Eneuro to sell flywheel toroid battery

[eneuro]

What's the purpose of your flywheel?

Changed topic-it better reflects its usage.
Need to do more testing, just setup bigger facility hundreds of meters from nearest houses with wind turbine and a few PV panels with sun tracking to test its offgrid capabilities 
Smaller flywheel toroid battery will be shown during my tour around Europe installed in my HPEV 

[BlueBill]

I'd rather know more about your HPEV. Post a photo.

[CatalinaWOW]

It is hard to believe in someone who believes in 10 ton Ferraris.

[eneuro]

I'd rather know more about your HPEV.

You'll see on TV -watch TopGear, CNN, BBC, Discovery.
Nothing can be revealed before final showdown 

[BlueBill]

Yea, okay. 

No Patent number, no photos, no clue. Good luck with your spinning disk of doom.

[PeterFW]

spinning disk of doom.

The biggest spinning disc of doom... IIIN THE WOOORLD!

[BlueBill]

spinning disk of doom.

The biggest spinning disc of doom... IIIN THE WOOORLD!

That's hilarious.

[Corporate666]

Just a side note since this whole thread is lunacy, but a granted patent itself has no value, unless...

1) It was written by an expert in the field and passed critical review by other experts

and/or (mostly and)

2) It has been tested in court.  Successfully. 

[eneuro]

a granted patent itself has no value, unless...

unless you leave in country where law is respected 
Try to go to  post Soviet Russia to the court to fight for your claims-you will be shot dead just after crossing their borders if such thing will be worth significant amount of money.
Patents are bad, because of you have to reveal details of your invention, everybody around the world now can access them for free, inventor pay fees for his work, but if someone violates  patent, this is not tracked and taken to the court by government office, but you have to invest your time and money to fight for your rights, so sometimes it is better forget about stupid patents...and give it for free, but be a few years ahead and make money before competition figure out how it works 

[CatalinaWOW]

Even in "law abiding countries" patents have value only in some contexts.  You must have the resources to defend your patent.  There are no patent sheriffs waiting to jail offenders.  Only the opportunity to take offenders to court.  This is a useful option for large corporations.  For individuals and small corporations it seems to me the only way to get value out of a patent is to sell it to one of the big guys.  There are also financial barriers to obtaining patents. 

I have always been struck by the difference between patents and copyrights.  A patent requires substantial time, effort and money to obtain.  At least in the US it requires still more fees to maintain, and can only be sustained for 17 years.  A copyright only requires a written statement of intent to copyright, and lasts for a variable period that is many decades long, and at least in principal could last for well over a century.

Clearly establishes the relative value of geeks and artists.

[Corporate666]

a granted patent itself has no value, unless...

unless you leave in country where law is respected 
Try to go to  post Soviet Russia to the court to fight for your claims-you will be shot dead just after crossing their borders if such thing will be worth significant amount of money.
Patents are bad, because of you have to reveal details of your invention, everybody around the world now can access them for free, inventor pay fees for his work, but if someone violates  patent, this is not tracked and taken to the court by government office, but you have to invest your time and money to fight for your rights, so sometimes it is better forget about stupid patents...and give it for free, but be a few years ahead and make money before competition figure out how it works 

The details of your invention will be revealed the moment the first one is produced and shipped anyway.  It's a fool's game to try to keep such things secret.

Patents are very good things.  But, at least in the USA, the PTO will grant a patent on anything not covered in the prior art.  And the only "prior art" they use is the existing body of patents.  They don't consider anything outside of that - because they aren't qualified to do to (unless a claim is brought by a 3rd party that prior art exists and the claim documents that prior art).

What that means is that if there is no existing patent for something that is unpatentable because it's already in the public domain, then someone can go ahead and get a patent on it.  The patent is invalid because prior art exists, but the patent won't be invalidated until it's tested in court.

A granted patent is just an opinion from the examiner that the claims don't exist in any other patent previously granted.  Only when the patent is tested in court does it get thoroughly vetted and validated in comparison to prior art. 

Something like 65%+ of all patents are invalidated in court when tested.


So someone buying a patent has to be very sure they are buying something valuable.  A granted patent in itself is not valuable.

[zapta]

A granted patent is just an opinion from the examiner that the claims don't exist in any other patent previously granted.  Only when the patent is tested in court does it get thoroughly vetted and validated in comparison to prior art.

I have a (non lawyer) friend that lives off patents. According to him a patents that worth anything end up in litigation. Otherwise they are worthless, either they can be worked around or the technology doesn't generate much revenue. By this criteria, most patents are worthless and the only winner is the patent office.

[Corporate666]

A granted patent is just an opinion from the examiner that the claims don't exist in any other patent previously granted.  Only when the patent is tested in court does it get thoroughly vetted and validated in comparison to prior art.

I have a (non lawyer) friend that lives off patents. According to him a patents that worth anything end up in litigation. Otherwise they are worthless, either they can be worked around or the technology doesn't generate much revenue. By this criteria, most patents are worthless and the only winner is the patent office.

I agree with your friend.

As I said, the USPTO will grant a patent on anything that isn't already patented.  They don't check the public domain, so even if something has been done for years, they will still grant a patent on it if one doesn't exist.  Case in point - someone has a patent on using PWM to dim LED's.  Someone else has a patent on using LED's on a flexible PCB.  Someone else has a patent on using LED's as turn signals.  Those patents sound valuable, but they were granted just because nobody else had patented those things previously, and if the guy with the patent on using LED's on a flex PCB got into a court battle with a car manufacturer who is using flex PCB in their LED tail lights, he is going to lose and lose big. 

In short - if a patent is worth anything, then there will likely be a fight over it, and only once the fight is over does the patent have the legitimacy that makes it valuable. 

The only other realm that patents are valuable in is on a small scale where someone has an idea and they get a patent and just want to ward off other small time guys.  Like Dave with the uCurrent... if he got a patent on it he could stop knock-off artists.  Most of them would cave in rather than risk a patent fight, but if they didn't cave in, Dave could petition the import authorities to seize shipments of infringing parts.

The guy in this thread is smoking something or trolling, I think... but if he is serious, then his patent is worthless unless it gets tested in court. 

[eneuro]

The details of your invention will be revealed the moment the first one is produced and shipped anyway.  It's a fool's game to try to keep such things secret.

It depends who will buy such thing
Selling patent even at good price for someone from industry who will try only block its introduction to keep production levels and research of his curent monopoled product safe is not an option 
This is a reason, why probably better reveal details of such things at official events organized by intelectual property agencies and while they are officially published on during those events, have at least a chance to be considered such things later as prior art if someone from competition industry tried to patent the same thing and claim he invented it.
So, it might have sense keep it secret until final showdown, sell a few such products at this time and it doesn't have to be patent attorney who knows your idea first, but much wider audience, on official meetting, competitors competition, etc.
Didn't showed any detailed specs, so far, but after final showdown this forum will know first, while many people there helped me a lot there to develop a few subsystems needed to change  this idea into real thing and make much more efficient energy conversions 

[AndersAnd]

The guy in this thread is smoking something or trolling, I think...

Yeah obviously he's just trolling as he still won't post the patent number, so there isn't any patent in the first place.

[eneuro]

he still won't post the patent number

Patent pending (with number) is very often placed on company products to attract customers and let them think they buy something new, while in practice those patents are at quality  "reinventing the wheel" 
I changed my mind and don't want sell any patent, but ... real device, so in spare time setup small facility to be able test bigger batteries far away from human homes in offgrid place for safety reasons as well as to see if it work without any electricity available-only a few solar panels and vertical wind turbine, because of some people for do not like noisy open space factory offices, but quiet work places, so it will be also perfect place to work on another products 

[Halfdead]

This is a joke right?

[Galenbo]

Flywheel use in No Break without battery:

http://www.euro-diesel.com/english/operation-description/94/2

Active flywheel, known since the Sixties. Holec-Hitec is another brand.

For the guys naively stating it's "better" than batteries, bearings have their maximum lifespan too. Every 5 years the thing has to be taken apart, transport, revision, positioning, aligning, costing the price of a beautiful house. Fixed costs are also heavy on these machines.

[SeanB]

I know, I have a vibratory sieve at work that is around 20 years old, still using the original bearings. 10 years ago I just repacked them with molyslip grease, and it is keeping them cool and quiet. New bearings will be at the $500 mark, each, excluding taking a half ton motor to a machinist with a 10 ton press. So keeping the old ones running for as long as possible will be good. Luckily they only do 1440RPM, not the normal 20kRPM plus of a decent flywheel store.

I saw one where they ran it at synchronous speed of 1800RPM by making the motor the flywheel, and simply making it a 5 ton moving mass. They used massive double ball races to just handle the axial forces, the radial being done by roller bearings running in an oil bath each side.  Generator side used a 3 phase excitation system that ran a rotating field around the rotor at double the slip rate when it was being used to deliver backup power, so that it delivered a constant frequency output even as it slowed. That used 5 slip rings and big brushes to handle the low frequency AC excitation to the rotor and the synchronous motor side.

Big, really heavy but it would provide power for the few seconds from mains fail to the time a big dry clutch would engage to start the even bigger diesel engine it was using as secondary power source. The engine was guaranteed to start, seeing as it had such a massive starter motor turning it. Oil pressure for all was provided by an electric gear pump, so the engine always had lube on all bearings. Otherwise that shock start would tear the crankshaft apart.

Electronics in it was almost nil, it used all contactors, magamps and RC delays. It was a pretty good room heater as well. And just for redundancy there were 5 more in the same bunker as well. Fuel for it could be best described as "adequate" in the old Rolls Royce fashion.

[eneuro]

I saw one where they ran it at synchronous speed of 1800RPM by making the motor the flywheel, and simply making it a 5 ton moving mass. They used massive double ball races to just handle the axial forces, the radial being done by roller bearings running in an oil bath each side. 

Fortunatelly, nowadays small batery can lift 22kg/50lbs easy