected to the cartridge. It looks like a component is connected to it, I've never bothered to check it out.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=507962;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=979794;image)
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I recently studied the Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review and I have two questions, please:
1) Did the manufacture ever give a update about the flux being left on the board? Like that won't happen anymore? I don't want to buy one of these and have corrosion on it and a few years later
2) This Pace unit is 120 watts and the JBC in the review was 130w. Should there be that much of a thermal performance difference for just 10 watts? If not, for a 10 watt difference why wasn't the Pace closer in thermal performance as the JDC? Since it is based on wattage.
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Since the stations weren't at normal soldering temperature the JBCs performance was exaggerated. It has a different heating profile and clearly was overshooting during recovery at a low temp. The proof of this is if you watch the video carefully it was reading high briefly on the thermometer. JBCs own benchmarks show the same thing at full temp. Once a solder thermal bridge was established it helped it out even more. There is even a member on the forums here that has a Chinese station which solders below melt point, amazing!
So neither station was struggling, just the JBC was running hotter. As that video mentions, Pace deliberately plate there tips to last, compared to JBC prices and considering longevity I think it's a nice saving. The power difference indicated between the two I doubt was even a factor, both stations have very similar heating/recovery speeds.
No idea about the flux, it was only on the hand soldered connectors. I'm sure Pace saw it and would have changed their process if they thought it was necessary. Without knowing the flux being used it could have a beneficial effect on tin whiskers. :)
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The firmware 1.4 has been out for some time yes. As far as I'm aware it's still the latest. You don't send your old firmware back, Aaron was just sending out the 1.4 to those on older versions.
I'm still running 1.2 :(
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Hey Shock (and anyone else) - a quesrtion for anyone with the instant setback stand. Isn't the instant setback switch on that stand a simple microswitch?
If so, i was thinking about rigging up a foot pedal to act as that switch, since i tend to flip the power on and off as i need it, and maybe keeping a little box on the floor is easier than always reaching for the power switch.
I recently studied the Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review and I have two questions, please:
1) Did the manufacture ever give a update about the flux being left on the board? Like that won't happen anymore? I don't want to buy one of these and have corrosion on it and a few years later
2) This Pace unit is 120 watts and the JBC in the review was 130w. Should there be that much of a thermal performance difference for just 10 watts? If not, for a 10 watt difference why wasn't the Pace closer in thermal performance as the JDC? Since it is based on wattage.
my 2 cents
1) I have gear from the 80's that has flux coated boards, and i was horrified when i saw it, but i even made a thread about it on here once and several people told me i could clean it off if i wanted but it wouldn't likely harm anything. Not saying the pace is definitely protected against that as , since Shock says, there are many kinds of flux out there.
2) I have a clone of that jbc station on the way which some youtube reviewers really like, but from what i seen, and having used my pace very much in the last couple months, i don't think that 10 watt difference is making any real difference. To address your other point, the pace definitely overshoots when i power it up or switch temperatures on it, so i think it just tends to do that, personally i prefer it to overshoot for a second than sag and catch back up.
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2) This Pace unit is 120 watts and the JBC in the review was 130w. Should there be that much of a thermal performance difference for just 10 watts? If not, for a 10 watt difference why wasn't the Pace closer in thermal performance as the JDC? Since it is based on wattage.
Not sure what video you are referring to but in my comparison video the JBC did outperform the Pace thermally. I do not know if that's at the expense of temperature recovery overshoot though as some have suggested.
IMO the only way to fairly compare irons for thermal performance is to turn them down a to a minimum temp that will melt on given surface (e.g. copper plane) if they are both the same temp and one melt and the other doesn't then you have a clear winner. Pace took me to task at the time over this comparison, but even when asked they provided no better method for a comparison.
But it's pretty moot under normal soldering conditions. Pace also admitted that the JBC was in a different price bracket so any comparison in that regard was not fair.
Tips and their individual performance also play a huge role. Plus the JBC has 10W more power.
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I'm still running 1.2 :(
Lost the 1.4 they sent you no doubt hehehe. The irony is 1.4 is the firmware you helped inspire.
Dave that low temp test has one large flaw. It will favor the station with the greater overshoot every time unless there is a large power difference. The idle temps might be the same but it doesn't mean they are soldering at that same temp.
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Hey Shock (and anyone else) - a quesrtion for anyone with the instant setback stand. Isn't the instant setback switch on that stand a simple microswitch?
If so, i was thinking about rigging up a foot pedal to act as that switch, since i tend to flip the power on and off as i need it, and maybe keeping a little box on the floor is easier than always reaching for the power switch.
It is a simple microswitch. If you scroll back you will see this post here which uses a low cost optical switch (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2926674/#msg2926674). I think the functionality works best though being in the stand itself. More like an automatic on/off switch when you are moving and returning the handpiece (which you have to do anyway). A low power wireless stand switch would work as well.
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TY, i might be overthinking it. Also, I didn't realize anyone still used PLCC ROMs! Lucky Dave gets to swap a ROM 8)
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The entire Pace Intelliheat series is the same as far as I'm aware. When you look at the rest of their products you start to see the reason behind some of the design choices in the ADS200, which looks a bit weird at first until you realize it's a sparsely populated military style layout of some of their multichannel designs.
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The proof of this is if you watch the video carefully it was reading high briefly on the thermometer.
I've been trying to study this and find it but I can not. Can you tell me, please, what time mark in the video this happens?
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I've been trying to study this and find it but I can not. Can you tell me, please, what time mark in the video this happens?
22m35s:
You can see the JBC when tested on a small thermocouple it's bouncing in pulses to 290C when a set temp of 280C is used. Dave and the JBC both say 280C but the tip temp is not shown while soldering.
23m30s:
You can see the Pace settle up to temp at 280C on the thermometer. He pre loads the Pace tip with solder immediately attempts to solder a joint. The Pace tip is likely gently recovering to 280C. The display confirms this when it goes between 270-280C.
It's important to note despite what Dave indicates the Pace is not working hard, if it was you would see the temp drop low on the station and the LED indicating heating is occurring. It's just keeping the tip regulated and will be somewhere just below 280C trying to gently regulate the last few degrees.
Both stations are doing different things, the Pace is trying to keep an absolute temp and the JBC is putting in larger bursts when it thinks been robbed of a few degrees. What is essentially being tested here is how both soldering stations regulate at an anemic soldering temperature, not maximum power delivery.
In JBCs own charts you can see they regulate the JBC to include an overshoot. This is the difference you are seeing in the video. Pace is regulating an undershoot to temp JBC is overshooting. Two different soldering temps are occurring and the Pace is the more accurate regulating station.
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Dave that low temp test has one large flaw. It will favor the station with the greater overshoot every time unless there is a large power difference. The idle temps might be the same but it doesn't mean they are soldering at that same temp.
Of course it will if a product overshoots. But that will be true regardless of the temperature used, so that argument is kinda moot.
And no one has come up with a better way to practically show the difference, short of welding a thermocouple to the tip.
In this case the JBC has 10W more power, so all things being equal you would expect it to perform slightly better than the pace.
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Thermocouples? I don't know why people are sticking to antique methods.
A thermal imaging camera is the way to do it.
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Anyway Dman777 that is my explanation of the disparity. I doubt the 10W, plating and geometry differences had as much to do with it as the JBC overshoot and the Pace undershoot to temp which can easily account for a 30C soldering temp difference.
Both stations are fast and have plenty of power, the Pace just regulates more accurately as it's close to set temp.
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I was admiring my new ADS200 last night and I realized that the cartridges only have two electrical contacts but the handle cable terminates in four electrical connections which has me confused. I was under the impression that each cartridge contains a thermocouple and a heating element.
Does anyone have any insight to how this works? Shining a light down into the handle seems to show that there are indeed only two electrical contacts. Did I completely miss something? I looked through Dave's review video and went through a good number of the previous comments on this thread but was not able to find any commentary on this.
Does the iron do something weird like put the thermocouple in series with the heater element and switches back and forth between power and sense? Is it actually just a PTC heater element with a calibrated curve?
I did some reverse engineering a while back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054)
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The blue is ground and the and green goes to chassis/earth. The white I assume is some kind of thermal protection or tip detection and not connected to the cartridge. It looks like a component is connected to it, I've never bothered to check it out.
The white wire is connected to a NTC thermistor for cold junction compensation. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054)
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Thermocouples? I don't know why people are sticking to antique methods.
A thermal imaging camera is the way to do it.
Emissivity might trip you up there. Getting meaningful and comparable results could be tricky.
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As far as Pace's claim of no calibration when needed when changing tips, has anyone tested this? It wasn't tested on the eevblog review video but I feel that it should of. I would like to know if the claim of no calibration of changing tips is true in the real world results.
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Anyway Dman777 that is my explanation of the disparity. I doubt the 10W, plating and geometry differences had as much to do with it as the JBC overshoot and the Pace undershoot to temp which can easily account for a 30C soldering temp difference.
Both stations are fast and have plenty of power, the Pace just regulates more accurately as it's close to set temp.
That's my conclusion as well. I prefer using the Pace now, not for any performance reason, just "the vibe".
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Anyway Dman777 that is my explanation of the disparity. I doubt the 10W, plating and geometry differences had as much to do with it as the JBC overshoot and the Pace undershoot to temp which can easily account for a 30C soldering temp difference.
Both stations are fast and have plenty of power, the Pace just regulates more accurately as it's close to set temp.
That's my conclusion as well. I prefer using the Pace now, not for any performance reason, just "the vibe".
Well, to me performance is spectacular too.. I was able to easily afford nice set of tips, and it works great...
Speaking of, I tried soldering on the large double sided unetched piece of FR4, and it worked much better than it did for you, Dave.
I did use two larger tips high performance tips, though. I think that it shows one more thing: today with cartridges, you compare tips with tips, not irons with irons. PACE and JBC have different thermal performance tips in same tip size, and comparing between the brands is hard to do.
When I was deciding what new system to buy price was important but not primary. I would have easily given 200-300€ more if it meant measurable gain in performance (in real world scenario) or much better ergonomics or smaller running cost. I tried using JBC and it didn't feel right. It heats really fast, but for small solder joints there is no difference compared to ADS200 (or Hakko FX-951 to that matter). Soldering on large thermal mass boards, they ALL need preheat.. It's not even about how much power (thermal energy) you have in the soldering tip, it's about thermal conductance of the board.
Also (this is personal "feel" thing) JBC handles and tips just look like they are going to break any moment. They do not feel or look robust. I have big hands and they look like a toy. That being said, I'm very precise and gentle to the board and soldering iron and newer apply any force. I'm sure JBC would have lasted me for decades without problem. But it bothers me..
And ADS200 handle is fantastic to hold, tip distance is great too, aluminium makes it cold even after being on for hours.
I had problems with JBC tip wetting too. They kept going dry and unwettable all the time, doing same things, same temperatures (on controller screen), same solder and flux. It is either they have different materials in tip coatings, or temperature was higher that stated. I have an (unverified) theory that maybe because of very aggressive heating profile, there are microfractures forming on surface that promote this kind of behaviour...Like with everything else thermal shocks are very dangerous. JBC's super fast heating might be the problem. There is also discussion in industry that soldering stations (like reflow owens) should have heating profile, and that too fast and large thermal shock is dangerous to components. So slower heat up is probably beneficial to components you are soldering. Preheat too.
And funny enough from JBC's own mouth:https://www.jbctools.com/dynamic-soldering-profiles.html (https://www.jbctools.com/dynamic-soldering-profiles.html)
So after all of this it was PACE for me and my use case.
What about JBC then? Well, while PACE has large set of tips, JBC has even more, including some very specialist types. If that's what you need, than JBC is best for you. JBC also has it's tools in more sizes. They have larger soldering iron than PACE, and also smaller ones, down to tiny pico sizes, that are so small they are hard to hold in your hand (my hand anyways), so if that's what you want, yeah JBC it is..
So to sum up this saga, for me (and my use case) it is both vibe and performance.
Regards
Sinisa
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Has anyone else had a tip just... stop working? I've had the ADS200 for about a year and a half, and I love it. My favorite tip was the "ultra performance" 5mm chisel, 1131-0010-P1, but in the middle of soldering last week "CHP" appeared on the display and the iron went cold. I plugged in a different tip and it behaved as normal. I cleaned the contacts on the original tip, stuck it back in, and nothing I tried could revive it. It had a pretty easy life, i.e. only 63/37 lead solder, only used the brass wool, and at no point did it get oxidized enough to warrant some sal ammoniac tip tinner compound. Always kept between 300 and 350 C. The whole thing just seems strange. Can anyone relate?
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Haven't had a problem and I've had quite a few tips for a similar length of time, a couple of years. The first thing to check is if you have inserted it fully, but if you think the tip is dead could be good idea to take a resistance measurement across the two contacts.
If it's gone, I'd send the original invoice and a photo of the tip condition in an email off to Pace and let them determine if it's a warranty issue.
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Oh, I'm quite certain that it's fully inserted. In fact, insertion to different depths was one of the things that I tried early on. I just measured resistance across the contacts, and it reads open. A few other known working tips were in the single digit ohms range, so looks like this is indeed toast. I guess I just don't really understand what could've happened? Like I said, it has had a pretty easy life. No thermal shock, no mechanical shock, etc. Sure sounds like a manufacturing defect. Is Pace good about warranties on disposable items?
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Tips and consumables normally aren't covered by any type of warranty. As I said though send an email with your invoice and a photo of tip condition, mention it has failed open. They do have good customer service but it is up to Pace to determine if it's covered or not.
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Do most of you buy performance tips or the non performance tips? Not sure what I should start collecting when I buy the Pace. It will mainly be for soldering usb contact points in making usb cords. It might also be for occasional solder something on motherboards of my old game consoles when/if(cough) they break.
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General soldering, tinning wires and making cables is not all that challenging but motherboards probably better off with the ultra performance tips.
In the range of tips some are only in ultra performance and some are only in standard. If you look at the size of the tips it makes a bit more sense, such as the large blade tips are already high mass and for smd rework rather than heating through hole. Cartridge tips have a fairly slim profile so the ultra performance tips aren't all that much harder to work with.
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Do most of you buy performance tips or the non performance tips?
I mostly use the performance tips unless I'm very tight for space on the board for some reason.
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It's worth mentioning that all of the tips that are available for the ADS200 are quite affordable. The price delta between the regular and performance tips is so insignificant that there's really no point in getting a bunch of regular ones. I have one or two for, like Dave says, getting in to really tight spots. E.g. backside of a transformer that someone butted up against a cheap plastic connector.
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Curious.... since iron is a bad conductor of heat, would the non performance tips allow better heat transfer and faster recovery? Since they are thinner with less metal?
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The standard tips are slightly faster heating from cold but during soldering they maintain a slightly lower average tip temperature than the ultra performance. In many situations this won't matter, but if you are soldering challenging joints the ultra performance tips are more advantageous.
Most soldering iron tips are constructed in the following manner:
- Internal Copper Core: The core of each tip is composed of copper, an excellent heat-transfer material. Unfortunately, solder has a solvent effect on copper and will rapidly dissolve it when exposed to various solder alloys (especially lead-free solder). So it must be protected by another layer of plating.
- Iron Plating: Iron plating is the protective layer electroplated over the surface of the tip, and the thicker the iron plating, the longer the life of the tip. But iron it is a terrible heat transfer medium, and if plated too much, the performance of the tip will be affected. Lead-free optimized tips are usually plated with 5-10 mils of iron plating, and any more iron plating will negatively affect heat transfer - tip will take forever to heat up or will not recover quick enough after soldering. All PACE tips are plated with 7-9 mils of iron.
- Chrome plating: a layer of non-solderable chrome plating is usually to the back portion of the tip, applied to prevent the solder from creeping too far up the tip.
- Tinning: The iron-plated working end of the tip is tinned with pure tin or solder alloy. This coating of solder protects the iron plating.
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Do most of you buy performance tips or the non performance tips? Not sure what I should start collecting when I buy the Pace. It will mainly be for soldering usb contact points in making usb cords. It might also be for occasional solder something on motherboards of my old game consoles when/if(cough) they break.
Once my non-performance chisel tip is too beat to keep using, i'm going to get the performance version and never look back. I really can not imagine why NOT to get one.
I might get a non-performance version of something super fine point to echo EEVblog's point, though i don't know that i've recently run into any situations where the extra mass of the performance tip would have screwed me up.
The ADS200 rules!!
The standard tips are slightly faster heating from cold
Lol you and I both know this is a totally moot point. I don't even turn on my station until I'm ready to get the first solder joints done, performance tip or not.
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Lol you and I both know this is a totally moot point.
I was illustrating to dman777 that faster heating from cold isn't the same as recovery during soldering. When it comes to bottlenecks (when performance counts) you always are going to be better off with the chunky monkey. Which series is better though depends entirely on your situation, for finer tips it doesn't matter as much.
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Some pricing notes from accesstronik in CAD:
- MT200 tweezers $415 ($300 US) (no stock yet)
- MT200 tweezers with stand $475 ($340 US) 6993-0321-P1 (no stock)
- ADS200 station with handle and 2 free tips, no setback $335 ($240 US) 8007-0578
- ADS200 station with handle and 2 free tips, setback $395 ($282 US) 8007-0579
- ADS200 station with MT200 and stand $979 ($700 US)
So its cheaper to order the station + tweezers separately (~$800). Plus you'll need tips.. $70 each, not cheap but compare that to JBC at double the price.
As Dave said earlier, they don't seem to sell the ADS200 base on its own. If you need the two options (iron + tweezer), you either need to order two kits ($$$), or possibly just order the one ADS200 and use a switch board to flip over the connections. Someone did this with an Ersa, not sure how hard it would be on the Pace to do. Metcal is theoretically the easiest (just switch one pin over). These stations heat up so quickly that having two bases is really not necessary.
In terms of the MT200, I feel like there is some compromise here. The tip arms cannot come close to each other due to the wider design of the handle, so you end up with that 90 degree jog which means very limited clearance when trying to access tight areas. Compare this to Hakko/Weller/JBC tweezers, where the tips are more of a straight shot and very thin, so have excellent clearance.
Of course you can get the "extended" version, but unsure how it would affect performance:
1mm chip removal: https://paceworldwide.com/MT-200-chip-removal-tips-1130-1003-p1
1mm chip extended: https://paceworldwide.com/mt-200-extended-reach-tips-1130-1011-p1
Google MT100 or MT200 for any sort of videos/usage. Other than the Pace promo video, I can't find anything.
I suspect it would be possible to build the curve into the heater cartridge tube instead of the tip itself. The setup costs would be higher though.
Of course, this may end up not being an issue at all. Would have to use them first..
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Of course, this may end up not being an issue at all. Would have to use them first.
Haven't tried the MT200 yet but I've been using the MT100 now for about 18 months. The MT100 use similar cartridges and I've not had any problems using them. The MT200 should in theory be able to use different QFP removal tips as well if they release them. Perhaps that is what you are overlooking in the design.
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Haven't tried the MT200 yet but I've been using the MT100 now for about 18 months. The MT100 use similar cartridges and I've not had any problems using them. The MT200 should in theory be able to use different QFP removal tips as well if they release them. Perhaps that is what you are overlooking in the design.
I just know the last board I reworked would have not been possible with those triangular shaped tips (1130-1011-p1 (https://paceworldwide.com/mt-200-extended-reach-tips-1130-1011-p1)) due clearance beside the component. With the fine point tips (1130-1001-p1 (https://paceworldwide.com/mt-200-fine-point-chip-removal-tips-1130-1001-p1)) it would be possible, but might need to swap multiple tips.
Are you using the fine point ones typically?
I agree for anything through hole, or larger SMD the MT100/200 looks killer. I suspect thats more toward what they are aiming at, military type rework on older systems or with large thermal sinking.
With Metcal and JBC, they have both "standard" and "fine SMD" type tweezers, not saying it can't be done with one type though.
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is it possible to use a MT-200 tip in the regular TD-200 iron?
The 1130-1013-P1 tip would be a nice microsoldering tip for the TD-200.
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Are you using the fine point ones typically?
For my Pace MT100 mini tweezers I have several different tips which include 0.2mm, 0.5mm and 1mm. I use the MT100 exclusively for these sizes and as I mentioned I have no problems with it. I also have a set of Pace TT65 tweezers which are a larger model, the smallest smd chip tip is 0.4mm.
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- ADS200 station with MT200 and stand $979 ($700 US)
Ouch. Have they just priced themselves out of the market?
I wouldn't pay my own money for that.
The ADS200 range is supposed to be their competitive low cost production option.
They already have established high priced tweezer and other solutions.
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- ADS200 station with MT200 and stand $979 ($700 US)
Ouch. Have they just priced themselves out of the market?
I wouldn't pay my own money for that.
The ADS200 range is supposed to be their competitive low cost production option.
They already have established high priced tweezer and other solutions.
I'm also confused with strategy here. Tweezers with stand (without controller) are more expensive than ADS200 station complete....
I expected MT200+ station to be,say, 100 € more than ADS200 set, not twice as much. I cannot be persuaded that there is a reason for MT200 to be so much more expensive than ADS200...
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The ADS200 range is supposed to be their competitive low cost production option.
I think you mean Accudrive series, Paces tools are series compatible. I don't recall Pace saying the MT200 was low cost. In my opinion the Pace soldering irons and vacuum desoldering iron have a fairly low cost of ownership by comparison to the tweezers.
Most people who brought their Pace ADS200 paid under $250 in the US. The tweezers and stand are $365 at tequipment.net after eevblog discount so that would mean *both tools* and station for $615 (or about $655 if you paid the current full list from TE today). In other words don't pay full list for the MT200 with station unless you want to pay more money and forgo the free TD200 with stand. :D
Aaron told us before the MT200 soft launch it was going to cost more than the MT100. He also clearly explained back in 2018 (see below) that the ADS200 station itself was more expensive to make and was hoping to keep the ADS200/TD200 at $270 list for the ISB version initially. Here we are a couple of years later and it's at $295 list (according to tequipment at least).
...We’re just not making the amount of margin that we were on previous models!
...sticker shock for soldering stations is a very real issue for us, so we want to keep the price as low as is possible.
...Is ADS200 designed for the hobbyist? Not really, but we know the price point will be attractive to the hobbyist, more so than previous models.
…the ADS200 has about 85% parts commonality with the previous WJS 100 and ST 50 units, but actually ends up costing PACE more! The difference is that management would like to sell more stations and make more of the money on Tips and consumables rather than make higher dollars on the front-end sale.
I'm hoping they price the ADS200 station with ISB Tool Stand at $270 US, but it's not up to me ...
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It is simple:
TD-200 AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridge Iron with Instant SetBack Tool Stand is 170 USD.
MT-200 MiniTweez with Instant SetBack Tool Stand is 407 USD.
That is 207 USD more. Stand is the same. So handpiece is 207 USD more. I agree it should be more it's more complicated to make. But 100 USD more would be OK. 207 USD is simply too much of a difference.. You can buy fantastic multimeter (Brymen BM869) for that kind of money...
Pricing is hard. I know, but if they make tweezers more affordable, many will buy them.. Even hobby users.
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It could be cheaper I agree but it's more of a niche tool than the soldering iron is. Wait until you buy a few sets of tweezer tips and feel the slow burn.
For the Hakko FX888D tweezers they start at $55 list upwards per pair. That is for regular non cartridge slow-swap tips for 65W tweezers. Two pairs of tips are the same price as the entire soldering station and iron. Needless to say the performance/dollar value is pretty low there.
Edit:
You need to buy the Hakko FX203 dual channel station to run their mini tweezers. It's $450 (480 list) without tools, plastic tweezers are bit more expensive than the Pace MT100 at $260 (270 list). Tips start at about $65 (75 list).
Anyway I hope that cheers you up that others out there have also brought expensive tweezers.
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- Weller WXMT-MS (https://www.tequipment.net/Weller/0051320399/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/?v=118032) with tips and stand $265 US
- Hakko FM2023-05 (https://www.tequipment.net/HakkoFM2023-05.html?v=118032) with tips, set-back stand $300 US
- Metcal CV-UK4-UFT (https://www.tequipment.net/Metcal/CV-UK4-UFT/Soldering-Tweezers/?v=118032) no tips with stand $330 ($385 with tips)
- Pace MT200 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6993-0321-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/?search=true) with tips and set-back stand $390
I will assume that when the set of MT200 + base is in stock they will drop the $700 to ~$560. Which is probably by far the cheapest you can find a base + tweezer of this quality. But its just not the "deal" that the ADS200 is.
management would like to sell more stations and make more of the money on Tips and consumables rather than make higher dollars on the front-end sale.
If they are making a lot of money off of $14 tips, I can't even imagine the money JBC is raking in with their $60+ tips that are notoriously fragile ;D
It could be cheaper I agree but it's more of a niche tool than the soldering iron is. Wait until you buy a few sets of tweezer tips and feel the slow burn.
For the Hakko FX888D tweezers they start at $55 list upwards per pair. That is for regular non cartridge slow-swap tips for 65W tweezers. Two pairs of tips are the same price as the entire soldering station and iron. Needless to say the performance/dollar value is pretty low there.
I agree its niche, but anyway.
Hakko T9 (https://www.tequipment.net/HakkoT9SeriesTips.html) tips are $56, Pace MT200 tips are $50. Its not really much difference. They are both fast swap.
FX888 tweezers are low-tier, not comparable to the pace imo.
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hello,
I just tested 12 brand new tips on my new ADS 200 with a Hakko FG-100 that I purchased off of Ebay. The FG-100 had calibration stickers covering one of the screw holes, but I went ahead and removed them to open the unit and confirm that it had the F/C jumper inside--which it did.
I then tested w/a brand new 191-212 sensor and I averaged from 430°F up to 450°F, but none of them ever got close to 500°. So, on a good note, it looks like all the new tips are ok, but on the other hand, are those temperatures an acceptable result?
I also ordered a FG-100 knockoff for comparison purposes from Ebay, which should be here in a few weeks, I'll re-do the tests again in °C, since the clones don't seem to do Fahrenheit.
For each tip, i liberally applied solder (Cardas Quad-Eutectic), then placed the on the center of the three leads until it stabilized.
Before proceeding w/further tests I wanted to confirm if that is normal behavior or what exactly I should be looking for. Also, I'll have the 2nd clone tester to confirm temps soon.
Here are the list of tips:
P/N 1130-0015-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30°
P/N 1131-0008-P1 3/64" 30° Chisel (1.20mm)
P/N 1131-0019-P1 1/16" 30° Chisel (1.59mm)
P/N 1131-0010-P1 13/64" Chisel (5.15mm)
P/N 1131-0037-P1 1/4" Flat Blade (6.35mm)
P/N 1131-0012-P1 1/32" 30° Chisel (0.80mm)
P/N 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm)
P/N 1131-0051-P1 1/8" 30° Chisel (3.18mm)
P/N 1131-0032-P1 MiniWave (3.05mm)
P/N 1131-0003-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30° (0.40mm)
P/N 1131-0001-P1 1/32" Conical Sharp Ext. (0.80mm)
P/N 1131-0054-P1 3/16" Chisel (4.78mm)
P/N 1131-0057-P1 5/16" Chisel (7.95mm)
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I think you mean Accudrive series, Paces tools are series compatible. I don't recall Pace saying the MT200 was low cost.
No, but it's clearly part of the Accudrive serious and uses the same ADS200 base station. So there is reasonable expectation there.
Most people who brought their Pace ADS200 paid under $250 in the US. The tweezers and stand are $365 at tequipment.net after eevblog discount so that would mean *both tools* and station for $615 (or about $655 if you paid the current full list from TE today).
Yeah but then you have the switch tools with the one station and that's a PITA.
Most people (myself included) are going to want another ADS200 to drive just the tweezers.
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No, but it's clearly part of the Accudrive serious and uses the same ADS200 base station. So there is reasonable expectation there.
I don't think anyone was discussing the price of the MT200. In my opinion it's got to be at least 3x as much to make than the TD200 you can tell that just looking at it. When Aaron said that the MT200 was going to cost more than the old model I knew it was likely going to be more than the cost of the ADS200/TD200 at the time.
Why was the ADS200/TD200 ISB selling for about $225? It was triple discounted. Pace had a low introductory list price $265, tequipment was selling it on special and we had the eevblog 6% discount code on top.
That ended up being about $40 cheaper than list and now that Pace are not discounting the list price it's increased about $30. The total apparent savings was about $70 off a $295 station and iron.
On Tequipments website it clearly showed the discounted price and Aaron posted Paces list prices here several times. So no conspiracy theories. :D
Most people (myself included) are going to want another ADS200 to drive just the tweezers.
I'm sure they will sell the station separately at some point as they have in the past but it's up to Pace. I expect there will be at least 5 different Accudrive station models at a minimum.
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I then tested w/a brand new 191-212 sensor and I averaged from 430°F up to 450°F, but none of them ever got close to 500°. So, on a good note, it looks like all the new tips are ok, but on the other hand, are those temperatures an acceptable result?
So you measured 430-450, but what was the iron set to?
Sounds reasonable, depending on what tips you measured low with. The smaller tips will be difficult to get enough thermal conductivity so the heat transfer to the thermocouple can be less. This is basically unavoidable when you have a separate heater element coupled to the tip that cannot extend to the end of it.
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thm_w,
sorry for leaving that part out.
the ADS200 was set to 500F. I had thought that the bigger tips would get close to that temperature, but they only seemed to about 450F.
Is the key point that the tips should all be in a similar range, w/the smaller ones lower temps than the larger ones, vs every tip matching the temperature of the station setting?
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thm_w,
sorry for leaving that part out.
the ADS200 was set to 500F. I had thought that the bigger tips would get close to that temperature, but they only seemed to about 450F.
Is the key point that the tips should all be in a similar range, w/the smaller ones lower temps than the larger ones, vs every tip matching the temperature of the station setting?
That seems far off. It could be your measurement device is not accurate, tip is not making good contact with thermocouple, or there is a calibration issue with the station.
Correct on the second point. Most tips should be quite close but a very thin or long tip can be lower. Unless there is some magic they've managed to implement.
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I bought a Pace ADS200 station and it came in today. The unit is really nice. But one thing really makes me upset was the way it was packaged. The main unit, which is very heavy(a good thing), was unsecured in it's cardboard compartment and tossed around. It tossed around so much it tore one of the walls of the cardboard compartment and bent the cardboard compartment roof lid some. There was no bubble wrap.
This is a really nice unit, but for $315(got the tips with it) I feel like it should of been packaged properly not to be tossed around during shipping.
Is this normal for Pace to ship the ADS200 like this? Anyone else have the same experience?
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It sounds like yours had a rough time with delivery as mine were ok. If you want to send Pace feedback you can email support@paceworldwide.com with some photos.
My stations didn't have bubble wrap around them, just plastic with the compartmentalized cardboard. If yours was really messed up it probably did its job at some point. Mine were similar to what you see here, the cardboard acts as a dampener so don't expect it to come out looking perfect.
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Mine came pretty much picture perfect, with no distortion at all..
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I was looking again and I see that there are two cardboard straps that hold the solder station up in the air to keep it from getting impacts from the ground. Those tore also.
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I am on the fence between this and Hakko. What is instant setback stand ? Does the station go to sleep without it ?
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I am on the fence between this and Hakko. What is instant setback stand ? Does the station go to sleep without it ?
It's better than Hakko..
ISB stand is there so it can instantly know when you put it on/off stand.
Without it it will also go to auto standby, but ISB stand is more important for instant resume when you lift it from stand.
Without ISB stand, you need to either touch buttons on station, or dip it in damp sponge to create thermal shock for station to detect activity, to start heating at full power again. With ISB cubby, you simply lift it, and by the time you get iron close to position to solder it is up to temp...
Price difference is not that big, I wouldn't get one without ISB.
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For me the price difference would be around $70. But looking at the videos I assumed I can hack something together: https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=380
Does anyone know what kind of sensor is it ?
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Here is a quick guide to the differences:
Pace ADS200 (120W power)
All metal construction station, stand and handpiece, easy to use interface, clear and easy to read display, cheap and reliable tips which come in two series standard, and ultra (which have more mass). The handpiece is made from one piece of extruded aluminum, it's very robust, cool running and swapping tips is easy. Pace just released new MT200 tweezers for the station.
Hakko FX951 (75W power)
Plastic station, part metal stand, plastic handpiece, poor interface, small display, tips ok reliability but more expensive than Pace. Only takes standard tips. Handpiece is overly complex and feels like it could easily break while swapping tips. They have a dumb tip swapping method which requires you to buy more (dirt absorbing) sponge/plastic sleeves so there is a hidden expense. Has a key card system that will lock you out if you lose it and it sits right below buttons, the station beeps at you as well, both of these features are quite annoying. No tweezers run on the FX951.
So in summary there is no real reason you would buy the Hakko. The Pace is faster, more powerful, cheaper to run and easier to use.
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For me the price difference would be around $70. But looking at the videos I assumed I can hack something together: https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=380 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=380)
Does anyone know what kind of sensor is it ?
If you are talking about the instant setback it's a micro switch and the cable attaches to the rear of the station. It's been discussed a few times in this thread and people have DIYed them. If you go back a few pages you can find photos.
If you are in the US look at buying from tequipment.net as eevblog gets a 6% discount code (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/). The price difference with the instant setback stand version is $20 at the moment. TE also do free shipping so if you buy the station and the tips together at the one place it should be the cheapest.
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For me the price difference would be around $70. But looking at the videos I assumed I can hack something together: https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=380
Does anyone know what kind of sensor is it ?
In post #1233, a member showed how to use a simple low cost sensor module you can get on ebay for less than a dollar.
https://bit.ly/2WYR16X
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Thanks, just placed an order.I think for the amount of work I do once in a while, a KSGER or other hakko clone would be more than enough but I though I would loose a discussion about ethics.
Back to the point, from the schematic it looks like any on/off switch would do either mechanical or optical, even maybe extrasensorial. Shouldn't be a problem.
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In that case, the Pace will literally last you a lifetime. (I’ve never even heard of a Pace station failing, even when severely abused!) Good choice!
I’m trying to figure out how to justify getting one for myself, despite having a perfectly adequate Ersa station already! 😂
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If buying the ADS200 today can use ebays 20% off coupon: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-ADS200-AccuDrive-Production-Soldering-Station-8007-0578/184278679885 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-ADS200-AccuDrive-Production-Soldering-Station-8007-0578/184278679885)
Should come to ~$192 shipped in the US.
Hakko FX951 (75W power)
Plastic station, part metal stand, plastic handpiece, poor interface, small display, tips ok reliability but more expensive than Pace. Only takes standard tips. Handpiece is overly complex and feels like it could easily break while swapping tips. They have a dumb tip swapping method which requires you to buy more (dirt absorbing) sponge/plastic sleeves so there is a hidden expense. Has a key card system that will lock you out if you lose it and it sits right below buttons, the station beeps at you as well, both of these features are quite annoying. No tweezers run on the FX951.
So in summary there is no real reason you would buy the Hakko. The Pace is faster, more powerful, cheaper to run and easier to use.
Not a hakko fanboy especially their handle, and I agree I'd buy the ADS.
But I've used handpieces for years without issue, and I'm not sure why swapping the tip requires buying foam sleeves? If you are talking about the grip its made of some kind of rubber, it doesn't get dirty. Its possible to pop the top of the Hakko handle off, then grab the base of the tip to remove it, no sponge or tools are required at all. Compared to Pace/metcal where you need a silicone mat to grab the hot tip.
Hakko tips are much cheaper than Pace if you get the clones, or similar price for genuine ($15 (https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/american-hakko-products-inc/T15-D12/6228885)). Of course the more advanced T12 tips are more expensive, thats where Pace is cheaper. Quality of Pace tips is likely higher.
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If buying the ADS200 today can use ebays 20% off coupon: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-ADS200-AccuDrive-Production-Soldering-Station-8007-0578/184278679885 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pace-ADS200-AccuDrive-Production-Soldering-Station-8007-0578/184278679885)
Should come to ~$192 shipped in the US.
I just tried eBay's Memorial Day 20% discount code. Sadly, it doesn't work for the ADS200 linked above. That would have been a screaming deal...
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Yes, that's where I bought my from yesterday. No dice with the coupon though. The price is good anyway.
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Here is another project to make yourself an instant setback caddy if anyone is interested:
https://getgui.com/blog/diy/pace-instant-setback-cubby-simple-led-light-sensor-switch-circuit/
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I just tried eBay's Memorial Day 20% discount code. Sadly, it doesn't work for the ADS200 linked above. That would have been a screaming deal...
Thanks, I should have read closer.. coupon was for select sellers.. Hopefully they will have some more 15-20% off general use coupons in the future.
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I wouldn't like to leave anyone with the impression that the sleeve system on the Hakko handpieces is either handy or well thought out. Even the Chinese don't want to copy it. :)
Believe it or not the Pace tip tool even though the name implies extra work, is in my opinion the best method out there. JBC users might disagree but put a few similar tips face down in their stand and the convenience is lost. With Metcal you had to turn off the stations, other stations have sleeves and collars.
Pace has keyed cartridge tips and it's still incredibly easy with the tip tool.
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I painstakingly went through I think all available here options. Most hobby level stations and irons are cheaper. But unless you are excited about new purchases often the ADS200 still comes on top.
KSGER: Questionable quality, which actually can kill you. Not grounded chassis, mains lugs are soldered directly to the PCB so they also act as a mechanical fixture... something I do not want to be bothered with when I am soldering. Besides an ethical issue about "borrowing" Hakko cartridges.
TS100. seems a bit flaky but again a good option if you plan to upgrade in a yer or two to what is better then.
TS80. Cartridges are $30 and very sparce. In long term the price difference will vanish if not get negative. I am also not sure on long term reliability.
All kind of direct Hakko clones I discarded without even looking.
I am left with Hakko 951 which is a toss but ADS is more powerful and much more user friendly.
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Here is another project to make yourself an instant setback caddy if anyone is interested:
https://getgui.com/blog/diy/pace-instant-setback-cubby-simple-led-light-sensor-switch-circuit/
The Arduino sensor module seems like the simplest solution, though I haven't tried it.
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So here it is, I think it is a beauty :-) Definitely all metal makes it so much different from the contemporary oversees, wink wink :-) stuff.
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Hello,
First post from long time lurker, recently signed up.
I am a hobbyist, and I was looking for a replacement for my low end Weller station. I fairly quickly zero-ed in on the Pace ADS200; after reading all 55(!) pages here, it seemed to tick all the boxes once I got past sticker shock. I felt glad I wasn't one of those early adopters back in 2018. I had originally intended to spend about AU$250, but ended up spending a bit over AU$600 on the Pace from the Australian distributor after adding a few tips to the order.
As the postie put the package down, I could hear an ominous rattle. Sure enough, as I picked it up, "rattle rattle rattle, popcorn sack". It turns out that they had just chucked the tips in and they were floating in the breeze....they were in their protective tubes, but still not something I would've done.
I noticed the box had already been opened and resealed, along with the inner plastic bag. I assume it was because the local distributor had upgraded the firmware to version 1.4 (it is 1.4 on start-up), though you'd think/hope in mid 2020 it would be current production.
Anyway, stuck in the 1/8" chisel tip. It powered up quickly and took on solder in a most encouraging manner, and also subsequently went into standby as it should.
First thing which seems odd is temperature adjust. 'Up' with left button and 'down' with right; I can't think of any other product that I've used that does that, though it's just something to get used to.
My first little play was a hack of my computer speakers. I dremelled the amp/passive crossover board as the amp had failed, and I plan to just use 'em as passives. Most of the brittle through hole speaker leads had come off at the board, so desolder, pull out the stubs, re-tin and resolder. Too easy! The desolder went O.K., but once there was sfa solder on the mask, the tip seemed unable to heat the stranded wire so I could pull it out. The same went for tinning the leads. I maxed it out, but still struggled. O.K., you asked for it....time to break out the big 13/64" chisel, and then we'll see what's what! The tip went in with a different feel to the other, and the display showed the dreaded 'CHP'. I was gutted. I have subsequently got it to energise about 30% of the time.
I got the shits with it and broke out the Weller, which finished the pissy little job tout de suite.
I made the decision to go with local distro rather than Paceworldwide to support aussie business, and the price was slightly cheaper. I had assumed that in June 2020, all the tip issues would have been resolved, worldwide stocks of the dodgy tips would've been recalled, and any control unit being sold would be current production. Poor old backwater Australia....
This is a really disappointing beginning, though I daresay I will sort it out with the distributor, but what? I keep sending tips back and forth to them until I luck onto a good one or they use up all their old stock?
I've thrown a tea towel over the unit (part of my kitchen bench is my workbench, haha!) 'cause I don't even want to look at it until I process this disappointment and formulate an email to the distributor.
Do you think in regards to the 1/8" tip, I may need to modify my technique to suit a modern tip? It took on solder beautifully, and as long as there was a pool on the traces, had no issues melting it. The tip was 'wet' but not 'blobby' when I was attempting to tin or remove the strands from the board holes, but unless I applied the solder direct to the tip not the work, I just got nowhere.
Sorry that my first post is a whinge,
Phil
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Sorry to hear your predicament. I just got mine yesterday. There was no seal of any kind but the box obviously was never opened. They just make the packaging that it would be very difficult to open without leaving tracks.
I do not know how distributors work in Australia but I could not imagine that someone would go through the trouble of replacing the chips just to upgrade the version unless it was some kind of safety recall. So I would just call your distributor and ask about the open boxes.
About the tips: I do not think that rattling them around is very healthy either.
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They were either putting in the 1.4 firmware or were checking it over before shipping. As far as I'm aware though there hasn't been any changes in the station. Pace did jump onto the tip problem straight away, may be a chance a few are still out there in the wild. But either way just get in contact with the distributor and they will sort it out.
If you need help with soldering let us know. The old Wellers do get quite hot, depending how to you approached things a smaller tip, no flux or not establishing a small thermal bridge before soldering may have made it more challenging.
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Anyway, stuck in the 1/8" chisel tip. It powered up quickly and took on solder in a most encouraging manner, and also subsequently went into standby as it should.
...
I maxed it out, but still struggled. O.K., you asked for it....time to break out the big 13/64" chisel, and then we'll see what's what! The tip went in with a different feel to the other, and the display showed the dreaded 'CHP'. I was gutted. I have subsequently got it to energise about 30% of the time.
Were these the normal tips or the thicker "power" tips?
1/8 (3mm) is a fairly small tip so it could be hard to get a decent amount of power flowing through it with this type of station.
Although this sounds like more of a flux/surface issue as mentioned above.
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Thanks for your responses. I will contact the distributor about the dud and keep my fingers crossed.
The Weller is a 50W analogue controlled unit, 0-100% scale, which was on "70%" to do the job with a 2mm tip, so should have been comfortably outgunned by the Pace.
Yeah, I guess I will add more solder to the tip prior to tinning, but it was only 20 gauge or so stranded copper. The 1/8" tip was not the beefier one, but I was still surprised that it was just unable to tin the wire until I had loaded up the tip with fresh solder.
Regards,
Phil
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Hi,
You should also consider that the older Weller tips are usually intended for leaded solder and hence have a thinner plating.
The more recent Pace irons are meant to have a thicker iron(?) plating for unleaded solder.
I noticed a similar difference but maybe it's an unfair comparison of the tip plating rather than the irons.
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Hi,
You should also consider that the older Weller tips are usually intended for leaded solder and hence have a thinner plating.
The more recent Pace irons are meant to have a thicker iron(?) plating for unleaded solder.
I noticed a similar difference but maybe it's an unfair comparison of the tip plating rather than the irons.
Regardless of tip plating, the Pace should beat the pants off of the Weller!
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I just did a test and included some detail if you want to reproduce it. I used a couple of 1/8" (3.18mm) 1130 series tips. Tried different temps 320C, 350C and 370C (my presets on this station) with 63/37 rosin core solder.
Stripped some old cable (0.75mm ~20 gauge) without cutting back (normally I would expose fresh copper) cleaned my iron tip and placed a small fillet of solder on the tip face. Put the wire end to the tip and touched it with fresh solder to get a good thermal bridge. Waited a few seconds, soldered a little up the wire then back down from the insulation to prevent migration into the insulation, came out looking like a soldered wire.
Next I reflowed some large lead free soldered inductor pads on PCB. Cleaned the tip and touched a tiny amount of solder to the end, placed the tip to the edge of the pad waited a second and touched a little solder to the junction in bursts to establish reflow without loading down the tip temp. Then applied solder outwards around the pad until full reflow was established. Made some shitty lead free joints look a bit better.
Additional flux would have turned on easy mode in both cases and get the best results. The tip was slightly undersized for soldering the wire (it's just easier to do with a larger tip) but I think as long as you wait a couple of seconds to allow the wire to come to temp, no problems.
The tip was definitely undersized for the inductor pad, temperature and technique were important. If I were to remove the solder and redo the joint with fresh solder I wouldn't need external flux as the board was in good condition and clean. As long as a reasonable temp is being used and you are methodical even an undersize tip held in the right position can get good results you just need to use the solder wire flux to your advantage and wait a few secs for the heat to soak in.
Here is a before and after of the first pad I did. I wasn't trying for nice looking joints but the tip got hot and soldered.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=999817;image)
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Here are some examples of how flux makes a difference when soldering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1cIjXWdLyw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1cIjXWdLyw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2kP0S4T4MU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2kP0S4T4MU)
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Hello Shock,
Thanks for taking the time to do that and post the information, it's appreciated! Time for me to go back to school methinks, and I'll make use of that dremelled amplifier board to do it! I've likely been blundering along all these years with a blunt instrument, (not just me!) and now with a fine piece of equipment, this old dog needs to learn new tricks. It reminds me of a Choice magazine review of espresso machines where they praised the likes of ALDI and Sunbeam, but trashed the La Pavoni Europiccola as worst of the bunch. It is a real task to master it....do it wrong and you will have a truly disgusting espresso and it will sneeze the grounds all over your kitchen, but do it right and it creates a god shot.
And to top it all off, I set it up ready to email a photo to the distributor with the faulty tip in and the "CHP' on the display, and it is now working, say, 9 times out of 10. It still engages differently to the other tips; instead of the smooth docking, it does a kind of 'snick-click', hopefully not wearing anything out over time. I'm thinking that covering it with the tea towel for a few days gave it some good ju-ju.....
Thanks again.,
Phil
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I'd be contacting the distributor and get another cartridge, not worth messing around with it.
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Yeah, I probably should; every time it 'snicks' into place, I'd be wincing a little.
By the way, I never realised that soldering flux for electronics was a thing; I have always relied on the rosin in the core of the solder. If I had ever seen separate flux, I would have assumed it's the stuff plumbers use! So a late journey begins....
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This area has more related Pace posts, so we moved the thread here today. I don't know if the Pace factory has ramped-up since the Covid shutdown, but I'll send them the new link so they'll drop-in on chats now and then :-+
Difficult year for many companies, stay safe everyone!
[attachimg=1]
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Hi,
I got my Pace ADS200 and was doing a test run. I didn't solder anything, I just plugged in a non performance tip and let it sit. I brought the temp down to 500. It would stay at 500 most of the time, but sometimes it would drop to 476 and then go back to 500 without me doing anything.
Also, while I was holding it outside the stand it would do the same drop occasionally(holding it but not soldering anything).
Is that normal?
BTW, really nice unit!
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This area has more related Pace posts, so we moved the thread here today. I don't know if the Pace factory has ramped-up since the Covid shutdown, but I'll send them the new link so they'll drop-in on chats now and then :-+
Difficult year for many companies, stay safe everyone!
(Attachment Link)
Is she head of the Safety Department? :-DD :palm: :wtf:
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I got my Pace ADS200 and was doing a test run. I didn't solder anything, I just plugged in a non performance tip and let it sit. I brought the temp down to 500. It would stay at 500 most of the time, but sometimes it would drop to 476 and then go back to 500 without me doing anything.
Also, while I was holding it outside the stand it would do the same drop occasionally(holding it but not soldering anything).
Likely the detected thermocouple temp, especially if a couple of heat cycles will warm that specific tip up at low temp. Though they improved this on firmware 1.4 from what I can tell the ADS200 tends to not smooth, average or hide the measurements as much as some other stations do.
An extreme opposite to this would be hiding all the temperature fluctuations from the user who would otherwise think their station has perfect performance/regulation during soldering and tip and thermocouple temps are always the same, in reality they are almost never the same.
Assuming you have checked obvious things like setback and minimum temp settings etc, you could probably test this by just causing that specific tip a slightly faster heat loss and see if the regulation kicks in. That is a low temperature for soldering though, and when a clean tip is loaded with solder or you create a solder bridge I expect the control led will flash amber to indicate it's going back to set temp. If it's green it means it's at set temp. If it's off it means it's the station is in setback or turned off.
If you are concerned however just contact Pace. Provide them as much detail as you can, just keep in mind that if the tip is loaded with solder the station may auto correct for variances as it seemingly does for different geometries. I don't know the special sauce so there may be something perfectly normal occurring in software.
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I'm inching closer to picking up an ADS200, and I was going to ask for comments on my choice of tips, but I got slightly derailed.
I know Shock has mentioned the 1130-0012-P1 and 1130-0013-P1 chisel tips, but if I go to the Pace Worldwide website, navigate to All Products | Soldering Iron Tips, then use the drop down on the right to select TD-200 AccuDrive Tips, neither of these two tips show up. They do show up if I specifically search for them.
Anyone know if there's a master list of tips that I can browse through? I went through the above list of TD-200 Tips from above and have come up with this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O9gqqtAMWkMNFm5Baqj6rusK9R6ZHN3FZ12iQJACIUE/edit?usp=sharing), sorting by shape and standard/performance. Note that I haven't added the missing 1130-0012-P1 and 1130-0013-P1 yet.
Another minor nitpick about the website (sorry Aaron!), the product pages for the 1131-0001-P1 (https://paceworldwide.com/132-conical-sharp-extended-080mm) and 1131-0002-P1 (https://paceworldwide.com/164-conical-sharp-040mm) appear to use photos of the standard tips as their main images. The smaller thumbnail at the bottom seems to show the correct Ultra Performance one.
All that aside, does anyone know what the difference is between the 1130-0032-P1 Miniwave® (3.05mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/miniwaver-305mm-0) and the 1130-0049-P1 MINIWAVE® SPECIAL Tip (https://paceworldwide.com/miniwaver-special-tip)? My best guess is the bevel is 180 deg apart on the two. And has anyone (Shock?) used the 1130-0050-P1 1/128" Conical Special (0.20mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/1128-conical-special-020mm-0)? I'm interested in it as something to clean up QFN type packages after soldering by hand with paste and hot air.
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Good work on the list.
As far as I'm aware "special" denotes a tip geometry requested by a customer, 1130-0049-P1 does look flipped but there could be other small differences. I don't have that specific tip as it was listed after I got the majority of my miniwaves.
You should be able to request a list and details direct from Pace. We only have the last list Aaron sent us on the forums here. If you do might pay to also include details about any anomalies you found with the website. There is a contact form on the website or use the support@paceworldwide.com address. If you get a current list feel free to share it here as an attachment as others will probably be interested.
Having a tip the same size as a pin or pad is not always the best solution for bridges as you can redistribute or reflow multiple pads with wider tips that have better heating. Small tips tend to work poorly with larger wick as you are heating the wick, pin, pad and pcb all at once.
So for this reason no one tip will work optimally in all situations. It's easier to have variety of sizes that will be dual purpose. My core set is odd sized chisels, one fine pointy, hook, knife and miniwaves for drag soldering. The only tips you probably won't use for bridges are the larger chisels but they are useful for high current traces, heatsinks and tinning etc. Otherwise all are good for removing or redistribute solder with a clean tip, flux and wick of an appropriate size and is a flexible set for soldering.
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Here is the list of Accudrive cartridges Aaron posted for us in 2019 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2769520/#msg2769520) (see attachment at the bottom) last time I counted which was probably this list, the website and checking tequipment.net I got somewhere around 62.
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Thanks Shock, I forgot about that pdf.
So, under All Products | Soldering Iron Tips, there are 54 tips - 38 standard, 16 ultra performance.
Searching for 1130-0 (standard tip prefix?) returns 43 results, and for 1131 returns 16. (It looks like 1130-10 returns all the MT-200 tips.)
That pdf lists 43 standard tips, and 17 ultra performance ones....
I've added the 5 "missing" standard tips to the spreadsheet. They don't show the part number when doing a search for 1130-0. And I can't find 1131-0019-P1 on the Pace website, but a Google search shows that vendors do list it. That brings us to a total of 60 tips, so I'm wondering what I've missed.
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Having a tip the same size as a pin or pad is not always the best solution for bridges as you can redistribute or reflow multiple pads with wider tips that have better heating. Small tips tend to work poorly with larger wick as you are heating the wick, pin, pad and pcb all at once.
My plan for a long thin tip and a QFN is not to hold the tip with the axis perpendicular to the QFN side, but roughly parallel, and wipe it along. So I'm not just using the tip of the, uh, tip, but the length of it. I've used a small chisel in the past for this, but the issue is the ones I've used have never been quite fine enough to get into that corner between chip side and PCB easily. I'm not sure if this will actually work the way I plan though.
Did you pick up the 1130-0050-P1? I think it was on one of your lists in an earlier post, and Aaron mentioned it was a modification of the 1130-0036-P1 as requested by a customer. Was hoping to hear how you find it.
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Sounds to me like what you want is a smaller PLCC blade. Maybe it’s something Pace can be cajoled into making, since they already have a PLCC blade.
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Yes I have that tip and also the bent conical as well plus others. Use a clean fine tip and flux and either touch or drag a few times down the edge to pick it up or redistribute it or try a ball of molten solder.
If you are spending a lot of time reworking mistakes then you should look at how much paste you are using and how you apply it (such as less paste on the die attach pad) or use a smaller sphere diameter. If you have too much paste on the pad and press down on the package during reflow it creates bridges.
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By the way don't read too much into me getting the special tip version, if I recall correctly I looked at the Intelliheat series tips which share a lot of the same geometries and didn't notice a difference. I probably ordered the special version just for fun. I looked at both tonight up close and still can't tell.
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Just received this station from TEquipment. Are some of the tips supposed to look used? The second one (from the left) looks ok. But the tips of other three are brownish in color (probably from heating) and has some solder on the tips.
Edit: Yes
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2720082/?topicseen#msg2720082 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2720082/?topicseen#msg2720082)
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It is a requirement for soldering tips to be factory tinned, as the iron plating would otherwise corrode in the atmosphere. All soldering tips you buy have tin on them.
PACE tests the AccuDrive cartridges at their factory to prevent shipping D.O.A. units. This can discolor the tips slightly.
See the comment here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2183462/)
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Sounds to me like what you want is a smaller PLCC blade. Maybe it’s something Pace can be cajoled into making, since they already have a PLCC blade.
Would that be the knife blade you're referring to? I'd be hesitant to ask them about a special design since my estimated requirement for such a tip would be just 1. :p
It's been a busy week for me so I haven't had a chance to ask Pace about a list of available tips. Hopefully that's be next on my to do list.
I'm doing assembly by hand, since these are either 1 off units or hobby projects, and work with a syringe of paste and a hot air station. With QFN parts I try to err on the side of caution and would rather put a bit too little paste on the centre pad rather than too much. But getting just the right amount on the leads is a problem for me and I usually do a quick touch up just to be sure. PLCC / Knife blade aside, any recommendations for a good tip geometry for touch up? Aside from that special tip I mentioned, I was thinking a fine chisel (say 0.8 mm) might also work, and would be more (use) flexible. Without having the tip in front of me I find it difficult to get a feel for how small they actually are.
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Yes, the knife. Just maybe ask if they’re planning to release a smaller one. (Look at JBC for some examples of smaller knife tips.)
Otherwise, I’d use a miniwave tip. Remember that especially with flux, the tip doesn’t have to be as small as the pads.
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Here is a video I found which shows a conical being used on QFN. Hard to tell from the angle but it looks close to 0.40mm and gives you an idea of tip size.
This is not the best demonstration of reflow as cleaning and flux application weren't fully shown. In my opinion it was rushed a little and messed around with too much. He did mentioned it's a prototype though, he was probably planning to rework it regardless.
Having exposed terminal edges and lands will make it easier to do touch ups. As I said if you have a selection that includes a couple of fine tips you can't really go wrong. Even in a worse case scenario you can fix most problems by cleaning, using flux and preheating if the board is cold or hard to work on with fine tips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYllE1gnzzU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYllE1gnzzU)
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I managed to solder qfn just with an iron, without using hotair :). Can't really recommend that as it's a bit of PITA.
I feel like the IC on the video got quite some heating, but I understand why he did soldering twice: to get confidence it's soldered properly.
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I just found what he used and I was correct it was a 0.4mm long conical (0.5mm pitch gave it away) tip temp was 700F/370C. Flux was MG Chemicals 8341 and the solder was Kester Rosin Core 63/37.
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Thanks Shock. That's pretty much how I've been touching up my QFN parts, except I've been using a chisel. My aim was to try and keep my selection of tips to a minimum, because I can well imagine I'd end up with tips I'd never use otherwise.
(Edit: word missing)
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So I got in contact with Pace, asking about the availability of tips, and they sent me an updated product sheet (attached below). It includes the "missing" 1131-0019-P1, but this sheet is now missing the 1131-0032-P1. (I've mentioned that to them.)
There is apparently very little difference in the geometry between the 1130-0032-P1 Miniwave® (3.05mm) and the 1130-0049-P1 MINIWAVE® SPECIAL Tip, and it was suggested the regular one would do me fine.
And they have no current plans for a smaller knife tip, but would be open to hearing from me if I had something particular in mind.
I've updated the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O9gqqtAMWkMNFm5Baqj6rusK9R6ZHN3FZ12iQJACIUE/edit#gid=0), all in all there are 60 tips available at the moment that I know of.
Could I get some feedback on my tip selection? I'm thinking of getting the following:
- A general purpose chisel that should handle 80% of what I do.
1130-0019-P1 1/16" 30˚ Chisel (1.59mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/116-30-chisel-159mm)
- A fine chisel. Something for more delicate work that the general purpose chisel is a bit too cumbersome for. I use mostly 0805 and 0603 parts. Either:
1130-0012-P1 1/32" 30˚ Chisel (0.80mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/132-30-chisel-080mm-0), or
1130-0016-P1 3/64" 30˚ Bent Chisel (1.20mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/364-30-bent-chisel-120mm)
The bent tip would be nice, but I'm leaning more towards the 0.8 mm since this is an alternative to the 1.59mm tip.
- A fine conical. Mostly for QFN touch up work.
1130-0002-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp (0.40mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/164-conical-sharp-040mm-0), or
1130-0004-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Extended (0.40mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/164-conical-sharp-extended-040mm)
Same tip geometry, but I'm wondering if the extended is easier to work with. On the flip side it would mean a (marginally) longer working distance and I wonder how thermal properties compare.
- A MiniWave.
1130-0032-P1 Miniwave® (3.05mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/miniwaver-305mm-0), or
1130-0035-P1 Angled MiniWave Surface Mount Installation Tip (2.11mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/angled-miniwave-tip_1130-0035-P1)
With the smaller parts nowadays, I'm wondering if the 2.11mm tip is the better option here. There is a 1.10mm micro-wave tip, but I think that might be too small.
- And finally, a large tip for heavy soldering.
1131-0010-P1 13/64" Chisel (5.15mm) (https://paceworldwide.com/1364-chisel-515mm)
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What I don’t see is any chisel in the 2-4mm range. I use my 2.4mm and 3.2mm chisels a lot, for larger THT components and connectors where the 1.6mm is too small (but where a 5mm would be much too big).
I’d also seriously consider the 1.1mm mini wave, I bet it’d be better at cleaning up QFNs than a conical tip.
I have a 0.4mm chisel (which is almost indistinguishable from a conical) I got for SMD touchup, and I practically never use it. I find my 2.3mm wave tip and the knife blade to be more useful, generally.
I suspect the 1.1mm and 2.1mm mini wave tips would be phenomenal for the 0805 and 0603 parts, too. (I find wave tips to be useful well beyond their intended purpose of drag soldering gull-wing ICs.)
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1.59mm chisel is already quite small, and is fine enough for 0603's.
I use a bent fine conical for small mod rework, straight would probably work too. Don't overthink it.
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What I don’t see is any chisel in the 2-4mm range. I use my 2.4mm and 3.2mm chisels a lot, for larger THT components and connectors where the 1.6mm is too small (but where a 5mm would be much too big).
I’d also seriously consider the 1.1mm mini wave, I bet it’d be better at cleaning up QFNs than a conical tip.
I have a 0.4mm chisel (which is almost indistinguishable from a conical) I got for SMD touchup, and I practically never use it. I find my 2.3mm wave tip and the knife blade to be more useful, generally.
I suspect the 1.1mm and 2.1mm mini wave tips would be phenomenal for the 0805 and 0603 parts, too. (I find wave tips to be useful well beyond their intended purpose of drag soldering gull-wing ICs.)
I actually find a 1.5mm tip sufficient for the THT work I do, which is why I skipped over anything larger. The 5mm chisel would be for larger SMD power inductors (which is also the only ultra performance tip among my choices). I probably should clarify that I do use a ~1.5mm tip already for 0805s and 0603s. It works fine, but I thought it might be useful to have a finer option. Of course another option is to drop the smaller chisel entirely from my list, and pick up another tip later as needs demand.
Re: Using a miniwave for QFN touch up - the person I spoke to at Pace suggested the same as an alternative to a knife blade. I am curious as to how well it works with the 1.1mm tip. I would have expected that there's a lower limit past which the geometry isn't as effective.
Completely agree with you that too fine a chisel is near indistinguishable from a conical. I've come across that myself before, but so long ago that I don't remember how small the chisel was.
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If you aren't doing rework then base your Miniwave tip selection on the pin/lead length and clearance. If you look at the Pace Miniwave videos on youtube it gives you an idea of different contact angles. The 2mm and 3mm Miniwaves are somewhat interchangeable due to the nature of drag soldering, but technically it's always going to be use the best tip for the job.
I'd probably go for the standard 0.40mm conical, should have slightly better thermal performance. As I mentioned earlier I prefer a selection of chisels, and since the carts are easy to swap over it's an enjoyable experience. But if you don't think you will use them any time soon it's no big deal.
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Not sure if this has been documented yet, photos of handle are attached.
NTC is 2.4k at room temperature, slightly unusual value.
Handle is very nicely made. Small flex at the tip when forced, ~1mm or so.
I still say Metcal MX-H1-AV (https://www.newark.com/metcal/mx-h1-av/soldering-iron/dp/19P0097) is the best handle, its lighter, softer grip, and has less flex, but can rotate due to no tab (Pace will not rotate). Of course more expensive too.
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Well you can't just change the handle. You have to use one system or the other.
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A lot of the design in the Pace handle has been around 20 years in the original TD100 but the most significant change was going to aluminum.
Couple of advantages is the cable can be replaced quickly as a part, but looks easy to repair if required. You won't run into problems swapping tips on the fly, Metcals are meant to be turned off before changing. Pace also gives you a tip tool for swapping tips in addition to the silicon pad.
The key seats the Pace cartridges into the middle of the handle instead of the socket so there is little chance of over inserting the tip and there is minimal thermal contact, which Pace markets as "cool touch". Having the tip rotation fixed I think is desirable using large blades and QFP style tips, so I don't see a problem there.
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A lot of the design in the Pace handle has been around 20 years in the original TD100 but the most significant change was going to aluminum.
Couple of advantages is the cable can be replaced quickly as a part, but looks easy to repair if required. You won't run into problems swapping tips on the fly, Metcals are meant to be turned off before changing. Pace also gives you a tip tool for swapping tips in addition to the silicon pad.
The key seats the Pace cartridges into the middle of the handle instead of the socket so there is little chance of over inserting the tip and there is minimal thermal contact, which Pace markets as "cool touch". Having the tip rotation fixed I think is desirable using large blades and QFP style tips, so I don't see a problem there.
Yes the fixed rotation is a clear advantage. Its an added cost to the handle machining + tip manufacturing process.
Agree about the design being easy to repair, cable could be swapped out without much work.
Well you can't just change the handle. You have to use one system or the other.
True.
There is some opportunity to make custom handles if you can find the appropriate connector. The Pace connector is very similar to a standard T12 clone plug, but the contacts are in a different spot and diameter is thinner so its not easy. The pace tip fits nicely in the metcal handle, until you reach the tab.
Outer tip diameter:
- T12 5.50mm
- Pace 4.70mm
- Metcal ~4.7mm
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I just received my pace ads 200 today. I must say it is really well built. When I turn it on though the transformer makes a buzzing noise. It's not very loud, but certainly loud enough to bother. The intensity of the noise increases when the hand piece is drawing power. I wanted to check if this noise is to be expected. My station seems to be working fine otherwise. I don't see mention of the noise issue in this thread, nor in any reviews that I've seen. This is making me wonder if I have a defective piece. I did come across another post on this forum https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-ads200-transformer-audible-noise/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-ads200-transformer-audible-noise/) which reported the same issue, but it doesn't have any replies. Has anybody else encountered similar behaviour?
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So, my turn to join the ADS200 club. My station arrived yesterday:
[attach=1]
It came shipped as a box in a box, so no damage to the inner box and the contents looked pristine. And yes, it's packing v1.4 firmware.
That was the good part.
The bad part is two of the four tips I ordered give me the CHP error. :( I ordered two chisel tips, a conical and a miniwave, with both chisels giving me the CHP error. The other two appear to work, but I didn't bring them up to temperature all the way, since I was swapping between them all trying to see how bad the problem is. I think the problem is the two chisel tips won't seat fully. With the tips inserted in the handpiece I measured the heater pins on the connector on the other end. (Thanks thm_w for posting that photo a few posts back!) The faulty tips read open circuit, while the other two read 4-5 Ohms.
I also spent a fair bit of time taking measurements, and comparing the chisels to the conical, the conical sits about 4mm deeper into the handpiece than the chisels. (The miniwave is a longer tip, and I was already fairly sure of things by this point so I didn't bother comparing it.) I haven't tried forcing the chisels in, but I'm definitely using a bit more force than the other two with no success. With the conical and miniwave, they just slide in smoothly.
My next step will be to contact Pace. I guess I'll have to send the handpiece and faulty tips back, which will be a pain, but we'll see.
Edit: Spelling mistake
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Also, on the topic of handpieces - I think a fair amount has been said about the short working distance of the ADS200 handpiece, and I was curious as to how it stacks up against my Metcal. Surprisingly the Metcal still has a shorter tip to grip distance, but not by much. The attached photo shows a MX-RM3E handpiece with a STTC-038 1.5mm chisel tip, and the difference in that photo is about 10mm. And, that's before I encountered the CHP problem. So the Pace tip should seat another ~4mm into the handpiece.
The Pace handpiece is still shorter though (although you could argue that's down to the cable relief), you get 120W of power compared to the 40W of the Metcal, and the ability to set any temperature you want. And given the difference in working distance is only 6mm, I doubt that's really noticeable.
I still say Metcal MX-H1-AV (https://www.newark.com/metcal/mx-h1-av/soldering-iron/dp/19P0097) is the best handle, its lighter, softer grip, and has less flex, but can rotate due to no tab (Pace will not rotate). Of course more expensive too.
I should note that I've never had any issues with tip rotation on my Metcal. I think you'd need to be putting quite a bit of force on it for that to happen.
One interesting thing that I haven't seen mentioned (or I've missed it) is that the 3 depressions(?), grips(?), on the ADS200 handpiece aren't spaced equally apart. Fitting the angled miniwave tip in , it's obvious that they designed it to have thumb and forefinger in the two placed closest together. But when using other straight tips, this isn't obvious.
Edit: Typo
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Also, on the topic of handpieces - I think a fair amount has been said about the short working distance of the ADS200 handpiece, and I was curious as to how it stacks up against my Metcal. Surprisingly the Metcal still has a shorter tip to grip distance, but not by much. The attached photo shows a MX-RM3E handpiece with a STTC-038 1.5mm chisel tip, and the difference in that photo is about 10mm. And, that's before I encountered the CHP problem. So the Pace tip should seat another ~4mm into the handpiece.
Yes I measure ~42mm from end of metal grip to tip of iron for ads200, vs 35mm on the older metcal. So about 6-7mm.
MX-H1-AV handle is even shorter still at 32mm.
As you point out, 120W vs 40W, so that is going to be much tougher to have the tip that close when its producing more waste heat.
I should note that I've never had any issues with tip rotation on my Metcal. I think you'd need to be putting quite a bit of force on it for that to happen.
Its not an issue unless you are really pushing on it yes, or using something like a bent conical, where the force is magnified as its off center.
One interesting thing that I haven't seen mentioned (or I've missed it) is that the 3 depressions(?), grips(?), on the ADS200 handpiece aren't spaced equally apart. Fitting the angled miniwave tip in , it's obvious that they designed it to have thumb and forefinger in the two placed closest together. But when using other straight tips, this isn't obvious.
Good to see that the did consider the rotational position of the tips in the design. The rubber is too hard though IMO.
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I may be different than everyone else, but I don't need the shortest tip to grip distance. I actually prefer it to be longer sometimes. Especially when I'm working on point to point wired tube amps because there's no place to rest my hand while soldering. I also like the thicker spongy grip on my old Weller.
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Just noticed this on Paces website (https://paceworldwide.com/news/pace-product-announcements-august-2020) looks like the Accudrive series version of the MBT 350 3 channel station is coming.
- MBT 450 Multi-Channel Soldering & Rework System (available early next year)
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Hello Pace Owners,
My 1 year old ADS200 has been working great, but I've noticed an random intermittent fault. The problem has occured 3 times during the past 5 months.
The problem is that when the station is turned on, the LED display is all screwed up. It displays random segments and while it changes you can tell that the processor is trying to display the correct information the LED segments that are lit, are quite random. Then after the station has been on for a while, a few seconds to few minutes, the display seems to 'smarten' up and displays the correct information. Turning the station off and then on, while it is in crazy display mode, does not fix the problem, but turning the station off and then on after it has fixed itself leads to normal behavior. I'm concerned as yesterday's display failure took several minutes to return to normal.
I'm wondering if anyone else has seen or heard of this problem, and if anyone knows what causes the problem? Now that the unit is just over the 1 year warranty, I'm wondering how much of a pain its going to be to track down this problem and then solve it?
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I'd contact Pace first, but one easy thing to try is disconnecting the mains and removing and reseating the socketed IC. It's possibly heat related, intermittent and once it warms makes better contact. Observe ESD safety and the IC orientation, if you have magnification you could inspect the PCB, IC and socket for anything obvious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_extractor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_extractor)
I assume you are on firmware 1.4? Another thing I'd try at some point is take note of any settings you had then change all the config so it's overwritten (in case of corruption). Low chance of it being software but easy fix.
By holding the program key when powering on, I think the station pauses on the firmware version, this may aid in isolating the problem. If I get weird power on problems with anything I usually check power cables, ensure it's plugged into outlet properly, try a different outlet and check for EMI causes etc.
Here is a schematic (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054) that Mbless kindly reverse engineered, the good news is the circuit is fairly simple and repairable. Everyone's skill level is different so just don't try anything you not confidant in.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=803856;image)
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Thanks Shock, some good information here!
Yes, Firmware 1.4.
I've been looking for a service manual for the ADS 200, but I haven't found anything. This reverse engineered schematic is very helpful. I'll be keeping my eye on this, but today the thing works normally. These intermittent problems are some of the hardest to debug.
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Still, contact Pace. It’s always possible that it’s a failure mode they have encountered before and know exactly how to resolve.
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I've contacted PACE and they are just as confused by this as I am. Now I have to decide if I'm going to send it in for evaluation. This likely means putting all soldering projects on hold for a couple of months while it ships there is looked at and then ships back (through the busy Christmas shipping season). Does anyone have international warranty return stories they would like to share?
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Hi,
I have this as my soldering station and it is good enough: https://www.banggood.com/YIHUA-908D-220V-60W-LED-Digital-Display-Soldering-Station-Soldering-Iron-Kit-Upgraded-Version-p-1059873.html?cur_warehouse=CN (https://www.banggood.com/YIHUA-908D-220V-60W-LED-Digital-Display-Soldering-Station-Soldering-Iron-Kit-Upgraded-Version-p-1059873.html?cur_warehouse=CN)
I had a Hakko 888D as a gift which is still inside the box unused... as request from me.
However, what does this 280$ station has that the 888D doesn't? like THE features which makes it objectively better for hobbyists and day-to-day usage engineers in their bedroom like me.
thanks
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Simple, this is not a bedroom soldering iron. It's a bit overkill for that. It's a production station competing with JBC, Metcal, Ersa, the Hako FX-951, the QUICK TS1200A, and the best offerings from Weller. PACE tips are also hot swappable and quite durable. Even the buttons on the control unit are silicon and can be pressed with the hot tip (in case you can't put your work down).
The product you linked has a ceramic heater, half the power, and cannot sense temperature variations at the tip fast enough to be considered competition at this level.
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I had a WES51 which is still a great iron, but wanted something a little more. I tried the Hakko 888D, but I was disappointed in it as I didn't think it did as well as the WES51 I was using. The Pace ADS200 on the other hand has been a step up and has done everything I've wanted it to.
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I've contacted PACE and they are just as confused by this as I am. Now I have to decide if I'm going to send it in for evaluation. This likely means putting all soldering projects on hold for a couple of months while it ships there is looked at and then ships back (through the busy Christmas shipping season). Does anyone have international warranty return stories they would like to share?
Shipping from Canada to US could take a while, unless you're want to pay ~$30-40 for courier. I would ask them if they are willing to provide a replacement in advance, and once you receive it you'll send yours in. But they may not have any on hand, or go for it.
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Maybe just send in the control board.
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I've been asking the PACE support team a bunch of questions and they had been answering them with next day promptness. But I may have over asked, as the past set of questions have gone unanswered for a couple of days... :(
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I've been asking the PACE support team a bunch of questions and they had been answering them with next day promptness. But I may have over asked, as the past set of questions have gone unanswered for a couple of days... :(
Or maybe they’re talking to engineering to figure out the problem?
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Hi,
I have this as my soldering station and it is good enough: https://www.banggood.com/YIHUA-908D-220V-60W-LED-Digital-Display-Soldering-Station-Soldering-Iron-Kit-Upgraded-Version-p-1059873.html?cur_warehouse=CN (https://www.banggood.com/YIHUA-908D-220V-60W-LED-Digital-Display-Soldering-Station-Soldering-Iron-Kit-Upgraded-Version-p-1059873.html?cur_warehouse=CN)
I had a Hakko 888D as a gift which is still inside the box unused... as request from me.
However, what does this 280$ station has that the 888D doesn't? like THE features which makes it objectively better for hobbyists and day-to-day usage engineers in their bedroom like me.
thanks
That is a more general question really unsuited to the model-specific discussion that this thread is.
In a nutshell, though, in soldering irons, it’s not so much about features as it is about performance and quality. A professional iron can pump in far more heat than a cheap one, all while maintaining tight temperature control. This means demanding joints (like those of a very typical modern multilayer PCB) can still be soldered quickly and without causing damage to the board or components.
But again, that’s not specific to the ADS200, it’s how any high quality station will perform.
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Tequipment.net should have the instant setback version for about $263 shipped for those interested (apply eevblog 6% discount). It's about $40 off all up.
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Tequipment.net should have the instant setback version for about $263 shipped for those interested (apply eevblog 6% discount). It's about $40 off all up.
Im very interested in buying ads200 with setback stand but I have heard that theres a problem with the stand pulling out tips( if they're the High performance tips especially) So my question is has this problem been addressed & if not is there anything that can be done?
(Forum members reading this maybe you guys can also give me some input? )
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I admit I don't leave a lot of the really large tips on the handpieces but last time I tried you can still put in large removal tip and stick it back into the stand. To my knowledge it's never pulled a tip out, including an ultra performance tip unless you leave a huge one in and forget to pull and lift, same goes for any station.
Pace actually does this better than other brands, I think Hakko you can't leave the big ones on and JBC has space issues when you remove the tip, Metcal is not entirely dissimilar from Paces system.
The other thing that could be occurring is if the user has not inserted the tip properly or opened their handpiece up and removed the rubber oring. It grips the cartridge body and holds it in snug, so you would feel if you were pulling the tips out under normal conditions. Super easy and cheap to replace, they cost about a buck each but a good system as it takes a lot of insertion wear.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=507923;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=979794;image)
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I have it happening only with huge 5 mm tips, and I find it to be deficiency of tips, because they left back of the tip with sharp edge that catches on. If they would slightly bevel the back of the tip, it would simply slide out like the rest. It depends on angle too, so if you set it in a right place it's fine.
The fist and the last one here on photo.. You'll see what I mean...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1142406;image)
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The PACE ADS200 is $485 USD here from Farnell, and that's the cheapest option with the regular tool stand (without ISB). :-DD
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The PACE ADS200 is $485 USD here from Farnell, and that's the cheapest option with the regular tool stand (without ISB).
Farnell UK shows £227 for me so that is $310 USD for the ISB model (VAT and shipping extra). Welectron shows €325 with VAT for the ISB model so thats $398 USD (free shipping to some places). Not an amazing price but not the worst it could be.
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The PACE ADS200 is $485 USD here from Farnell, and that's the cheapest option with the regular tool stand (without ISB).
Farnell UK shows £227 for me so that is $310 USD for the ISB model (VAT and shipping extra). Welectron shows €325 with VAT for the ISB model so thats $398 USD (free shipping to some places). Not an amazing price but not the worst it could be.
Thanks for your help,I have another question,I noticed that Pace also sells tweezers for ads200,I am kinda new to soldering,so will I ever NEED hot tweezers in your opinion,or is hot air capable of everything tweezers can do(even if not as great)? And do I even need hot air as opposed to just using a soldering iron on everything? I will be using the station to repair electronics of all types, musical equipment,& building things with it like amplifiers,3d printers etc.(I don't own a business though I just plan on using the equipment moderately)
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In my experience you can do everything with hot air that tweezers are supposed to do, but it takes some skill to avoid desoldering and blowing away nearby components. Especially when working with SMDs.
My trick is to add a good amount of 60/40 to the joints first in order to lower the melting point if this solder relative to the rest, then mask as much as possible with kapton tape.
Also good tweezers is a must.
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In my experience you can do everything with hot air that tweezers are supposed to do, but it takes some skill to avoid desoldering and blowing away nearby components. Especially when working with SMDs.
My trick is to add a good amount of 60/40 to the joints first in order to lower the melting point if this solder relative to the rest, then mask as much as possible with kapton tape.
Also good tweezers is a must.
What about using a regular soldering iron instead of hot air,is that possible? (I been looking into several stations & have narrowed it down to pace ads200,T12 ksger,or a Youyue 3600 which is a $200 jbc clone that allows every type of jbc socket basically such as the 210/245/& tweezers to be used,but I can't figure out whether the dual irons it comes with are actually useful if they can't be used at same exact time afaik,or if I'm better off just buying a ksger?(I can't figure out whether buying a ksger hot air station & t12 ksger for around $100 total is the best option for a hobbyist like me or whether I would be better served by the dual jbc or ads200?)
I have been scouring the web trying to figure it out & in the process I've learned a ton about electronics instead.:)
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The PACE ADS200 is $485 USD here from Farnell, and that's the cheapest option with the regular tool stand (without ISB).
Farnell UK shows £227 for me so that is $310 USD for the ISB model (VAT and shipping extra). Welectron shows €325 with VAT for the ISB model so thats $398 USD (free shipping to some places). Not an amazing price but not the worst it could be.
Thanks for your help,I have another question,I noticed that Pace also sells tweezers for ads200,I am kinda new to soldering,so will I ever NEED hot tweezers in your opinion,or is hot air capable of everything tweezers can do(even if not as great)? And do I even need hot air as opposed to just using a soldering iron on everything? I will be using the station to repair electronics of all types, musical equipment,& building things with it like amplifiers,3d printers etc.(I don't own a business though I just plan on using the equipment moderately)
I agree with TheAmmoniacal’s reply above: hot air does everything tweezers do, and shitty tweezers just plain suck.
Given that good tweezers are expensive, and they’re good for exactly one thing (2-pin chip components, or parts for which they make special tips, like for SOICs), whereas you can get a perfectly serviceable hot air station for $50 and it’s very flexible (all types of SMD components, preheating for hand soldering snd desoldering, shrinking heat shrink tube, etc), to me it’s a no-brainer to get hot air first.
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I have a Weller WE1010NA and Ksger that I've use both together like chopsticks to remove smd diodes. For occasional use it works, much less cost than tweezers. 2 Ksgers are much less than even a Pace. Now if you need more power or do a lot of smd work a Pace or JBC clone may make more sense.
The Ksger is superior to the Weller and cost much less too.
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Tweezers are there for selective, precise control on smallest components..
You can get by with hot air, but for repair of small individual components, tweezers are fastest and most precise..
They are not must have, but for certain kind of jobs, great help.
So if you're not sure, skip them for now, and you'll see soon if you do need them....
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In my experience you can do everything with hot air that tweezers are supposed to do, but it takes some skill to avoid desoldering and blowing away nearby components. Especially when working with SMDs.
My trick is to add a good amount of 60/40 to the joints first in order to lower the melting point if this solder relative to the rest, then mask as much as possible with kapton tape.
Also good tweezers is a must.
What about using a regular soldering iron instead of hot air,is that possible? (I been looking into several stations & have narrowed it down to pace ads200,T12 ksger,or a Youyue 3600 which is a $200 jbc clone that allows every type of jbc socket basically such as the 210/245/& tweezers to be used,but I can't figure out whether the dual irons it comes with are actually useful if they can't be used at same exact time afaik,or if I'm better off just buying a ksger?(I can't figure out whether buying a ksger hot air station & t12 ksger for around $100 total is the best option for a hobbyist like me or whether I would be better served by the dual jbc or ads200?)
I have been scouring the web trying to figure it out & in the process I've learned a ton about electronics instead.:)
I’ve practically never needed two irons.
I’d get the ADS200 with ISB and an 858D-type hot air station.
JBC stuff is great, but holy smokes the tips are expensive. (Admittedly, JBC’s selection of tips is second to none, they have a massive, MASSIVE selection of tips. But at around $30 a piece...)
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In my experience you can do everything with hot air that tweezers are supposed to do, but it takes some skill to avoid desoldering and blowing away nearby components. Especially when working with SMDs.
My trick is to add a good amount of 60/40 to the joints first in order to lower the melting point if this solder relative to the rest, then mask as much as possible with kapton tape.
Also good tweezers is a must.
What about using a regular soldering iron instead of hot air,is that possible? (I been looking into several stations & have narrowed it down to pace ads200,T12 ksger,or a Youyue 3600 which is a $200 jbc clone that allows every type of jbc socket basically such as the 210/245/& tweezers to be used,but I can't figure out whether the dual irons it comes with are actually useful if they can't be used at same exact time afaik,or if I'm better off just buying a ksger?(I can't figure out whether buying a ksger hot air station & t12 ksger for around $100 total is the best option for a hobbyist like me or whether I would be better served by the dual jbc or ads200?)
I have been scouring the web trying to figure it out & in the process I've learned a ton about electronics instead.:)
I’ve practically never needed two irons.
I’d get the ADS200 with ISB and an 858D-type hot air station.
JBC stuff is great, but holy smokes the tips are expensive. (Admittedly, JBC’s selection of tips is second to none, they have a massive, MASSIVE selection of tips. But at around $30 a piece...)
So would you say the Ads200 is worth it at 4-5x the cost of the ksger(keeping in mind I'm a hobbyist) ? I know the ksger requires work to make it safe & it has no guarantee of quality with cheap components,but what other downsides does it have to the pace? (Aside from the pace built like a tank)(I know the hakko tips are more expensive too,but I've heard the fake tips work well too & cost as much as the pace tips?)
Anyone else maybe can give feedback,I don't want to derail this thread but it is about pace ads200,so I figured it should add to the discussion if we get into whether the Pace stations performance is worth 4x more than the ksger?(I know its down to preference but does everyone here think the Pace is worth so much more even for non pros?)
(I know the quality of the pace last a lifetime)
I also wonder whether there's ever a situation where the ksger can better suit a hobbyist?
Is the ksger type solderers chinese junk or just halfway junk?(junk to me means it breaks quickly on average or has poor performance compared to Ads 200.)
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I have a Weller WE1010NA and Ksger that I've use both together like chopsticks to remove smd diodes. For occasional use it works, much less cost than tweezers. 2 Ksgers are much less than even a Pace. Now if you need more power or do a lot of smd work a Pace or JBC clone may make more sense.
The Ksger is superior to the Weller and cost much less too.
My mistake,I just seen your reply before I commented last & it seems like you kindve already answered my question but can you please elaborate a bit more in relation to what I asked in my last comment? Thanks so much to everybody here,I feel lucky to have found such a knowledgeable forum of ppl)
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If you're going to keep it for 20 years than ADS200 is worth the money, even for hobby.
After years, most of the price goes to tips anyways, that is why JBC is expensive (not to buy but to keep running, and also tips are not very long lasting).
Pace tips (originals) are 10-15 € , and last quite long.
And station is built like tank, it will last forever...
If you're not sure whether you'll keep the hobby, I wouldn't spend much money on it in general..
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I have a Weller WE1010NA and Ksger that I've use both together like chopsticks to remove smd diodes. For occasional use it works, much less cost than tweezers. 2 Ksgers are much less than even a Pace. Now if you need more power or do a lot of smd work a Pace or JBC clone may make more sense.
The Ksger is superior to the Weller and cost much less too.
My mistake,I just seen your reply before I commented last & it seems like you kindve already answered my question but can you please elaborate a bit more in relation to what I asked in my last comment? Thanks so much to everybody here,I feel lucky to have found such a knowledgeable forum of ppl)
I like the Ksger better than the Weller because of the faster warmup time and wake from sleep and much easier to change the tips. The Weller's sleep and wakeup is almost unusable. It has to be set to stay awake for a long time. Otherwise it just piss me off because often I go to solder a joint and wonder why it isn't working. Oh, it has to wakeup and that takes too long. Whereas the Ksger is so fast it could sleep every time I put it into the holder and it would be OK for me most of the time.
My Ksger work pretty much as expected expect for the buzzer doesn't seem to work. I don't care about that. I did make the safety mods of grounding the case and adding more clearance between the PCB and heatsink. That said I added a fuse to the primary on the Weller because of the hysteria that Dave Jones rambled about. Probably not needed because it is highly unlikely I would ever plug it into 240v outlet vs the 120v like Dave did. :) I have read about some Ksger examples being faulty from day one. So I brought mine from Amazon so I could returned it easier if I was unlucky. I could have paid less getting one from China but I didn't want the possible problems. I am using genuine Hakko tips as they are not really that expensive from Hakko USA free shipping orders > $25. It I started over again I may consider a Pace for more watts, but so far I haven't found a great need for 120w vs 75w.
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Want to know where the extra money went in the Pace station aside from the extra 45W, cool running handpiece, calibration free, low cost of ownership, warranty, made in the US (domestically sourced where possible), readable display for anyone older than 40? Try dropping the station or stand on your bare feet from bench height or snapping the handpiece, then compare this to a clone.
Like most Chinese domestic products Ksger stole technology, sucked the life blood out of it, added something shiny to attract the crows, wrapped it up in a new small bundle and sell it back to us at inflated prices with less middlemen and state run subsidized shipping that penalizes our own mail systems when we buy from them. Ksger even knows the trick about including no stand or handpiece to make it look cheap upfront as well as stating the smps total power output rather than the handpiece/cartridge max power. Don't think that they could get off their asses and fix the safety issues or defects, why should they when we are eating it all up and willing to fix problems ourselves? Even if we need support we come to a forum rather than deal with them directly.
Anyway that was where the differences went.:)
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I'm finally ditching my FX-888D. Is Accessotronik the best source for the ADS200 in Canada?
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The list of distributors can be found on the Pace website paceworldwide.com I have a feeling a price increase just occurred as well. So get in quick if it's not rolled out there yet. You want the instant setback model if you want stand wake/low temp (setback) detection.
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The list of distributors can be found on the Pace website paceworldwide.com I have a feeling a price increase just occurred as well. So get in quick if it's not rolled out there yet. You want the instant setback model if you want stand wake/low temp (setback) detection.
I did have a good look through their various North American distributors, and Accessotronik seems like the best option in Canada, but I was wondering if I might have missed something. I suppose I will have to make up my mind quickly if there's a price increase coming.
Most of the soldering I do is heatsinked components in flashlights, which my FX-888D struggles with unless I really crank the heat. I'm a little unclear what kind of improvement I could expect with the ADS200; I gather the JBC units would be better in this respect, but I simply cannot justify the cost for what is largely a hobby with some small paid side jobs. I also particularly like the sound of the setback feature, since my soldering tends to be in short bursts and constantly turning the Hakko on and off and waiting for it to slowly heat up is rather tedious. Instant setback is about $48 USD more expensive up here, and I guess the main benefit would be not having to touch the tip to something each time. I also really like the short grip length to the tip, which would be helpful with one of the more fiddly operations I have to do lifting a lead off a pad surrounded by other components inside the lights.
I've considered other units like the FX-951, but the Pace seems like a more meaningful upgrade. This will probably be the last soldering station I buy, so I'd like to feel confident I'm getting the right thing.
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The Pace ADS200 does everything better than the Hakko FX951 in my opinion. Since I got my new Pace stations I also picked up a couple of FX951s and no I would not recommend them if it came down to station vs station, stand vs stand and handpiece vs handpiece, I'd give it to Pace everytime. The Hakko FX951 does have a slightly smaller footprint though.
If you picked apart the Pace ADS200 completely it would be that they use an old micro controller which will be on purpose because they use it in all their products and it's socketed so can be easily upgraded in the field. They use a 7 segment display probably more for reliability than anything. They use an older voltage regulator to power the micro, probably also that it's a jellybean part.
Unfortunately noone has made real clear videos on the Pace ADS200s heating performance on the latest firmware (which is a lot smoother). But this video with the Pace TD200 handpiece running on the Unisolder shows how quick the standard tips heat up.
That is also another option, there is no reason why you can't controller mod your station at some point in the future and leave it still fully reversible. The case and front panel are perfect for modding, about the same size as the Blackjack modded case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqvJTetbqA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqvJTetbqA)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=803856;image)
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Thanks for the reassurance, I went ahead and ordered the ADS200 from Accessotronik. They don't have any stock right now so I have to wait a couple weeks, but I'm looking forward to trying it.
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The Pace videos on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/c/paceworldwide/playlists) give a lot of best practices on soldering efficiency which helps with more demanding joints. Simple things like tip selection and the amount of contact with the target will make a difference. But if you have optimal cleaning of the target, wetting with additional flux, a clean tip and a solder bridge created between the tip and joint, it allows more heat to distribute into the board and has a cascading effect on performance.
You can also crank up the temp as well and there are techniques to circumvent damaging temperature sensitive components such as sliding the component into place last when you have a soldered pad at temp. Just depends on what you are doing, if everything is a struggle you might need to preheat or adjust your process in some way.
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My next step will be to contact Pace. I guess I'll have to send the handpiece and faulty tips back, which will be a pain, but we'll see.
Edit: Spelling mistake
Hello, did PACE help you? How did this story end?
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Is the Pace ADS200 still worth the cost it seems to be going for now? $350.55 USD with ISB at tequipment.net? Link (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/)
Seems like a drastic jump in price from what it was not long ago. Are there better options given the new pricing? If it was still in the mid 200s this wouldn't be a question.
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Price is quite high for general hobbyist use at this point. If you are buying for company/production use, still worth it though.
Hopefully its a temporary increase due to sourcing issues and not a permanent bait and switch.
I don't think there are specifically better options in that class, but there are still plenty of T12 and JBC clones at a much lower price point.
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Yeah, it is for hobby use.
Was not really looking for a clone, but I guess I could investigate which ones might be 'worthy'.
Or is the call now is do I suck it up and pay the price or hope it goes down in the future and not up further?
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Yes it looks like the RRP went up 10-15%. You can still get the 6% off though with the eevblog code but if you missed the special at the end of the year not much you can do but gamble on if another one comes.
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-I guess I'm an advanced hobbyist. I do solder a lot. Sometimes I'll solder for 6 or 7 hours at a time while working on some project.Still...the ADS200 is way more than I'll probably ever need.
-I have owned a HAKKO 936 since 2010 and it has served me pretty darn well. The $150 I paid for it back then was a big pill to swallow, but it was a good investment considering the amount of use I have gotten out of it over the past 10 years. It's still working great after 10 years.
-This week because I needed more wattage than the 936 produced, I finally broke down and bought a HAKKO 961. I've put it off because of the cost of the thing. I do a lot of large solder work where I have maxed out the 936. This is not the first time where the 936 was not powerful enough for the job. Once again...the cost of the 961 was a hard pill to swallow, but what do you do when you need more wattage?
- I did look at the Pace ADS200, but it's selling for $450 on Amazon and that is frankly WAAAAY too rich for my blood!
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Hakko FX951 maybe? There is no Hakko FX961 as far as I know
- I did look at the Pace ADS200, but it's selling for $450 on Amazon and that is frankly WAAAAY too rich for my blood!
Why?? In USA you could have ordered directly from PACE...
https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-td-200-isb-cubby-3-tip-bundle-120v-only (https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-td-200-isb-cubby-3-tip-bundle-120v-only)
Or Tequipment:
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0593/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0593/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
And asked here for EEVBLOG discount.:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/)
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Yes if you are in the US the Pace ADS200 is about $330 at the moment for the ISB model, which includes our 6% discount and free shipping from Tequipment, ~$350 is likely full RRP. As I mentioned previously before the last price increase just a few months back it was ~$265 after discount.
The Pace ADS200 is also a 120W station, as much power as the Hakko 936 and FX951 handpieces (50W/70W) combined. Power increase between those models is 20W, and Hakko T12/T15 series are "standard" carts. Pace uses ultra (like JBC) and standard in the same handpiece, so there are a few things to consider.
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Yes if you are in the US the Pace ADS200 is about $330 at the moment for the ISB model, which includes our 6% discount and free shipping from Tequipment, ~$350 is likely full RRP. As I mentioned previously before the last price increase just a few months back it was ~$265 after discount.
The Pace ADS200 is also a 120W station, as much power as the Hakko 936 and FX951 handpieces (50W/70W) combined. Power increase between those models is 20W, and Hakko T12/T15 series are "standard" carts. Pace uses ultra (like JBC) and standard in the same handpiece, so there are a few things to consider.
I created an account on eevblog for other reasons. It was not til after I bought a 961 that I discovered these threads about the ADS200 for less money. I jsut got the 961 from Amazon days ago. I can return it. It's worked fine so far, but with the discount and the greater wattage, the ADS200 is sounding like a better deal. Can you PM me please with that discount code?
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Get the instant setback version of the ADS200 if you need stand detection.
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The Pace ADS200 does everything better than the Hakko FX951 in my opinion. Since I got my new Pace stations I also picked up a couple of FX951s and no I would not recommend them if it came down to station vs station, stand vs stand and handpiece vs handpiece, I'd give it to Pace everytime. The Hakko FX951 does have a slightly smaller footprint though.
If you picked apart the Pace ADS200 completely it would be that they use an old micro controller which will be on purpose because they use it in all their products and it's socketed so can be easily upgraded in the field. They use a 7 segment display probably more for reliability than anything. They use an older voltage regulator to power the micro, probably also that it's a jellybean part.
Unfortunately noone has made real clear videos on the Pace ADS200s heating performance on the latest firmware (which is a lot smoother). But this video with the Pace TD200 handpiece running on the Unisolder shows how quick the standard tips heat up.
That is also another option, there is no reason why you can't controller mod your station at some point in the future and leave it still fully reversible. The case and front panel are perfect for modding, about the same size as the Blackjack modded case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqvJTetbqA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqvJTetbqA)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=803856;image)
Does this opinion take current prices into account? Also, is the Pace not handling lower temps compared to JBC a legitimate complaint, or is Hakko no better in that respect?
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Personally I'd make a T12 clone but with a linear supply if I wanted the same performance as the Hakko FX951. So no I wouldn't go out and buy a new FX951, the two I have are secondhand so paid next to nothing for them.
The JBC overshoots a little due to it's heating profile so at marginal temps it's probably running a little hotter than other stations, same thing as turning up the temp. JBC and Pace are fairly close in speed, roughly twice as fast heating/recovering than the Hakko FX951.
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Dave Jones may have another tool to review. Boy, an Aussie's work never ends.. Meh, someone's gotta do it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5zB5ZYVoDs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5zB5ZYVoDs)
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Seems like very nice to have to. I do so little work on on SMD, I try to avoid it. But when I do I used 2 soldering stations a Ksger T12 clone and a welder WE1010NA with two hands. The most I've done so far are small resistors and sot - 5.
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hello everyone, i am also interested in PACE soldering system, because i really want to do a lot of SMT soldering and TD-100 from older PACE solder station offers so many tip models for chip removal....i really hated it whenever i tried to remove TQFP or any chip with similar footprint like that (with probably different size), it always ended up with broken solder pad after the removal....
anyway, i see there are a lot of tips for TD100A especially for chip removal tips but i can't see similar things for TD200A...
also, there are more types of cool handpieces (especially thermotweez) for ST-50 compared to ADS200..., why is that? i really, really wanted to buy ST-50 system but PACE does not sell it anymore...
do i really have to buy a really more expensive system than ST-50 just to get those cool handpieces?
and is TD-100 tips compatible with TD-200??
thx before for answering my stupid questions...
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hello everyone, i am also interested in PACE soldering system, because i really want to do a lot of SMT soldering and TD-100 from older PACE solder station offers so many tip models for chip removal....
I heard an opinion that removing smd is best be do with a hot air and bottom heater. That's because you don't need to change tools when switching between different packages. Afaik, you have to use the right cartridge for the package, and there are tons of packages.
So I myself settled on hot air gun + bottom heater. I wonder what other people think.
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do i really have to buy a really more expensive system than ST-50 just to get those cool handpieces? and is TD-100 tips compatible with TD-200??
The ADS200 takes only Accudrive handpieces and tips, it's higher performance 120W on a single channel and the tips use a newer K type thermocouple.
The TT65 thermotweez were originally a Sensatemp handpiece but they run on both Sensatemp and Intelliheat stations with the right connector (make sure you get the correct one). I don't see either it or their quad tips phased out until they have a replacement. The TT65 is also sold with the PRC2000 system.
For the Accudrive series there are about 60 TD200 and 13 MT200 tips so far, only a couple of quad tips but Pace announced the MBT450 rework station next so I expect the rework tips to expand due to demand.
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hello everyone, i am also interested in PACE soldering system, because i really want to do a lot of SMT soldering and TD-100 from older PACE solder station offers so many tip models for chip removal....
I heard an opinion that removing smd is best be do with a hot air and bottom heater. That's because you don't need to change tools when switching between different packages. Afaik, you have to use the right cartridge for the package, and there are tons of packages.
So I myself settled on hot air gun + bottom heater. I wonder what other people think.
i did have a hot air gun, if it is relatively easy to remove smd parts like resistor, inductor, or anything not chip like,but when it comes to removing chips my success rate of removing them will significantly drop......anyway do you have any info about bottom heater? do you know how to work with that on double sided PCB?
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do i really have to buy a really more expensive system than ST-50 just to get those cool handpieces? and is TD-100 tips compatible with TD-200??
The ADS200 takes only Accudrive handpieces and tips, it's higher performance 120W on a single channel and the tips use a newer K type thermocouple.
The TT65 thermotweez were originally a Sensatemp handpiece but they run on both Sensatemp and Intelliheat stations with the right connector (make sure you get the correct one). I don't see either it or their quad tips phased out until they have a replacement. The TT65 is also sold with the PRC2000 system.
For the Accudrive series there are about 60 TD200 and 13 MT200 tips so far, only a couple of quad tips but Pace announced the MBT450 rework station next so I expect the rework tips to expand due to demand.
thx for the info man ;D
looks like i have to wait for MBT450's release before deciding to buy ADS200 :D
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i did have a hot air gun, if it is relatively easy to remove smd parts like resistor, inductor, or anything not chip like,but when it comes to removing chips my success rate of removing them will significantly drop......anyway do you have any info about bottom heater? do you know how to work with that on double sided PCB?
What problems do you have with removing ICs? May be you need a wider nozzle or more powerful hotair gun? There are big square nozzles to desolder bigger ICs.
As of bottom heater and double-sided boards, I guess it depends on the pcb. If the pcb is not flat on the heater, it will take much longer to warm up. But the heater is here to assist (de-)soldering. So, as soon as pcb reaches 90-110C (whatever, I'm not an expert) you can start using hotair to remove the ICs.
So, bottom heater can be used it two ways: 1) as a preheater for large multilayer boards when heat spreads out very quickly and 2) for (de-)soldering if you set the bottom heater above solder melting temperature. I suggest use the first method to reduce thermal stress to components.
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i did have a hot air gun, if it is relatively easy to remove smd parts like resistor, inductor, or anything not chip like,but when it comes to removing chips my success rate of removing them will significantly drop......anyway do you have any info about bottom heater? do you know how to work with that on double sided PCB?
What problems do you have with removing ICs? May be you need a wider nozzle or more powerful hotair gun? There are big square nozzles to desolder bigger ICs.
As of bottom heater and double-sided boards, I guess it depends on the pcb. If the pcb is not flat on the heater, it will take much longer to warm up. But the heater is here to assist (de-)soldering. So, as soon as pcb reaches 90-110C (whatever, I'm not an expert) you can start using hotair to remove the ICs.
So, bottom heater can be used it two ways: 1) as a preheater for large multilayer boards when heat spreads out very quickly and 2) for (de-)soldering if you set the bottom heater above solder melting temperature. I suggest use the first method to reduce thermal stress to components.
the problem that i always have when removing chips is when i use hot air gun, i tend to break the pcb trackpad/footprint of the chip whenever i try to remove chips..anyway thx for the info, i think a preheater is just too expensive for me (or perhaps you know the cheap ones?) and i am kind of hobbyist for this kind of thing so i don't think i will rely on a preheater when i try to repair electronics, because my only problem is just on the IC removal ;D
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looks like i have to wait for MBT450's release before deciding to buy ADS200
Or call them and ask when, but Pace have hinted from the outset they weren't going to release all the Accudrive tips at once. Since the ADS200 with TD200 was released there has been a couple of batches of additional tips released and the two quad tips were in the last batch.
For the Sensatemp and Intelliheat series from memory the TT65, MT100, TP100, TP65, ST100, TD100A all do quad tips, so what I'm saying is it's probably inevitable as the Accudrive series expands they will include more of them.
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About the problem of pulling pads, it's sometimes best to reflow the joints with an iron before removal as old solder doesn't easily flow just under heat alone. Adding flux encourages the wetting action and with solder can make it easier to spot if all sides reach reflow temp.
Tips and tweezers are far easier in some situations, hot air is essential in others. Preheating makes everything easier but that is assuming it's suitable and easy to remove the board. There are also low melt alloys and the destructive removal method, but even that can cause damage to pads if you aren't careful.
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You could probably make a preheater of sorts. I saw where an engineering student used an old electric skillet to build make several SMD boards in his remake of the classic Oberheim OB-X synthesizer.
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the problem that i always have when removing chips is when i use hot air gun, i tend to break the pcb trackpad/footprint of the chip whenever i try to remove chips..
That's interesting, I rarely have issues with lifted pad (but I also don't do much soldering). Do you wait till the solder melts before pulling? Or, may be, temperature is too hot pcb glue decomposes? Did you check hotair temperature? I do at 300C, probably a bit too hot, but works for me.
Anyway, the cheapest preheater I know is this one: https://revspace.nl/File:DSC06730.JPG (https://revspace.nl/File:DSC06730.JPG) . Costs 5-20euro. But requires external temperature control (e.g., thermocouple). Unfortunately, I don't know what's the minimum temperature of this device. All I know is that we were able to make a thermal profile with this device and successfully did reflow of smd smd boards down 0402 and QFN is with no issues :).
There are other budget solutions for bottom heaters, check this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/small-bottom-heater-for-rework-and-reflow/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/small-bottom-heater-for-rework-and-reflow/)
PS ash Shock mentioned, preheater requires board to be removed from the devices, that's quite inconvenient at times. Although, when using hotair gun, I also recommend removing the board, I'm speaking from experience :).
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My next step will be to contact Pace. I guess I'll have to send the handpiece and faulty tips back, which will be a pain, but we'll see.
Edit: Spelling mistake
Hello, did PACE help you? How did this story end?
Apologies, I've had a busy few months and have barely had time to even browse the forum. Didn't see this post till now.
So, quick recap, I made an order of an ADS200 and a few tips, and had two tips giving me the CHP error. I had my suspicions that it was a case of them not seating properly in the handle, as the other two tips did seem to seat further in. Given they're all different geometries, I didn't take that as conclusive.
I contacted Pace and sent photos of the tips, and they were able to identify them as being from an early batch. Apparently there's long since been changes to the production process and I should have gotten ones more recently produced. No indication of what was wrong, but it sounded like the black alignment collar might have been the culprit. Possibly it was preventing the tips from seating properly.
Support from Pace was first class. They sent over replacement tips for the two faulty ones I had. All good, right?
Well, remember I mentioned I've been busy? I received the tips, but didn't have any time to even look them over, much less test them out. I eventually did and they both worked fine. Except quite some weeks later I got to work on a project, and while tidying up after I noticed that one of the tips they'd sent me was a different tip from what I had. I'd purchased an ultra-performance chisel for a particular high load job, and they'd sent me the standard version of the tip instead. At that point it'd been weeks if not months since they'd sent the tips, so the fault was mine for not having noticed it sooner. Besides which they'd already been nice enough to send me replacements on short notice.
And on top of this I'd already used the tip and not noticed! That specific job I'd bought it for was to solder a SMT power inductor in an area with large heat sinking capacity. My Metcal didn't have enough power to do the job, but the *standard* Pace tip managed it. Might have been even easier with the ultra-performance version, but getting that performance out of the standard tip was impressive.
As for what was wrong with the two faulty tips I have? Well looking at all the tips in my possession, it looks like if you're looking end on at the connector end of the tip, and were to draw a line between the contacts on the blue connector, then the black collar should protrude perpendicularly to that line. I can't be 100% certain because I wasn't able to do much more than eyeball it, but it appears that isn't the case with the two faulty tips I have. If that is indeed the problem, I'd guess it means the blue terminal ends up rotated relative to the connector in the handle and won't seat.
Edit: Spelling mistake
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Oh, and a quick question for all you other ADS200 owners: What kind of overshoots do you see on initial power up? On the last job I did, I saw an overshoot of about 20 ˚C when first turning on the station using a 1/16" chisel. I haven't noticed it doing that before but I got the impression the ADS200 should be more well behaved than that.
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I saw an overshoot of about 20 ˚C
Is it only during the initial warm up?
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Is it only during the initial warm up?
Yes, and it's only recently that I noticed it. I do have the ISB stand, but mid job I'm focused on the board and not the ADS200 display, so I can't say it's not happening then too.
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knotlogic
Thank you for your post. So PACE is quite OK in general.
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knotlogicThank you for your post. So PACE is quite OK in general.
I hope they are ok I've been using mine for almost 3 years now. :D
Yes, and it's only recently that I noticed it.
The ADS200 firmware will display all thermocouple measurements regardless of temp. So it's not a problem if you see it go high and low on a large transition temp for a second. While the station is heating tip temp will be somewhere below that as the thermocouple is between heater and tip.
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knotlogic
Thank you for your post. So PACE is quite OK in general.
I mean, it’s one of the brands used widely in aerospace and defense (where Pace is extremely widespread). Just because they’re not well known to hobbyists doesn’t mean they’re not good. Or in the case of Pace, superb.
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Another video was uploaded today. I wonder if they've contacted Dave yet.. anyway looks pretty good. :-+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQPHrYfeq4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQPHrYfeq4w)
**edit new URL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fE-LgYoPZ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fE-LgYoPZ8)
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So today the plastic end of my pace tip fractured and broke off inside the handpiece, which is preventing me from inserting any other tips in. Any tips (heh) on how to get it out?
I know they are meant to be consumables, but the tip itself was functional when I removed it and the plastic end failing seems more like a quality control problem issue than usual wear and tear, especially if it puts the entire station out of commission. Should I expect any help from Pace on this problem if I reach out to them?
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So today the plastic end of my pace tip fractured and broke off inside the handpiece, which is preventing me from inserting any other tips in. Any tips (heh) on how to get it out?
I know they are meant to be consumables, but the tip itself was functional when I removed it and the plastic end failing seems more like a quality control problem issue than usual wear and tear, especially if it puts the entire station out of commission. Should I expect any help from Pace on this problem if I reach out to them?
I would email them, maybe if they are nice they can send you a free tip replacement.
If you see my post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg3189122/#msg3189122) a few pages back, you can disassemble the handle which will make it easier to get at the plastic base. Then use something like needle nose pliers, tweezers, exacto, whatever to pull the piece out.
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Don't lose the oring, but you can just unscrew the rear plastic nut and the socket is removable. I'd be careful and remove the oring and use tweezers to gently slide out the broken contacts. If you damage the plastic socket it will be a pain to fix.
That looks unlikely to have occurred naturally though, it might be an early tip with a tight fit (I think Pace can identify them). But if it was broken before inserting it might explain it. Ask Pace what they lube their orings with when you talk to them. The oring and contacts don't apply a lot of pressure it's the whole point of the keyed cartridge and dampening on the socket.
When you put it back together put the oring on like shown in the photo. The rear socket is keyed so lower the barrel onto it vertically then fasten it up from the bottom. This will ensure you oring is aligned, hard to tell from the photo but perhaps it's not centered properly. You can jam it in wrong if not paying attention.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=979794;image)
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So today the plastic end of my pace tip fractured and broke off inside the handpiece, which is preventing me from inserting any other tips in. Any tips (heh) on how to get it out?
I know they are meant to be consumables, but the tip itself was functional when I removed it and the plastic end failing seems more like a quality control problem issue than usual wear and tear, especially if it puts the entire station out of commission. Should I expect any help from Pace on this problem if I reach out to them?
Bottom end (metal part) where plastic broke off on that tip looks visibly bent.
It looks to me it was bent and plastic broke, and then it was inserted in handle where O-ring kept it in...
Also your business end of tips is very dirty... You are not gentle to them... You might be using too high temperature..
They are consumables, but being more gentle to them extends their life immensely. Not to mention things that you are soldering.
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Depends what flux you use and how often you use the tip to how black the barrels get. If the tinned portion is shiny and can still be tinned that is the important part.
Now I looked again closer at the image the oring has been dislodged into the barrel, so has been caught by the break when the tip was removed and pulled up past the key ledge. Probably an easy fix, remove the broken plastic it's probably sticking out, then poke the oring out and reseat it.
If that blue cap is solid plastic no way it broke just by pulling it out under "normal" conditions. If it was hard to remove it's because you were pulling a slightly compressed oring through a small hole. You could have undone the back cap, removed the socket and coaxed the oring off with less fear of damage.
Anyway lets face it, tips get knocked about and you wouldn't even see a hairline crack. I'd be more worried about damaging the socket. If you resisted the urge to "mince" the socket contacts, a cheap fix.
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Thanks for all your suggestions. I managed to take apart the handpiece and removed the broken plastic end. The socket seems fine and works with my other tips. :-+
Anyway lets face it, tips get knocked about and you wouldn't even see a hairline crack. I'd be more worried about damaging the socket. If you resisted the urge to "mince" the socket contacts, a cheap fix.
Now that you mention it that might be possible. The crack appears to have started on the injection mold "nub" and spread backwards from there, like a force was being applied in that direction. I've knocked into my tips a few times before while theyre sitting in the holder, so I'll bet an unlucky hit which started the crack around the nub was probably what happened.
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Now all we need is for Pace to make an affordable vacuum desoldering iron! :D
Could Pace modulize the vacuum component so it would be an add-on to the ADS200?
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The integrated pump models are larger enclosures. Pace did an Intelliheat ST65 model in the same size of case but it was an analog controlled model and required external air connected to the station..
If they drive an Accudrive compatible vacuum handpiece the same way as the TD200 handpiece it might be possible... but would be a diy hardware hack to route the vacuum handpiece switch to an external pump. Pace vacuum controllers also have "snapvac" which ramps up the initial suction.
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Pace vacuum controllers also have "snapvac" which ramps up the initial suction.
Yesterday I was doing maintenance to my gear and decided to measure the suction of my MBT250 and from a separate vacuumpump I had. The latter did almost 0.8 bar, the Pace around 0.55 bar but the pace holds the vacuum (the snapvac) so the next "suck" starts at full vacuum power. The separate (silence) pump needed a few seconds to come up to its max. And that makes it not usable because you need that "shockwave" snapvac delivers to set the molten metal in motion. It works for normal easy to remove solder in single or double layer PCBs (I tried it instead of the pump in a metcal) but it takes to much time and you miss the "shockwave" . But for not to demanding tasks it works, but otherwise there is to much risk in frying the pad because it takes to long. There is a way. Long ago I modified an old O2 cilinder to use in a FC101 (big LandRover army vehicle) for switching it into the low gearing. I used a electronic valve and that was not a good thing in the car (It switched gears to fast) but for a desolder-gun it would be fine. Now I think of it, I must have that stuff still somewhere. Maybe I can make a vacuum reservoir (Only because of the noise the membrane pumps make. I do a lot of desoldering and the constant BRRR BRRR is a bit annoying.
BTW I found something else, the filter between MBT250 and SX100 was pretty bad regarding vacuum, it reduced the vacuum at the tip to 0.3 bar. (I have 3 filters, I clean them regular. You can open them but reclosing them is the problem. 1 was pretty airtight, the other 2 leaked, so cleaning them is possible but better check the vacuum after cleaning. It looks like the filter material works like a seal. Whitout the filter material they all leaked a lot.
So I made a simple filter from a small but very strong plastic medicine bottle. Drilled two hole,s glued 2 of those Pace split-able tube connectors and put filter material in between. Turned out to be complete leak-free. Not bad for 5 minutes of working. The handpiece itself was to my supprise 100% airt-tight. The vacuum meter did not drop even a fraction after switching of the pump. Pretty impressive.
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Now all we need is for Pace to make an affordable vacuum desoldering iron! :D
Could Pace modulize the vacuum component so it would be an add-on to the ADS200?
They certainly could if they wanted to, lots of soldering equipment manufacturers make systems like that. (I think Pace might have, too, long, long, long ago.)
The trigger in the Pace desoldering handpieces is nothing but a switch that closes. One could, for example, cobble a vacuum pump where the actual air pump runs all the time, but is kept “off” with a solenoid valve. The trigger would then just trigger the solenoid. I’d imagine this would create an instant surge of pressure similar to snap-vac. (I’m pretty sure all snap-vac does is to give the pump a brief 24V surge before dropping to the 12V continuous. That’s what I measured on my ST 75.)
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After seeing the price of the tweezers, I think it would be nice if there were a third parties making desoldering nozzle tips for the ADS200 or T12 irons. Then hobbyists could build the vacuum part of it.
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Could Pace modulize the vacuum component so it would be an add-on to the ADS200?
They certainly could if they wanted to, lots of soldering equipment manufacturers make systems like that. (I think Pace might have, too, long, long, long ago.)
Yes, they had the "Ped-A-Vac III" (rather unfortunate name)
The desoldering tool (SX-25 etc) connected to a basic station for power, and its vacuum line connected to a foot pedal. The foot pedal was supplied with shop air and used a venturi to generate vacuum when depressed.
(I’m pretty sure all snap-vac does is to give the pump a brief 24V surge before dropping to the 12V continuous. That’s what I measured on my ST 75.)
I believe that's right, the Pace stations don't appear to use vacuum solenoids, unlike e.g. the Hakko 470 which does.
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Yesterday I was doing maintenance to my gear
I should send you my used filters, probably get 20 years out of them. :)
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Only 20 years, what have you done to them >:D
I see you have the MBT350, I am probably going to buy one. I heard the pump of the 350 is different from the 250. (I have a black 250 that I bought long time ago. It was used by the Belgium army. I replaced the PS-90 and bought the SX100 instead of the SX70. Later got a brand new TT65 for free. The 350 will get a cartridge solder handpiece with switching on/off toolholder, PS90, SX100, and a thermojet (70 or 85, I have not decided yet) and a bunch of tips. I hope I like the cartridge system. Learned also they have SX100 tips for heavy duty use.
Made a funny mistake, I desoldered a capacitor and wondered why it sounded so different. The cap fell out and I took it. There was a strange ball of solder on one of the pins. Then I noticed it, I had put the hose in the output socket. But it did desolder that way, this way my filters stay superclean.
So for people who have a compressor and want to desolder. Melt the solder and then use your compressor to blow the solder out 8)
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I see you have the MBT350, I am probably going to buy one.
I've had my MBT350 for 3 years now, I could use a second one myself :). I'll be next be buying a PS90 for custom tip use. I use two work benches so double ups of tools are no problem.
The 350 will get a cartridge solder handpiece with switching on/off toolholder, PS90, SX100, and a thermojet (70 or 85, I have not decided yet) and a bunch of tips.
Like you I also was also deciding between the TJ70 and TJ85. As I mentioned in that other thread the TJ85 has no button it's foot actuated. The TJ70 may have slightly better performance but you will need to check with Pace. I liked the tips on the TJ70 and thought it would take custom tips easier as it uses the same set screw system. So even though the TJ85 is slimmer I went with the TJ70.
The TD100A handpiece is quick heating (under 10 seconds category from cold). More responsive in my opinion than the Hakko T12. It sits somewhere around the older Metcal MX500 and uses standard tips (not the higher mass "ultra" ones the Pace WJS100 and ADS200 uses). The Pace ADS200 is the lovechild of both the ST and WJS stations and takes both standard and ultra tips.
Learned also they have SX100 tips for heavy duty use.
I have a few heavy duty SX100 tips. Here is complete set of TJ70 tips and my handpieces in their mostly virginal state. Note that I prefer two irons but swapping Pace tips is the least painful experience I've had. Hakko by comparison feels like you are going to break the handpiece.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=880968;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/soldering-stations/?action=dlattach;attach=667308;image)
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The MBT350 can also setback channels 1 and 2 (two rear ports for cables). I assume it was designed that way for two operators using TD100/TD100A handpieces. But you could modify another handpiece stand to add setback functionality. I tried it with the MT100 (has no setback stand) and seemed to work fine. So you might be able to mod the PS90 stand or your SX100 stand etc. Test it out first though to ensure it has the desired effect.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=501818;image)
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Measurements from the NTC in the handle and its red color banding match up with this one: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/vishay-beyschlag-draloric-bc-components/NTCLE100E3222GB0/2230738 (https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/vishay-beyschlag-draloric-bc-components/NTCLE100E3222GB0/2230738)
Beta 25/85: 3977K
R at 25C: 2200R
Measuring the tip voltage follows closely with N type thermocouple response, according to multimeter. I measured at the top of the heater section, not the tip of the iron, as the thermocouple will not be near the tip.
Earlier in this thread it was stated as being K type, but I'm not sure where that information came from. I didn't CJC the handle and its just a cheap bead thermocouple, but, it just matched too well for me to doubt the result.
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This video states it's a k type at 1m30s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvBAdv3LOfk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvBAdv3LOfk)
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Does anyone have the same fairly wide calibration of the tips on the ADS200?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGaTJmuy21U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGaTJmuy21U)
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The Pace does run a little cooler near set temp. You can turn up the temp a little if you can't get a decent flow at marginal temps. In a reverse situation if a Metcal MX5200 tip couldn't complete the joint in 3-4s with a specific geometry you would have to do the same thing. It's not actually a limitation of the station power it's the thermal profile (regulation) near set temp.
The results of the two Pace tests were quite different. The test conditions the second time around also weren't in Paces favor. You can't just slam solder into the side of the tip and expect it to optimally wet. If you notice in the first Pace test you touched the top of the tip just slightly that's all it took to pool solder there. The Metcal had the most favorable technique of all tests.
Anyway very subtle things like pulsing the soldering into the tip slightly a second before feeding in makes a huge difference, even the surface of that coin will make a difference in some way. I think it's unfair comment to say the ADS200 is not suitable for high mass work. I mean what if it's set a little higher, you use a larger tip, flux and solder properly? I think there are a lot of flawed assumptions in that video.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1234411;image)
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IMHO the use of patinated old coins, tested from different sides (or of different ages; whatever explains that the design is not the same) invalidates the test anyway, since we have no way of knowing whether it’s struggling to flow due to tip temperature regulation, thermal contact area, or surface oxidation. (And if they’re not the same age, they could even be made of different metals inside; low denomination coins stopped being solid copper long ago.)
If the test were with brand new coins from the same roll, it’d be representative-ish. Flat copper discs, all freshly scrubbed or chemically cleaned, would be far better IMHO.
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Dang! You two have hawk-eyes. :popcorn:
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The Pace does run a little cooler near set temp. You can turn up the temp a little if you can't get a decent flow at marginal temps. In a reverse situation if a Metcal MX5200 tip couldn't complete the joint in 3-4s with a specific geometry you would have to do the same thing. It's not actually a limitation of the station power it's the thermal profile (regulation) near set temp.
Not from the video, the tip he is using in the coin test was measuring well over 16C hotter than the stations 370C setpoint. Giving it an advantage if anything.
However, the control loop arguably is "cooler" to avoid overshoots, from what we've seen, yes.
IMHO the use of patinated old coins, tested from different sides (or of different ages; whatever explains that the design is not the same) invalidates the test anyway, since we have no way of knowing whether it’s struggling to flow due to tip temperature regulation, thermal contact area, or surface oxidation. (And if they’re not the same age, they could even be made of different metals inside; low denomination coins stopped being solid copper long ago.)
It doesn't invalidate the test, but its not perfectly controlled. Which is why he has ordered PCBs to do a future controlled side-by-side experiment.
You can tell the control loop of the Pace is not very aggressive. Powering the thing up it bounces between 60 and 120W. Which is OK for most general production work.
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IMHO the use of patinated old coins, tested from different sides (or of different ages; whatever explains that the design is not the same) invalidates the test anyway, since we have no way of knowing whether it’s struggling to flow due to tip temperature regulation, thermal contact area, or surface oxidation. (And if they’re not the same age, they could even be made of different metals inside; low denomination coins stopped being solid copper long ago.)
It doesn't invalidate the test, but its not perfectly controlled. Which is why he has ordered PCBs to do a future controlled side-by-side experiment.
Given that it takes only moderate amounts of copper tarnish to completely overwhelm ordinary electronics fluxes, and that this makes a huge difference in how well the solder flows, I think it’s entirely fair to say that it invalidates the test. When an uncontrolled variable is easily capable of masking the variable you’re trying to measure, I think that makes the test invalid.
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Not a perfect test but it's not like it was deliberately fixed against Pace. Metcal usually beats everything else. And it should because it's better state of the art technology and Pace engineering seems a bit lax.
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I for one am not at all interested in soldering "tests" on copper chunks. I have a 300W soldering gun for chassis work.
What would be illuminating is to test performance on 16-layer PCBs with small components connected to large planes. A board could be designed for this type of test.
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I for one am not at all interested in soldering "tests" on copper chunks. I have a 300W soldering gun for chassis work.
What would be illuminating is to test performance on 16-layer PCBs with small components connected to large planes. A board could be designed for this type of test.
I've just received a couple of test PCBs which will hopefully test exactly this. Not 16 layers, but 4 with many of the SMT pads tied through with thermal vias. It's likely to be a tough test for any soldering station.
The PCB I had assembled by PCBWay was clearly hand soldered, looked terrible and was of similar construction.
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Not a perfect test but it's not like it was deliberately fixed against Pace.
Nobody said it was fixed.
The point, again, is this: When an uncontrolled variable is easily capable of masking the variable you’re trying to measure, I think that makes the test invalid.
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1234411;image)
I actually repeated this test about 10x off camera. Feeding in from the top just caused results like the first clip, where the solder balls on top and doesn't ever flow properly onto the coin. The purpose of feeding underneath was to try to get some solder between the tip and coin to improve the thermal transfer. The camera angle doesn't show it because it's almost overhead, but I'm still feeding into the tinned area of the tip.
The main point though is that the readout is showing 10 to 15 degrees LOWER than the setpoint, yet it's not putting more power into the heater to bring it back up to temperature! :-//
When I get the UniSolder board up and running, hopefully this will show if it's a firmware issue or not.
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I for one am not at all interested in soldering "tests" on copper chunks. I have a 300W soldering gun for chassis work.
What would be illuminating is to test performance on 16-layer PCBs with small components connected to large planes. A board could be designed for this type of test.
I've just received a couple of test PCBs which will hopefully test exactly this. Not 16 layers, but 4 with many of the SMT pads tied through with thermal vias. It's likely to be a tough test for any soldering station.
The PCB I had assembled by PCBWay was clearly hand soldered, looked terrible and was of similar construction.
I look forward to seeing the result!
Btw, which Ersa station were you planning to test? It’s a shame that Ersa is so obtuse about giving review units, so their products never end up in the comparisons, even though they’re a major player in Europe. (Dave said they would only do so if given editorial veto power, so he rightly told them to pound sand.)
(I have the i-Con nano at home, and it’s been a great tool. Clearly not as powerful as the JBC at work, but just as good in everyday soldering. The tips don’t oxidize nearly as badly as JBC. And the i-Con series has configurable heating profiles — aggressive (lots of overshoot), medium (a bit of overshoot), and gentle (no overshoot) — so you can choose how much performance to give up in exchange for adhering to tight temperature maxima.)
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I for one am not at all interested in soldering "tests" on copper chunks. I have a 300W soldering gun for chassis work.
What would be illuminating is to test performance on 16-layer PCBs with small components connected to large planes. A board could be designed for this type of test.
I've just received a couple of test PCBs which will hopefully test exactly this. Not 16 layers, but 4 with many of the SMT pads tied through with thermal vias. It's likely to be a tough test for any soldering station.
The PCB I had assembled by PCBWay was clearly hand soldered, looked terrible and was of similar construction.
I look forward to seeing the result!
Btw, which Ersa station were you planning to test? It’s a shame that Ersa is so obtuse about giving review units, so their products never end up in the comparisons, even though they’re a major player in Europe. (Dave said they would only do so if given editorial veto power, so he rightly told them to pound sand.)
(I have the i-Con nano at home, and it’s been a great tool. Clearly not as powerful as the JBC at work, but just as good in everyday soldering. The tips don’t oxidize nearly as badly as JBC. And the i-Con series has configurable heating profiles — aggressive (lots of overshoot), medium (a bit of overshoot), and gentle (no overshoot) — so you can choose how much performance to give up in exchange for adhering to tight temperature maxima.)
I was planning to get the i-Con 2V (0IC2200V), however I don't know much about the Ersa range, so I'm not sure if this is the best one to test. If you have a better suggestion, please let me know as I've not bought it yet. I still have an old RDS80 at the office, but I think it's quite outdated by today's standards.
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I for one am not at all interested in soldering "tests" on copper chunks. I have a 300W soldering gun for chassis work.
What would be illuminating is to test performance on 16-layer PCBs with small components connected to large planes. A board could be designed for this type of test.
I've just received a couple of test PCBs which will hopefully test exactly this. Not 16 layers, but 4 with many of the SMT pads tied through with thermal vias. It's likely to be a tough test for any soldering station.
The PCB I had assembled by PCBWay was clearly hand soldered, looked terrible and was of similar construction.
I look forward to seeing the result!
Btw, which Ersa station were you planning to test? It’s a shame that Ersa is so obtuse about giving review units, so their products never end up in the comparisons, even though they’re a major player in Europe. (Dave said they would only do so if given editorial veto power, so he rightly told them to pound sand.)
(I have the i-Con nano at home, and it’s been a great tool. Clearly not as powerful as the JBC at work, but just as good in everyday soldering. The tips don’t oxidize nearly as badly as JBC. And the i-Con series has configurable heating profiles — aggressive (lots of overshoot), medium (a bit of overshoot), and gentle (no overshoot) — so you can choose how much performance to give up in exchange for adhering to tight temperature maxima.)
I was planning to get the i-Con 2V (0IC2200V), however I don't know much about the Ersa range, so I'm not sure if this is the best one to test. If you have a better suggestion, please let me know as I've not bought it yet. I still have an old RDS80 at the office, but I think it's quite outdated by today's standards.
The RDS80 is indeed very outdated. I think it’s maybe comparable to a Hakko FX-888, but I’ve never used either of those so it’s just a guesstimate.
The only members of the i-Con family with reduced power (68W nominal/80W peak) are the pico and nano, so I wouldn’t recommend that. The 2V (120W nom/150W peak) is great if you want two channels and don’t need integrated air. If you want to keep open the possibility of the air or vacuum attachments later, get a Vario 2 (200W peak). If you just need one flexible channel, then get the 1V (80W nom/150W peak). (The current i-Con 1 without V works only with the standard handle, while the 1V and 2V work with the tweezers, etc and with air and vacuum with an external pump module.)
Ersa’s specification of power ratings continues to be an unbridled mess, with some places showing peak power, others nominal, some per channel, some total… All of the i-Con series except the nano/pico are 150W peak per channel on the standard 150W i-Tool handle. The nominal rating seems to be for the station in total. (That info is what I cobbled together over the years from studying their datasheets, catalogs, website, etc. But it’s so convoluted that I make no guarantees. For example, the Vario stations originally all had air and vacuum pumps in them, but now they also make versions with one or the other or neither…)
There exists the i-Tool HP handle that’s a 250W handle for high-mass joints; it works only with the Vario stations, and I guess maybe it’s limited to 200W on the Vario 2, and only gets 250W on the Vario 4 (500W peak).
If you just want the absolute basic full-power 150W standard iron for the comparison, just get an i-Con 1 (0IC1100A).
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I actually repeated this test about 10x off camera.
...
The main point though is that the readout is showing 10 to 15 degrees LOWER than the setpoint, yet it's not putting more power into the heater to bring it back up to temperature! :-//
As I mentioned near set temp it regulates. It's a variable temp station. Did you try to turn up the set temp? The amber led shows when it's heating. I can't reproduce your test as you used UK 2p coins. As far as I'm aware those coins are either copper plated steel or bronze.
I'm not sure why you couldn't solder to the coins properly but not all stations heat in a linear fashion. Take a look at "performance-comparison_1209.pdf" if you can find it online. The Metcal MX5000 JBC tested was running near 385C at idle.
Ersa probably wanted to put their station up against the Pace because they knew their profile would run hotter. In JBCs performance test the Ersa Icon looked almost like it was in complete thermal runaway.
Again... you need to profile all the stations and tips to see tip temp, thermal shock to see recovery and if any overshoot. There is no guarantee it's a level playing field.
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As I mentioned near set temp it regulates. It's a variable temp station. Did you try to turn up the set temp? The amber led shows when it's heating. I can't reproduce your test as you used UK 2p coins. As far as I'm aware those coins are either copper plated steel or bronze.
I'll take a look at the link, but I'm not sure I understand. If it's unable to regulate the temperature to the setpoint it seems like the design is flawed, it's a basic requirement to have zero error surely? For 25 seconds, the tip temperature readout is -15°C compared to the setpoint.
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How about creating test specimens from aluminium substrate PCB ? That could be made to be exact thermal load, detailed data is available. And very repeatable
Also I don't know what Shock meant, but he has made me think:
If all stations didn't heat the tip accurately to set point temp, that is calibration failure. It is a separate problem.
Thermal performance should be performed with all tips measured with external thermometer and manually adjusted so they all show the same external temp.
And then tested for thermal recovery, possibly by using most aggressive flux on mechanically cleaned surface.
If there is difference in initial temperature, there might be large differences with flux activation, and most of the time will be spent for flux to do their job. Flux activation is not linear with temperature for many fluxes..
So calibration errors must be noted and calibrated out, before testing thermal recovery and regulation.
In real life we all take temperatures indicated as an rough indicative value. And if flux feels sluggish, you ramp up temp few degrees, or if it seems to be burning you set it down.
After few days, you make a mental note, "for this solder and flux on this station good value is 310°C" and you remember that. Your soldering iron might be 30°C off from exact temp but it doesn't matter. You have good temp because it solders well at current setting. If you solder for years, you will be able to tune it in after dozen of joints on any new soldering iron someone puts on your desk.....
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I was certainly thinking of an aluminium PCB, especially now they're offered by JLCPCB so cost effectively.
Amongst a few other test PCBs, I have a 4 layer FR4 board all layers tied together with vias with a window exposed in the solder mask where you put the soldering iron tip.
There's place for a few temperature sensors some distance away from the pad which will show the temperature rise of the PCB as a function of time with it logged with the Magic DAQ. However the idea is untested and the temp sensors may be too far away or the vias may not be effective enough or there may be far too much thermal mass so it'll be somewhat of an experiment in itself. My thermal camera can't do video sadly.
This will only test the stations ability to put heat into the PCB though. The gradient is likely to be the only usable output from this.
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I was planning to get the i-Con 2V (0IC2200V), however I don't know much about the Ersa range, so I'm not sure if this is the best one to test. If you have a better suggestion, please let me know as I've not bought it yet. I still have an old RDS80 at the office, but I think it's quite outdated by today's standards.
Does ERSA have induction heating??
I think they do not have any cartridge type soldering tips like those made by JBC, PACE, HAKKO...
https://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-stations.html (https://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-stations.html)
https://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102.html (https://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102.html)
Weller has cartridge type tips, but they are not well known I think.
https://weller-tools.com/nocompromise/ (https://weller-tools.com/nocompromise/)
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Here is a capture of the JBC chart I took a while back.
If you look at the whole document I think it's a Metcal STTC036 (357C) tip not a STTC136 (412C) tip. I think even JBC were fooled. I cannot see the STTC136 self regulating 75C under set temp and idling that low under no load. That would be worse than the Pace if it was the case (imagine that).
Refer to the original document it's enlightening, I don't take any testing as 100% accurate but a lot of JBCs testing makes sense. Especially the overshooting and showing no their tips don't take 2 seconds to heat up like they advertise.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=980596)
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Does ERSA have induction heating??
I think they do not have any cartridge type soldering tips like those made by JBC, PACE, HAKKO...
It seems it's fairly representative of "old" technology, the blurb says:
" The i-TOOL „Silver Bullet“ heating element represents the most significant heating element
design accomplishment in Ersa’s over 90-year-history. "
But no mention of anything fancy, or why the heating element is supposed to be any good. If there's a better suggestion, let me know, since it's a fair amount to drop on a tool which will likely only be used for testing...
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I was planning to get the i-Con 2V (0IC2200V), however I don't know much about the Ersa range, so I'm not sure if this is the best one to test. If you have a better suggestion, please let me know as I've not bought it yet. I still have an old RDS80 at the office, but I think it's quite outdated by today's standards.
Does ERSA have induction heating??
I think they do not have any cartridge type soldering tips like those made by JBC, PACE, HAKKO...
They’re precision “traditional” irons. The heaters fit very snugly, which is why their performance is closer to a cartridge heater than to a traditional one.
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Does ERSA have induction heating??
I think they do not have any cartridge type soldering tips like those made by JBC, PACE, HAKKO...
It seems it's fairly representative of "old" technology, the blurb says:
" The i-TOOL „Silver Bullet“ heating element represents the most significant heating element
design accomplishment in Ersa’s over 90-year-history. "
But no mention of anything fancy, or why the heating element is supposed to be any good. If there's a better suggestion, let me know, since it's a fair amount to drop on a tool which will likely only be used for testing...
I would say it’s a very atypical representative of old technology. In use, it could easily pass for a cartridge heater system if you didn’t know it wasn’t. It wouldn’t be class-leading, but you wouldn’t think “oh, this is an old school iron”.
And that’s based off my real-world experience using the weak version of it at home, and JBC at work.
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I would say it’s a very atypical representative of old technology. In use, it could easily pass for a cartridge heater system if you didn’t know it wasn’t. It wouldn’t be class-leading, but you wouldn’t think “oh, this is an old school iron”.
And that’s based off my real-world experience using the weak version of it at home, and JBC at work.
That's all I need to know, thanks :-+
The tips are great value so I should be able to get a decent selection
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I would say it’s a very atypical representative of old technology. In use, it could easily pass for a cartridge heater system if you didn’t know it wasn’t. It wouldn’t be class-leading, but you wouldn’t think “oh, this is an old school iron”.
And that’s based off my real-world experience using the weak version of it at home, and JBC at work.
That's all I need to know, thanks :-+
The tips are great value so I should be able to get a decent selection
Yes, they are!
Just be sure to get extra collets (“tip holders” I think they call them) so you have one per tip, since getting those off and on is not easy. (Easy enough to do it when you wear out a tip, but much too hard to do for everyday tip swaps).
I love the PowerWell (drag soldering hoof) and PLCC blade tips, beside the regular chisels. They come with a 1.6mm chisel, I also have a 2.4mm and 3.2mm chisel.
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Here is a capture of the JBC chart I took a while back.
If you look at the whole document I think it's a Metcal STTC036 (357C) tip not a STTC136 (412C) tip. I think even JBC were fooled. I cannot see the STTC136 self regulating 75C under set temp and idling that low under no load. That would be worse than the Pace if it was the case (imagine that).
I posted the full document here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/metcal-gt120-soldering-system-with-heater-cartridge/msg3587103/#msg3587103 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/metcal-gt120-soldering-system-with-heater-cartridge/msg3587103/#msg3587103)
The max rated tip temperatures are:
STTC-5 = 302 C
STTC-0 = 357 C
STTC-1 = 412 C
So I don't believe that can be a STTC-0, otherwise it would be 388 C, 31 C above the maximum rated tip temp.
and 388 C is not 75C under set temp, its 24C under the max temperature, which might be reasonable. I'm sure there is at least a few C of headroom in there? Then maybe a few more C for loss across their thermocouple attachment. Note they don't state a temperature setting anywhere, so you can't compare accuracy between stations/tips.
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Out of curiosity I just measured mine. the STTC-1 series tips consistently measure 390°C and the STTC-0 tips all measure 330°C. I have no easy means to measure the temperature under dynamic load, but I think they must be using the STTC-1 tips.
Thermaltronics Blue tips all measure 320°C
I didn't have the tip thermometer before, but I've been setting the adjustable irons to 357°C
It's a shame they don't show their test set up.
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Thanks for showing the JBC running over temp in your latest video. Shows how easily set temp, actual temp and tip affects the results.
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Thanks for showing the JBC running over temp in your latest video. Shows how easily set temp, actual temp and tip affects the results.
Any thoughts on how best to show the actual tip temperature on other stations? I'm struggling to think how to reliably show the difference between systems.
I should probably start a separate thread for discussing all the different soldering stations.
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Any thoughts on how best to show the actual tip temperature on other stations? I'm struggling to think how to reliably show the difference between systems.
I should probably start a separate thread for discussing all the different soldering stations.
Just wrote you pm with my thoughts. Yeah best not to pollute the thread more, you should probably start a thread on testing methodology.
If I was to guess how JBC did it in the charts? Probably they used a thermally conductive adhesive or weld on the top side of the tip to attach a thermocouple. By measuring the face down side after that's done you can determine the bond quality. Or results before and afterwards to gauge the effect of adding the thermocouple. Science baby, yeah!
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Simple PACE cartridges are cheap, but the special ones are not.
Pace 1130-0503-P1 - TD-200 Standard Series Tip, .835" Blade Tip (21.2mm) $70.30
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0503-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0503-P1/Tips/)
JBC C245913 Cartridge Blade 21mm $49.50
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245913/Tips/?b=y&v=144980 (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245913/Tips/?b=y&v=144980)
Even the PACE handle is more expensive.
Pace TD-200 6010-0166-P1 - TD200 Handpiece $113.68
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/TD-200-6010-0166-P1/Soldering-Irons/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/TD-200-6010-0166-P1/Soldering-Irons/)
JBC T245-A - General Purpose Iron $69.30
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/T245-A/Soldering-Irons/?search=true (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/T245-A/Soldering-Irons/?search=true)
OK, the basic PACE cartridges are cheaper.
Pace 1130-0035-P1 - TD-200 Standard Series Tip, Angled MiniWave Installation Tip (2.11mm) $14.25
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0035-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0035-P1/Tips/)
JBC C245067 Cartridge Spoon 2.3mm $39.60
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245067/Tips/?v=0 (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245067/Tips/?v=0)
It is good to know that some PACE cartridges are cheap and some are not!
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Some rework/specialty Pace tips are more expensive but lets not forget that many report JBC tips have questionable plating durability compared to other brands. Meanwhile Pace professes to deliberately plate their tips heavily. In the US if your paying around 30 to 40 dollars for a standard JBC tip (twice the price of Pace) that cost of ownership is not going to improve over time.
JBCs handpiece and station are also mostly plastic construction which I expect is far cheaper to manufacture. It does have a fancy display but JBC had some early failure problems a few years back with both stations and handpieces, so not a perfect track record there either.
There is really no guarantee it's a better choice and since it's becoming increasingly obvious that JBC's heating profile makes it overshoot, it's performance is slightly exaggerated. It's heating speed is still going to be quicker than Paces but on an even playing field it's not enough to convince me it's a better option.
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It is good to know that some PACE cartridges are cheap and some are not!
The blade tip is a very niche tip, probably only used for high volume BGA rework. Its not surprisingly expensive. If you want cheap tips you can find some T12 clone versions here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000028650301.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000028650301.html)
As Shock says, the JBC handpiece is plastic injected construction and can be made cheaply. You can find clone handles with similar construction for $20: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002631157264.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002631157264.html) However, aluminum handles, even clone ones, are more expensive. For comparison, the Metcal aluminum handle is $150 (https://www.tequipment.net/Metcal/MX-H1-AV/Soldering-Irons/).
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Thanks for showing the JBC running over temp in your latest video. Shows how easily set temp, actual temp and tip affects the results.
Any thoughts on how best to show the actual tip temperature on other stations? I'm struggling to think how to reliably show the difference between systems.
I should probably start a separate thread for discussing all the different soldering stations.
I don't think some overshoot is a big deal, as that doesn't really translate into overshoot into the device being soldered.
For me the big thing is the thermal capacity, or how much it drops in temp for a given load.
I do comparison tests of this by heating up a copper clad board (doesn't matter what it is, so long as you standardise) and setting the minimum temperature at which is melts. The irons that melts at the lower temp, wins.
Pace didn't like this method and criticised me for it as being "non-realistic", but when I pushed them to come up with a better method for comparison, they couldn't.
Of course it's not supposed to be a realistic test, as you can't compare irons when they are comfortably within their thermal capacity range at normal soldering temps. You have to lower the temp to see where the limit is.
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I don't think some overshoot is a big deal, as that doesn't really translate into overshoot into the device being soldered.
For me the big thing is the thermal capacity, or how much it drops in temp for a given load.
I do comparison tests of this by heating up a copper clad board (doesn't matter what it is, so long as you standardise) and setting the minimum temperature at which is melts. The irons that melts at the lower temp, wins.
Pace didn't like this method and criticised me for it as being "non-realistic", but when I pushed them to come up with a better method for comparison, they couldn't.
Of course it's not supposed to be a realistic test, as you can't compare irons when they are comfortably within their thermal capacity range at normal soldering temps. You have to lower the temp to see where the limit is.
I think that's exactly the point, if you want to do any useful comparison you have to do it at the extremes of operation. Probably every soldering iron above $20 will do general purpose soldering.
The low temperature test would work for all but the adjustable temperature stations, so I'm leaning towards a test which just compares how much energy you can get out of the soldering iron tip, e.g. temperature rise vs time for a piece of copper bar.
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I still think something is wacky with the Pace control loop though. I tried again with a high thermal load and a current clamp and it just doesn't put out more power when the temperature drops, very similar to in Dave's video #1106. :wtf:
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I still think something is wacky with the Pace control loop though. I tried again with a high thermal load and a current clamp and it just doesn't put out more power when the temperature drops, very similar to in Dave's video #1106. :wtf:
Did you try straight dipping just the tip in cold water? Not sure if anyone here has tried that. If you do that and it does not hit 90W+ continuous then there is something screwy.
I can see it not hitting 120W continuous due to dead time requirements of measuring the thermocouple, but any dead time more than 10% is questionable. Looking at the mbless schematic (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054), they have some capacitance at the input of the thermocouple amplifier (C35), as well as a lack of clipping diodes, but I can't see this being HW limitation, that would be a serious oversight.
Metcal will sit at ~90W and Hakko T12 at 50-55W in terms of input power, with the top ~3mm of the tip submerged in water. JBC should as well, as yours and Daves testing showed.
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SteveyG
Hello, if you want to get 120W of power from your ADS200, you should probably try a big soldering cartridge like 1131-0056-P1. https://paceworldwide.com/932-chisel-714mm
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Is PACE hot tweezer better than that one made by JBC??
Pace MT-200 - AccuDrive MiniTweez Handpiece, without Tip or Stand (6010-0169-P1) $331.55
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/)
JBC AT420-A - Adjustable Thermal Tweezer $189.00
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?search=true (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?search=true)
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JBCs CDB stations don't run tweezers last time I checked, you need to buy an additional more expensive model. Same goes for the Hakko FX951.
Tequipment prices:
Pace ADS200 with MT200 and stand = $641.25
JBC DI-1D with AT420-A and stand = $877.50
As with the Pace TD200 handpiece, the MT200 would be more expensive to manufacture as it's also aluminum construction. The tip range of the MT200 in my opinion is better as it has several different 2 pin tips as well as blades. Where as on the AT420-A the selection focuses more on quad flat packs.
I have the MT100 model on my MBT350 and they work fine. I expect the MT200 similar, just with more power, cool touch and some smaller tips.
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Is it that hard to guesstimate the tip temperature based on where the thermal sensor is?(no matter how close it is to the tip the tip will always be colder whether it's copper or iron plated) It looks like the JBC reacts to what it thinks the tip temperature is and the pace is just reacting to what the thermal sensor says.
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It looks like the JBC reacts to what it thinks the tip temperature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ka1cM8KCs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ka1cM8KCs)
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Being accurate while there's no thermal load isn't that impressive(even for the older style tips), it's when there's a lot of heat being sucked from the tip that still being accurate is impressive.
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Being accurate while there's no thermal load isn't that impressive(even for the older style tips), it's when there's a lot of heat being sucked from the tip that still being accurate is impressive.
What being accurate where?
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Being accurate while there's no thermal load isn't that impressive(even for the older style tips), it's when there's a lot of heat being sucked from the tip that still being accurate is impressive.
What being accurate where?
https://youtu.be/scvS2yeUH00?t=604 (https://youtu.be/scvS2yeUH00?t=604)
You can see Dave dump the JBC iron in a wet sponge and the JBC can actually detect the temperature drop to 85c(which is close to what the actual tip temperature would be in reality - not still in the mid 200c's like other irons detect).
Maybe it's because the temp sensor is really close to the tip and the iron plating is thin but it could just as easily be that the JBC is guessing the tip temperature based on what the thermal sensor inside the tip is reading and extrapolating the tip temperature from that.
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If steam is continuing to billow off, which it clearly is when the JBC is displaying 95C, 90C, and 85C, then the actual temperature of the surface of the tip is necessarily 100C or higher, and the temperature somewhere within the tip is higher still.
That makes me very skeptical of JBC’s temperature display.
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If steam is continuing to billow off, which it clearly is when the JBC is displaying 95C, 90C, and 85C, then the actual temperature of the surface of the tip is necessarily 100C or higher, and the temperature somewhere within the tip is higher still.
That makes me very skeptical of JBC’s temperature display.
The JBC seems more accurate than any other iron during that stress test, at worst it was 15c off the actual tip temperature compared to well over 100c off for most other irons.
I don't think displaying a sensor reading from somewhere near the tip is the best way to display what temperature the tip actually is(except maybe during idle without the tip touching anything).
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If steam is continuing to billow off, which it clearly is when the JBC is displaying 95C, 90C, and 85C, then the actual temperature of the surface of the tip is necessarily 100C or higher, and the temperature somewhere within the tip is higher still.
That makes me very skeptical of JBC’s temperature display.
Not necessarily true. You can still have steam coming off from the back section of the heater if its 110C, while the tip at the front is sitting at 90C.
This test would never represent any sort of real world scenario, if we care about just monitoring the reported temperature. Dipping just the tip of the iron in water would be more valid, IMO.
But I agree all manufacturers screw with the temperature display, they have to.
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I am getting this error on PACE website, when I am in the shopping cart and I click the CHECKOUT button... Anyone else experienced this? This problem appears for many weeks.
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Site seems ok for me. Is it only having a problem in checkout?
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Yes, only in the checkout.
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Another strange thing is that there are no upcoming events and no news since August 2020.
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Just tested most of the checkout process and is working fine. I see the lack of recent news and no upcoming events too
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I am getting this error in Firefox 92.0 and Microsoft Edge Version 93.0.961.44 I do not have other browsers now.
What browser do you use?
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I'm on firefox 92.0 as well. What stage of checkout were you in?
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I was here.
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I'm sorry, but unless someone else chimes in, it seems like the issue is unique to you. The shopping cart and checkout process are fine on my end. I even tried loading the shopping cart and checking out with the same items you've selected in the same order and no problems here.
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are you using an ad blocker? sometimes site have weird issues like this with those enabled.
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In Microsoft Edge I have AdBlock. But in Firefox I have no AdBlock. I filled in the address book at https://paceworldwide.com/. I still get the error:
The website encountered an unexpected error. Please try again later.
I am located in central Europe.
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OK, I sent them a message here. https://paceworldwide.com/contact-us We will see.
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Seems to work ok here. You need to accept the popup to use cookies (just like most other sites). Once you click checkout it goes to account or guest login. From there it asks to complete payment details.
I'd say the problem is your end if you can't get that far. Try deleting cookies and cache for that site and turn off any blocking etc, then ensure javascript etc isn't disabled. If that doesn't work try another browser or another device.
I tested firefox 92.0 for you as well, works of course.
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Btw Farnell/Newark/Element 14 whatever you want to call them got a large amount of stations in. I think you will find once vat and shipping is considered etc, it's cheaper getting one locally than importing. The stations/stands are heavy and not particularly cheap to ship individually.
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Try deleting cookies
Yes, this helped me. Thank you. Well, I have bought stuff at many online shops and never experienced this.
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Yes, this helped me. Thank you. Well, I have bought stuff at many online shops and never experienced this.
First time for everything I guess. It's typically not site or online shopping specific, if you tried another browser or device it would have helped you narrow it down a bit easier.
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Anybody else had an issue with the ads200 going into setup on power up every time? Haven't been doing a whole lot of soldering recently and know it had happened a few times, but now it is literally every single time i turn the station on. I've only had mine for maybe a month or two
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Anybody else had an issue with the ads200 going into setup on power up every time? Haven't been doing a whole lot of soldering recently and know it had happened a few times, but now it is literally every single time i turn the station on. I've only had mine for maybe a month or two
I never had that problem. Two years of production soldering..
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I have a couple observations to share:
1. Occasionally on power on the station goes into the Setup mode. Perhaps turning the power on may produce glitches on the power bus that kick the micro into the Setup mode. Would be good if Pace looked into it.
This was the only other mention I could find of someone experiencing a similar issue. It's extra annoying as I already have to swap out the TD-200 & the MT-200 tweezers and I lose my preset temps. I contacted Pace already. Doesn't seem like Aaron has been active here in quite some time. I'd like to avoid returning it if possible. Would appreciate any ideas
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As far as I know, it's a standard 8031 circuit, so maybe something in the reset circuit probably needs to "fixed". I don't remember what the procedure is to get into Setup mode, but it might be good to know when it comes to trouble shooting.
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As far as I know, it's a standard 8031 circuit, so maybe something in the reset circuit probably needs to "fixed". I don't remember what the procedure is to get into Setup mode, but it might be good to know when it comes to trouble shooting.
You need to press Program button on powerup to enter program mode.
Maybe it is stuck, or damaged.
So I doubt reset line is problematic.
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This was the only other mention I could find of someone experiencing a similar issue. It's extra annoying as I already have to swap out the TD-200 & the MT-200 tweezers and I lose my preset temps. I contacted Pace already. Doesn't seem like Aaron has been active here in quite some time. I'd like to avoid returning it if possible. Would appreciate any ideas
I think someone mentioned that Aaron retired earlier in this thread. I would call Pace directly.
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Was hoping it might just be the program push button switch, but swapped another and same issue. Assume I probably won't hear from pace today, so going to live with it until I hear from them or I can devote more time to troubleshooting. Station works great otherwise and I'm loving the hot tweezers
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No problems here 2-3 years. Take direction from Pace as it's possibly a warranty issue but you can try a few things since it's happening all the time now. Like moving the station to another room plugging in direct to a properly grounded mains outlet and try another cable. Leaving the instant setback and iron disconnected and your mobile phone in another room. This is all emi/rfi type troubleshooting.
If you brought it to me for repair first thing I'd ask, was the switch replaced when it was an intermittent or constant problem. If intermittent you could have inadvertently changed the variables and the new switch made matters worse. That's an old trap to fall into when troubleshooting.
If I had that problem myself I'd start by restoring to the default settings and check if Pace had some reset procedure to clear stored config. If it's a physical problem on the board reseating the micro or removing it and cleaning the board with 99.9 IPA is a good start. In other devices I've seen the effects of humidity causing some really intermittent and weird problems.
As I mentioned though take direction from Pace and everyone's skill level is different, some people will absolutely butcher the micro removal because they didn't use the right tool or technique. According to the RE schematic forum member Mbless made, the switch lines use 47k pull-up resistors to 5v and grounded when switched. So after trying all the obvious above I'd then then take some measurements, check ground, probe 5v and the switch line. The resistors are next to each button on the front.
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Thanks Shock, I had already done everything you mentioned trying, minus reseating the 89c51 and actually taking measurements beyond resistance after reinstalling the original switch. I noticed an odd bit of reddish discoloration on one of the pins very close to the packaging. Definitely not messing with it until I hear from Pace, but might get a closer look under the microscope. To be clear, the button does allow me to move through the setup process. I can save my settings fine and proceed soldering. Everything is reset after I power it off. Password, timers, and temps are all wiped. It starts up as if the program button had been held down while power is switched back on and enters setup automatically.
Edit: one further thing to note is that I also powered it on with the switch completely removed and it still entered setup
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I have a couple observations to share:
1. Occasionally on power on the station goes into the Setup mode. Perhaps turning the power on may produce glitches on the power bus that kick the micro into the Setup mode. Would be good if Pace looked into it.
This was the only other mention I could find of someone experiencing a similar issue. It's extra annoying as I already have to swap out the TD-200 & the MT-200 tweezers and I lose my preset temps. I contacted Pace already. Doesn't seem like Aaron has been active here in quite some time. I'd like to avoid returning it if possible. Would appreciate any ideas
I also had it the other day with mine. It happened several times in a row when I first got my unit until I made a change and saved the settings.
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Just heard from Pace and I'll have to send it back :( I was really hoping they could just send a replacement board, but oh well.
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Sounds like the symptom could be a communication problem with the external 93C46 eeprom then, I assume they use it to store config. That more closely matches the config lost/corrupt scenario. I still suspect humidity or some resulting form of contamination is the likely cause. MCU Pins 17, 18, 19 go to U6 according to Mbless.
An interesting point though, if config is only stored or corruption overwritten when the individual parameters are changed and going to the "END" on the menu then up arrow (red) button to save. You would then need to repeat this between troubleshooting steps in order to see if it's resolved.
If they use a binary semaphore until a good read or save of the config is achieved then that may keep pulling up the menu by design also. Of course programmatically it could be done various ways. That leads me to another thought, if invoking the menu via the button while powering on makes any difference.
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Oh yeah, good thinking. Or the config gets corrupted on power loss.
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That leads me to another thought, if invoking the menu via the button while powering on makes any difference.
It did not on repeated attempts
Attached is a picture of the discoloration I mentioned earlier. I already sent the unit back to Pace, but I believe this is pin 40. Sorry for the poor quality. Just snapped a quick picture of my screen with my now ancient phone
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Tilting my head at an angle that is pin 7. According to the schematic, the down switch. Seems poor plating at the Atmel factory, would have to inspect it and perhaps give it "the scrape of death" to be sure. The function of that switch/button (within setup/config menu) invokes setup to start again. But how it manifests if there was a high resistance problem at boot, unsure. I'd call it a maybe, if it was it's trivial anyway and probably not a design or assembly issue.
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Any news?
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Any news?
Not yet. The person I talked to told me that the shipping would be the longest part of the wait, but it made it to them faster than expected. Hope to hear something by Monday
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I never heard anything else, but my ads200 arrived a few minutes ago. Looks like they just replaced the pcb. Everything is working as it should and no more setup issues :-+
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Pace posted this video a few weeks back. Bit of marketing in it but towards the end you can see what looks like a load testing setup with ADS200s and some drawings of a new tool and 3 port station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qufDlYPwEE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qufDlYPwEE)
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https://paceworldwide.com/news/pace-product-announcements-august-2020
PACE Product Announcements August 2020
Coming Soon:
MBT 450 Multi-Channel Soldering & Rework System (available early next year)
It looks like it was delayed.
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I found that Farnell.com offers probably all the soldering tips for ADS200 station. Should I buy from them or is it better to buy directly from https://paceworldwide.com/? Would I have to pay an import duty? I live in central Europe. Farnell has a subsidiary here.
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You have probably seen this unofficial ADS200 schematic...
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https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-mt-200-minitweez-chip-tip-isb-bundle (https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-mt-200-minitweez-chip-tip-isb-bundle)
How does the MT-200 hot tweezer work, when the ADS200 has only one channel temperature sensing and one channel heating element control? Is there any electronics built in the MT-200? It is more expensive than a similar tweezer from JBC!
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/?b=y&v=126323)
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?v=0 (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?v=0)
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I'd go with Farnell if you are buying both the station and tips at once. The stations and stand are heavy so likely it's more economical locally. As for import taxes it depends on your county, Farnell will slap on vat for you during checkout if you're in the EU. Perhaps ask Farnell or google?
If you want instant setback remember to get the version with correct stand.
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I've mentioned this before but JBC CD (compact series) stations still don't run both irons and tweezers to the best of my knowledge. Neither does Hakko FX951 and it's one of the biggest catches with those brands. You have to buy the specific tweezer station or a more expensive or multichannel station.
The Pace MT200 tweezers will likely run on any Accudrive station. They are also aluminum construction, costing about $100 more than the plastic MT100. Tweezers themselves are fairly niche tools compared to soldering handpieces. You also need to consider tip selection and price and with certain brands where it's made.
I don't have MT200 yet but my MT100 tweezers work great. No idea how Pace wires them up.
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Yes, I live in European Union.
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Yes, I live in European Union.
You don't want to be caught smuggling contraband. :-DD
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Can anyone confirm that they are able to cancel / exit the Automatic setback by “holding the tip against a damp sponge”
I don't have the auto setback stand, I didn't think it would matter that much as the unit has an auto setback timer that should reset when the tip gets placed on the sponge.
from the manual,
“There are 3 ways to exit Temperature Setback; pressing the Scroll Up or Scroll Down keys, flipping the power switch off then on again, or holding the tip against a damp sponge.”
This does not work for me, pressing the keys and flipping the power switch does but not the damp sponge. Shame, as wiping the bit on the sponge is first thing I do when picking up a soldering iron.
The firmware is version 1.4
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It worked when I last tested it, make sure it's not in auto off. As best I remember, it won't wake out of auto off without the buttons or power either. I use predominantly brass wool or a kimwipe on finer tips rather than the sponge. So on the station where I don't have instant setback connected, I have a longer setback timer instead and just hit the button.
You can also try setting the setback temperature higher so there is a more obvious temp shift. It may be you are using a fine tip perhaps? I think they had to balance the effect of fume extraction and normal cooling as well so the station isn't so sensitive it jumps out of setback unattended. Try a few different sized tips to see if any difference.
It's controlled in firmware so in theory should just work when that sudden drop is seen, restoring the settings to the defaults listed in the manual seems a good next step.
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https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-mt-200-minitweez-chip-tip-isb-bundle (https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-mt-200-minitweez-chip-tip-isb-bundle)
How does the MT-200 hot tweezer work, when the ADS200 has only one channel temperature sensing and one channel heating element control? Is there any electronics built in the MT-200? It is more expensive than a similar tweezer from JBC!
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/?b=y&v=126323)
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?v=0 (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?v=0)
Yeah, was going to buy the tweezer but their pricing was a bit wild. You can get the Hakko RF tweezers and a used station to drive it for less than that, which gives you per tip temp control. As noted above though they are plastic, not aluminum.
ADS200 only has 4 pins (heater/thermocouple, NTC, ground, earth) so its not possible for them to monitor multiple thermocouple connections.
You can parallel two thermocouples to get the average temperature, so I suspect that is what they've done.
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Did someone try to download the firmware from ADS200's microcontroller?
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Has anyone swapped out the cable on the td200 for something a bit more flexible? It's not terrible, but the cable for the mt200 tweezers is significantly better. Hoping someone might have some recommendations. I'm struggling to find anything that won't end up significantly thicker. Figure I might as well add some strain relief once I find something too.
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The internal strain relief is fine for me, over 3 years and so far so good. Since it's not glued and can be resoldered seems dead easy to knock a few inches off if required.
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Yeah I agree it's fine as is. I think it might become necessary to add additional relief if I do replace the cable with something more flexible. Should mention that I know I prefer my arrangement a bit weird. I keep the station on my right side, but use the iron with my left hand majority of the time.
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Heh, yeah know the problem. What I find best is drawers (or small table) on my dominant side then the workbench next to it (where I sit). Cables dangle better off an open edge than up against a wall or in the middle of the bench. If you have a gap you can swing a microscope there was well.
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During a search related to my plan to possibly improve the chord, I stumbled across a post by tooki that led me to T3324-551 as the male connector for the td200. It was mentioned in the other thread by tooki that the Pace connectors are of the Amphenol C091B series. Not strictly necessary info, but figured it might be helpful to have it mentioned here in case anyone came looking at some point.
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There was an announcement on 20th of July 2021: https://www.facebook.com/paceworldwide (https://www.facebook.com/paceworldwide)
We currently have some exciting new products in the pipeline. Expect more news at the start of Q4!
What is start of Q4? I think it is October 2021. Now it is end of December 2021 and still no news. Do Pace guys have lack of electronic parts or something? Lead time can be 52 weeks when you order some parts nowadays.
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There was an announcement on 20th of July 2021: https://www.facebook.com/paceworldwide (https://www.facebook.com/paceworldwide)
We currently have some exciting new products in the pipeline. Expect more news at the start of Q4!
What is start of Q4? I think it is October 2021. Now it is end of December 2021 and still no news. Do Pace guys have lack of electronic parts or something? Lead time can be 52 weeks when you order some parts nowadays.
FYI, I'm pretty sure the Pace rep that used to post here, Aaron, retired. Maybe someone should reach out to Pace and ask them to have someone else interact with this forum?
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Hydrawerk perhaps they are holding back until you own a Pace ADS 200. It could be the butterfly effect.
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:) :)
No, ADS200 can hardly be replaced soon because it was released in 2018. I expect a successor of MBT350 with an Accudrive soldering iron and maybe with a graphic LCD. https://paceworldwide.com/mbt350-multi-channel-solder-desolder-rework-system-td-100a-sx-100-mt-100
https://paceworldwide.com/news/pace-product-announcements-august-2020
Coming Soon:
MBT 450 Multi-Channel Soldering & Rework System (available early next year)
(note: year 2021!!)
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Considering buying this station what are some recommended tips for microsoldering? I was looking at the hakko 951 but since I would have to buy and additional handle plus tips this pace looks like the better option
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Doing repair and rework if you have no preheating and working on dense pcbs you pick the largest tip that fits between other components. These type of boards were oven reflowed anyway and if you can't easily solder you either have to use preheating or hot air to assist with removal and replacement.
Otherwise as a general rule you don't exceed 2x the pad width. But a chisel can do 3 or 4 connector pins or ic legs at once by reflowing solder with flux. As the tip is wider than the individual pins/legs it's more efficient than using a smaller sized tip.
The small Pace tips are conical 0.20mm, 0.40mm then they transition to chisels at 0.80mm, 1.20mm, 1.59mm, 2.38mm, 3.12mm. So it's not as confusing as at first glance. Bent conical (also 0.40mm) and Flat blade (6.35mm) are useful as well.
Knotlogic made a spreedsheet. A bit easier to see the sizes in order most people get the (1131 prefix) ultra performance version of the tips.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O9gqqtAMWkMNFm5Baqj6rusK9R6ZHN3FZ12iQJACIUE/edit?usp=sharing
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Thanks @shock. That spreadsheet makes it so much easier to choose the tips I need. :-+
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There is also a tip chart on Paces website where you can play pokemon. ;D
https://paceworldwide.com/news/new-printable-td-200-blue-series-tip-chart
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I'm a bit of a heretic, but I use the 1/64" tip (1131-0002-P1 1/64" conical (0.40mm)) to solder down to MSOP-10's (0.5mm) pin-by-pin. Most of my parts are a bit bigger though (0.8mm) and I use magnification. Although few of my peers seem to recommend this, it does show you what is possible.
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Conical tips do have one big advantage, which is that they don't need to be rotated to face the solder joint. It makes it possible to use a more relaxed grip as you would with a pen, as opposed to the tenser grip you need to use with hoof or chisel tips (and the aggravation of fighting torque from twisted handpiece cords). I think this is the reason that soldering tools with awkward grip angles (like the Hakko FX-901 battery powered iron) come with conical tips.
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Three new instruments will be released soon probably.
https://www.facebook.com/paceworldwide (https://www.facebook.com/paceworldwide)
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I just received my Pace ADS200 and I'm ready to start working on my projects. I got an assortment of soldering tips, solder wire, flux, sponges, brass wool etc. Do the Pace tips need pre-tinning before being used? Is there any procedure that I should follow?
Thanks!
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I just received my Pace ADS200 and I'm ready to start working on my projects. I got an assortment of soldering tips, solder wire, flux, sponges, brass wool etc. Do the Pace tips need pre-tinning before being used? Is there any procedure that I should follow?
Thanks!
They should be pre-tinned with lead free when they were factory tested.
Just wipe off that solder using the brass wool, and maybe when you're done soldering add a tiny bit of fresh solder to the tip to help protect it. Otherwise no special procedure.
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They all have a tinned surface at the end of the tip and are ready to go. Since you just brought a few I'll give you some tips on tips (applies to all brands) :
Out of habit I heat all new tips up to about 300C, apply solder to the tip and clean a few times before using.
Counterintuitive to what most people are taught, when not using the tip for a prolonged period or leaving it in the stand it's best to first clean the tip then apply fresh solder across the entire tinned surface. If done for the night just turn off like that.
Doing this will prevent the disused portion of the tinned surface becoming hard to tin and slowly creeping down the tip over time. The sponge does an ok job, but use purified (distilled or deionized) water, otherwise it will accelerate oxides forming. The sponge should be just moist to avoid excessive thermal shock to the tip.
When resuming soldering, you clean that protective blob of solder off and the tip will be like new each time. So periodically I'll do that full tin and clean to keep it optimal. But otherwise just wipe between joints and give it a good coat when done.
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It makes perfect sense that covering the working area of the tip with solder protects it from oxidation, because it excludes air from that surface. It can sometimes be difficult to cover the whole tinned area because the solder wants to bunch up on one side or the other. Also difficult to cover sharp edges like tweezer tips. If you glob on too much solder, it will just fall off.
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I bought the ADS200 from Farnell. I am quite happy with that. I like the military look. But I have a little problem. Some of the soldering tips are not so perfectly shaped so they are a bit difficult to insert into the handle. One tip even jammed the internal o-ring. I had to remove the o-ring. Did someone experience this? Can I run my handle without the o-ring??
I will do some further experimets and maybe add more photos... My o-ring is orange. Once the tip is fully inserted, it works as it should.
Spare o-ring in black color are offered by the manufacturer...
https://paceworldwide.com/td-200-td-100a-td-100-replacement-o-rings-pkg-5
See page 9.
https://paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/2018-03/5050-0532%20TD%20100_MT%20100%20Handpiece%20Manual.pdf
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There is a little insertion pressure as the cartridge tip connector seats which is normal, but it should feel soft and not catching. You should be able to insert the tip with the tip tool for instance. The oring helps align the tip correctly into the socket and hold it there and also probably helps with fumes/contaminants ingress, so I think it's necessary.
It is possible for the oring to become misaligned but once it's seated correctly it gets held in place by the pressure of the back cap washer. To inspect the oring turn off the station remove the tip and look down the barrel with a light or unscrew the cap and check if the oring is centered on the socket correctly, deformed or damaged.
The socket is keyed so to insert it without the oring moving I found by holding it vertical and lowering the handle barrel down on then tighten the cap from the bottom. Pace seems to use a bit of lubricant on it otherwise which sort of holds it in place.
I have a few dozen tips and they are all fine, so I think one of two things is happening. The oring has been misaligned or damaged which is easy to fix. The cartridge tip metal barrel or connector plastic is catching slightly on the lip of the plastic socket (just past the oring) which could be while you are feeling extra resistance.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=979794;image)
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Thank you, I will check it!
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Paces new MBT360 promo video. I like the design and the display looks like it has crystal clear contrast in the video compared to other brands with simple displays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs)
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I expect the display is the same 16x2 LCD they’ve used for many years in the MBT301 and MBT350, which as far as I can tell is just a standard 16x2 character LCD.
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Yeah same type of display, I was commenting on how clear it looks.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1446118;image)
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Well that image is clearly a composite. LCDs are notoriously hard to photograph, hence why the artists do that. Tells you nothing about how good the LCD is in practice.
There are segments in the video that appear to be real footage of the display, and it looks like a typical blue character LCD. Edit: never mind, that looks composited, too.
My comment about it being the same is that it’s likely the exact same model as used in older products.
Good thing is, IF it actually is a standard off the shelf character display, then if one doesn’t like it, it can easily be replaced with a compatible module with superior characteristics, like the OLED character displays available now.
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That image was a screen grab from the video.
This is my MBT350 I took with an old mobile. It's at a different contrast/backlight setting though. Pace has changed them a few times (likely as the displays improved). To the best of my knowledge the MBT350 are generic. Not sure about the MBT360 though, but it looks even better.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-mbt-350-solder-desolder-rework-system/?action=dlattach;attach=501776;image)
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(PACE ADS200) (...)It is possible for the oring to become misaligned but once it's seated correctly it gets held in place by the pressure of the back cap washer. To inspect the oring turn off the station remove the tip and look down the barrel with a light or unscrew the cap and check if the oring is centered on the socket correctly, deformed or damaged.(...)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=979794;image)
I am not quite sure what happened but my orange oring was probably misaligned, although I never saw it. After another o-ring alignment everything seems to be OK and the o-ring now never becomes jammed. I tried all my cartridges. I will monitor it. The o-ring stays to be the original one.
When the o-ring is brand new, it might be more likely to jam. After it wears away a bit, the danger of jamming probably becomes smaller. BTW i did not notice any lubricant there.
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I checked one of my own orings. It might be a self lubricating variety, hard to tell now as it could be rosin flux residue but when my station was new it seemed to have a trace lubricant present.
It was more likely the back cap was opened at some stage and it moved then. Once they are in that socket groove they should stay there captive. I'm fairly confidant you've corrected it now.
Congrats on the station, took you long enough. :)
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When the soldering iron stand is attached to ADS200 with supplied screws, it is like floating in the air. I will have to do a user mod probably.
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I think I identified the microswitch used in the stand of ADS200. It is probably the ZMA03A150S06PC by C&K Switches.
https://www.ckswitches.com/products/switches/product-details/Snap/ZMA/ZMA03A150S06PC/ (https://www.ckswitches.com/products/switches/product-details/Snap/ZMA/ZMA03A150S06PC/)
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Blue and white wire is used.
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Pins are made of sheet metal. It looks cheap but it is probably OK. Can someone say if this is an off-the-shelf connector? Can it be replaced by T 3324 501 AMPHENOL? https://www.tme.eu/cz/en/details/c091-3324-501/din-connectors/amphenol/t-3324-501/ (https://www.tme.eu/cz/en/details/c091-3324-501/din-connectors/amphenol/t-3324-501/)
But I doubt it will ever need to be replaced.
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T 3324 551 with the crimp pins (sold separately).
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Some more photos of ADS200. There is that well known capacitor near the heatsink, but I think that it is OK.
The power transistor is marked P6023, that is probably a 7Amp mosfet named DMP6023LE and made by Diodes incorporated. https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/DMP6023LE.pdf (https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/DMP6023LE.pdf)
There is some flux residue.
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:)
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The power transformer is probably made by Galaxy. https://galaxytransformers.com/ Seems OK.
The rocker switch is made by Arcoelectric England.
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The old FETs were ZXMN4A06 on the Rev. C boards.
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It seems that in old ADS200 there was a 35V capacitor while in new ADS200 there is a 50V capacitor.
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In my ADS200 there is a 105°C Nichicon 1000uF 50V capacitor of the VY or UVY range. It is rather basic but probably OK, because there is probably 24V and much less than 105°C.
https://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-vy.pdf (https://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-vy.pdf)
https://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-uvy.pdf (https://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-uvy.pdf)
What do you think?
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It's a bit of filtering before the 5V regulator, it doesn't need to be anything fancy. Using a higher cap probably gives it a bit more robustness against higher primary (and therefore secondary) AC voltages. On 220-250 VAC mains there is going to be more varied supply voltages it's probably to add additional overrating. It won't hurt making the cap last even longer as well, but I suspect it was well within spec though to start with.
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Paces new MBT360 promo video. I like the design and the display looks like it has crystal clear contrast in the video compared to other brands with simple displays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs)
https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597 (https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597) $2700 earth dollars 😳 this is not a hobbyist purchase :(
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https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MBT360-8007-0605/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MBT360-8007-0605/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/)
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Paces new MBT360 promo video. I like the design and the display looks like it has crystal clear contrast in the video compared to other brands with simple displays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs)
https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597 (https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597) $2700 earth dollars 😳 this is not a hobbyist purchase :(
Duh. It’s a professional soldering system by a company specialized in professional soldering systems. The hobbyist has never been their target demographic.
The predecessor model (MBT350) is similarly priced.
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I did not want my soldering iron stand to be floating in the air when attached to ADS200 so I made a little user mod. I used a random piece of aluminium.
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From what I can tell the stand holes are primarily there so you can interlock multiple stands. I don't know if attaching the stand is officially a feature, but obviously you can do it. :)
There are accessories Pace sell that attach to the sides (storage and the shelf mount bracket for example on the station) these may have something to do with the alignment.
A possible alternative may be to adjust the feet height (spacers?) or placing something under the stand and of course you can always add an extra couple of holes if you want it permanent. I've not looked into it though, at the moment my stands are in front of the stations.
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The other thing you could diy is a custom dross container for inside the stand if you want to keep it minty clean. Pace sells a dross tray (sits behind the brass wool), hard to tell how it actually goes in and I'm not sure if it works with the new setback stands, but the photos give you an idea.
Me I don't use the wool or sponge in the stand. I use the Pace cleaning station which is a standalone segmented sponge and makes it easier to clean tweezers and vacuum tips combined with the fiber cleaning tool.
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There are accessories Pace sell that attach to the sides (storage and the shelf mount bracket for example on the station) these may have something to do with the alignment.
Maybe I'm blind, but I can't find anything other than tips and spare parts. Do you have a link to other Pace accessories?
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These are the ones I can find, I own the first four (which have also part numbers for refills).
Cleaning station 6021-0006-P1
Fiber cleaning tool https://paceworldwide.com/tool-cleaning-fiber
Sponge cleaning tool https://paceworldwide.com/sponge-cleaning-tool
Redi Rak 6021-0008-P1 (Sensatemp tips so not ADS200 specific but MBT and ST).
Mounting bracket kit https://paceworldwide.com/mounting-bracket-kit
Dross tray (check compatibility) https://paceworldwide.com/dross-tray-tool-stands
Cartridge tip case 1310-0034-P1
Flux Trap Cubby Kit https://paceworldwide.com/flux-trap-cubby-kit
I'm not sure if the Flux trap kit fits the ADS200 but it looks like it would make a nice soft smd tweezer tool holder if it does, I plan to pick one up at some stage. I've seen a cartridge tip stand on the side or back of a Pace station before but can't recall if it was aftermarket or not and apparently what it was called, as I can't find it anymore.
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Found it couldn't find the part number as it was incorrectly labelled by the seller. I think it actually attaches to the back of the stand, no idea of compatibility. Anyway you could probably dream up something better if you wanted to store a bunch of tips.
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https://youtu.be/ZTg1NUajNBQ
PACE ADS200 password reset
Might be useful when you forget your password.
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Paces new MBT360 promo video. I like the design and the display looks like it has crystal clear contrast in the video compared to other brands with simple displays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXq1VbFUqs)
https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597 (https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597) $2700 earth dollars 😳 this is not a hobbyist purchase :(
Duh. It’s a professional soldering system by a company specialized in professional soldering systems. The hobbyist has never been their target demographic.
The predecessor model (MBT350) is similarly priced.
MBT360 PSU is $1700 (just psu), ADS200 is $375 w/ iron. A 5x increase for a chunkier transformer, some extra control electronics (are they still using ancient microprocessors?) and a vacuum pump is a little much. Yeah they aren't hobbyist grade but going from commercial temp to industrial/mil temp components isn't *that* much of a jump especially considering the low tech HMI.
You don't even get an Accudrive sodr-x-tractor!
~$1k PSU only would make sense for 3 accudrive channels + pump.
I *want* to support USA manufacturing and development but an fm-206 psu has 3 channels, a pump and hot air for ~500 less. JBC is cheaper and better!
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Yes, some stations from PACE are bloody expensive... But JBC does not produce a one-in-all stations. https://www.jbctools.com/rmse-q-complete-rework-station-with-electric-pump-product-1650.html (https://www.jbctools.com/rmse-q-complete-rework-station-with-electric-pump-product-1650.html)
You must have three separate units.
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I *want* to support USA manufacturing and development but...
The Hakko is a dated design now, even my MBT350 out classes it especially the newer TD100A aluminum handpiece makes the Hakko one feel like junk, the Pace stations have lower cost maintenance and have a better range of lower cost tips as well.
Part of the problem with Hakkos vaccum desoldering handpiece design is they run $50 cartridge tips. Getting the equivalent to Paces 8 tip selection pack (currently going for around $75) you would be spending about $400 for Hakko. So it makes Hakkos cheaper vaccum handpiece become exponentially more expensive to run as time goes on to the point where you could have just brought the whole Pace station anyway.
The other hidden cost of Hakkos soldering handpiece is buying additional sleeves to make removing and inserting tips less painful, another $6 each for each unique tip you run or you get into this annoying loop of swapping tips into their wrong color coded sleeve and then have to swap them back later, it's just not as good as it seems at first glance.
I don't have the particular Hakko vacuum desoldering handpiece for the FM206, but it doesn't strike me as being a particularly robust design either. Tweezers and vacuum desoldering tools in general are quite expensive to setup and cheapest is not always the best option long term...
... and lets not forget that Pace Accudrive channels are 120W.
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https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597 (https://www.testequity.com/product/10063340-8007-0597) $2700 earth dollars 😳 this is not a hobbyist purchase :(
Duh. It’s a professional soldering system by a company specialized in professional soldering systems. The hobbyist has never been their target demographic.
The predecessor model (MBT350) is similarly priced.
MBT360 PSU is $1700 (just psu), ADS200 is $375 w/ iron. A 5x increase for a chunkier transformer, some extra control electronics (are they still using ancient microprocessors?) and a vacuum pump is a little much. Yeah they aren't hobbyist grade but going from commercial temp to industrial/mil temp components isn't *that* much of a jump especially considering the low tech HMI.
While I wish their multichannel stations were cheaper, the fact is, they’ve done extremely well for decades with their pricing model. The main reason for the big price jump is that the ADS200 is priced lower than its predecessors were. (Pace expressly said the ADS200 is aggressively priced.)
If you ask me, all (name brand) commercial soldering stations are “overpriced” for what they are: power supplies with smartish thermostats. But the pricing works for the market, and with the big brands you’re also paying for reputation.
Nobody said anything about mil-spec components.
You don't even get an Accudrive sodr-x-tractor!
Nobody Only Hakko makes a cartridge heater desoldering system. AccuDrive is Pace’s (second-generation) cartridge heater standard. Regardless of what heater and thermal feedback technology they use in their desoldering systems, theirs works really well, which is why they can charge what they do. The fact that they came up with that system decades ago only speaks to how good their original design was.
~$1k PSU only would make sense for 3 accudrive channels + pump.
To you. But not to them, and not to the market.
I *want* to support USA manufacturing and development but an fm-206 psu has 3 channels, a pump and hot air for ~500 less. JBC is cheaper and better!
I’m sorry, are you high? :o
JBC is excellent. But they’re certainly not cheaper up front (not even close), and they’re far more expensive in terms of consumables (by a substantial margin).
Edit: I’ll be damned, Hakko’s is a cartridge. Thanks, Shock!
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I am thinking about a cartridge soldering tip holder.
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Hakkos vaccum desoldering tips for the FM2024 vs the Paces SX100 tips. Hakkos are cartridge but Paces tips I think are undoubtedly more robust and have a larger heater to tip area. Since the break down cost per tip is about 8 times as cheap if you get a problem tip on the Pace system it's not the end of the world.
During the process of vacuuming desoldering I'm often reflowing the joints before removal for optimal extraction. There is virtually no benefit for cartridges on vacuum desoldering handpieces as the handpieces are larger so can incorporate larger heater designs.
Hakkos dross traps are probably a bit quicker to change but Pace has an on demand trap swapping system with fully recyclable consumable traps as well as cleanable glass ones and the pricing is such it's cost and time efficient when implemented.
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The Metcal desoldering stations also can be considered a type of cartridge (induction heating), using the STDC cartridges.
As for the MBT-360, it is priced appropriately as an upgrade to users of the MBT-350 and other professional systems.
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I'm willing to bet a major reason Pace even exists as a going concern are "Buy America" contract requirements. Otherwise they would have gotten blown out by superior European tech or undercut by Chinese manufacturing.
As you say all these stations are insanely overpriced for a heater on a stick :) I can't say I've noticed much upgrading to an accudrive but FWIW, somehow their "intelliheat" tech could handle both tip-heater and non-tip-heater systems. Unclear why an upgrade couldn't be done.
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In the Intelliheat series only the WJS100 and it's associated tip series were 120W rated. So it would be combining 5 or 6 different handpiece wiring configurations to support 3 different thermocouples to make everything run on the same channel.
Bit of a nightmare and it wouldn't have made the ADS200 any cheaper, in retrospect that could have been the worst thing they could have done.
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I'm willing to bet a major reason Pace even exists as a going concern are "Buy America" contract requirements. Otherwise they would have gotten blown out by superior European tech or undercut by Chinese manufacturing.
Uh huh. Which is why they’re also common in European defense & aerospace manufacturing (according to my boss, whose background is defense electronics). Right. ::)
As you say all these stations are insanely overpriced for a heater on a stick :) I can't say I've noticed much upgrading to an accudrive but FWIW, somehow their "intelliheat" tech could handle both tip-heater and non-tip-heater systems.
Because the IntelliHeat connector carries two completely independent control systems. In the post linked below, I explain the control systems Pace uses, and what each connector type has.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/recommendation-for-de-soldering-station-for-through-hole-repair/msg3595853/#msg3595853 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/recommendation-for-de-soldering-station-for-through-hole-repair/msg3595853/#msg3595853)
Unclear why an upgrade couldn't be done.
What do you mean?
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In the Intelliheat series only the WJS100 and it's associated tip series were 120W rated. So it would be combining 5 or 6 different handpiece wiring configurations to support 3 different thermocouples to make everything run on the same channel.
Bit of a nightmare and it wouldn't have made the ADS200 any cheaper, in retrospect that could have been the worst thing they could have done.
I'm willing to bet a major reason Pace even exists as a going concern are "Buy America" contract requirements. Otherwise they would have gotten blown out by superior European tech or undercut by Chinese manufacturing.
Uh huh. Which is why they’re also common in European defense & aerospace manufacturing (according to my boss, whose background is defense electronics). Right. ::)
As you say all these stations are insanely overpriced for a heater on a stick :) I can't say I've noticed much upgrading to an accudrive but FWIW, somehow their "intelliheat" tech could handle both tip-heater and non-tip-heater systems.
Because the IntelliHeat connector carries two completely independent control systems. In the post linked below, I explain the control systems Pace uses, and what each connector type has.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/recommendation-for-de-soldering-station-for-through-hole-repair/msg3595853/#msg3595853 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/recommendation-for-de-soldering-station-for-through-hole-repair/msg3595853/#msg3595853)
Unclear why an upgrade couldn't be done.
What do you mean?
Sure, but being common in NATO defense contracts is essentially the same thing, riding off of the largesse of a captive market. Anyway, they should advertise louder that the MBT350/360/301 series have both vacuum AND hot air pump capability. It's not obvious -- makes the $$ a lot easier to bear. Probably worth picking up.
It's unclear to me why they couldn't have upgraded all of the old tools to accudrive or have some sort of combo port like they were able to do previously. Keeping an old protocol on one channel doesn't give me a lot of confidence in them upgrading the air-based tools to accudrive.
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Depends what their plans are and which tools they want to keep going forward. Their product line up may not necessarily stop at the MBT360 and it's not called the MBT450 which sort of indicates there may be another product to come, I have no evidence of this though other than a hunch.
The common tweezer tips, vacuum tips and soldering tips aren't so expensive to migrate over unless you have the whole range but some of the more exotic removal tips are. So this as well gives customers an upgrade path to keep their Sensatemp handpieces. They are still selling new PRC2000 systems anyway which are all Sensatemp, and there is nothing else to replace that system on the market. If we see an Accudrive version of a Sensatemp tool it becomes a bit more obvious.
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Sure, but being common in NATO defense contracts is essentially the same thing, riding off of the largesse of a captive market. Anyway, they should advertise louder that the MBT350/360/301 series have both vacuum AND hot air pump capability. It's not obvious -- makes the $$ a lot easier to bear. Probably worth picking up.
It’s not a hot air rework station, though. Like all the predecessors, the Thermo-Jet handpiece is a precision hot air tool with a tiny nozzle suitable for hot air soldering, but not desoldering.
It's unclear to me why they couldn't have upgraded all of the old tools to accudrive or have some sort of combo port like they were able to do previously. Keeping an old protocol on one channel doesn't give me a lot of confidence in them upgrading the air-based tools to accudrive.
Both of those are easy to answer:
1. Why not AccuDrive? The whole point of AccuDrive, as far as has been stated publicly, is that it doesn’t need calibration, i.e. that it’s got precision thermal management. With vacuum desoldering tips, it’s physically impossible to put the temperature sensor at the very end of the tip, as you do in precision soldering tips. So you simply can’t have quite as accurate temperature control as with soldering tips. This eliminates any advantage AccuDrive would have over SensaTemp. (Remember that other than the TD100, ALL “IntelliHeat” handpieces are still using SensaTemp control, just in a different connector together with HeatWise.) Other than marketing (to people like you who think newer must always be better) there’s zero advantage in migrating the hot air stuff to AccuDrive control, since hot air is inherently extremely imprecise in regards to temperature control.
2. A newer combo connector would mean having three different control systems within one connector. That’s more pins, more circuitry, and thus more cost, all for little practical advantage.
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Sure, but being common in NATO defense contracts is essentially the same thing, riding off of the largesse of a captive market.
Oh, honey… you do realize Switzerland isn’t a NATO member, right, and thus not party to NATO purchasing contracts? (Nor is civilian aerospace, where Pace is also well represented.) Nonetheless, here we are, with Pace quite popular in those industries here.
It’s almost as though Pace is purchased because of the robustness, reliability, and long parts and service availability, and not because of made-up explanations of contractual “buy USA” nonsense.
And it’s not as though Pace is any more expensive than its competitors. JBC, Weller, Ersa, Hakko, Metcal, etc. are all equally expensive, often more.
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(Remember that other than the TD100, ALL “IntelliHeat” handpieces are still using SensaTemp control, just in a different connector together with HeatWise.)
TD100 + MT100 + TP100.
the Thermo-Jet handpiece is a precision hot air tool with a tiny nozzle suitable for hot air soldering, but not desoldering.
It can desolder small SMDs up to SOICs. The main limitations are the power (51 W) and air flow (8 lpm). It should be obvious that is not sufficient for (e.g.) BGA rework, but that's not the point.
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The Thermojets are mentioned in the Pace catalog. I think they are becoming more useful with smaller pcbs and recently smaller preheaters becoming a thing.
I've noticed the TJ70 has better workflow compared to a hot air station, no heating/cooling cycle, easier to rack in the stand and change hot tips over. But yes it's totally at the other end of the spectrum to a full BGA rework station. A non profile controlled hot air station that is BGA capable would sit somewhere in the middle for me.
They are sort of like tweezers in that regard, you don't need them necessarily for "one offs" but going in multiple times or swapping tips on hot air to remove something smaller is quite painful.
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My ADS200 cartridge stand is finished.
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The cushioned landing is a nice touch.
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Yeah great idea, you can just pull and dump em.
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Accudrive soldering cartridges for the ADS200 station are now hard to buy. Lead time is long. Most of them are sold out on Farnell. https://de.farnell.com/w/search/prl/ergebnisse/2?ost=accudrive&produktpalette=accudrive-blue
I think that NATO and US Army is buying a lot of them nowadays.
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On 15. 5. 2022 I ordered 4 Accudrive cartridges. I was getting an email with a delay announcement every week. I have attached some of them. According to the last email (not attached to this post), three cartridges will be delivered in this week. One last cartridge delivery time is unknown. :( :(
JBC cartridges are easier to buy nowadays, but they are expensive as expected.
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It probably depends on location a lot. I have no problems getting ADS-200 tips from TestEquity (https://www.testequity.com/category/Electronic-Production-Supplies/Solder-And-Desolder/Solder-And-Desolder-Tips/Solder-Tips (https://www.testequity.com/category/Electronic-Production-Supplies/Solder-And-Desolder/Solder-And-Desolder-Tips/Solder-Tips)). I have not checked what is there and what is not, but they have all the tips I use in stock.
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I still think something is wacky with the Pace control loop though. I tried again with a high thermal load and a current clamp and it just doesn't put out more power when the temperature drops, very similar to in Dave's video #1106. :wtf:
Did you try straight dipping just the tip in cold water? Not sure if anyone here has tried that. If you do that and it does not hit 90W+ continuous then there is something screwy.
I can see it not hitting 120W continuous due to dead time requirements of measuring the thermocouple, but any dead time more than 10% is questionable. Looking at the mbless schematic (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054), they have some capacitance at the input of the thermocouple amplifier (C35), as well as a lack of clipping diodes, but I can't see this being HW limitation, that would be a serious oversight.
Metcal will sit at ~90W and Hakko T12 at 50-55W in terms of input power, with the top ~3mm of the tip submerged in water. JBC should as well, as yours and Daves testing showed.
So I know this is from a year ago but it doesn't look like anyone ever tried this water test and posted results. I've been curious since this was brought up so I finally got around to it yesterday with my ADS200 and a Kill-A-Watt and it hovered in the 89-92W range.
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4 cartridges were ordered on 15. 05. 2022 and 3 of them were delivered on 04. 08. 2022. They are OK and working. The 25mm flat blade will be delivered much later probably. :-[ :-[
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I sent an email to Farnell support on 14/08/2022:
Subject: delayed delivery
Query: Dear sir or madam, I would like to ask when this https://cz.farnell.com/en-CZ/pace/1130-0532-p1/soldering-tip-flat-blade-25mm/dp/3023191
will be delivered to me. The order was placed on 15. 05. 2022. The order number is XXXYYY. Is there a problem with the manufacturer? I can wait a few months when necessary.
Thank you.
They answered on 15/08/2022:
Dear Customer,
I am sorry about the delay
I have requested our warehouse to check the lead time and will let you know once I have any information
Best Regards,
Now it is 28/08/2022 and there is still no reply from them. The flat blade tips from PACE are impossible to buy nowadays. :( :( The customer support from Farnell is OK, but PACE does not deliver flat blade or special soldering tips. :(
The 1130-0532-p1 is still back ordered but nothing is happening. Please see attached picture.
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https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0503-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0503-P1/Tips/)
The 1130-0503-P1 tip is out of stock even at Tequipment from USA! In fact most special tips are out of stock! Please see attached picture.
https://www.tequipment.net/product-comparison/?Items=698224,698225,698226,698234,664164 (https://www.tequipment.net/product-comparison/?Items=698224,698225,698226,698234,664164)
What is going on??
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Well, if you want a soldering station with a big range od tips available today, then you should probably buy a JBC soldering station for the C245 cartridge range. https://www.jbctools.com/c245-long-life-cartridge-range-product-19-design-iron.html (https://www.jbctools.com/c245-long-life-cartridge-range-product-19-design-iron.html)
Many tips are on stock at TME.eu. Please see attached picture with some flat blade (=shovel) soldering tips.
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Call or email Pace or the distributor, it's all you can do. If Pace has stock the distributors are probably not putting proper orders in, having shipping delays or have improper minimum stock or ordering levels set, so nothing happens.
Specifically with consumables and stations, they often are initially sold together. So if one or the other are out of stock, it slows down sales. Newer products suffer from this, JBC has had two products fail to launch recently. No company is immune from logistic issues, especially during an economic/health crisis.
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Where can I get a replacement sponge, anyone know?
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Buy any soldering iron sponge and cut the rectangle hole when the sponge is new and not wet yet.
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Replacement sponges P/N 4021-0013-P3 three pack.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/4021-0013-P3/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/4021-0013-P3/Soldering-Accessories/)
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I contacted PACE via Facebook. I am wondering what to do now. Probably I should buy directly from them, but then I might have to pay an import tax. I live in European Union.
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I contacted PACE via Facebook. I am wondering what to do now. Probably I should buy directly from them, but then I might have to pay an import tax. I live in European Union.
Not sure if it would be less expensive for someone in the US to re-ship you the tips, but I'd be willing to help out if you're stuck.
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Are you an distributor or do you work at PACE?
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Are you an distributor or do you work at PACE?
No, I was just wondering if it was less expensive to have someone re-ship from the US.
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I did nothing. Farnell sent me an email. The 1130-0532-P1 Accudrive tip might be delivered on 24. 10. 2022. We will see. The order was placed on 15. 05. 2022.
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New Miniwave demo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJescBRDyMQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJescBRDyMQ)
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4 cartridges were ordered on 15. 05. 2022 and 3 of them were delivered on 04. 08. 2022. They are OK and working. The 25mm flat blade will be delivered much later probably. :-[ :-[
The 25mm flat blade 1130-0532-P1 Accudrive tip will be delivered probably around 12. 10. 2022. I got an email that it has been shipped.
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The 25mm flat blade 1130-0532-P1 Accudrive tip was delivered probably on 10. 10. 2022. I tried it today and it works. I will add some photos maybe later. Lead time was about 5 months, it is not that bad. At my company we buy many electronic components and the lead time is often about one year.
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Now I have probably all the Accudrive tips that I will ever need. But I wish there was an ultra performance (=thicker) version of the 25mm tip.
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There is a cancer warning in red letters. :o Soldering is for brave men only. :) :)
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The 25mm tip is good for desoldering long components with many pins like DIP. Thermal performance is good, but it could be better. I think that thermal performance is better with JBC cartridges like C245949
Blade Cartridge 32. https://www.jbctools.com/c245949-blade-cartridge-32-product-425.html (https://www.jbctools.com/c245949-blade-cartridge-32-product-425.html)
But I am happy with my PACE ADS200, it has some advantages for sure.
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Nice, for dips I think it's better to use low temp alloy if you remove them that way due to less thermal stress, that is if you are keeping the part of course. I alternate pins when soldering them back in, it seems to allow more even heat distribution as you go.
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I use a Sn60Pb40 solder wire at home of course. 8) I only use lead free solder wire at my company when soldering new parts in new PCBs.
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I think @Shock might be referring to Chip Quik. I just used this to remove two SOICs where half the pins were soldered to a giant ground fill with no thermal relief.
https://www.chipquik.com/store/index.php?cPath=200 (https://www.chipquik.com/store/index.php?cPath=200)
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Is that an alloy like Field's metal or Wood's metal?
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Yes, it's a low-melting alloy similar to those.
Some discussion from 2013: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-437-removing-smd-parts-with-chipquick/msg3850053/#msg3850053 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-437-removing-smd-parts-with-chipquick/msg3850053/#msg3850053)
The pre-ROHS leaded alloy is the same as Cerrolow 136 (mp=136°F).
The lead-free alloy is mostly bismuth and tin with some carbon (!) and traces of indium, oxygen, and sulfur.
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Got mine today. It's a really nice upgrade, coming from a Weller WESD51. The only annoyance is that Farnell (France) is out of most tips, so I only have the conical 0.2 mm. It's a bit too fine, but still usable for through-hole headers and the like. Hopefully that tip will last at least until Farnell gets more stock, they seem to be the exclusive distributor around here.
Also, what the hell is this rubber square thing?
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Also, what the hell is this rubber square thing?
It is silicone rubber, it is thermally insulating. You can use it to swap the tips while they are hot. There is also a tweezer-like thing that is for the same purpose. It is up to you whichever you like.
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Also, what the hell is this rubber square thing?
Good question. I searched high and low for an answer and now I forget what it was. It definitely had something to do with hot tips, similar to how silicon mats are all the rage now. What I also never figured out was the arrow looking part of it accomplishes.
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What arrow part?
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It's made for the tapered end to wrap around the handpiece cable so you don't misplace it. I don't use mine for removing tips but they do make good little mats to dump hot things on or a coffee mat etc. They are probably static dissipative as well.
Try using the tip tool (the little tweezer with blue handle), it's easier to remove and place tips into the stand with practice. A cold one you can insert with your hands if you are quick, there's a penalty for being wrong though ;).
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Also, what the hell is this rubber square thing?
It is silicone rubber, it is thermally insulating. You can use it to swap the tips while they are hot. There is also a tweezer-like thing that is for the same purpose. It is up to you whichever you like.
Oh I see ! Swappable tips are a new concept to me.
Now another question, I'm sure this has been discussed before but is it worth getting the Minitweez? I can expense it but it's not insignificant at 500 bucks. Is it just for desoldering (for which it works quite well according to the videos) or can it be used for soldering as well?
Is it better than heating tweezers with an iron (a technique I haven't tried yet)?
I occasionally rework boards I messed up or need to modify because of changing requirements and assemble small prototypes. Hot air gun works for desoldering but blasts the small SMDs away and I have to mask nearby parts with tape/foil.
SOICs/TSSOPs/SOTs are a piece of cake. With only two hands I find getting the 0805's to the board the right side up and holding them in place with tweezers while I touch one side with the iron to be a bit time-consuming, and they always end up lifting a bit on the opposite side. I don't have time to mess with stencils this is for rework & debugging boards. So would the Minitweez help my case?
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SOICs/TSSOPs/SOTs are a piece of cake. With only two hands I find getting the 0805's to the board the right side up and holding them in place with tweezers while I touch one side with the iron to be a bit time-consuming, and they always end up lifting a bit on the opposite side. I don't have time to mess with stencils this is for rework & debugging boards. So would the Minitweez help my case?
I'd like to know how you remove SOICs/TSSOPs/SOTs? My method is terrible.
As far as passives go, again my method may be not ideal, I put some flux down, place the passive then introduce solder using a fine tip. Usually the heating of the flux which causes surface tension keeps the passive in place while that one end gets soldered.
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I'd like to know how you remove SOICs/TSSOPs/SOTs? My method is terrible.
What's your method? I just blast the components away with an el cheapo Duratool hot air station. There really isn't anything to it, except maybe adjusting the right temperature/airflow for your particular nozzle.
Passives and small transistors pretty quickly blast off. If it's an IC I do a circular motion around pads, they either fly away as well or you gently help them with tweezers.
The problem is keeping the other nearby parts from desoldering and plastic connectors from melting. I try to shield them with copper tape. That's why hot tweezers are interesting as you can basically just go and pluck out the component you want.
As far as passives go, again my method may be not ideal, I put some flux down, place the passive then introduce solder using a fine tip. Usually the heating of the flux which causes surface tension keeps the passive in place while that one end gets soldered.
What kind of flux are you using, gel? I only used liquid flux with a pen dispenser so far. I put a bit of flux, pick up the passive, try to place it with tweezers, oops it flipped upside down, try to turn it around, then go get the soldering iron, by that time the part moved again, put iron back, replace part, get iron, try to hold part with a tweezer with one hand, hold solder with a second hand and hold the iron with a... oops ran out of hands. Put some solder on iron tip, touch the part while holding it with a tweezer, part gets soldered to one pad but lifts a bit, then do the other pad. Isn't this how NASA does it?
Is it possible using hot tweezers to put some flux, place the part with regular tweezers, hold solder with one hand, grab the hot tweezers with the other hand and solder the part flat?
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The Minitweez is for removing SMD components with planar sides such as chip resistors, capacitors, inductors, fuses, and the smaller ranges of SOICs. TSOPs are on the large side and I would use a different tool for them. For installing the aforementioned components you would normally use the TD-200 with an appropriate tip (bent conical works well as does the hoof or knife tips) and wipe one pad at a time while holding the component in place with tweezers. Hot air pencils and solder paste also work well for installing small SMD parts (with air flow turned down to an appropriately slow rate).
To avoid knocking the component around before it is soldered, you can use a small drop of tacky flux, or put solder paste on the pads and press it down into the paste. If you don't hold the component with tweezers while soldering, it will tend to "tombstone" and move towards the heat source, which is why the hot air pencil supplying heat evenly is so effective. The automated assembly industry also uses glue to hold SMD components down in difficult situations such as during wave soldering.
The first flux I used was a pen dispenser like the MG Chemicals 835-P and I really didn't like it. It's the kind of liquid marker that has a solid fiber tip and opens a valve when you press down, like the silver paint markers in the drugstore. More often than not it just released a huge pool of flux each time it was used with almost no control. Now I use a bottle of liquid flux with long-handled cotton buds to better control the amount and placement of flux. I also found some better pen dispensers: the Bonkote pens have replaceable brush tips and control flow precisely by how hard you squeeze them.
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Oh I see ! Swappable tips are a new concept to me.
I've never seen a soldering iron where tips are not replaceable. What's cool about cartridge-heater systems like this is how easy it is to hot-swap.
Now another question, I'm sure this has been discussed before but is it worth getting the Minitweez? I can expense it but it's not insignificant at 500 bucks. Is it just for desoldering (for which it works quite well according to the videos) or can it be used for soldering as well?
I guess there might be some edge cases (like solder cups) where they might be handy. But really, they're a rather specialized desoldering tool.
Is it better than heating tweezers with an iron (a technique I haven't tried yet)?
Huh?? What are you referring to?
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I think berke means heating up metal tweezers so they can desolder.
If so no that doesn't work very well, if at all. Soldering irons or desoldering tweezers maintain a regulated temperature and have a tinned portion on the tip.
Under ideal conditions a little solder is applied to the tip and a little flux into the component joint. A molten thermal link (of solder) is created between the tip and component joint which allows the joint to be efficiently heated to the stations or irons set temp. This causes solder to flow or reflow throughout the joint.
Small components like resistors and caps can be removed by flooding a little solder across both joints and then knocking it off the pads with the iron tip or metal tweezers. You can also use two soldering irons, which sort of emulate having tweezers.
Another common work around is to go back and forwards with an iron until there is enough residual heat to remove the component. As was being discussed above, you can use a low temp desoldering alloy like Chip Quik to increase time it takes for the joints to solidify and less likely to cause damage.
A good usage case for desoldering tweezers is if you are regularly desoldering or prototyping. They do cut down the time, if you aren't I would recommend focusing on a hot air station and if doing a lot of through hole component desoldering, a vacuum desoldering station.
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I think berke means heating up metal tweezers so they can desolder.
I can’t imagine anyone would think that’s a viable thing to even bother testing! :-//
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I've never seen a soldering iron where tips are not replaceable. What's cool about cartridge-heater systems like this is how easy it is to hot-swap.
Neither have I, but so far I've only been replacing tips when they get too old, and not as a routine thing.
I think berke means heating up metal tweezers so they can desolder.
Yes that's what I meant.
I can’t imagine anyone would think that’s a viable thing to even bother testing! :-//
Well why not? At face value it sounds plausible to me. This idea was suggested in this very forum.
If so no that doesn't work very well, if at all. Soldering irons or desoldering tweezers maintain a regulated temperature and have a tinned portion on the tip.
That settles it then. Experience has spoken. Thanks for your input!
A good usage case for desoldering tweezers is if you are regularly desoldering or prototyping. They do cut down the time, if you aren't I would recommend focusing on a hot air station and if doing a lot of through hole component desoldering, a vacuum desoldering station.
Thanks, I do have a hot air station. It works fine for desoldering on my own boards as I don't pack them too tight. It's just soldering that is time-consuming.
So in conclusion hot tweezers are no help for soldering, only for desoldering right? I guess my best bet is to get some gel-like flux.
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Hot air and metal tweezers are a better idea. You need hot air to desolder some packages anyway. Regardless I think desoldering tweezers are more efficient, they just aren't as flexible until you have a few tip sizes.
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I've never seen a soldering iron where tips are not replaceable. What's cool about cartridge-heater systems like this is how easy it is to hot-swap.
Neither have I, but so far I've only been replacing tips when they get too old, and not as a routine thing.
Well, at the latest with modern SMD components and heat-sucking multilayer boards, the days of a one-size-fits-all soldering tip are over. So you either swap tips as needed, or you have to swap entire irons.
I think berke means heating up metal tweezers so they can desolder.
Yes that's what I meant.
I can’t imagine anyone would think that’s a viable thing to even bother testing! :-//
Well why not? At face value it sounds plausible to me. This idea was suggested in this very forum.
Most tweezers are stainless steel, which is a terrible conductor of heat (28 times worse than copper, which is what soldering iron tips are made of). And stainless can’t easily be wetted with solder, further compromising heat transfer. So it’d be really hard to get good heat transfer to the joints.
Ok, so you get brass tweezers: it’s wettable and only 3 times worse a thermal conductor than copper. But now that thermal conductivity is sinking all the heat away into the tweezer grip, cooling the tips and burning your fingers.
I just don’t see any way this could work in practice. Maybe you could do it with a blowtorch and blacksmiths gloves, but not with a soldering iron as a heat source.
In my experience the best ways to remove SMD chip passives are:
1. Preheat the board (ideally with infrared preheater, otherwise by generously preheating the board (over a much larger area than the component to be removed) with a broad nozzle, from both sides) at a lower temperature, so that you can then go in with a smaller nozzle and very low airflow to melt the solder on the affected component.
2. Use a soldering iron tip large enough to cover the entire component, flow a bunch of solder onto the tip, and melt both sides at once. The component then gets pulled off onto the iron tip. This works great for parts that aren’t too closely crowded. Don’t do this if you want to reuse the part.
I’d sooner recommend spending money on a good preheater than on desoldering tweezers. With modern multilayer boards, where the internal ground and power planes suck heat away, a preheater is essential for gentle board repairs — plus they just plain make your life easier.
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Pace sell a few different smd removal tips for the TD 200 handpiece as well. I'd still go with the MT 200 tweezers though if you have a big enough usage case and want to be flexible on package sizes as the TD 200 removal tips are fairly specific.
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Hello,
I'm in Europe and after some research online I decided to get an ADS200. Not many sources available in EU unfortunately but so be it.
However, I do have some question so I would really appreciate it if somebody could help me!
- What's included in the box? I believe the main station, the iron and the stand . I think I read somewhere that 3 tips are also included. Is this correct and if so, do you know which ones?
- Do things like the removal tip tool, the removal silicon pad, the sponge, etc.. are included or I should buy them separately?
- I do only THT soldering. I might also do some SMD soldering once in a blue moon but 99.9% is THT. Do I need to purchase some ultra-tips or whatever they're called or these are focused mostly on SMD soldering?
Sorry for the basic questions but I couldn't find much info online and I thought I'd ask here.
Many thanks!
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- What's included in the box? I believe the main station, the iron and the stand . I think I read somewhere that 3 tips are also included. Is this correct and if so, do you know which ones?
They have different configurations. There is a version with 3 tips and a version without. There is also a version with an active stand (reduces temperature when iron is in the stands) and a passive stand.
- Do things like the removal tip tool, the removal silicon pad, the sponge, etc.. are included or I should buy them separately?
All included in all configurations as far as I know.
You can look at www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net), they have all the configurations and descriptions of what is in the box.
- I do only THT soldering. I might also do some SMD soldering once in a blue moon but 99.9% is THT. Do I need to purchase some ultra-tips or whatever they're called or these are focused mostly on SMD soldering?
It really depends. I would not say that some tips are particularly more suited for SMD vs THT, apart from the miniwave one. You may have preferences on straight vs bent and on a diameter. Id look though the catalog and order tip you think may be useful or similar to what you use now.
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- What's included in the box? I believe the main station, the iron and the stand . I think I read somewhere that 3 tips are also included. Is this correct and if so, do you know which ones?
They have different configurations. There is a version with 3 tips and a version without. There is also a version with an active stand (reduces temperature when iron is in the stands) and a passive stand.
- Do things like the removal tip tool, the removal silicon pad, the sponge, etc.. are included or I should buy them separately?
All included in all configurations as far as I know.
You can look at www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net), they have all the configurations and descriptions of what is in the box.
- I do only THT soldering. I might also do some SMD soldering once in a blue moon but 99.9% is THT. Do I need to purchase some ultra-tips or whatever they're called or these are focused mostly on SMD soldering?
It really depends. I would not say that some tips are particularly more suited for SMD vs THT, apart from the miniwave one. You may have preferences on straight vs bent and on a diameter. Id look though the catalog and order tip you think may be useful or similar to what you use now.
Thank you Alex!
I'm used to work with 1.6mm and 2.4mm chisel on my hakko. The chisel 1.59mm seems to be available in the ultra-tips series, which is nice but unfortunately the 2.4mm isn't available at all.
Have you noticed a big difference between the standard and the ultra series?
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I don't have any Utra tips. I use 1130-0035-P1 for 99% of the work. I sometimes switch to 1130-0042-P1 for fine stuff, but very rarely.
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As best I can tell the Ultra tips make mostly a difference on larger tips where the thermal throughput takes advantage of having more mass in the tip. It's to negate the heat sinking effect.
It's not essential though and turning the temp up a little would have a similar effect of counteracting it.
With the station you get the silicon pad, the tip tool, brass wool and sponge. The tips aren't typically included unless mentioned.
I suggest getting the station that includes the instant setback stand, you can always remove the cable later if you don't like. The instant part of heating up when you pick it up and going to the setback temp when you put it in the stand is hassle free.
The stations all have an additional setback feature which doesn't need the stand as well as auto off (sleep mode) that requires interaction with the station to wake it up.
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As best I can tell the Ultra tips make mostly a difference on larger tips where the thermal throughput takes advantage of having more mass in the tip. It's to negate the heat sinking effect.
It's not essential though and turning the temp up a little would have a similar effect of counteracting it.
With the station you get the silicon pad, the tip tool, brass wool and sponge. The tips aren't typically included unless mentioned.
I suggest getting the station that includes the instant setback stand, you can always remove the cable later if you don't like. The instant part of heating up when you pick it up and going to the setback temp when you put it in the stand is hassle free.
The stations all have an additional setback feature which doesn't need the stand as well as auto off (sleep mode) that requires interaction with the station to wake it up.
Thank you Shock.
I am planning to get the IBS version indeed.
Some PCBs I work with have large ground planes so I think I'm gonna purchase the ultra-tips anyway. The price difference is very little so why not...
BTW, do you or anybody else know when the (latest?) firmware 1.4 was introduced? I'd rather avoiding getting the station and realising that I somehow would have to update the firmware. AFAIK, you need to replace the whole chip, which is... meh
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BTW, do you or anybody else know when the (latest?) firmware 1.4 was introduced? I'd rather avoiding getting the station and realising that I somehow would have to update the firmware. AFAIK, you need to replace the whole chip, which is... meh
It's been a few years, but mine came with 1.3 and I updated it to v1.4. It's a 44-pin PLCC in a socket so it's a bit delicate to change. Probably all of the old versions are out of the supply chain by now.
Edit:They may have even changed MCU's by now.
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BTW, do you or anybody else know when the (latest?) firmware 1.4 was introduced? I'd rather avoiding getting the station and realising that I somehow would have to update the firmware. AFAIK, you need to replace the whole chip, which is... meh
It's been a few years, but mine came with 1.3 and I updated it to v1.4. It's a 44-pin PLCC in a socket so it's a bit delicate to change. Probably all of the old versions are out of the supply chain by now.
Edit:They may have even changed MCU's by now.
When did you get yours and how does it work if you want to update? Do you have to give more money to PACE to send you one?
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The 1.4 firmware has been out for several years now and it's fine, should be on all new stations. At the time Pace offered to send forum members 1.4 if they wanted, but that has long since past and there were only a small quantity of stations on the older firmware.
Pace keeps a fairly long product life cycle (based on their previous models) so my guess is they will sell it for another decade at least. My two stations are soon 5 years old.
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I bought my PACE ADS2000 from Farnell on 9th March 2022. There is a 1-5 firmware as shown on the LED display.
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I bought my PACE ADS2000 from Farnell on 9th March 2022. There is a 1-5 firmware as shown on the LED display.
Interesting. you don't know what the changes are, do you?
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Pace ADS200 was introduced to market in 2018 so it is a mature product now.
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Pace ADS200 was introduced to market in 2018 so it is a mature product now.
No doubt. Still, I would like to know what are the firmware updates in 1-5.
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Hi Folks
My PACE TD-200 hand piece losing the black plastics that go's around the blue aluminium. Just noticed that a new hand piece is $300 Aussie Peso's.
Has anyone else had this problem of the black plastic falling of the hand piece?
Thanks
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Mine are holding up quite well, I suggest you reach out to Pace via email.
An idea I had if gets bad you could consider removing it and using appropriately sized non adhesive heatshrink which if shrunk down slowly and trimmed could make quite an effective low profile grip. The handpiece cable is removable, avoid misplacing the inner oring. Something like plastidip could work as well.
There is also a TD200 handpiece for sale in buy/sell/wanted at the moment.
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Mine are holding up quite well, I suggest you reach out to Pace via email.
An idea I had if gets bad you could consider removing it and using appropriately sized non adhesive heatshrink which if shrunk down slowly and trimmed could make quite an effective low profile grip. The handpiece cable is removable, avoid misplacing the inner oring. Something like plastidip could work as well.
There is also a TD200 handpiece for sale in buy/sell/wanted at the moment.
Mine are holding up quite well, I suggest you reach out to Pace via email.
An idea I had if gets bad you could consider removing it and using appropriately sized non adhesive heatshrink which if shrunk down slowly and trimmed could make quite an effective low profile grip. The handpiece cable is removable, avoid misplacing the inner oring. Something like plastidip could work as well.
There is also a TD200 handpiece for sale in buy/sell/wanted at the moment.
Shock,
Maybe given the age of the ADS200 and the opportunity to make a few enhancements (such as for the black plastics around the blue aluminum) you could suggest to your friends at Pace that it's time to introduce the ADS201 with some favorable introductory pricing like they had back when they introduced the ADS200. :)
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I think Pace handpieces are more expensive than most competitors.
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I think Pace handpieces are more expensive than most competitors.
I think you’d be wrong. They’re right in the middle of the pack. The iron, the TD-200, is $142. That’s half (!) of what Weller’s 120W (WXP 120) iron costs, and double what JBC’s (T245) costs.
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I think you’d be wrong. They’re right in the middle of the pack. The iron, the TD-200, is $142. That’s half (!) of what Weller’s 120W (WXP 120) iron costs, and double what JBC’s (T245) costs.
[/quote]
I don't consider Weller to be competitive with major brands anymore. Reviews have shown that Pace doesn't compete well on performance with JBC or Metcal. Both offer less expensive handpieces. IMO Pace has now overpriced their stations and accessories.
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I think you’d be wrong. They’re right in the middle of the pack. The iron, the TD-200, is $142. That’s half (!) of what Weller’s 120W (WXP 120) iron costs, and double what JBC’s (T245) costs.
I don't consider Weller to be competitive with major brands anymore. Reviews have shown that Pace doesn't compete well on performance with JBC or Metcal. Both offer less expensive handpieces. IMO Pace has now overpriced their stations and accessories.
[/quote]
Pace prices went up. I didn't like that.
But performance is on par with JBC in most cases.
Reviews are not that easy to do and not really accurate.. If JBC lies of temperatures and overshoot then you cannot compare at nominal temps..
Metcal RF based stations have better performance per Watt. in the end all of them will solder fine.
Metcal and JBC tips are several time more expensive even with PACE prices going up.
JBC handle is tiny piece of crap plastic that gets hot in use. Pace handle is solid piece of aluminum that is dead cold after 10 hours of soldering...
So yeah it is not that simple...
But PACE pissed me off big time with doubling the prices.. Thermal tweezers never got purchased by me. They are too expensive.
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I had decided to buy the ads200 and I saw a huge price increase a couple of days before placing the order. I will most likely look elsewhere now...
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I had decided to buy the ads200 and I saw a huge price increase a couple of days before placing the order. I will most likely look elsewhere now...
I would agree with that. I have ADS200 from when it first came out and very happy with it. But at the old price.
With the new price, it is not worth it anymore.
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Pace doesn't seem like good value anymore. Seems as if they tried to make a splash out of the gate with intention of jacking up prices later.
I've used Pace, Metcal, Hakko and Weller. If I needed stations for a production situation I'd be using something from Metcal. Their stuff just works well, they have longer warranties than most others and they're pretty good at handling problems, exchanges etc.
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Said this before but, the first price was both a Pace and separate tequipment.net discount, plus our forum discount on top. It was roughly 30% discounted.
Easy to overlook at the same time rising costs in US manufacturing and the pandemic followed, a lot of things became more expensive. Distributors want their chunk of change while carrying as little stock as possible.
I have no idea how Pace was impacted but I'd guess to say it's more about covering costs than hurting new customers.
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Significant chunk of those costs is their own fault. They failed to optimize the design. There is zero need for a linear power supply with a huge and expensive transformer in the soldering iron.
A well executed Ksger T12 performs about the same as ADS200. Ksger has quality control issues, so you may not get exactly the best unit, but overall it shows a better design. Pace could do the same, just make sure that QC is good and make a bank.
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Significant chunk of those costs is their own fault. They failed to optimize the design. There is zero need for a linear power supply with a huge and expensive transformer in the soldering iron.
A well executed Ksger T12 performs about the same as ADS200. Ksger has quality control issues, so you may not get exactly the best unit, but overall it shows a better design. Pace could do the same, just make sure that QC is good and make a bank.
Ksger T12 is not comparable to something made for use in a manufacturing environment.
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What would be your recommendation for a direct Metcal alternative for the ADS200? I have one and I'm happy with it, but a friend of mine is looking.
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That's why I'm saying that they could have made a more resilient version of it. It is not like it is impossible to design 150W switching power supply capable of continuous operation.
It is fine if they are going primarily for manufacturing, of course. But it is over-built and expensive because of lack of care not for some perceived "quality".
Their firmware update method is to mail a programmed MCU for you to replace.
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Their firmware update method is to mail a programmed MCU for you to replace.
I made some recommendations for them for an alternative MCU with a minimal learning curve that would allow them to do flash updates. Even offered to help.
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That's why I'm saying that they could have made a more resilient version of it. It is not like it is impossible to design 150W switching power supply capable of continuous operation.
It is fine if they are going primarily for manufacturing, of course. But it is over-built and expensive because of lack of care not for some perceived "quality".
Their firmware update method is to mail a programmed MCU for you to replace.
A robust, resilient, medical grade PSU that you would need also cost lots of money. I prefer classical transformer, it is much more robust long term and also leakage is very low... and that is not even a problem.
TD-200 AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridge Iron with Instant SetBack Tool Stand is 232 USD (that is iron and stand , no power control unit)
ADS200 AccuDrive Soldering Station with TD-200 & 3 Tip Bundle is 414 USD
Price of control unit: 182 USD
MT-200 MiniTweez Kit with Instant SetBack Cubby (AccuDrive) (that is iron and stand , no power control unit) 395 USD
ADS200 with MT-200 MiniTweez, Chip Tip & Instant SetBack Tool Stand 850 USD
Price of control unit: 455 USD
WTF is wrong with them ?? It is literally LESS EXPENSIVE (and for 41 USD !!!!) to buy complete ADS200 AccuDrive Soldering Station with TD-200 & 3 Tip Bundle AND MT-200 MiniTweez Kit with Instant SetBack Cubby than to buy tweezers with control unit!!!
Their prices are simply stupid and illogical. It is like pricing is random...
Not to mention that prices for tweezer handle is too much..
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I had decided to buy the ads200 and I saw a huge price increase a couple of days before placing the order. I will most likely look elsewhere now...
Pace doesn't seem like good value anymore. Seems as if they tried to make a splash out of the gate with intention of jacking up prices later.
The original price was clearly communicated as an introductory price of about half off. So it wasn’t a “huge price increase” or “jacking up prices”, but it reverting to its actual normal price.
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Significant chunk of those costs is their own fault. They failed to optimize the design.
I very much doubt they were losing money on them when they were still selling them for the $200 introductory price. So I very much doubt that manufacturing costs have anything to do with the prices.
There is zero need for a linear power supply with a huge and expensive transformer in the soldering iron.
There clearly must be some reason why all the big manufacturers use linear power supplies in most or all of their soldering stations.
I actually asked that question of the Pace rep that used to post here before he retired, and he responded that he didn’t remember what the reason was, but that the engineers had explained it to him at one point and that it had made sense.
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What would be your recommendation for a direct Metcal alternative for the ADS200? I have one and I'm happy with it, but a friend of mine is looking.
In terms of price the closest Metcal equivalent would be the MFR-1110, but it has a maximum power of 60W (single channel), compared to the ADS200's 120W (although some tests upthread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg4332343/?topicseen#msg4332343) show that the Pace may be limited to 80W continuous). Many sources state that RF heat is more effective than a watts-to-watts comparison would imply (this has to do with the nature of the control loop; in a RF iron the power is being sent down the cable continually and reflected back to the power supply when it is not needed. As soon as the temperature of the tip drops, the power is immediately absorbed by the tip without the power unit needing to detect and correct it, as in a resistive heating system).
For a higher power Metcal you need the MX5000 which outputs 80W into a single channel. The MX series is incompatible with the tools and tips from the MFR series.
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I actually asked that question of the Pace rep that used to post here before he retired, and he responded that he didn’t remember what the reason was, but that the engineers had explained it to him at one point and that it had made sense.
That's a strong argument :)
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There clearly must be some reason why all the big manufacturers use linear power supplies in most or all of their soldering stations.
They probably want to use a Zero crossing control. You need AC for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_crossing_control
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Hi Folks
My PACE TD-200 hand piece losing the black plastics that go's around the blue aluminium.(...)
Has anyone else had this problem of the black plastic falling of the hand piece?
Thanks
Yes, I saw it on my workmate's handpiece. It was probably bought in 2020 or so. Not a problem probably. But you might try contacting PACE.
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I actually asked that question of the Pace rep that used to post here before he retired, and he responded that he didn’t remember what the reason was, but that the engineers had explained it to him at one point and that it had made sense.
That's a strong argument :)
lol
There are a lot of justifications that can "make sense". eg you can significantly under-size a linear transformer, because you'd never be soldering at 100% duty cycle, whereas a AC/DC supply cannot be as easily under-sized (other than the heatsink). Reliability is better as its so simple (but warranty is only 1 year). "Electromigration" tip issue has never been shown, so I don't think thats an issue, but someone might believe it as a proven fact. Zero crossing for lower noise as mentioned above.
Most likely is its done that way because they've always done it that way. Too risky to try something new that might not pass compliance testing.
That and the cost of flying in Treez from the UK to custom design a flyback is astronomical. He's the only designer you can trust not to run away with your IP to China.
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I like the weight of a linear supply because it keeps it from sliding around on bench. I have some older Metcal stations with linear transformers in them, which I also prefer because I can still repair them if need be. Almost every part is still available. They do seem to run forever. The newer Metcal stations have switching supplies though.
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I actually asked that question of the Pace rep that used to post here before he retired, and he responded that he didn’t remember what the reason was, but that the engineers had explained it to him at one point and that it had made sense.
That's a strong argument :)
lol
There are a lot of justifications that can "make sense". eg you can significantly under-size a linear transformer, because you'd never be soldering at 100% duty cycle, whereas a AC/DC supply cannot be as easily under-sized (other than the heatsink). Reliability is better as its so simple (but warranty is only 1 year). "Electromigration" tip issue has never been shown, so I don't think thats an issue, but someone might believe it as a proven fact. Zero crossing for lower noise as mentioned above.
Most likely is its done that way because they've always done it that way. Too risky to try something new that might not pass compliance testing.
That and the cost of flying in Treez from the UK to custom design a flyback is astronomical. He's the only designer you can trust not to run away with your IP to China.
lmao what IP? it's a heater on a stick. anyone interested in china can always dump the MCU flash anyway but there's already better open source PID controllers.
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I'll opt for the linear supply just as it is, really annoying when smps die in tools. External smps suck as well, you have to crack the case to repair them and they don't play well on an already cluttered bunch.
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That and the cost of flying in Treez from the UK to custom design a flyback is astronomical. He's the only designer you can trust not to run away with your IP to China.
lmao what IP? it's a heater on a stick. anyone interested in china can always dump the MCU flash anyway but there's already better open source PID controllers.
That’s an inside joke: You must not be familiar with the forum member treez/faringdon: he claims to be a power supply designer in the UK. He’s constantly posting threads asking novice questions, often in the context of how China is stealing UK jobs and such…
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https://www.circuitnet.com/news/uploads/4/ADS200-_100-Off-Promo_Rev3_26-June-23.pdf (https://www.circuitnet.com/news/uploads/4/ADS200-_100-Off-Promo_Rev3_26-June-23.pdf)
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
PACE Announces Summer Sale of ADS200 ® Professional Soldering Stations
Vass, NC – July 4, 2023 –For a limited time, PACE Worldwide is offering a $100 off list sale price on all of their ADS200 soldering stations. The discount will be available through PACE’s network of distributors or directly through their website.
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That PDF announcement is from Billy Siegel (Isn't he's the guy in all the soldering video's?)
Maybe we should ask him to reconsider having a Rep browse this thread now and then for outstanding product advice since we lost Aaron Caplan (retired) some time back?
wsiegel@paceworldwide.com
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BTW, Aaron came out of retirement and is back at Pace. Probably best to contact support though (instead) if necessary. Aaron's role was in training/marketing as far as I'm aware so I expect was more involved with the launch.
Tequipment was reducing prices around the end of year time in the past. Aside from Pace doing a promotion distributors/dealers set their own prices.
I'm fairly sure Pace is aware of product discussion here, to my knowledge Eevblog is the most prominent forums for Electronics related gear discussion if not electronics in general.
Hopefully tequipment gets a good price going, if possible $100 off promo and the Eevblog tequipment discount on top, with free shipping would be the best deal seen for a while.
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Hopefully tequipment gets a good price going, if possible $100 off promo and the Eevblog tequipment discount on top, with free shipping would be the best deal seen for a while.
So far I have not been able to apply both the eevblog and free shipping, let alone the (upcoming?) $100 off.
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I don't particularly like dealing with TEquipment. Their sales people are pushy and also tried to add shipping charges to free shipping.
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They have been fine for me so far. I don't rely heavily on customer service. Back in the day (dark ages) everything was ordered over the phone out of catalogs glad I don't have to do that anymore.
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TEquipment has been consistently dependable in my experience and the upcoming sale looks interesting.
Question: Has anyone here ever gone from a Hakko FX888D to a Pace ADS200 and concluded that their life improved, or at least their soldering results or their soldering skills improved noticeably?
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It depends on what you are going to solder. ADS200 has many advantages over the Hakko FX888D. There is a short tip to fingers distance for example.
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Question: Has anyone here ever gone from a Hakko FX888D to a Pace ADS200 and concluded that their life improved, or at least their soldering results or their soldering skills improved noticeably?
I've been soldering for several decades, have a bunch of gear (including several Hakko) and the Pace ADS200 makes everything faster and easier for me. There are strong indicators that moving to better tools allows you to advance your skill, but you still have to make a concerted effort to improve no matter what tool you use.
The biggest distraction is being lured in by soldering station gimmicks like fancy displays, usb connectivity and software menus. They unfortunately will not help you produce better soldering results. You are soon left with the important stuff like how fast it heats up and how fast you can change the temperature or tip. Then it's how long the tips last and how much they cost to replace.
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Somebody might prefer a JBC soldering station like CD-2BQF with a T245 handle. It looks more modern. Changing cartridges is even faster. I use an old JBC AM station with a T245 handle at work.
But basic JBC cartridges are twice the price of PACE ADS200 cartridges. (It might depend on the country where you live. There might even be a ban on USA products in your country or so.)
17USD https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245067/Tips/?search=true (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245067/Tips/?search=true)
41USD https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0035-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0035-P1/Tips/)
https://www.jbctools.com/cdb-soldering-product-1605.html (https://www.jbctools.com/cdb-soldering-product-1605.html)
I am not a fan of graphic LCDs but they might work well for 10 or more years.
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On the other hand, PACE ADS200 special soldering tips are more expensive than JBC C245 series.
A 10mm blade:
53USD https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245914/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/C245914/Tips/)
83USD https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0501-P1/Tips/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1130-0501-P1/Tips/)
On the PACE website the price is even higher, 90USD!!
https://paceworldwide.com/blade-tip-108mm (https://paceworldwide.com/blade-tip-108mm)
And I think that thermal performance is better at JBC. Lifespan is OK, I use it at work for lead and lead-free soldering.
If you want to buy many special tips, you might consider JBC.
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The prices are all over the place for specialty tips on all brands, you have to look at the exactly what you're buying and compare totals.
I think you will find with the Pace ADS200 on special with half a dozen tips works out approximately half the cost of doing it on the JBC, again depends on region and where you go. If you extend your standard tip range or replace some over time the total cost of ownership gets better and better. The cost difference of a few specialty/rework tips (unless you are going absolutely crazy) becomes less significant to the overall price.
If you are going to invest that much into JBC it makes more sense to save up another few hundred and get the Metcal MX5200 dual channel station. Over time it's cost of ownership also looks more favorable than JBC's, especially if considering another tool.
The JBC CD series are compact designs and integration and expansion is one of it's biggest downsides. They all look a bit oddball when you plug in an extra tool and stand (hunting for the socket at the back each time).
With regards to the JBC tip swapping system, it seems to me flawed. Ejecting them face down riskier for finer tips and no good dropping out tinned tips like that. If you have multiple tips you lose track of them face down.
Racking them immediately avoids all that but if you use the JBC system then rack later or search for which tip is which, you are double handling. I personally think the whole reason they do this is to turn the handpiece off to avoid damage to the station.
Lastly on the subject of small increments in performance, none of this really matters. At lot of focus in youtube videos is given to heating up massive targets with small tips. It's just not best practice, you use a larger tip and appropriate temp or preheating.
However, compared to the Hakko FX888D the cartridge systems from Metcal, Pace and JBC all have double the effective power and their heat up and recovery times are multiple times faster. That is a substantial jump in performance and ease of use due to the speed and cartridge swapping.
So that is more pertinent to Electro Fan's question, hope that helps.
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*INSTANT* set back? I bought me ADS200 a few years back, including the set back stand. In my case it does not do the set back until a time out period has elapsed and I prefer it that way. Please tell me the INSTANT set back stand can do the same thing. I'm trying to take advantage of the sale for a coworker.
EDIT: Nevermind. I found my original order ($229!) and it was always called the Instant set back stand. :-[
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Instant setback is configurable between 0-240 seconds (instant to 4 minutes delay).
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Shock
Yes, you can set the time.
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In summary vs. the Hakko FX888D, the Pace ADS200 is going to:
1. Have a somewhat better User Interface (the 888D is not highly intuitive but once you learn it, it does what's needed).
2. Heat up much faster.
3. Keep the heat more stable at the target temp.
4. Have a better handle with an easier to manage shorter distance to the tip.
5. Set back in a way that preserves/lengthens tip life.
6. Change out tips (with their cartridge) easier and faster.
7. Cost ~3x the 888D by the time several tips are included (closer to 4x if we don't hop on the July sale).
Missing anything? Thx
PS, can someone PM me the latest EEVblog TEquipment discount code if that's still a thing? Thanks, EF
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A few more things...
All metal design (as opposed to plastic), larger tip range, USA made (not outsourced), can fully hot swap the cartridges without cooling, config is hidden at boot (no accidents), calibration free design, cool running handpiece, intuitive buttons, heavy stand, cheap consumables, comes with silicon pad and tip tool, station will run their nice (but a bit pricey) tweezers. Handpiece compatibility with other Accudrive stations.
Free integrated heater inside every cartridge brought (hehe). But yeah you have to consider there is an extra cost that comes with the integration of the heater and tip.
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A few more things...
All metal design (as opposed to plastic), larger tip range, USA made (not outsourced), can fully hot swap the cartridges without cooling, config is hidden at boot (no accidents), calibration free design, cool running handpiece, intuitive buttons, heavy stand, cheap consumables, comes with silicon pad and tip tool, station will run their nice (but a bit pricey) tweezers. Handpiece compatibility with other Accudrive stations.
Free integrated heater inside every cartridge brought (hehe). But yeah you have to consider there is an extra cost that comes with the integration of the heater and tip.
Shock, I love the enthusiasm but to be somewhat objective :) .....
All metal design (as opposed to plastic) - looks good, sounds good, but the FX888D is plenty durable (although it's still blue and yellow); btw/fwiw, the FX888D is slightly taller (16mm, 120mm vs 104mm) but the FX888D has a smaller footprint than the ADS200 (100mm vs 130mm width and 120mm vs 152mm depth) = about 40% smaller footprint for the FX888D
larger tip range - this might be debatable, look at the collection of tips for the FX888D, in some shapes/sizes Hakko might offer more choices
USA made (not outsourced) - that is a bonus for people in the U.S.
can fully hot swap the cartridges without cooling - it can hot swap with a tool; with my 1960s pliers I can hot swap a tip on the FX888D, probably not as easily but once you get the process down you don't have to wait to swap tips
config is hidden at boot (no accidents) - not sure how many people if any have ever had a boot accident with FX888D
calibration free design - good if you don't need or want to calibrate but maybe nice if you needed to or wanted to
cool running handpiece - I haven't found this to be an issue with the FX888D
intuitive buttons - ok, no one is going to give this one to Hakko but it's also not that big of a deal once you know how it works
heavy stand - the FX888D stand is plenty heavy (but it's blue and yellow)
cheap consumables - not sure what consumables really matter but FX888D tips are about 1/3 the price of ADS200 tips
comes with silicon pad and tip tool - how much are those worth? get a pad and a pliers
station will run their nice (but a bit pricey) tweezers - might be interesting if you need a tweezers
Handpiece compatibility with other Accudrive stations - always good when handpieces are compatible with stations
Net, net: These are somewhere between a push and not really advantages and maybe some disadvantages, and a few modest value adds. Meanwhile the price is 3-4x.
But, despite all that, for someone who is a pro and solders a lot where time is real money, or maybe for an amateur who works on valuable equipment, or for an enthusiast who just really enjoys soldering, or for someone who is maybe a TEA member - then the ADS200 makes sense.
Having said that, before I admit to a possible TEA affiliation, how do we deal with these?
https://youtu.be/42sa3wkQUIE
- 5 years later and the only explanation is faulty tips?
- given the comments, seems like it wasn't just Mike, others apparently had similar issues
https://youtu.be/TGaTJmuy21U
- this was only a year ago, and from the comments it also appears that it wasn't just the reviewer who was underwhelmed
Shock, you are a great Ambassador for Pace, and I'd kind of like to give the ADS200 a try but between the price and the issues, to be square, if it wasn't for you and your never ending Pace PR I might have moved on to something else by now. So give us your best closing argument. :) :-+
Thanks, EF
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5 years ago there were faulty tips. What other explanation is required?
I don't put too much stock in Internet reviews of any product (especially video reviews). The problem is that video creators need to generate clicks for adshare revenue, and so the reviews are really just a form of clickbait. Not always, but it's a good assumption until you get more data. On a random Google search for reviews the odds are even worse, because most top search results are SEO trash sites written in Jakarta.
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5 years ago there were faulty tips. What other explanation is required?
I don't put too much stock in Internet reviews of any product (especially video reviews). The problem is that video creators need to generate clicks for adshare revenue, and so the reviews are really just a form of clickbait. Not always, but it's a good assumption until you get more data. On a random Google search for reviews the odds are even worse, because most top search results are SEO trash sites written in Jakarta.
Thanks, helius. Fair comments and plausible explanation but it would be interesting to know some details of what was faulty. Tip material, cartridge design or manufacturing, sensor feedback system, firmware? Lots of reviews with comments and various articles out there but no explanation other than Pace rallied and made it better for high profile users.
But but then we get to the second video. The reviewer has done his share of reviews on various products and seems like a straight shooter; both the reviewer and some of his commenters didn’t seem like they were getting top notch performance - and that was only about a year ago.
The ADS200 might be great when you get a good one with good tips but to abandon a properly working FX888D and a good tip collection for a new station and tips that will cost 3-4x the original investment there needs to be some Ronald Reagan trust by verify. Just sayin’ :)
It would be great to hear from some FX888D users who made the switch to a ADS200 and are very happy they did.
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It would be great to hear from some FX888D users who made the switch to a ADS200 and are very happy they did.
I'm one of those users. I'm very happy with the switch. All those items listed above are not a big deal, and both UIs suck.
The biggest thing for me that justified the switch alone is cartridge tips. I'm never going back to using pliers to change the tips.
I've used it since 2018 and the tip I use the most is PACE1130-0035-P1 (Angled MiniWave, 2.11mm). In that time only one tip died. I ordered 5 more of them and I figure they would last me a long time.
I have a number of high thermal capacity tips, which don't get a lot of use, but I've seen no issues with them either.
Overall, I'm not too happy with the variety of the tips. There are a lot of them, but for regular work only 2-3 that are really useful. I really wish there was a better variety on the miniwave side.
I switched when the price was more reasonable - $220. I'm not sure that it is still a good deal at the current price, but I have not evaluated other options either.
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A miniwave / minispoon tip is a must for me. There is probably no such tip at Hakko T18 tip range, that is compatible with FX-888D.
https://hakkousa.com/products/soldering-iron-tips/t18-series.html?p=3
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The ads200 was a significant step up for me from the 888d. The original unit I received acouple years back was faulty, but Pace handled it an an acceptable manner. Never had any tip issues. I ended up buying the tweezers too and while expensive, i think I've gotten my money's worth at this point. I only have the 1 station power source and am kind of tired of switching back and forth between the iron and tweezers. Probably going to pick up another ads200 with this sale, but wish they had just the power source available. I know they usually sell it, but been getting "Access Denied" since the sale started :(
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It would be great to hear from some FX888D users who made the switch to a ADS200 and are very happy they did.
I'm one of those users. I'm very happy with the switch. All those items listed above are not a big deal, and both UIs suck.
The biggest thing for me that justified the switch alone is cartridge tips. I'm never going back to using pliers to change the tips.
I've used it since 2018 and the tip I use the most is PACE1130-0035-P1 (Angled MiniWave, 2.11mm). In that time only one tip died. I ordered 5 more of them and I figure they would last me a long time.
I have a number of high thermal capacity tips, which don't get a lot of use, but I've seen no issues with them either.
Overall, I'm not too happy with the variety of the tips. There are a lot of them, but for regular work only 2-3 that are really useful. I really wish there was a better variety on the miniwave side.
I switched when the price was more reasonable - $220. I'm not sure that it is still a good deal at the current price, but I have not evaluated other options either.
Now we’re talkin’!
An objective long standing straight talking highly credible EEVer.
And the rest of you guys are pretty good too. :)
Seriously, thanks to everyone - this is such a great site!!
Special thanks to Shock and ataradov and Happy 4th of July to everyone!
PS, ataradov your feedback has just about nudged me to order the Pace, and thanks for the candid heads-up on the vaunted dramatically superior ADS200 UI. :) Fortunately I think my UI skill be up to speed after having trained on the FX888D. :) I’m not too worried as I’m guessing most of the solder joints will be made with the tips instead of the buttons. :)
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Electro Fan
You might consider a JBC station with a T245 handle. You must decide what you need and what you like.
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Hydrawerk,
That is a good looking soldering station. Very nice looking ergonomics.
https://www.testequity.com/product/10001025-CD-1BQF?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpaWU7aj2_wIVkSrUAR0CGw6sEAQYASABEgK-VfD_BwE (https://www.testequity.com/product/10001025-CD-1BQF?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpaWU7aj2_wIVkSrUAR0CGw6sEAQYASABEgK-VfD_BwE)
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What I think happened with SDG. Pace had an extra distribution center in the UK and closed it around the time covid hit (probably not economically viable is my guess), shipping and customs delays were terrible at this time. SDG ordered some of the last stock at Farnell and I suspect somehow he just lucked out and got a dud tip, possibly overlooked from the recall or a mishandled return, who knows.
I have a really solid selection of cartridges and they are all working perfectly. It's not like your warranty ceases to exist and you can always contact them directly.
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Hydrawerk,
That is a good looking soldering station. Very nice looking ergonomics.
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Well, If you do not like the simple-military look of PACE, you might be happy with a JBC. Thermal performance is very good. The cartridges are very comfortable to change and to turn around in the handpiece.
But there are some drawbacks of CD-1BQF.
The power switch is on the back. The case of JBC CD-1BQF is probably NOT made of aluminium. Temperature cannot be adjusted when the handpiece is in the stand. Handpiece and stand must be kept clean to make good contact or the sleep function will not work. (Marked red on the attached picture.)
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Shock, I'm guessing I know what you will say, but just in case.....
What's your opinion on the ADS200 vs an AiXun T3A with a genuine JBC 245-A handle and genuine JBC tips?
I'm standing back..... :)
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Electro Fan, I'd not buy the AiXun T3A as I just don't buy a lot of Chinese stuff, I can count on both hands the amount of Chinese products I've brought in 10 years. Neither am I interested in buying products with cheap Chinese made smps in them. I've watched many smps fail over the years so it's not worth the risk having an unexpected failure mode and something catching fire. I replace most cheap smps with properly specced branded models from my local supplier.
From a logical perspective if put in that situation I'd look at the price difference compared to what comes in the JBC box. Then factor in the risk and cringe against those perceived savings. I'm fairly confidant the smps won't last as long as a transformer. But at the end if you have wasted money you still have the JBC handpiece and stand (if original).
I setup gear either on the shelf or (like currently) the table next to me. Having a detached stand means I can move it closer to the work without dragging the station and power cable. The weight of the station is helpful to prevent it sliding around the table. Rear power switches are no longer a problem, I put in a managed power system a while back to avoid reaching over gear.
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Just checked the prices looks like $319 for the ADS200 instant setback version at tequipment.net with free shipping, if the Eevblog 6% code can be stacked perhaps $299.
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Just checked the prices looks like $319 for the ADS200 instant setback version at tequipment.net with free shipping, if the Eevblog 6% code can be stacked perhaps $299.
I spent a half-hour with their chat person (not a bot but possibly less useful) trying to get that $100 sale applied. It looks like they fixed it now, but it isn't quite $100 off because TEquipment would discount these a little in the first place--the kit with 3 tips and ISB stand was $462 list and they sold it for $438. Now it is $362, which is $76 less.
Still, no complaints because AFAIK nobody else discounts them and perhaps their cost isn't going down the full $100. Plus they even discount the tips about 5%. I ordered the no-tips kit for $319, the website did allow me to stack the FREESHIP and (private eevblog code) so it was, in fact, $299. Two Blue Ultra tips and CA tax came to $360. Not as cheap as they used to be, but at least it will keep me out of the KSGER repair forums for now!
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Yeah looked like tequipment were slow to up date their prices. The free shipping and discount code is what makes it great to buy from them as it's a little sweetener on top of their prices, which I've found are generally competitive.
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Pace ADS-200 or Metcal GT-90?
My primary use case is soldering bullets on 8-10 gauge wire, maybe 6 in the future, for r/c batteries and sometimes replacing ESC leads (same wire) where I don’t want to heat the board any more than necessary. While they are simple jobs they are very important connections and I’m sure both stations are a nice improvement over weller 1010. Both stations have decent discounts atm.
Not sure where the metcal is made, obviously the Pace is USA.
Is there still any issue with the ADS-200 and decent size chisel tips in the ultra version? I would assume that was a teething issue that’s long resolved?
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There are two versions the GT90 and GT120, both made in China as far as I'm aware. The release videos looked like it was a little slow heating. It's not as quick as the MX5200 series, I doubt they can make a cheap temp adjustable station with the same performance and wouldn't it make all their other products obsolete?
They take both cartridges and conventional tips but the implementation of this was a bit weird, swapping small parts over on the plastic handpiece. An external smps is negative for me due to reliability and clutter. Probably best to look at the cost of the tips and decide if the lower performance, conventional tips, cheaper model ideas are worth it. Or do you go the expensive GT120 route with cartridge tips and what benefit will it bring you, at what additional cost.
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No problems with the Pace ADS200 I'm aware of, and yes there are large chisels.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/soldering-equipment-help/?action=dlattach;attach=946164;image)
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The case of JBC CD-1BQF is probably NOT made of aluminium.
I had that station at my old workplace. It's plastic.
Temperature cannot be adjusted when the handpiece is in the stand.
Indeed. Completely inexplicable design decision. :(
Handpiece and stand must be kept clean to make good contact or the sleep function will not work. (Marked red on the attached picture.)
This never proved to be a problem, and that job was at a vocational training center, where apprentices didn't always take the best care of things. About 20 benches, each with a JBC, and sleep was never a problem in any way, no matter how dirty the handpiece and stand. I cannot imagine how dirty you'd have to get it for the sleep detect to start failing.
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Temperature cannot be adjusted when the handpiece is in the stand.
Indeed. Completely inexplicable design decision. :(
Not only that, it also nags you with a message that stays on the display for several seconds and blocks the keypad. Drives me nuts....
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Maybe some helpful information if you're looking at picking up one of these while the discount is active...
If you order from Pace worldwide, the lowest cost version without ISB stand now comes with a single tip. Not so from tequipment.
On Amazon, there is a version without ISB stand that includes 3 tips, with a different set of tips than every other combo, forgoing the 1/32 point for a 5.15mm ultra chisel tip, which is is sold by and ships from tequipment, but you are stuck with the $17 dollar shipping and tequipment will not sell that station and tip group through their website directly, even if you take 40 minutes talking with their chat and request a quote. Even though I would prefer that three tip set I have to lose the free shipping and 6% eevblog discount so over all it's probably not worth it.
I was hoping they would sell me the ISB version with the same three tips they include on the amazon package, but no go and took too much time for them to get me an answer. In fact, after 30 minutes I had to go and they emailed me later and said they couldn't do it. I was quite surprised and figured a custom quote for basically something they sell on Amazon would be easy.
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I was hoping they would sell me the ISB version with the same three tips they include on the amazon package, but no go and took too much time for them to get me an answer. In fact, after 30 minutes I had to go and they emailed me later and said they couldn't do it. I was quite surprised and figured a custom quote for basically something they sell on Amazon would be easy.
I wouldn't count on the Amazon description to be accurate--the Pace p/n they list for the kit that purportedly has that 5.15mm chisel tip (8007-0584) is the exact same p/n that is listed on Pace and TEquipment sites with the standard tip set.
https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-td-200-3-tip-bundle-120v-only
The base kit without ISB (8007-0578) is the same on both Pace and TEquipment sites but as you say, Pace says that a 1/16 chisel tip is included while TEquipment says no tip included. I've no idea what you'll get if you order this, perhaps Pace added the tip to the package without changing the p/n or perhaps you'll actually get a tip with the TEquipment version. In any case, 6% plus free shipping more than covers the price of a tip.
My strategy is to get the ISB/no-tips kit and then buy the tips I actually want. The differential cost of the 3-tip kits would only make sense if I actually wanted all 3 of the tips they offer.
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My strategy is to get the ISB/no-tips kit and then buy the tips I actually want. The differential cost of the 3-tip kits would only make sense if I actually wanted all 3 of the tips they offer.
Yeah that’s what I’m gonna do. The only way the tip combo was gonna make sense for me was the tip group listed on Amazon which I would use all 3 size chisels, but need to get through tequipment for the shipping and discount code, or it’s a wash at best. The Amazon tip combo wasn’t available with ISB stand either.
If my use case is almost always to turn the station on and use it for 5-30 minutes and then turn it off, is ISB beneficial to tip life? I would probably only use it maybe 6 times a year. Leaded solder only. I get that for $20 on the kit it’s probably recommend, but a cable to the holder seems like just enough of an inconvenience to make me wonder. I assume it would be in my best interest to set the ISB delay to 0-5 seconds range?
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It's easier to just get the ISB version in my opinion. You can always desolder it and reattach it later if you change your mind. Making one isn't worth your time.
One benefit of a shorter timer and low setback temp is less baking of flux on the tip and resulting fumes. Aside from that the convenience is really the "instantly on" part as the station has sleep and standard setback anyway (though longer timers). To come out of standard setback the tip needs to see a temp drop or you can hit a button on the station.
You'll probably figure out your timeout preference as you use it. I tend to adjust things based on how annoying they are.
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The case of JBC CD-1BQF is probably NOT made of aluminium.
I had that station at my old workplace. It's plastic.
Some old JBC compact stations used to be made of aluminium I think...
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Got the ADS200 yesterday and I have a few observations.
First, it's interesting to see the late-70's technology--PLCC, red LEDs, 7805 regulator and 5V logic, iron transformer, etc. And then there's the low-volume industrial construction--extruded housing (but cut at jaunty angles), crude die-cast front frame that has been sandblasted to hide the grinding marks. Assembly was good except they left too much cable inside the ISB stand and it was hitting the iron. I'm not sure whether that's all good or bad--I suppose it cuts both ways. It's certainly durable and repairable.
At first glance it certainly works well. I got larger tips (the large Ultra miniwave and the 13/64" chisel) and with the latter I was able to solder up a penny in short order. Another review mentioned that you really can't get 120W out of it and so far I concur--even with the big chisel tip the power consumption of the unit peaked at 90W and the station draws ~8W at idle. I was using the 370C setting, perhaps you won't get 120W at that temp. Has anyone managed to get 120W of heat out of the unit?
As others have noted, the 7805 regulator plus its non-anchored heat sink (why?) are right up against the filter capacitor. Fortunately, since it is just "flapping in the breeze" you can just bend it out of the way a bit. I wondered if that really mattered and how hot the regulator was running, so I took an IR photo of it. There's about 28V being dropped across the regulator (I measured it) and after ten minutes or so it stablized at ~80C, so not terrible but not something you want butted up to the capacitor. Maybe some Kapton tape on the capacitor would be good. The whole circuit board seems to be sort of "hey, it works", which it does.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1827388;image)
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So on the power thing, I tried measuring the input current just to see how it behaves. It looks like it uses a balanced zero-crossing cycling at ~300ms intervals, so it is either on or off. The means that the temperature setting won't affect the maximum power throughput. This confirms that even with the 5.15mm/13/64" chisel tip, it is nowhere near the advertised 120W. This is the input current during a startup cycle, voltage was controlled to 120VAC +/- 1V. This means that there is maybe ~75-80W at the tip. Hmmmmm.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1827604;image)
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It's probably the calculated peak power rating of the station on paper rather than averaged measurement. JBC provides theirs as peak now so I assume Pace does the same.
This lines up with the T12/T15 handpiece of 70W. As well as the T245/A which was originally about 75W, then 90W and currently listed as 130W peak (I highly doubt their station suddenly jumped in performance).
Pace already had an entire series of Intelliheat ST stations which were rated about 80W and the WJS rated 120W (fairly fast stations). Back when I did the ADS200 heater supply voltage and resistance math (not a perfect calculation) I got about 90-110W pulses.
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It's probably the calculated peak power rating of the station on paper rather than averaged measurement.
If your 120W 'peak' is the tippy-top of the sinusoid, which is pretty much what you see in my screenshot, then (and only then) you have 120W. But that's a pretty scandalous way to rate power, sort of like PMP (Peak Musical Power) in those 5000W car audio amplifiers. It certainly makes me wonder how much the ADS200 actually outperforms a good T12/T15 based system for large soldering jobs. Anyone with both an FX-951 (or similar) and an ADS-200 system care to comment?
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I've got two FX951 but only a couple of tips as I didn't want to invest too heavily. Best I recall is the fine tip was about 14s from room temp to over 300C/570F. I disabled the lockout key and buzzer, had a short play and then threw them in a box.
One thing that really disappointed me, as the FX951 stations were secondhand and cheap (wouldn't have brought if they weren't) it also meant secondhand handpieces. The sleeves (sponges) are quiet disgusting and I think the handles are sort of a softer plastic. Anyway I ordered a new handpiece that came with a sleeve and first time I connected the sleeve into it, already started to see plastic fatigue in the handle.
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In case anyone reads this and is contemplating whether to take advantage of the Pace sale, I don't want to unfairly malign the ADS-200. There are some errors in the way I measured the current and a real issue with how my scope deals with gated measurements. It looks like the system can do at least 90-100W with 125V input and perhaps even more. I'll rewrite this post when I have more info.
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My JBC AM-2A rework station delivers about 90W to the C245 series cartridge...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jbc-am-2a-soldering-station/msg2324346/#msg2324346 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jbc-am-2a-soldering-station/msg2324346/#msg2324346)
I am not sure about new JBC compact stations. I do not have any.
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OK, I think I've resolved the largest issues. The first was my Klein x10 line splitter and Fluke i400E current clamp--it turns out that the position of the clamp makes more of a difference than it ought to and there is actually a volt or so sag in the splitter under load (yes, even at 1A!). I switched to an i1010 current clamp, verified it was accurate using a calibrator, compensated for all the sags to make sure the ADS-200 had at least 120V under load and switched the scope to AC coupling. This is about as accurate as I'm going to get using input current until I come up with an improved system for doing these measurements. Taking the ADS-200 apart far enough to measure the actual power to the handpiece directly is more than I want to do, unless someone has a handpiece where their cat chewed the cord.
The results show that there still is not much justification for calling this a 120W system. First I measured the test setup noise with nothing turned on, then I measured the input current with the handpiece disconnected. I also had a Kill-A-Watt in line, this agreed closely with my current measurements and showed that the ADS-200 has 8.0W and ~14.8VA standby, with a PF of 0.56. The Kill-A-Watt display can't react fast enough for the rest of the test. As you can see, the input current over a complete cycle--including the off time for tip measurement--is 843mA, or ~101VA. The current over just the actual on-time is 940mA, or ~113VA.
In my estimation, claiming a power output of more than 85W for this system as measured would be questionable. There's the possibility of almost 100W during the on time, but unless it has a mode where it can be on a greater percentage of the time than shown here, that's not a reasonable way of rating it IMO. And then there's likely to be some additional losses in the system, but since I can't accurately quantify them I'll give Pace the benefit of the doubt and assume that 100% of the difference between standby and full-on ends up in the tip.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1829101;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1829107;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1829113;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=1829119;image)
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The ADS200 is temp regulating with controlled 8-10ms pulses. Variances in line voltage and the tip sizes may change up averaged power as well. I've not logged any of the regulation, but it looked fine on my scope years back.
I don't think any manufacturers implied any station delivers the stations power rating "constantly" to the heater. Without measuring direct at the heater (accurately) power has only been a best guess when appraising performance.
What I look for is the heatup speed based on the tip mass. That mostly accounts for the regulation and you can assume you'll get a similar recovery speed. The important part is similar to JBC heat up speeds (which isn't so clear on their display) and better than the FX951. Even appears better than Hakkos newer FX971 station (100W rated handpiece). Seemingly Hakko thinks 6 extra button presses (than needed) to change the temp is still a good idea.
Check out this Unisolder video which shows the Paces handpiece heat up on a differently designed controller. Obviously you cannot expect that much controller in the ADS200 (Pace designed it to look like their other stations), but you can see the similar performance (on another 120W capable station).
I don't consider Paces station overrated. You can see the Unisolder station reporting just over 100W at full speed (Unisolder has a lower voltage I think). There are diminishing returns in performance over 100W for these class of handpieces, past a certain point the tip has to be wider to utilize it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqvJTetbqA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqvJTetbqA)
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I don't think any manufacturers implied any station delivers the stations power rating "constantly" to the heater.
Well, the ADS-200 never delivers 120W as far as I can tell, even with 132V input. And the lowly FX-888 appears to deliver 60-65W all the way up to 350C and even more (80+ W) at lower temps. My main concern here, beyond my belief that truth-in-advertising is important, is that I have a job coming up that involves some high thermal mass soldering tasks. I will definitely find out how the ADS-200 stacks up there.
The station is very nice to use and already has a home on my bench, so I'll move on for now and ask a different question. Which tips are best for mid-to-large thermal masses? And for normal assembly and rework? I've got the large ultra miniwave and the 13/64 ultra chisel. The tips seem very light, are the ultras much better than the standard? And are those really big chisels (1/4 and 5/16) worth getting?
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The station is very nice to use and already has a home on my bench, so I'll move on for now and ask a different question. Which tips are best for mid-to-large thermal masses? And for normal assembly and rework? I've got the large ultra miniwave and the 13/64 ultra chisel. The tips seem very light, are the ultras much better than the standard? And are those really big chisels (1/4 and 5/16) worth getting?
Big chisels are a huge help when doing things like shield cans or coaxial connectors, especially if big ground planes are involved.
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For the best thermal performance. Largest tip for the pad possible with greatest contact surface, but avoid exceeding the pad size too much. You can always use temperature control if it's too hot. Prep the pads and component by cleaning and use flux.
I have the tip tinned and cleaned immediately before using, place the tip on the pad and touch some solder into the junction, pause then pulse some solder either into the pcb/component or molten pool until I have a nice fillet. This helps by allowing the heat to transfer to the pcb/component preheating before full solder flow and by adding additional fresh flux from the solder wire which aids in wetting/flow.
If you cannot solder joints in a reasonable time then normally you have the temp too low or need additional preheating to reduce the delta temp. For drag soldering tips are typically multiple times wider than the pad width as you are preheating pads as you move, again start with a clean tip and use flux on the pins/pads.
Might as well get the ultra version of the tips where possible.
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Saw this old image of Paces cartridge handpiece design with a transparent socket, shows where the oring is etc. The TD100, TD100A and TD200 are basically the same thing internally. TD is an abbreviation of Thermodrive.
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Thanks! We just got a new unit at work and the o-ring came out. We had no idea where is was supposed to be located.
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Here is an image of the socket, it has a slight indentation to align the oring. When installing the cable back in, I found lowering the barrel vertically down onto the socket (note that it's keyed also) worked well. That way the oring won't fall sideways as you're tightening the end cap.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=979794;image)
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In my estimation, claiming a power output of more than 85W for this system as measured would be questionable. There's the possibility of almost 100W during the on time, but unless it has a mode where it can be on a greater percentage of the time than shown here, that's not a reasonable way of rating it IMO. And then there's likely to be some additional losses in the system, but since I can't accurately quantify them I'll give Pace the benefit of the doubt and assume that 100% of the difference between standby and full-on ends up in the tip.
Yes, agree, this confirms again what Dave and SDG saw, as we discussed years ago. Measuring the actual power consumption at the wall is a quick and easy way to see if a manufacturer is cheating the spec (some do, some don't).
Hakko does as well on their resistive heater irons:
- FM2027 70W claimed, peaks at 62W in reality
- FM2023 140W claimed, peak around 60W (its a tiny tweezer tip, 140W would be ridiculous)
As for the reasons behind this, mbless had a DIY design (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2560410/#msg2560410) where he had to take 4 cycles off out of 60Hz to get a stable temp reading (~93%?). My speculation was that Pace couldn't get the hardware working to that degree so settled on a dead-time of 70-80% to allow the thermocouple voltage to stabilize. We know it was just the one greybeard working on the firmware, so...
Anyway, for future iron designers, you are better off over-speccing the heater power initially. Use a lower resistance element than needed or higher PSU voltage, and then dial back consumed power to meet the actual spec based on current measurement.
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There should be a law for regulating soldering station manufacturers. Everytime a cycle is missed someone at Eevblog is forced to attend thermodynamics class. :)
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I purchased the ADS200 in the fall of 2018 with 8 tips for daily use in a repair shop. I've soldered a loooooot of things with this iron and I love it, no regrets. But, lately my tips seem to be blowing one by one and I've lost three in the past few weeks. Perhaps it's just their time as they've seen a lot of use.
Has anyone else seen this type of failure recently? I assume this is normal for a heavily used soldering tip.
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I've got mine about the same time and I only had one tip die - the one I use 99% of the time. There are a couple other I use for high thermal mass soldering, but those don't get a lot of use and seem to be doing fine.
I've got 5 replacement tips and that should last me a while.
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How do you tell if the tip went bad? Stop heating?
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In my case it stopped heating entirely and the LED displayed the same message as if tip was not inserted.
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I've had my ADS200 since October 2021. So far I'm still using the tips I ordered with it, other than one I had to replace after I caused some kind of internal damage by accidentally yanking on it. The instant setback stand really extends the life of the tips.
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It normally reports an error on the station. If the tip is out of the handpiece and cool you could measure across the gold plated contacts to see if you can measure the heater resistance. It has a k type thermocouple in each tip so if your multimeter has a temp function (many support k type) you could try to see if you get an ambient room measurement which would indicate the thermocouple in that specific tip is also functional.
The handpiece connection plug is serviceable if you have pulled on the cord too hard and damaged it (and you have ok soldering skills). If you have opened the handpiece then you may have inadvertently dislodged the oring that seals the tip connection. Which could prevent you from fully inserting the cartridge/tip (till you reseat the oring at least).
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Thanks to Shock's original thread I got one of these last week. Have not had time to use it, but hopefully this weekend I will.
I looked at JBC, but my email to them from my Czech email provider was blocked by their email provider, so unable to get in touch with them even after several tries.
Ersa Vario 2 looked good but ersa-shop.com ignored my message which was sent through their website. Trying to find a retail dealer with the unit I wanted was an effort in futility. There are millions of configurations.
I got the Pace through Welectron, paid huge money for the ADS200 ISB compared to American prices. It was around 520 euros as opposed to the 390 USD on sale now. Welectron has a good selection of tips so I got a few, only one which I wanted was out of stock. Welectron did not list the bundle which is currently showing on the Pace site. In the end, about 600 euros for the unit with ISB and 3 tips.
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FYI, Ersa-shop.com is a reseller, not Ersa itself. Conrad is probably the biggest European reseller that carries the full Ersa line. As far as configurations, that’s what the catalog is for. ;)
Of course, the ADS200 is a good choice too. The only downside in Europe (and the main reason I decided against buying one myself) is that it’s much harder to get Pace products in Europe. Farnell is the only large reseller that carries them, so if they’re sold out, the chances of being able to get, for example, a soldering tip elsewhere quickly is very low.
Weird that welectron didn’t honor the sale price: Pace expressly said that the sale was valid through resellers too, and the Swiss distributor, for example, charged practically the same prices as in USA. Of course, the Swiss and USA prices don’t include sales tax/VAT, while the welectron price includes the 19% German VAT. But nonetheless it looks like they didn’t honor the sale, which was extended until the end of the year IIRC.
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Welectron had a vey good price on the pace ads200 but it increased the price considerably overnight. At that point it made more sense to buy from Farnell. It was a bit cheaper.
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As for the reasons behind this, mbless had a DIY design (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2560410/#msg2560410) where he had to take 4 cycles off out of 60Hz to get a stable temp reading (~93%?). My speculation was that Pace couldn't get the hardware working to that degree so settled on a dead-time of 70-80% to allow the thermocouple voltage to stabilize. We know it was just the one greybeard working on the firmware, so...
Are these tips similiar to T12, so it is just a heater in a series with thermocouple?
Is it even worth to think about DIY if TD200 handle is twice as expensive as genuine T245 handle?
Another curious thing is that both Pace and JBC states that tip calibration is not needed, one option is that genuine tips are each equal quality or they do some tricks in FW.
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As for the reasons behind this, mbless had a DIY design (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2560410/#msg2560410) where he had to take 4 cycles off out of 60Hz to get a stable temp reading (~93%?). My speculation was that Pace couldn't get the hardware working to that degree so settled on a dead-time of 70-80% to allow the thermocouple voltage to stabilize. We know it was just the one greybeard working on the firmware, so...
Are these tips similiar to T12, so it is just a heater in a series with thermocouple?
Is it even worth to think about DIY if TD200 handle is twice as expensive as genuine T245 handle?
Another curious thing is that both Pace and JBC states that tip calibration is not needed, one option is that genuine tips are each equal quality or they do some tricks in FW.
Not the same. Pay more get more. Pace tips are higher power with extra thick iron plaiting that outlasts any T12 or JBC tips. WMMV
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As for the reasons behind this, mbless had a DIY design (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2560410/#msg2560410) where he had to take 4 cycles off out of 60Hz to get a stable temp reading (~93%?). My speculation was that Pace couldn't get the hardware working to that degree so settled on a dead-time of 70-80% to allow the thermocouple voltage to stabilize. We know it was just the one greybeard working on the firmware, so...
Are these tips similiar to T12, so it is just a heater in a series with thermocouple?
Is it even worth to think about DIY if TD200 handle is twice as expensive as genuine T245 handle?
Another curious thing is that both Pace and JBC states that tip calibration is not needed, one option is that genuine tips are each equal quality or they do some tricks in FW.
Yes heater in series with thermocouple same as T12: https://hackaday.io/project/94905-hakko-revenge/log/144548-hakko-t12-thermocouple-is-not-type-k (https://hackaday.io/project/94905-hakko-revenge/log/144548-hakko-t12-thermocouple-is-not-type-k)
The price of handle and stand is $200, so for low budget DIY its not worth it. If you really want premium aluminum handle over JBC plastic handle, then it might be worth playing around with.
Tip calibration is not needed in the sense that if the tip is idle the temperature will be stable and within a suitable range, yes. Its probably not super difficult to produce thermocouples that have a consistent <5C temperature spec. However, this doesn't mean that under load the end of the tip will have the same temperature, obviously longer and thinner tips will suffer from higher drop.
Not the same. Pay more get more. Pace tips are higher power with extra thick iron plaiting that outlasts any T12 or JBC tips. WMMV
That was not the question being asked. Hakko T15 are $17, Pace tips are $17, JBC C245 are $30.
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Locally this is $200 for TD200 handle and another $200 for stand, where whole ADS200 station is about $500, so DIY project is not a big deal. For $200 there's also TD100 handle with stand, but it has lower power than TD200 if I see correctly.
I've got some T15 tips already, so I'm not really sure if it is worth to change them.
How about handle (over)heating? Is it comparable eg. with FM2028?
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Locally this is $200 for TD200 handle and another $200 for stand, where whole ADS200 station is about $500, so DIY project is not a big deal. For $200 there's also TD100 handle with stand, but it has lower power than TD200 if I see correctly.
I've got some T15 tips already, so I'm not really sure if it is worth to change them.
How about handle (over)heating? Is it comparable eg. with FM2028?
Handle stays dead cold even after hours of work..
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That was not the question being asked. Hakko T15 are $17, Pace tips are $17, JBC C245 are $30.
It depends on the distributor. Proices may vary according to country and distributor. Basic PACE TD-200 series tips are rather cheap, but special shapes are expensive. Prices might be $18.90, $46.60 or even $90.90. I mean US Dollars.
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For $200 there's also TD100 handle with stand, but it has lower power than TD200 if I see correctly.
TD100 handle is dated and there is quite no reason to buy it, unless you have an old PACE ST50 station or so.
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Has anyone noticed their ADS200 humming? I'm not sure if mine used to do it, but I can now hear a low humming the entire time it's turned on, during setback and even after it times out and powers down. I can also hear it pulsing while it's actually heating off setback.
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Humming is most likely caused by loose laminations of the transformer, caused by its mounting screws getting loose.
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Has anyone noticed their ADS200 humming? I'm not sure if mine used to do it, but I can now hear a low humming the entire time it's turned on, during setback and even after it times out and powers down. I can also hear it pulsing while it's actually heating off setback.
Best to contact Pace directly and get advice, may be something simple. There is a couple of mounting points, transformer mounts to the mounting plate and mounting plate mounts to the chassis aside from the transformer itself.
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How about handle (over)heating? Is it comparable eg. with FM2028?
I don't use the Hakko FM2028 much but have heard people complain it gets a bit warm and sweaty (despite it having a foam cushion).
The Pace handle is one piece of machined aluminum (according to marketing it's aircraft grade). It's not directly coupled to any metal on the cartridge tip but via the cartridges plastic (nylon?) key. So the handle acts like a large heatsink rather than an insulator (like most plastic handles). There is an ESD safe grip on the outside but it doesn't add any bulk to the handle, unlike the Hakko FM2028 and others. By comparison the Hakko handle feels plastic and flimsy and the snap on sleeve seems totally unnecessary.
I've not noticed any heat or discomfort, you can feel more heat from the front of the tip than through the handle (which is normal on fairly short tip to grip handpieces). Pace says the handle stays around body temp.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=507950;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/hakko-fx951-advice-needed/?action=dlattach;attach=780795;image)
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I wonder how long the rubber od the PACE handle will survive. But it should be a good quality rubber.
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Has anyone noticed their ADS200 humming?
I can hear a quiet humming when I put my ear on the ADS2000. It is a normal 50Hz humming.
You can try to tighten screws on the transformer.
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Has anyone noticed their ADS200 humming? I'm not sure if mine used to do it, but I can now hear a low humming the entire time it's turned on, during setback and even after it times out and powers down. I can also hear it pulsing while it's actually heating off setback.
Yes, mine has hummed from new. If the room is quiet I can hear from across the room.
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Your desk may be amplifying that. Try placing the station on a mouse pad or silicone baking sheet.
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Your desk may be amplifying that. Try placing the station on a mouse pad or silicone baking sheet.
Yeah, I tried a sorbothane pad that someone had put in a huge isolation transformer I bought, but it made no difference. It's no big deal, but not something I expected from something of this quality. It'd be outside the warranty now, so I might pop the bonnet and nip up the laminations.....
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I just listened to my station. I can hear slight buzz when I place my year on the case. But it goes away entirely as soon as my ear stops touching the case. It looks like there is a lot of variability.
May be also there is a difference between 50 / 60 Hz operation or different voltages.
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The ADS200 I purchased from TEquipment in Jan 2023 crapped out a few weeks ago - a few days before the warranty was up. I turned it on, stepped away from the bench to grab the part I was about to work on, came back and the iron was smoking and glowing bright orange. I had the tweezers on it at the time.
Luckily support came thru and sent a new board and replacements for the tips that got destroyed, once I gave them the s/n. They mentioned something about a substitute component used during the shortages that wasn't up to snuff in the thermal regulation circuit. It seems my worry about the warranty about to expire was unnecessary - they said they would have stood by it if it was past the date...
I noticed the bad board has MOSFETS in Q2, Q36, Q37 labelled T06P10 and the replacement one, which you can see was reworked has DMP6023's in those places. I have some DMP6023's on order, gonna try to replace them on the old board since they didn't ask for it back, to see if I end up with a spare.
Other than that, I had a great first year with the ADS200 + regular iron & minitweez!
Edit:: the DMP6023's came in and I replaced the T06P10's on the old board. It is now working again. Only one of the 3 was actually shorted - Q2. Q36 and Q37 were fine.
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The ADS200 I purchased from TEquipment in Jan 2023 crapped out a few weeks ago - a few days before the warranty was up. I turned it on, stepped away from the bench to grab the part I was about to work on, came back and the iron was smoking and glowing bright orange. I had the tweezers on it at the time.
That's worrying I got mine in january 2023 as well. Is there a way of telling if it might be affected by looking at its PCB(s)?
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The changes I noticed on the new board compared to the old board are noted in my post
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The changes I noticed on the new board compared to the old board are noted in my post
Yes, sorry for asking a dumb question. :-[
I'm a bit hesitant to open mine up to check. Can you post pics of the bad board?
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I just listened to my station. I can hear slight buzz when I place my year on the case. But it goes away entirely as soon as my ear stops touching the case. It looks like there is a lot of variability.
May be also there is a difference between 50 / 60 Hz operation or different voltages.
Yeah. Mine is silent too. Very light "oomph" when heating cycle kicks in, and only in a completely quiet room.
ADS200 is my daily workhorse. The JBC sits mostly unused.
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I just listened to my station. I can hear slight buzz when I place my year on the case. But it goes away entirely as soon as my ear stops touching the case. It looks like there is a lot of variability.
May be also there is a difference between 50 / 60 Hz operation or different voltages.
Yeah. Mine is silent too. Very light "oomph" when heating cycle kicks in, and only in a completely quiet room.
ADS200 is my daily workhorse. The JBC sits mostly unused.
Mine is also completely silent. I'm on 50Hz 240V
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Mine is not completely silent and it's rather new. Got it 3-4 months ago.
You can hear a small hum once you turn it on.
Not very impressed but I can live with that since the fume extractor is way louder.
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I'm really liking this setup. I had many el-cheapo irons over the years and finally got the Hakko FX-888D a few years ago. I like that the tips are cheap and the system works ok, but I felt there is lack of heat control. I bought the Pace ISB setup a few months ago and it is one of those pieces of gear that seems to disappear and just do what it's supposed to. I don't have to think about anything except the joint when I use it. Not cheap in Europe but still worth the money.
I don't hear any noise from mine but I haven't paid that much attention. And I have a window open almost constantly so there is some level of ambient noise, even in the quiet outskirts of Prague.
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The changes I noticed on the new board compared to the old board are noted in my post
Yes, sorry for asking a dumb question. :-[
I'm a bit hesitant to open mine up to check. Can you post pics of the bad board?
All you do is take the 4 screws out of the front and it drops down and you can see. It's easy.
So, I repaired my old board tonight. I removed the 3 MOSFETS that I noticed they changed for the new board. Only one of them was shorted - Q2. I replaced all 3 with the other model and it works again! So now I have a spare board - cool.
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I noticed the bad board has MOSFETS in Q2, Q36, Q37 labelled T06P10 and the replacement one, which you can see was reworked has DMP6023's in those places. I have some DMP6023's on order, gonna try to replace them on the old board since they didn't ask for it back, to see if I end up with a spare.
Edit:: the DMP6023's came in and I replaced the T06P10's on the old board. It is now working again. Only one of the 3 was actually shorted - Q2. Q36 and Q37 were fine.
So I opened the unit, like you said it's very easy.
Q34, Q35, Q36 and Q37 seem to be SOT223's, Q34=Q35 is marked ZXMN 4AO6 and Q36=Q37 is labeled DII1 P6023. Looks like I'm lucky and I've got the good stuff!
In any case, they're SOT223's and not PowerDI3333-8's so they'd be easy to replace.
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I noticed the bad board has MOSFETS in Q2, Q36, Q37 labelled T06P10 and the replacement one, which you can see was reworked has DMP6023's in those places. I have some DMP6023's on order, gonna try to replace them on the old board since they didn't ask for it back, to see if I end up with a spare.
Edit:: the DMP6023's came in and I replaced the T06P10's on the old board. It is now working again. Only one of the 3 was actually shorted - Q2. Q36 and Q37 were fine.
So I opened the unit, like you said it's very easy.
Q34, Q35, Q36 and Q37 seem to be SOT223's, Q34=Q35 is marked ZXMN 4AO6 and Q36=Q37 is labeled DII1 P6023. Looks like I'm lucky and I've got the good stuff!
In any case, they're SOT223's and not PowerDI3333-8's so they'd be easy to replace.
Interesting. I just opened mine. Q2/ Q36 / Q37 are "DII1 P6023" but Q34/ Q35 are "W148 A 788055".
FWIW, The chip is RevF while the board itself is RevE.
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Interesting. I just opened mine. Q2/ Q36 / Q37 are "DII1 P6023" but Q34/ Q35 are "W148 A 788055".
FWIW, The chip is RevF while the board itself is RevE.
Same here, the PLCC says Rev F 1187-0351, the board has a label with Rev E 6020-0258.
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Hello,
I bought some tips which are supposed to be brand new. Two of them seem fine (new and shiny) but the bigger one seems like used to me.
Can you please tell me what you think? Hopefully the photos quality is good enough...
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FWIW, I got a reply from PACE. Any thoughts? :)
All of our tips are tested to varying degrees. The one in your picture was likely used to verify tip temperatures were within the expected range or the more widespread testing process we use ran a little longer than usual for that one piece. This type of testing would not have taken any appreciable amount of lifespan from your new tip.
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They are saying they have tested it for you and that the test did not affect the tip's lifetime.
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They are saying they have tested it for you and that the test did not affect the tip's lifetime.
I know what they're saying but thanks anyway.
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What does it look like if you tin it and wipe it off on the sponge? I can't tell what I'm looking at, specifically if the iron plating is uneven or chipped.
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What does it look like if you tin it and wipe it off on the sponge? I can't tell what I'm looking at, specifically if the iron plating is uneven or chipped.
I haven't tried it yet because I was considering to return it but since PACE confirms it's a brand new tip, I think I'm gonna keep it and hope for the best.
Still, not super impressed with the appearance, considering how nice all the tips I have bought in the past look but it's functional, it's fine with me.
I will most likely use it next week.
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I bought three tips with mine. The first one I used looked great. The second one looked like hell (bumpy, rough) but did clean up fine with a few stabs in the brass wool. Have not looked at the third yet.
I guess Pace could do a better job on this appearance-wise, but if they test every tip I'm impressed.
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I guess Pace could do a better job on this appearance-wise, but if they test every tip I'm impressed.
Supposedly they are all tested for 5 seconds, as they had issues with failures in the past, you can read the post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2183462/#msg2183462 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg2183462/#msg2183462)
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Looks far worse than it is, just need to warm it up and immediately add fresh solder, clean and repeat a few times.
That dullness is just a bit of oxidization on top of the protective solder layer they added. Unless the plating has worn the tip is fine. They will all get discolored when warmed, but when used for actual soldering you see more discoloration above the tinned surface (caused by flux).
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https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-soldering-station-td-200-isb
The ADS200 AccuDrive® System has been updated!
As we continue to bring you the best in soldering & rework systems, we’re proud to announce a major update to the ADS200 AccudDrive® System. Starting in the Spring of 2024, the ADS200 will now be called the ADS200 PLUS. Through redevelopment of the entire thermal cycle, from power source to tip heater cartridge, the ADS200 PLUS is now more responsive when higher thermal demand is required in the soldering process, as well as offering improved thermal recovery. PACE is happy to provide these enhancements at no extra cost!
Looks nice!!
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"We won't admit we screwed up the original performance spec"
I don't understand the part about the tips though, they redesigned the tips? Where is the info on what was changed in the tip specifically I wonder.
Will be interesting to see a teardown, and if its the same circuit or not.
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They say "From power source to tip heater"..
Does that mean they changed:
- electronic board and/or other parts of hardware
- there is only new FW (so it can be applied to old stations boards)
Tip changes are OK, when old tips go I will get new ones with better performance but will it be any better without new controller?
Can existing users upgrade (just electronic board, or FW) ?
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Does anybody understand what the "improvements" actually are?
"We won't admit we screwed up the original performance spec"
This.
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After seeing the SDG video of the original non-plus version, I can see why a plus version might be desirable if it can make the iron more responsive to high thermal demand.
I'm in the position of needing a new soldering station and would love to save money with the ADS200 (ideally the plus version), but currently, even with the non-plus version, with two soldering tips, the price difference is just £169 cheaper than a JBC soldering station with two soldering tips. I don't do production volume, so the JBC tips will easily last a decade, so tip cost is not such a high concern (I appreciate that might be different for, say, those doing production volumes). Plus, the tip selection is vast with JBC, and has known good high thermal demand performance, so to me it's still more of a risk to consider the ADS200 than a more mature system.
Based on that, I couldn't justify to myself not paying the additional £169. Admittedly, it's not a like-for-like setup (I've ordered JBC CD-2SQF), but I can live with the differences.
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Does that mean they changed:
- electronic board and/or other parts of hardware
- there is only new FW (so it can be applied to old stations boards)
Tip changes are OK, when old tips go I will get new ones with better performance but will it be any better without new controller?
Can existing users upgrade (just electronic board, or FW) ?
I would think of two changes that could be made, one simple and one obvious but maybe not simple.
First, since the thermocouple-in-series design requires that the power be turned off in order to read the thermocouple, reducing the frequency of the thermocouple reads would increase the power on time. In order not to lose the excellent tip temperature control under normal operation, they could have the system skip a reading or two whenever the tip temperature drops by a certain amount. So +/-5C they'd take the temp readings at the normal rate, at -5 to -10C they'd skip every other reading and -10C or more they'd just take a reading every 4th time, or maybe even less. Using this technique they might get the system to put out 20-25% more power according to what I was seeing in my earlier post.
The other obvious improvement would be either to get the thermocouple closer to the tip surface or to make all of the larger tips have a similar thermal resistance in this area so the controller can accurately compensate by boosting the target when the power levels are high.
In any case, it would be great if they just told us, even greater if they made the improvements available through an upgrade. Now if their fix was to alter the transformer windings for a higher secondary output, then I guess we're all bag holders. They might not want to tell us in that case...
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Steve's videos should not be considered scientific results. The coin test in part compares the regulation of a station. Which ever station overshoots the most during thermal recovery will get the best result, in fact it's possible to beat the Metcal this way.
The video did highlight that the Pace station showed 122.9W peak during heat up and 114.9W peak power during the coin test. The type of test, equipment and measurement technique were not ideal. The Pace ADS200 has a handy led on the front of the station to show when it's heating and is more accurate than most youtubers.
Which reminds me there was a video I saw today showing a JBC heat up in a few seconds. The guy started counting from when the temp showed on the display (already past melt point). By that logic you don't even need to turn them on.
The JBC early tip life failure won't go away because of words alone. You can reduce it by good cleaning habits and by limiting your alloy and flux choice, avoid contamination and boards originally soldered with chinesium. It's "safer" though to pay attention in Steve's video and buy a Metcal if you can afford the TCO and want the best coin test performance money can buy. ;)
But if you are after the most pointless performance due to the JBC overshooting higher than "most" Metcal set temp tips. When you do a prolonged test over many minutes the JBC starts to average ahead. So Steve's been lying to us all along. ;)
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The Pace ADS200 has a handy led on the front of the station to show when it's heating and is more accurate than most youtubers.
It also has a handy display that shows how much the temperature drops under heavy demand, although that doesn't include thermal resistance between the thermocouple and the tip surface. It's good that they are transparent about showing that drop, but it would be better if they improved on it. It seems that they have and now we all want to know how--and if we can get the improved product somehow. If they could get the maximum short-term average power up 20%, that would be a big deal IMO.
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So Steve's been lying to us all along. ;)
Why would he?
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I'm being sarcastic. There is a scaled up version of his coin test, where JBC is king of the large copper unscientifically controlled tests.
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I'm being sarcastic. There is a scaled up version of his coin test, where JBC is king of the large copper unscientifically controlled tests.
I think the 2p test and others are OK for comparing the effective power output of a system, but for actually doing large things perhaps a separate tool is appropriate? None of these stations can compete with American Beauty.
https://www.grainger.com/product/5ZGU9 (https://www.grainger.com/product/5ZGU9)
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Regarding the 10-year life I'm hoping to expect, that wasn't pulled out of the air. I have already used JBC tips for about 10 years (regular use, but not production volume use). I only use decent brand solder/flux for constructing prototypes, but the tips have also experienced desoldering of typical made-in-China boards, e.g., consumer products, plus the occasional AliExpress-bought board, i.e., a complete mix.
My tip-cleaning regime is simple; just steel wool. I don't feel I'm being super careful. At some point in ten years, I've also absent-mindedly pressed hard sideways because one of my most-used tips has a very slight bend, but I still use it.
Since the tips will last so long (I can't comment on production use as mentioned before), to me it's a no-brainer, if the cost difference isn't that much, to go with the more mature option.
I totally get that the large coin test is not representative of typical real-life use, but the result can scale downward. My 'general-purpose' tip is 1mm sized, and I use that for SOIC, SOT-23, 0603, 0805, and most through-hole parts (e.g. several-amp rectifiers, and some connectors), because I expect the soldering station to just pump out a lot of heat rapidly when I move to the larger components, even if that's not the optimal tip. Only when I get to much larger connectors, will I want to switch out to a bigger tip, or when doing finer SMD, or when doing drag soldering, use different tips.
I get my soldering station tomorrow, I won't be doing a coin test experiment, I will just try a few connectors etc to be sure it's working as I hope. I won't write it up here since it's not ADS200-related, and there are probably plenty of reviews of JBC stations elsewhere. I just wanted to mention that right now (not with the plus version), I struggled to justify to myself that the relatively small cost saving was worth it, in comparison to other systems which lets face it, are known to be more mature (performance under high thermal demand and greater tip selection). I just can't see a reason to take the risk for the small cost saving (of course, in different regions, the cost difference may be more significant, but a couple of hundred $ spread out over a decade or so of anticipated use, seems in the noise).
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I hope you don't do that coin test, very few viewers would realize the 2p coins aren't even pure copper but bronze and steel which are poor thermal conductors with about a 20% variance, again non scientific. It's up to you whatever you buy, but your basing some of your reasoning on a skewed test.
The Pace is about half the price of the JBC in the US and tweezer compatible. You might be surprised to know if you brought a certain amount of Pace tips with the savings you could buy a Metcal hahaha. Anyway, enjoy your new station. :D
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When I can get hold of it in the UK, I'll test out the new version.
Don't worry I have no bias here, but I never really got to the bottom of my issues with the original ADS200. It simply doesn't deliver - I've tried to use it extensively but it always fails on anything other than light duty work, so I'm not sure if mine was faulty.
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When I can get hold of it in the UK, I'll test out the new version.
That'll be great. As a current owner I really do hope that an "upgrade" is possible.
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It simply doesn't deliver - I've tried to use it extensively but it always fails on anything other than light duty work, so I'm not sure if mine was faulty.
My observations are similar. I'm quite happy with the unit and the system overall, but for larger work it is only marginally better than my FX-888 with a large tip and the temperature cranked up.
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The same things been observed with the FX951 in one shot tests. It's due to the mass of the T18 on the heater, it's deceptively large. But it's also slow recovering and has less than ideal thermocouple placement. I'd be surprised if it was as effective with multiple successive joints and longer dwell times. Recovery speed starts to become a more dominant indicator of performance then.
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Since it's (perhaps) unlikely that the transformer has changed in the Plus version, the current board layout looks straightforward enough that, worst-case, once someone takes high-res photos of the Plus board, perhaps it's possible to easily reverse-engineer any potential board modifications, if it's not just a firmware upgrade.
It would be nice if Pace supplied a modification guide (ideally with a components pack e.g. the Flash chip, etc, or at least a parts list and firmware download), or a replacement board swap offer (say at a very low cost) because it's unfair to existing owners if there is no upgrade path.
Just speculating, but I suspect it's going to be an easily solvable problem with few changes since they labeled it Plus rather than (say) ADS210 or 250 or whatever! and they also mention that it's the same price.
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Since it's (perhaps) unlikely that the transformer has changed in the Plus version, the current board layout looks straightforward enough that, worst-case, once someone takes high-res photos of the Plus board, perhaps it's possible to easily reverse-engineer any potential board modifications, if it's not just a firmware upgrade.
It would be nice if Pace supplied a modification guide (ideally with a components pack e.g. the Flash chip, etc, or at least a parts list and firmware download), or a replacement board swap offer (say at a very low cost) because it's unfair to existing owners if there is no upgrade path.
Just speculating, but I suspect it's going to be an easily solvable problem with few changes since they labeled it Plus rather than (say) ADS210 or 250 or whatever! and they also mention that it's the same price.
I don't think board mods are necessary if trafo wasn't changed. There is nothing in current design that limits power in hardware.
Most likely there was tip redesign and FW that works with that, pushing current more aggressively.
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Perhaps they moved the capacitor further away from the regulator 8)
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Since it's (perhaps) unlikely that the transformer has changed in the Plus version, the current board layout looks straightforward enough that, worst-case, once someone takes high-res photos of the Plus board, perhaps it's possible to easily reverse-engineer any potential board modifications, if it's not just a firmware upgrade.
It would be nice if Pace supplied a modification guide (ideally with a components pack e.g. the Flash chip, etc, or at least a parts list and firmware download), or a replacement board swap offer (say at a very low cost) because it's unfair to existing owners if there is no upgrade path.
Just speculating, but I suspect it's going to be an easily solvable problem with few changes since they labeled it Plus rather than (say) ADS210 or 250 or whatever! and they also mention that it's the same price.
I don't think board mods are necessary if trafo wasn't changed. There is nothing in current design that limits power in hardware.
Most likely there was tip redesign and FW that works with that, pushing current more aggressively.
Given that the part numbers aren’t even changing, it’s very unlikely they could change the tip design significantly without breaking compatibility with existing stations. Tweaks to geometry and internal construction? Perhaps.
My hunch is that the overwhelming share of the improvement is from PID loop tweaking, something they could easily offer as a firmware upgrade. (Which in the past has been done in the form of shipping a replacement MCU.)
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Also, while clicking through the Pace website to try and find more detail (without success) on the Plus upgrade, I came across this news post: https://paceworldwide.com/news/mbt450-rework-system-available-summer
The MBT450 is real! It was originally promised years ago, and instead the MBT360 was released. They’re finally releasing a station with a display more advanced than a 1602 character LCD! Basically it seems to be a four-channel rework station with two AccuDrive ports for the iron and tweezers, one SensaTemp port for the desoldering iron (and others), and a new hot air handpiece that looks like a slightly fancier fan-in-handle handpiece like the ubiquitous 850D.
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When I can get hold of it in the UK, I'll test out the new version.
Don't worry I have no bias here, but I never really got to the bottom of my issues with the original ADS200. It simply doesn't deliver - I've tried to use it extensively but it always fails on anything other than light duty work, so I'm not sure if mine was faulty.
As an aside, IIRC you also tested the Ersa i-Con and weren’t blown away. FYI, this summer, they released the Mark II versions of the i-Con system, with all the changes being in the handpiece and tips, with the Mark II handpiece being explicitly compatible with existing stations. They claim a 20% improvement in performance. Having used the original extensively, and now the Mark II, I can’t say that I feel there’s a huge difference, but I haven’t tested them side by side.
Anyhow, it might be worth ordering a new handpiece and matching tips (which are actually cheaper than the originals, despite no longer needing to buy a separate ferrule thingy for each one!) to do a test and comparison for your channel.
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Oh a Pace MBT450. That is a nice clean display layout and design. I like what they did integrating the visifilter as well, looks quicker to change over and less obtrusive than hanging out the front. It appears to be about the same footprint as the MBT350 and MBT360.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=2144119;image)
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It is probably made of steel and/or aluminium. Pace MBT450 looks a lot more industrial than any today's JBC station. My workmate has a JBC DDE, that is made of plastic. Especially the tiltable LCD does not look very durable. It probably cannot show the temperature of all connected tools simultaneously. On the other hand, soldering performance might be better than PACE. There is a true two-channel AT420 hot tweezer with some 160 Watts. PACE has no such hot tweezer. Only that 120 Watt "MT-200 AccuDrive MiniTweez Thermal Tweezer Handpiece" that has the two cartridges connected in parallel or something.
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There is a true two-channel AT420 hot tweezer with some 160 Watts. PACE has no such hot tweezer.
According to JBC they have no such hot tweezer either.
160W exceeds the DI, DDE and DME rated channel power. The DI is only 130W total, the DDE (a 2 channel station) rated 190W total, based on that alone I would not be claiming "true two-channel" or "160W" anything.
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Soldering station manufacturers do seem to love playing games with power ratings, don’t they?
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Its a small mistake by Hydrawerk:
- AT420/HT420 are rated 80W max per cartridge
- DDE control unit is rated 150W per tool
So peak power draw would be 150W instead of 160W. Thermocouple feedback is per cartridge as mentioned.
But yes the "power spec wars" tend to confuse the masses. Which is why people like Project Farm and SDG are so valuable IMO.
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Its a small mistake by Hydrawerk:
- AT420/HT420 are rated 80W max per cartridge
- DDE control unit is rated 150W per tool
So peak power draw would be 150W instead of 160W. Thermocouple feedback is per cartridge as mentioned.
But yes the "power spec wars" tend to confuse the masses. Which is why people like Project Farm and SDG are so valuable IMO.
Funny thing is that on their web site https://www.jbctools.com/ (https://www.jbctools.com/) they don't even specify power for cartridges.... Can you please point me to a place/document where JBC even specifies the cartridge power. They do for stations but I can't seem to find specification for tips...
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Funny thing is that on their web site https://www.jbctools.com/ (https://www.jbctools.com/) they don't even specify power for cartridges.... Can you please point me to a place/document where JBC even specifies the cartridge power. They do for stations but I can't seem to find specification for tips...
Tips aren't specified no. I just assume they all use the power available, software limited by the handle or station value, as the cold tip resistance is super low (2.4 to 2.5 ohm for 245/420).
ADS200 cold tip resistance is 4-4.2 ohm. About 135W at 24Vdc.
AT420: https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/manual-at420-adjustable-tweezers-0030510_ID-229722.pdf (https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/manual-at420-adjustable-tweezers-0030510_ID-229722.pdf)
DDE: https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/manual-dde-control-unit-0027023_ID-222436.pdf (https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/manual-dde-control-unit-0027023_ID-222436.pdf)
HT470: 250W per cartridge, but thats just obscene: https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/manual-ht470-thermal-tweezers-0029612_ID-229658.pdf (https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/manual-ht470-thermal-tweezers-0029612_ID-229658.pdf)
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If I recall correctly the Pace ADS200 supplies roughly 30V DC to the heater not 24V.
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If I recall correctly the Pace ADS200 supplies roughly 30V DC to the heater not 24V.
Not quite. Looking at the schematic, it powers the heater with full-wave rectified*, but unsmoothed voltage from the transformer, so the peak voltage will be around 30V, but the RMS voltage is 24V, the same as the unrectified 24V AC. They then do zero-crossing detection to only switch at 0V.
The same rectified AC then goes through a diode and from that point is smoothed with a capacitor, creating a 30V DC rail which then powers the 7805 to generate the +5V rail for all the control circuits.
*Through a full-bridge MOSFET rectifier, so no diode drop losses! :)
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Looking at the schematic,
Where are you seeing a schematic for the ADS 200?
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I was talking 30V DC peak (loaded) measured from the handpiece on a scope. Would vary a little based on the mains supply but that would be adjusted for in the stations temp regulation.
Bdunham7 there isn't an official one, Mbless drew one after the station was released, prior to working on his own controller.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-)$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054
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I was talking 30V DC peak (loaded) measured from the handpiece on a scope. Would vary a little based on the mains supply but that would be adjusted for in the stations temp regulation.
Bdunham7 there isn't an official one, Mbless drew one after the station was released, prior to working on his own controller.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-)$239)/msg1742054/#msg1742054
clickable URL (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg3737467/#msg3737467) (The stupid forum software hates dollar signs in URLs if not manually wrapped in URL tags.)
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Yeah there is no capacitance on that VAA rail shown in the schematic, 30V peak then RMS would be less, 21.21V in this case not 24V as I had used.
21V RMS, then absolute maximum peak power is ~112W.
If there is capacitance, then RMS would be higher. You'd need to measure the scope waveform.
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Yeah there is no capacitance on that VAA rail shown in the schematic, 30V peak then RMS would be less, 21.21V in this case not 24V as I had used.
21V RMS, then absolute maximum peak power is ~112W.
I haven’t been able to find any actual specs on heater voltage or resistance, nor any measurements, but it does not follow from a lower voltage that the power would be lower, since they will have designed the heaters to match the voltage they chose.
If there is capacitance, then RMS would be higher. You'd need to measure the scope waveform.
Yes, but there is no capacitance, and since the design relies on zero-crossing detection, there cannot be any capacitance on VAA.
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I haven’t been able to find any actual specs on heater voltage or resistance, nor any measurements, but it does not follow from a lower voltage that the power would be lower, since they will have designed the heaters to match the voltage they chose.
4 to 4.2 ohms as mentioned above. I measured 4.24 ohms. Real world slightly more due to wire, contact, and other resistances.
Heater resistance should have been designed lower, 3.5 ohms or so. Or transformer voltage higher, etc.
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I haven’t been able to find any actual specs on heater voltage or resistance, nor any measurements, but it does not follow from a lower voltage that the power would be lower, since they will have designed the heaters to match the voltage they chose.
4 to 4.2 ohms as mentioned above. I measured 4.24 ohms. Real world slightly more due to wire, contact, and other resistances.
Heater resistance should have been designed lower, 3.5 ohms or so. Or transformer voltage higher, etc.
I'm measuring 4.9-5.0 ohms on mine at the connector, including an large chisel Ultra tip. At the cartridge contacts 4.6-4.7 ohms. I didn't note any power difference between the Ultra and standard tips. If they can deliver 24VRMS to the connector, then you have 115-125W at the connector with about 7W getting lost in the wiring. That means that they might not have had to alter either the transformer or the tips to make the improvements. It will be interesting to see what changes they have made just as soon as someone tears one down.
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It will be interesting to see what changes they have made just as soon as someone tears one down.
It would be nice if PACE was showing some transparency and let the people know. Sales speech doesn't help much.
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Manufacturers don't tend to publish detailed technical changes between models, or even board revisions. Back when schematics were supplied they rarely did then either, you had to figure it out yourself.
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Manufacturers don't tend to publish detailed technical changes between models, or even board revisions. Back when schematics were supplied they rarely did then either, you had to figure it out yourself.
Well fair enough but the problem is that a sales speech won't convince me to upgrade/buy the newer version.
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I've been wanting to buy another power supply so I can have one dedicated to the tweezers I bought separately. Maybe I'll buy a plus (gotta make sure the vendor will actually send me a plus) and take a look inside. The firmware on an ADS200 is stored on the Atmel 89C51RB2, trying to figure out how to read that with this Xgecu T48 I purchased recently. They have a definition for the RD2 which is the 64K version but not the RB2 (16K)
I'm guessing it's locked though? I don't know much about this stuff.
Would be cool if its just a new firmware...
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I've been wanting to buy another power supply so I can have one dedicated to the tweezers I bought separately. Maybe I'll buy a plus (gotta make sure the vendor will actually send me a plus) and take a look inside. The firmware on an ADS200 is stored on the Atmel 89C51RB2, trying to figure out how to read that with this Xgecu T48 I purchased recently. They have a definition for the RD2 which is the 64K version but not the RB2 (16K)
I'm guessing it's locked though? I don't know much about this stuff.
Would be cool if its just a new firmware...
Thanks, please let us know if you end up buying the plus version.
Would be cool if its just a new firmware...
Would be even cooler if PACE let current and potential users know what has changed.
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Would be cool if its just a new firmware...
Would be even cooler if PACE let current and potential users know what has changed.
Has anyone actually asked? Pace seems like the kind of company that would tell us, given how open they’ve been in the past.
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Probably both hardware and firmware was changed.
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Too late to see request, I have a Pace TJ-85 and Foot Pedal that I will be selling/trading in couple months.
Downsizing my shop, after 40+ years.
greg
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During COVID (early 2020), I had a Pace ADS200 power-up, but a blank screen.
This was an early ADS200 production model.
Talked to Aaron Cohen, and said to ship to North Carolina service (repair would be covered).
From what I gathered … change was made (component, firmeare?) to resolve issue.
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Regarding the ADS200 Plus , sounds like component changes and
possibly transformer/power change (120 Watts).
greg
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The original was already 120W, at least as far as the hardware is concerned. For some reason, the originals seem to never operate at 100% duty cycle. I am not aware of anyone having yet carried out a comparison with the plus version.