CNC newbie seeking advice for 8060 China VS LEAD CNC

[sn4k3]

I'm new to this world but experient with 3D Printers. I seek advice for a good and robust machine that able to carve aluminium, big step not required, it can go slow and small depth step.
At first i was looking at the new LEAD CNC from openbuilds, but it have many drawbacks at my eyes:

• It use 8mm leadscrew for 1000x1000mm which is a weak point
• Don't like vwheels, i even convert my 3d printer to linear rails, not to mention that heavy spindles on Z will not hold very well
• Frame not very rigid, have some deflection working over big areas

Reinforce LEAD would cost it price again so, with that in mind i start to find other alternatives on near price point, that i came with 8060 chinese CNC's (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/4Axis-2200W-8060Z-USB-Mach3-2-2kw-CNC-Router-Engraver-engraving-Drilling-and-milling-Mahcine-110/512815_32817911749.html). They look better to me in terms of rigidity and choise of hardware:

• Proper leadscrew diameter
• Smooth rods instead of wheels with good diameter
• Better Z
• Stronger frame
• Electronics seens well choosen, they even use high power drivers for each motor, instead of LEAD that sell underpowered controler board with only 1.7A drivers with 2.7A motors... (Blackbox fix that with 4A max.)

Now i want a good spindle and i come with this one: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/EU-ship-Quality-2-2KW-Waterproof-Water-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER20-220V-4-bearings-Carved-Metal/512815_32881434813.html
2.2KW and ER20 the only drawback is the weight, assuming that seller put the correct value info: Net Weight: 6.1kg.
But i'm not sure that i really need a 2.2KW spindle... Maybe 1.5kw will carve aluminium?

My ideia so far is:

• Get 8060 machine
• Discard controller box and spindle, i already contact seller and that's about 500€ deduction in price.
• Buy the spindle i link before with VDF and water stuff.
• Buy the new Blackbox from openbuilds to use with grbl and their software.
• Buy a power supply

And now my question are:
(Renember i don't know about CNC world, yet i hope)

• Is that a good setup to go? 
• Will 8060 frame survive that spindle?
• What about the deflection on axis?
• Can i get a better config?
• What are the recommendations?
• Have other better machine advices under +/-2500€ price range, 3000€ max?

Also i like to know if i get any advantage going with this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Jade-Machine-CNC-6090-2-2KW-4Axis-Router-Mach3-USB-CNC-6090-Steel-Frame-Engraving-Machine/32950734919.html
Right now i'm contacting seller asking for more information, and i'm inclined for it...
The good thing about that machines is they ofer door delivery with no tax, EU send.

Regards

[sn4k3]

There's also this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Precision-Cnc-9012-Jade-Stone-Cutting-Machine/32954423732.html
But seens very good to be true... New seller, no feedback. Still they anwser accurate and with correct information but we never know!

[beanflying]

If you want to 'carve' (I am assuming you mean mill) metal buy a mill. If you only occasionally want to cut out metal sheets or engrave metal panels then a router is fine.

That is not to say your can't mill aluminium on a router but it is not what they are really designed or best at. There best use is timber, plastics and modelling boards. By their nature the heads deflect to much to maintain close tolerances such as you can obtain with a purpose built mill.

3D printer loads are nothing like what you can expect with CNC subtractive machining no matter how slow you go. 8mm lead screws is never going to go near the job at any bed size for metal. The screws on my 1000x600 are 20mm.

I would suggest you take a look at Parts 1,2 & 3 of This Old Tony's videos to get an idea of what is needed to get a good result with metal.

[sn4k3]

If you want to 'carve' (I am assuming you mean mill) metal buy a mill. If you only occasionally want to cut out metal sheets or engrave metal panels then a router is fine.

That is not to say your can't mill aluminium on a router but it is not what they are really designed or best at. There best use is timber, plastics and modelling boards. By their nature the heads deflect to much to maintain close tolerances such as you can obtain with a purpose built mill.

Yes i mean mill.
The main purpose will be wood, and ocasional some aluminium, like plates, nothing serious.

3D printer loads are nothing like what you can expect with CNC subtractive machining no matter how slow you go. 8mm lead screws is never going to go near the job at any bed size for metal. The screws on my 1000x600 are 20mm.

I know 3D printer are a diferent world.
I also agree that 8mm makes no sense with CNC no matter if router or not.

I would suggest you take a look at Parts 1,2 & 3 of This Old Tony's videos to get an idea of what is needed to get a good result with metal.

Thank you, will do, i have all night so i will see the parts you recommended.
In meanwhile what you think about that Steel CNC deal? They also can upgrade with linear rails, but that add 350$ to the cost. Does it worth?


Does it only add more accuracy or also ridigty to the machine as whole?

[beanflying]

There is a lot more to it than Linear over Round rails. Not all Linear bearings are created equal for a start and if they are not setup correctly will easily be worse than other options. You need to start square, strong and flat and then shim, adjust and tweak to keep it that way to maintain accuracy. Currently mine is getting rewired due to some average work by it's former owner. Then it will be out with dial indicators, engineers squares and start from the table and work up mechanically.

The happy snap of the gantry on mine below gives you an idea of scale (2.2kW water cooled spindle). Under the bed the gantry is driven by another pair of Nema 24's into 20mm screws supported on 20mm Rails. One of the advantages of Linear bearings is they are generally lower profile compared to Round which helps cut down on leverage away from the actual axis the parts travel on. It is something I might consider on my Gantry down the track but for my intended purposes not a huge issue.

[sn4k3]

I'm almost done with videos, the result is impressive, such perfection! And what i see the most dificult part is get everything trammed.

There is a lot more to it than Linear over Round rails. Not all Linear bearings are created equal for a start and if they are not setup correctly will easily be worse than other options. You need to start square, strong and flat and then shim, adjust and tweak to keep it that way to maintain accuracy. Currently mine is getting rewired due to some average work by it's former owner. Then it will be out with dial indicators, engineers squares and start from the table and work up mechanically.

The happy snap of the gantry on mine below gives you an idea of scale (2.2kW water cooled spindle). Under the bed the gantry is driven by another pair of Nema 24's into 20mm screws supported on 20mm Rails. One of the advantages of Linear bearings is they are generally lower profile compared to Round which helps cut down on leverage away from the actual axis the parts travel on. It is something I might consider on my Gantry down the track but for my intended purposes not a huge issue.

So if i understand correctly, the 350$ upgrade can turn in a nightmare other than a benefit if set incorrectly? And i bet they are not meticulous as the Old Tony...

So far i got this information about the machine, comunicating with seller:

Our CNC6090 steel structure machine is a USB version that can be directly linked to your computer operation.

Our steel structure machine will not rust, please don't worry

We support linear guide and round guide rail, linear guide needs to add 350USD（Because the linear guide is more accurate）

our spindle is 2.2KW 220V EU plug.because linear rails Higher precision，Can reach 0.01-0.02mm,
Screw cost is more expensive，But if you don't needthe  precision, you can choose round guide，
Yes, this is VFD
After sending the machine, we will send you a VFD manual to you.
Our CNC6090 steel structure machine supports engraving of aluminum, copper and other metals, wood, stone, etc.  This is a good choice
Every axis we have a stepper motor
We send you a complete machine

Our machine Working area:    600(X)mm*900(Y)mm*120(Z)mm
We will send you the ER20 chuck.
Spindle motor Brand new 2200W water cooling spindle, 24000RPM

I just negotiated with our factory, we can send your machine, not including the spindle,
Reduce the price of 90USD
But I suggest you buy a machine that contains our spindle
Our spindle brand CHANGSHENG is a very good brand, the quality is also very guaranteed,
can process a lot of metal,
Is a very reliable spindle

yes ,The water pump is included
Packing list
1 water pump* 2
2 water pump fixed feet * 8
3 Water pump inlet * 2
4 clamp tool * 6
5 Power Cable * 1
6 USB connect cable * 1
7 Spanner * 2
8 water sink outlet pipe * 1
9 Engraving bits * 5
  4F*6*6*19*63mm White steel bit * 1
  4F*6*6*15*50mm Tungsten steel milling bit * 1
  3.175*20°*0.1 * 1
  3.175*20°*0.2 * 1
  3.175*20°*0.3 * 1

Our CNC6090 steel structure machines have stainless steel sinks，Guaranteed recycling of water-soluble cutting fluid，

In fact, the linear guide and round guide are installed in our factory when we are producing the machine.
The linear guide and round guide are the same, the linear guide can achieve an accuracy of 0.01-0.02mm, and the round guide can achieve an accuracy of 0.03-0.05mm.
If you only need to reach 0.05mm rods precision ，I think you can choose round guide

The diameter of the leadscrew is about 16MM（I just measured it,Hope it helps you）

Round guides X Axis30mm Y Axis 30mm Z 16mm,
The limit switchs is mechanical
X-axis Y-axis and Z-axis are equipped with the stepper motor

This is our CNC6090 information.
Higher precision:
Heavier steel structure
XHC control boad
With auto-checking function
2200w water-cooled spindle
Ball screw
Integrated high-speed micro computer intelligent control chip.
First STEEL STRUCTURE CNC6090 in the Market
Mach 3 software, supports Win10
Built in frequencey converter and without controller box
Applicable to steel, aluminum, brass, copper, stone, granite etc.

 You can buy this machine from us without any worry:
 
    CE approved.
    Video support.
    English manual available.
    Mach 3 software send with the machine as a CD.
    Can engrave material which hardness below 45.
    From reliable & trustable profesional China CNC Router manufacturer

total 3 stepper motors, 1 motor per X/Y/ZAxis

Our Mach3 is a cracked version, but don't worry, this is completely usable, is really compatible with this cnc ，without any problems, our cnc6090 supports mach3 software, does not support macn4 software.

Controller box:




Spindle (GDZ-20-2.2B):


Motors:


Specs

[beanflying]

Lots to be learned from watching plenty of Tony's other videos even if you are not that mechanically minded, the methodical approach to a problem to then create a solution with a good dose of humour makes good viewing. 

The $350 is something for your budget but if I was buying or building new I would be going most likely go non Chinese origin Linear at this time, give it another few years to sort out quality and Chinese would also be fine. In my case I brought secondhand with $4-500 worth of tools and collets for about $1200 USD all up locally so I considered myself to have plenty leftover for upgrades if needed later.

Couple of things you should check.

The photo above of the Z axis stepper appears to be smaller than the one shown on an earlier link? Perhaps ask them to clarify what steppers they are offering. I think your photo is of their smaller format one? https://www.chinacnczone.com/en/chinacnczone-cnc-3040-mini-cnc-jewelry-engraving-machine-with-2200w-water-cool-spindle-for-sale_l302_p210.html It looks a little small for a 2.2kW spindle?

Major thing to check they seem to be claiming Mach 3 compatibility with their controller card. Double check with them or it can add a chunk more to what you may need to spend to get good functionality later. I am not sure of how Mach3 and other Cards work regards to costs as mine doesn't run Mach3. If you can avoid needing to buy a new card at least initially and it works with Mach 3 then great. Mach 4 seems to be out too.

If you are buying a spindle from them with a chuck then get a range of collets while you are going as they will generally be cheaper than buying locally for you. For Tooling you will get what you pay for at this time and maybe go local and branded for that.

Another few Videos that are worthwhile is this one and some more recent ones on his channel. Far more rustic than Tony's but down to earth and it works.

[sn4k3]

Lots to be learned from watching plenty of Tony's other videos even if you are not that mechanically minded, the methodical approach to a problem to then create a solution with a good dose of humour makes good viewing. 

Thats true, his videos are easy to see, no headaches for long videos or a storm of information. Lots of fun there!

The $350 is something for your budget but if I was buying or building new I would be going most likely go non Chinese origin Linear at this time, give it another few years to sort out quality and Chinese would also be fine. In my case I brought secondhand with $4-500 worth of tools and collets for about $1200 USD all up locally so I considered myself to have plenty leftover for upgrades if needed later.

Got it, i will skip this as i can upgrade latter too, not a question of money, but more trouble free.
I brought linear rails from china for my 3d printer, and i notice them bad quality in terms of accuracy and smooth (3 different sellers, both bad). Easy to lose balls, so i buy ceramic balls to reball when need too.

Couple of things you should check.

The photo above of the Z axis stepper appears to be smaller than the one shown on an earlier link? Perhaps ask them to clarify what steppers they are offering. I think your photo is of their smaller format one? https://www.chinacnczone.com/en/chinacnczone-cnc-3040-mini-cnc-jewelry-engraving-machine-with-2200w-water-cool-spindle-for-sale_l302_p210.html It looks a little small for a 2.2kW spindle?

Yes, the first photo was to show spindle only, he maybe took from the first machine he near by.
The motor close up was also requested by me, i ask for the motor used on the machine (6090)
Anyway if motors not suitable i will sell them and but proper ones, the LDO-57STH86 was on my list.
I will be happier if structure and build is exceeding than get a wrong or bad stepper (things i can upgrade easy and cheap)

Major thing to check they seem to be claiming Mach 3 compatibility with their controller card. Double check with them or it can add a chunk more to what you may need to spend to get good functionality later. I am not sure of how Mach3 and other Cards work regards to costs as mine doesn't run Mach3. If you can avoid needing to buy a new card at least initially and it works with Mach 3 then great. Mach 4 seems to be out too.

It's really Mach3 but cracked, all this machines work same way, but i asked anyway:

Yes, our Mach3 is a cracked version, but don't worry, this is completely usable, is really compatible with this cnc ，without any problems, our cnc6090 supports mach3 software, does not support macn4 software.

I also use that to ask you, i never used Mach3 it seens old but capable. If i discard control box from seller and use Blackbox from openbuilds and GRBL is a good choise? I see their software is good and modern, and blackbox seens well built and lot of options, capable of drive every component from that CNC, inc. software spindle speed, and WC. Instead their controller, WC and tool fluid is AC connected, no monitoring or software controled.
https://openbuildspartstore.com/blackbox-motion-control-system/
https://docs.openbuilds.com/blackbox/#0welcome.html

One good thing for sure is know what i'm using and buy a good power supply too... But 24V limited!
Or maybe i can upgrade it latter too if i don't like it, and sell parts at ebay...

If you are buying a spindle from them with a chuck then get a range of collets while you are going as they will generally be cheaper than buying locally for you. For Tooling you will get what you pay for at this time and maybe go local and branded for that.

Another few Videos that are worthwhile is this one and some more recent ones on his channel. Far more rustic than Tony's but down to earth and it works.

I will not, will buy a better one for work metal a little better, the RTM-80-2.2: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/RU-ship-Quality-Waterproof-2-2KW-Water-Cooled-CNC-Spindle-Motor-Carved-Metal-4-BEARINGS-ER20/32902402580.html
A bit longer, but the head have full cover and less play.
The discount from removing spindle is 90USD, which is low compared to his acquisition cost.

5.30am here, tomorrow i will continue with videos, i'm learning good stuff here.
Belive or not i have ask same question on a CNC dedicated forum, 0 replies, topic is 1 day age.
And in this good forum more eletronic based i got a instant worth reply

Thank you