Looking for PCB bench drill

[Davy]

Hi all,
Rather than revive a old thread, I'll start a new one.

I'm looking for a PCB bench drill, Proxon TBH220 seems to be ideal.... yet RS Components do a similar item but far dearer, here is the data sheet from Xenon http://www.xenox.com/pdf/68128_EN.pdf, hopefully we've seen the Proxon 220 so no need to post.

I've seen the video that Fran uses here  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/proxxon-bench-drill-tbm-220/.

No prizes for guessing, they are all similar hence my confusion.... so who makes what? 'Stand up the real bench drill'. It may well sound stupid but I'm now leaning towards the RS Xenon drill, simply because I have an account with them,  this is dearest of the lot.

I'd like to buy the real thing rather than a copy, they are all the same specs. but are they all the same build quality?  Whichever I decide I'll be getting the matching chuck rather than using collets.

Edit:
The Xenon that RS do give a 3 year warranty.

Dave

[BradC]

Whichever I decide I'll be getting the matching chuck rather than using collets.

If you are drilling PCBs, why would you do that? The chuck is never going to be as accurate as a collet, and when you are spinning carbide at high speed you want to be as accurate as you can get.

I have the TBM220. I struggle to drill 0.2mm holes with it and have broken a few bits. It really needs to be a lot faster and vibrate less. Not that it vibrates a lot, but a 0.2mm bit is pretty sensitive. Over 0.2mm I've never had an issue. It is a superb machine to use.

[Davy]

A chuck would allow me to use bigger drills, the minimum hole size used would be 0.6mm, I normally use 0.8 mm most of the time, not forgetting larger ones.  I was thinking a chuck would save time fiddling with collets.... I do see your point about accuracy.

Just had a look at Xenon website and they do dentist drills  max speed of 50,000 RPM, I noted Proxon uses TBH in the model while Xenon uses TBX....  better quality perhaps?

Dave

[mzzj]

A chuck would allow me to use bigger drills, the minimum hole size used would be 0.6mm, I normally use 0.8 mm most of the time, not forgetting larger ones.  I was thinking a chuck would save time fiddling with collets.... I do see your point about accuracy.

Just had a look at Xenon website and they do dentist drills  max speed of 50,000 RPM, I noted Proxon uses TBH in the model while Xenon uses TBX....  better quality perhaps?

Dave

Carbide PCB drills come with standard sized shank so one collet fits them all from 0,2mm to 5mm
Shank is either 1/8" or 3mm diameter, 1/8" collet suits both of them.

[BradC]

I use 0.8, 1 & 1.2 almost exclusively. The 0.2 is for vias under SMD chips on home made boards (so no plate through) and I use 0.18mm wire. I lace it through all the vias in one strand, solder them down and then trim to the annular ring with a razor blade. Makes for very flat vias. They are a bugger to drill though.

And, what mzzj said. I've only changed collets once and that was to use a router bit (the tbm220 isn't built for lateral loads on the quill, but if used gently in soft material it seems to cope).

My neighbor borrowed mine and loved it so much he bought one. He has the chuck too, but he uses it for removing broken head studs in mining equipment with all sorts of differently sized tools.

It is important to remember to pop the belt off if you're not going to use it for a while. It does develop a "set" and can run a bit rough until it flexes back in.

[Davy]

With all due respects, I was asking about the actual drilling machines.

To get back on track, Fran uses a looking similar machine, I come across a Xenon machine at RS and they look like a Proxon barring colour and cosmetic, the Xenon is far dearer and Xenon makes dentistry drills capable of 50,000 RPM.... would this suggest a better quality machine and has anyone heard of them?

Dave

[Fred27]

I can also recommend the Proxxon. At the other end of the scale it seems quite capable of drilling 6mm holes in mild steel.

[CopperCone]

I have a proxxon and its decent but like you said with the tiniest drill bits you need to be real careful or they break. I noticed a big thing is to slowly insert and remove the drill, dont like let the arm swing out when you are removing it, there seems to be some kind of significant time constant, maybe the friction is increased because there is glass material on the drill bit, so you have to remove slower then inserting. I think as you drill through it stress lines in the materials change and it puts stress on the drill.. if its spinning ultra fast then you get a kinda lap occurring during the drill process so the material is detached and the hole surface is improved... so you need to account for it by moving the thing really slow. I think the smaller the hole the more the plasticity of the material begins to effect it. but this is just out of my ass conjecture I made up after destroying like 10 drillbits...

Also you need to make sure the object is really flat that you are drilling, with tiny drill bits and objects that are kinda lopsided I recommend putting a folded paper towel under the object to dampen its vibration.

[jpanhalt]

IMHO, Servo is the best (http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/drill_presses.html ).   Maybe out of your budget, but a used one may not be.

Again, Proxxon (made in China), MicroMark, and Dremel will not hold the run-out to a reasonable value.  I actually use a much larger, but tighter spec. drill press made in Japan (circa 1975) retrofitted with a VFD and 3-phase motor.  Small carbide drills will not take much misalignment.  They also need an appropriate cutting speed.  While Proxxon the others that are similar provide the speed, they may fail in run-out. 

When you break a carbide bit part way through a hole on a 1/16" PCB, and can't see where to punch it out, you will wish you had paid more.

[rdl]

I have the Proxxon and it's fine for what I do. Amazon UK sells both the Proxxon and the Xenox. The Xenox is considerably cheaper, maybe they are the OEM and it's actually the same identical machine. Maybe it's a low quality knockoff. Hard to say either way.

[janoc]

I am using the Proxxon Micromot 230/E in the MB 140/S stand. It is not as sturdy as the TBM 220 but plenty good for 0.8mm bits and it has the added advantage that you can use it as a regular handheld rotary tool (aka "Dremel") too.

[janoc]

IMHO, Servo is the best (http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/drill_presses.html ).   Maybe out of your budget, but a used one may not be.

Again, Proxxon (made in China), ...

Proxxon is German made, at least their electric tools. The hand tools are apparently from Taiwan (where Proxxon has HQ). As far as runout is concerned, the Proxxon gear is plenty good for drilling boards.

I wouldn't compare it to Dremel, there are videos on Youtube showing almost an order of magnitude difference. The spindle has large runout and their wobbly plasticky drill stands are utter garbage.

BTW, Xenox is a "pro" (mostly dentist oriented) line of Proxxon.

http://www.xenox.com/html/imprint.php?lang=1

[jpanhalt]

IMHO, Servo is the best (http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/drill_presses.html ).   Maybe out of your budget, but a used one may not be.

Again, Proxxon (made in China), ...

Proxxon is German made, at least their electric tools. The hand tools are apparently from Taiwan (where Proxxon has HQ). As far as runout is concerned, the Proxxon gear is plenty good for drilling boards.

I wouldn't compare it to Dremel, there are videos on Youtube showing almost an order of magnitude difference. The spindle has large runout and their wobbly plasticky drill stands are utter garbage.

My Proxxon cutoff saw is made in China.  Does being made in Germany (more accurately claimed to be made in Germany) make the specifications any better?  About 10 years ago, I returned a Proxxon drill press as junk.  Lots of nice chrome, but really poor run-out.  The Proxxon distributor in the US at that time was in North Carolina.   Maybe Proxxon has addressed those problems, but run-out is still the question.  What is the current run-out spec for the Proxxon bench model?  Have you tested it?

[boffin]

I have this small drill press from a US based jewellery supply place.
https://www.riogrande.com/product/variable-speed-mini-drill-press/330012

It's not great, and the belts are crap (buy some spares), but it was really inexpensive, and it works fine down to about 0.6mm.  Anything smaller and it just doesn't spin fast enough. 

I know you're in Europe, but it looks like you can get a 230V version on AliExpress
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/340W-Mini-DIY-Drill-Press-Bench-220V-Rotary-Tools-16000rpm-High-Speed-22mm-Stroke-Clamping-0/32835208410.html

Like I said, I wouldn't put my faith in it for 8hr/day work, but it's more than fine for hobby work

[Davy]

@janoc
I nearly got a Dremal stand but had read bad reports, Servo products look interesting I'll have a good look, thanks for link, our voltage here is  240 AC at 50Hz.

I've had bad experience with Ali Express, bought some meters and some of the numbers was on their sides almost some markings pale and some over done..... straight into the bin they went, they were quite comical to look at.... I should have known better.

I Emailed them in Germany and then found a place in UK, here is the link of the drill https://www.shesto.co.uk/craft-model-and-hobby/hand-tools/drill-drill-holders/xenox-xe68128v-tbx-bench-drill-machine/  A lot cheaper than RS, no idea what the warranty is but RS offers a 3 year one.

Thanks for your input, Dave

[tautech]

I nearly got a Dremal stand but had read bad reports.............

For the little bit of PCB drilling I do a Dremel stand is fine .......but I use Paxolin PCBs so therefore I can use HSS bits, chucked.
Never broken one drilling which is why I've stuck with HSS rather than get tungsten drills.
0.6mm is the smallest I've used.

[mzzj]

I have a proxxon and its decent but like you said with the tiniest drill bits you need to be real careful or they break. I noticed a big thing is to slowly insert and remove the drill, dont like let the arm swing out when you are removing it, there seems to be some kind of significant time constant, maybe the friction is increased because there is glass material on the drill bit, so you have to remove slower then inserting. I think as you drill through it stress lines in the materials change and it puts stress on the drill.. if its spinning ultra fast then you get a kinda lap occurring during the drill process so the material is detached and the hole surface is improved... so you need to account for it by moving the thing really slow. I think the smaller the hole the more the plasticity of the material begins to effect it. but this is just out of my ass conjecture I made up after destroying like 10 drillbits...

Also you need to make sure the object is really flat that you are drilling, with tiny drill bits and objects that are kinda lopsided I recommend putting a folded paper towel under the object to dampen its vibration.

More likely loose play somewhere in the spindle/quill mechanism if you need to insert/retract slowly/carefully. Carbide drills don't like sloppy mechanism's
At uni we had "real" manual pcb drill and it was popping holes with amazing speed. I can't remember if the quill was pneumatically or electromechanically operated but it went up and down in a quick bang-bang-bang with every pedal press.
(Pedal also operated "crown feet" that pressed down the pcb before the drillbit made contact so the pcb was clamped and woulnd't move)

Dremel with the collets works fine if you build your own stand, couple of pieces 2x4's  and a heavy duty ball bearing drawer slide works...

[CopperCone]

by small I mean like a 0.2mm drill or something, maybe 0.1mm.

IMO its a bargin for 200$. I can't see you getting better performance for the price on such small drill bits.

[jpanhalt]

by small I mean like a 0.2mm drill or something, maybe 0.1mm.

IMO its a bargin for 200$. I can't see you getting better performance for the price on such small drill bits.

0.004"?   That pretty small, particularly in carbide.

[KL27x]

I've never heard of Xenon. I have seen the same drill in another brand, too, besides Proxxon, though I can't recall the name.

This probably just infuriates OP, being so unrelated, but it does speak a little to Proxxon tools:

1.  I have no problem using the 12V Proxxon rotary tool in the Proxxon stand, down to 0.5mm carbide, and that's using a chuck. I haven't purchased anything smaller. I don't feel any vibrations from user standpoint. The only time I have broken a bit while drilling a hole is when the set screw on the stand wasn't battened down properly.

2. Collet vs chuck: I use the chuck in the Proxxon for PCB drilling. I use the same tool with 3mm and 1/8" bits for other things. And I don't change it for PCB drilling. I used the collet in the Proxxon I used to use for routing/machining, to reduce the length of the bit/sideload. But that's about the only reason in this case. I have 3 Proxxon tools (and 4 proxxon tool chucks; RIP original Proxxon). I have used them all for milling and drilling with no detectable loss of anything over the collet. So.. Proxxon makes good chucks, perhaps?

That said, nope. You wouldn't need a chuck for carbide drill bits of different sizes. Unless maybe you had a mix of 3mm and 1/8" shanks.
 

+1 on 0.2mm being super tiny. A bare 30AWG wire is larger than that and wouldn't fit through that hole. What it for, Copper? I was wondering if he made a typo, or something. My smallest steel bit is #80, and that is 0.35mm.  I used it once, and the 30AWG wire went through with room to spare... but too hard get it started in the hole!

Uh, wait. I already know the answer. Making holes in PEX tubing for an etch tank bubbler? 

[CopperCone]

I measured the type of drill bit that was giving me problems on a micrometer, it is 0.2 mm

everything above like 0.35mm is fine on the proxxon press, you need to be real careful with the 0.2mm

they are the kind of drill bits with the standard size that tapers down to whatever dimension and come in those little plastic kits that pop open.

[CopperCone]

I've never heard of Xenon. I have seen the same drill in another brand, too, besides Proxxon, though I can't recall the name.

This probably just infuriates OP, being so unrelated, but it does speak a little to Proxxon tools:

1.  I have no problem using the 12V Proxxon rotary tool in the Proxxon stand, down to 0.5mm carbide, and that's using a chuck. I haven't purchased anything smaller. I don't feel any vibrations from user standpoint. The only time I have broken a bit while drilling a hole is when the set screw on the stand wasn't battened down properly.

2. Collet vs chuck: I use the chuck in the Proxxon for PCB drilling. I use the same tool with 3mm and 1/8" bits for other things. And I don't change it for PCB drilling. I used the collet in the Proxxon I used to use for routing/machining, to reduce the length of the bit/sideload. But that's about the only reason in this case. I have 3 Proxxon tools (and 4 proxxon tool chucks; RIP original Proxxon). I have used them all for milling and drilling with no detectable loss of anything over the collet. So.. Proxxon makes good chucks, perhaps?

That said, nope. You wouldn't need a chuck for carbide drill bits of different sizes. Unless maybe you had a mix of 3mm and 1/8" shanks.
 

+1 on 0.2mm being super tiny. A bare 30AWG wire is larger than that and wouldn't fit through that hole. What it for, Copper? I was wondering if he made a typo, or something. My smallest steel bit is #80, and that is 0.35mm.  I used it once, and the 30AWG wire went through with room to spare... but too hard get it started in the hole!

Uh, wait. I already know the answer. Making holes in PEX tubing for an etch tank bubbler? 

I did use it in the bubbler but the holes self seal.

I never used it much, I thought it might be useful to own because I had some ideas for ultra compact PCB in a weird case that would require wires to go through the PCB and have very high density, almost like dead bugging a bunch of SMD parts in the smallest form factor, for things like amplifiers attached to narrow probes. I think I got them in a set. Like a micro twisted pair that is designed to minimize the length and shield gap. I like to build things deemed 'pain in the ass' like ships in bottles and stuff

you can get real fine wire on some signal transformers from digital communication systems, like 36 or less AWG.. I don't know where my little spool I collected went but I think it was like 40AWG from a LAN card or some shit.

[KL27x]

https://www.banggood.com/02mm-To-05mm-Drill-Bits-Tool-Kit-For-3D-Printer-Nozzle-Cleaning-p-924893.html?gmcCountry=US&currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_elc&utm_content=frank&utm_campaign=pla-mix-us-pc-0626&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvaGembTP3AIVE8NkCh35Nw0fEAQYAiABEgLy5_D_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN

They're so small, Banggood makes an oddly specific and niche suggestion for use. 

[CopperCone]

https://www.banggood.com/02mm-To-05mm-Drill-Bits-Tool-Kit-For-3D-Printer-Nozzle-Cleaning-p-924893.html?gmcCountry=US&currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_elc&utm_content=frank&utm_campaign=pla-mix-us-pc-0626&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvaGembTP3AIVE8NkCh35Nw0fEAQYAiABEgLy5_D_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN

They're so small, Banggood makes an oddly specific and niche suggestion for use. 

I know deisel engines have remarkably small holes in whatever their carburetor equivalent is. Drilled in hard metal no less.

[KL27x]

Coincidentally, I broke my smallest carbide bit drilling aquarium tubing for a bubble tank. Like 7-8 years ago, or something. I don't know what PEX is, but like you I found these (much bigger than 0.2mm) holes were still too small and didn't let through any air. You ought to try a bubble wall wand, Copper. DIY machining can't bring you to the level of this synthetic material.