3D printers : your experiences and current State of the technology

[Mechatrommer]

Nobody doing commercial work is going to be printing out stuff on their MakerBot - they are going to use a real 3D printing service to get commercially viable prints.

tell me one product or brand company that mass produced their commercial products with 3D printing service? i suspect none.

[PlainName]

That's a hobby part right?  Exactly my point.

What's wrong with that? It would cost him a fortune to buy a commercial one (if anyone ever made one), but with this printer he can have it a couple of hours later for basic cost. That's a perfect example of useful output, and your classing it as a 'hobby part' is just showing your prejudice.

The ideal part to print is a) nothing to do with the printer, b) a one-off (or close) and c) something you can't already buy for a reasonable price. I reckon his example scores on all those grounds.

[zapta]

What's wrong with that? It would cost him a fortune to buy a commercial one (if anyone ever made one), but with this printer he can have it a couple of hours later for basic cost. That's a perfect example of useful output, and your classing it as a 'hobby part' is just showing your prejudice.

I wish I would have the same arrangement for pcbs. No more waiting week+ for a prototype.

(etching and plating myself doesn't count, I am talking an automatic process that produces useable prototype PCBs, with hole plating, some plating on the copper and a solder mask).

[PlainName]

I am talking an automatic process

That's the holy grail, but I doubt if we're going to get anywhere near since even the professionals aren't completely automated, are they?

[Mechatrommer]

this one looks like aint 2K machine (metal) but some magnitude more tedious than the sub 2K... both pre and post processing... whats that he's using, dremel grinder?

[BloodyCactus]

I have a lulzbot TAZ, it can print 11"x10"x9". they are talking about dual extruders but I dont think its available yet, just singe extruder.

your not going to get any hobby level 3d printer than can read solidworks native files, the slicer software only reads STL files.

3d printers are SLOW. how often do you need to make parts / in what quantity? its SLOW even when not using a lot of infill.. If you use lots of infill, going for solid inner parts, SUPER SLOW.

each time you change filament, need to recalibrate for best results.

3d printers are still in the land of lots of manual tinkering.

[free_electron]

it;s mainly for prototype work. print a one -of a kind , verify everything matches and then i will have these things made by injection molding.

[kaz911]

it;s mainly for prototype work. print a one -of a kind , verify everything matches and then i will have these things made by injection molding.

You can to some degree use the 3D prints for injection moulding designs - but injection moulding requires different setup's most of the time - so you will end up getting disappointed with 3D prints -> Injection Moulding. That process is NOT straight forward...

Anyway - my recommendation - Either Zortrax M200 or Up Mini are the two best " plug and play (sometimes pray) 3D printers. Beats the crap out of Makerbot machines which have turned into a pile of junk printer for the most part. Cubify printers are terrible as well. For PLA Ultimaker V2 is also great. The Zortrax is primarily ABS prints but have different types of material dependent on what you want to print.

I have the Zortrax M200 - and it works really great for most of the time. I am happy to leave it printing overnight without supervision. And support material is done from same as print material but is relatively easy to remove. You do sometimes have to compensate slightly for drill holes - but overall dimensions of object are reasonably on the mark.

I also have a home built/assembled Ultimaker V1 - but that is only for PLA material. But PLA is not very heat resistant and will start changing shape at about 50 deg c. So exposed to direct sunlight and 35+ deg c - you can see warping. Especially if your electronics generate heat as well.

[kaz911]

and on the subject of 3D printers...

http://www.voxel8.co/

3D printer with "conductive " ink AND components embedded inside the 3D print. Software support by Autodesk.

ONLY $9000 ish.... for a PLA printer....

[vargoal]

My FRC robotics team uses a Maker Replicator 2. Just some advice, We use slicer and replicator G to operate the printer instead of the Makerware software because we find we have better control over settings and configurations that way. Still with that said if your looking for turnkey then MakerBot or 3D systems are the two companies you want to look at. I haven't used a 3D systems printer but they recently added a few in the consumer price range and their goal was to make one for the non-maker community like average consumers. If anyone has experience with one of the cheaper 3D systems printers please post feedback below.

[zapta]

The dual extruder Dreamer has very good reviews and it looks 'appliancy'.

http://amzn.com/B00JRBQJ6W

Currently I am using an OSH Reprap i3v kit. For my next printer I will also look also for

1) Closed chamber (for ABS).
2) Auto bed leveling (at at least a stable frame that doesn't require frequent leveling)
3) Dual extruder for dissolvable material support (I am not happy with same material support). Anybody has experience with dissolvable support? Is it as good as it sounds?

That dual Dreamer looks pretty close and that 230 x 150 x 140 may be sufficient (currently I have 200 x 200 x 200.

One general advise, for your new printer use the best filament material you can find (e.g. Makerbot PLA). I wasted time with with cheap filament that didn't extrude well.

[DJ]

I've been looking at some models and hoping CES would have some surprises. Couple of new models here and there, and a $1500 SLA, but still learning to the MakerGear M2

http://www.makergear.com/products/m-series-3d-printers

I like the construction, local support and open/upgradeability. Got top marks at Amazon,  but will buy direct to get the kit version.

Do want ABS/PLA and ideally Ultem filament capability (if not now, able to add easily). $1500 for the kit, $300 more built. Will do my own large cabinet for draft control.

Will give SLA another year or 2 to mature (Form is also doing an inexpensive model)

[free_electron]

The dual extruder Dreamer has very good reviews and it looks 'appliancy'.

http://amzn.com/B00JRBQJ6W

Currently I am using an OSH Reprap i3v kit. For my next printer I will also look also for

1) Closed chamber (for ABS).
2) Auto bed leveling (at at least a stable frame that doesn't require frequent leveling)
3) Dual extruder for dissolvable material support (I am not happy with same material support). Anybody has experience with dissolvable support? Is it as good as it sounds?

That dual Dreamer looks pretty close and that 230 x 150 x 140 may be sufficient (currently I have 200 x 200 x 200.

One general advise, for your new printer use the best filament material you can find (e.g. Makerbot PLA). I wasted time with with cheap filament that didn't extrude well.

That machine, in its single head variant, is the one sold by Dremel for 999 .
I am very interested in that one. Metal build, enclosure . It is relatively new and id like to see some more reviews.

The makergear m3 would be another candidate because it uses machined parts.

I do not want any machine which uses plywood or plastic anywhere in its drive or extruder assembly.
Plywood warps , aborbs humidity, and plastic doesnt have the precision or repeatability. I want a nice, sturdy machine that gives good quality prints with alittle fuss as possible.

[senso]

There is a Portuguese contender, and they have won a couple prizes recently:
https://beeverycreative.com/

Its all metal, hiwin linear rails and guides, lots of metal inside them, but you are sort of limited to their PLA so they can provide you the put a new color press start, no temperature calibrations non-sense, but its a bit pricy, over 3000$.

[Corporate666]

Nobody doing commercial work is going to be printing out stuff on their MakerBot - they are going to use a real 3D printing service to get commercially viable prints.

tell me one product or brand company that mass produced their commercial products with 3D printing service? i suspect none.

The only commercial use you can think of for a 3D printer is mass production of parts?  I doubt anyone uses them for that, save for specialized medical implants in SLS machines I'm aware of.

But other than hobby work or work where quality doesn't really matter (hobby work), nobody is going to be using $500 3D printers for serious commercial work.  When a part needs prototyped and checked for accuracy/manufacturability, or you want something you can show in a meeting or other serious commercial needs, you're going to need reasonable quality and specified tolerances - neither of which you're going to get on a hobby level machine, not without a lot of fiddling and time wasting anyway.

[Corporate666]

That's a hobby part right?  Exactly my point.

What's wrong with that? It would cost him a fortune to buy a commercial one (if anyone ever made one), but with this printer he can have it a couple of hours later for basic cost. That's a perfect example of useful output, and your classing it as a 'hobby part' is just showing your prejudice.

The ideal part to print is a) nothing to do with the printer, b) a one-off (or close) and c) something you can't already buy for a reasonable price. I reckon his example scores on all those grounds.

To the part in bold - yes!  Exactly my point.  A hobbyist who needs a part for something other than commercial use is well served by such a printer.  What are you disagreeing with me about?  You are making my point for me.

And what do you think a hobby part is, if not this sort of thing?  I'm not sure what you seem to take offense to - I don't consider hobby use to be worthless and commercial use to be the only important thing.  But the part shown illustrates my point exactly.  If one were going to mass produce these handpieces prior to injection molding, the prototypes wouldn't be printed on a hobby machine.  It would be done on a commercial level.

It has nothing to do with the ideal part and everything to do with the reason for printing.  Hobby level use, a hobby level machine is fine.  Don't think that Agilent (err, I mean Keysight) is going to be prototyping the next 'scope faceplate on a Makerbot.  Ain't gonna happen.

[zapta]

If one were going to mass produce these handpieces prior to injection molding, the prototypes wouldn't be printed on a hobby machine.  It would be done on a commercial level.

There are so many professional use cases for 3D printers other than final prototype for injection mounding. For example cases and jigs for internal use, strawmen and proof of concepts, ergonomic surveys and many more.

Jeff Hawkins for example would find it very useful for his early Palm mockups:

http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/mobile-computing/18/321/1648

[zapta]

That machine, in its single head variant, is the one sold by Dremel for 999 .
I am very interested in that one. Metal build, enclosure . It is relatively new and id like to see some more reviews.

Between the two Dreamers I would probably take the dual extruder over the dremel. $300 extra sounds reasonable for a second extruder and hot bed (which is also good for PLA, nut just ABS).  I also started with a just-get-something-working approach but the appetite came with the eating (apetite for ABS and dissolvable support material).

One of the answers on Amazon says this. You may find more information on reddit.

"The Dremel-labeled printer, which is indeed manufatured by Flashforge, does not have a heated platform and can only print PLA. The Flashforge Dreamer can print PLA and ABS. The Dremel marketing team did a Reddit AMA in Sep 2014 where they used a bunch of marketing-speak to explain the differences between their printer and the Flashforge Dreamer. Do a web search for "AMA with Dremel 3D Idea Builder Team" to find it."

BTW, wood frames are not that bad. We have at work an old Makebot 2 with wood frame and it prints excellent with almost no calibration. Forge has this clone  http://amzn.com/B008CM2TCU for $1k (free shipping) and a metal version (with excellent reviews on Amazon) for $1k35  http://amzn.com/B00I8NM6JO (prime). Both have excellent reviews.

[casinada]

The Flash Forge Dreamer is $1299 but there is a $150 mail in rebate 
This one is more interesting but is not out yet:
http://spark.autodesk.com/ember

[Mechatrommer]

This one is more interesting but is not out yet:
http://spark.autodesk.com/ember

the problem (or benefit?) about this up side down syntering or what 3d printer.... the speed spec says... 15mm/hour. if its the same as FDM spec ie length of extruded filament, then thats unreasonably staggeringly slow (problem). if thats talking about 15mm vertical height (z axis) regardless of horizontal shape, then thats unreasonably high (benefit?). so whats that there talking 15mm/hour?

edit:

Build Volume
 X: 64 mm
 Y: 40 mm
 Z: 134 mm

ohh ok i didnt read this... if its only 6x4cm XY then thats reasonable. i think thats talking about Z axis speed.

[ConKbot]

We use rapid prototyping of all sorts all the time at my work. We have a contract in place with a shop, so it's nice and easy.  After a few weeks of messing with my own personal flash forge, working out the kinks, and having it run smoothly, my my jaw drops comparing it to a professional part run on a stratasys fdm machine. No comparison at all.

If you want a machine that works well, without having to specialize in tweaks, settings, tricks and optimizations, then there's no comparison.

Not that the consumer machines are bad machines, but don't even begin to think it's like a paper printer, and you send a file and it's done.

Figure out what you want to use it for, and what process fits your needs, if get some professional work done, see if using the rapid prototyping fits your needs like you thought it would, and then pick out a machine. Depending on labor rates and capabilities, a stratasys or other professional machine could end up cheaper in the long run than a consumer unit.

[Mechatrommer]

After a few weeks of messing with my own personal flash forge, working out the kinks, and having it run smoothly, my my jaw drops comparing it to a professional part run on a stratasys fdm machine. No comparison at all.

what do you mean no comparison? is that the stratasys result is too good and the diy is too bad?...
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,361365
https://galex49.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/stratasys-dimension-vs-reprap-no-contest/
i can see there's very broad need and expectation in this matter (as you can see above she's selling beads and expect to do it with 3dprinter), you may pick between the sub 2K and 35K machine and do the math.

[ConKbot]

After a few weeks of messing with my own personal flash forge, working out the kinks, and having it run smoothly, my my jaw drops comparing it to a professional part run on a stratasys fdm machine. No comparison at all.

what do you mean no comparison? is that the stratasys result is too good and the diy is too bad?...
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,361365
https://galex49.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/stratasys-dimension-vs-reprap-no-contest/
i can see there's very broad need and expectation in this matter (as you can see above she's selling beads and expect to do it with 3dprinter), you may pick between the sub 2K and 35K machine and do the math.

No comparison as in the stratasys was better looking than my own prints from my flash forge.

The stratasys prints were much 'cleaner', smooth finish, well bonded, felt strong, etc.  The FF prints surface finish was on par with what Ive seen from consumer units, but just wasnt as smooth. I.e.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7038/6970439344_eecbd925b8_n.jpg

I think that a good bit of it has to do with machine stiffness and motion control. You can slow down a consumer machine to reduce overshoot/ringing around the corners (as pictured above) But on a larger build, as you get higher, the material in the middle cools, so if it takes too long because you slowed it down, it increases warping.  Along with a stratasys having the patent for keeping the build chamber above the glass transition temp of the plastic as its being deposited, which helps a lot.

Also, for small items such as the beads linked, just arent very well suited to FDM, the Z-step being so much compared to the final product (only 16 layers in the red-orange pieces shown)  high res stereo lithography units, where you're looking at layers in the tens of microns, can look a lot better.   

Plus the software, probably as important as the machine, is a mature solution for the professional machines, and always changing on the consumer machines. I.e. with my dual extruder, if I wanted to use one material for support and another for the main material, I had to use makerbot's software. Slic3r didnt support that. It supported multiple colors, but the supports added underneath would be the same material they were supporting, so I'd have to add supports manually in my cad software.  Thats probably changed since then, as its been more than a few months since Ive played with what the latest and greatest software. 

[ehughes]

Here is my experience with the Cube Pro by 3d systems.   It is junk...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cubepro-warning-do-not-buy!/

[ROBERTOGEHLEN]

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