Rigol ds1054z

[Adrian_Arg.]

Here in Argentina the two who say they are representatives, told me to talk with Rigol or Tequipament, since they only sell it, they do not have the service documentation of this equipment, they say that Rigol leaves the merchant both the seller and the user orphan. bad father 

[nanofrog]

Here in Argentina the two who say they are representatives, told me to talk with Rigol or Tequipament, since they only sell it, they do not have the service documentation of this equipment, they say that Rigol leaves the merchant both the seller and the user. bad father 

The term: monkey fucking a football seems very appropriate here.       

[Adrian_Arg.]

  is true

[nanofrog]

Glad you got a laugh out of it. 

Support issues like this really separates the adults from the juveniles in terms of corporate structure & response. Rigol's gotten to the point they're making at least acceptable equipment (I suspect their new ASIC will really give their gear a boost), but they're still falling short on distributor issues as well as solving customer issues. They're getting better, but it will take time. Hence the juvenile comparison (still growing up).

Same goes for other Chinese based T&M manufacturers (i.e. Siglent Uni-Trend, Hantek). Taiwanese companies I'm familiar have been around longer, and fare a lot better at support IME (i.e. GW Instek, DER EE).

So it's the trade-off/compromise we make to get less expensive gear ATM. After all, proper support costs money and is reflected in the MSRP of their products. 

[Adrian_Arg.]

If the bad thing that the "support" they say they provide is a true lie.

For now, as I only do small projects of electronics and arduino, I use it with the probe in X1, and at the same time I configure it in X10, until I provide the solution.

[ebastler]

Dug into the manual for the 2445, and found...

...a warm-up period of at least 20 minutes, and is operating at an ambient temperature between -15°C and +55°C. (unless otherwise noted).

The Rigol user manual requires 30 minutes warm-up time before running Self Cal, and also indicates in the Specifications appendix that specs are only valid after 30 minutes of operation.

https://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS1000Z_UserGuide_EN.pdf, pages 14-9 and 17-1.

[nanofrog]

If the bad thing that the "support" they say they provide is a true lie.

For now, as I only do small projects of electronics and arduino, I use it with the probe in X1, and at the same time I configure it in X10, until I provide the solution.

From what I've seen here in the US (US office), it's not all that bad. Seem to recall they usually responded within a day or two. The part I really find annoying though, is you have to request firmware and wait for them to send you the link. 

The only other annoying issue I've had, is with the 1x/10x switch sliding to 1x extremely easily and has no tactile feel to let me know it's moved. Fixed with a bit of tape, but it's still a minor nuisance in the grand scheme of things.

Dug into the manual for the 2445, and found...

...a warm-up period of at least 20 minutes, and is operating at an ambient temperature between -15°C and +55°C. (unless otherwise noted).

The Rigol user manual requires 30 minutes warm-up time before running Self Cal, and also indicates in the Specifications appendix that specs are only valied after 30 minutes of operation.

Thanks. I'd forgotten that they specified a 30 min warm-up. But I've made it a habit to turn gear on and wait that long.

So much so it's pretty much a Pavlovian response at this point (minus the food). 

[Adrian_Arg.]

[/quote]

The Rigol user manual requires 30 minutes warm-up time before running Self Cal, and also indicates in the Specifications appendix that specs are only valid after 30 minutes of operation.

[/quote]

if I have that in mind, but
1- It does not say that the X10 probes will start unbalanced after being turned off for a long time.
2- And for the time of 30 minutes for an optimal measurement, these Chinese of Rigol if they do not win it, surely they tie it.

[mk_]

Are you saying the probe compensation drifted "AFTER" you have done the compensation at the "SAME" probe ?

Or different probe ?

this happens in the four probes, ten minutes later they are perfect as they compensate

Do you live near the ocean? sound like some kind of heavy moisture effects from salty air nearby the sea. Moisture disappears when the 1054 heats up...

Michael

[Adrian_Arg.]

no friend, I live in Concordia, province of Entre Rios, in Argentina, about 650km from the Atlantic Ocean. I continue listening to yourgenders.

[nanofrog]

OK, it's sat OFF long enough it's at room temp.

• Results: Probes were properly compensated right after turning it ON. None of the strange behavior you're experiencing.

Given what you've described, thermal cycling is a very strong possibility of it's cause IMHO. And as it's not channel specific, you don't need to remove the shielding on the front ends and check there. Save you some effort at any rate.

Do you have any cold spray?

• If not, I've used a duster can inverted (sprays liquid) as a substitute.
• A hair dryer can be of use as well (faster than waiting on the equipment to heat up).

[Roeland_R]

Do you have the same problem when measuring an external squarewave instead of using the internal calibration signal?

[Adrian_Arg.]

yes Sr. same problem, after it compensates it remains like a violin

[Adrian_Arg.]

OK, it's sat OFF long enough it's at room temp.

• Results: Probes were properly compensated right after turning it ON. None of the strange behavior you're experiencing.

Given what you've described, thermal cycling is a very strong possibility of it's cause IMHO. And as it's not channel specific, you don't need to remove the shielding on the front ends and check there. Save you some effort at any rate.

Do you have any cold spray?

• If not, I've used a duster can inverted (sprays liquid) as a substitute.
• A hair dryer can be of use as well (faster than waiting on the equipment to heat up).

if I think I'm going to have to uncover it and see if I find the weld failed, which I think is the problem. what is "thermal cycling"

[Adrian_Arg.]

this image is registered depies of two hours of use.

[nanofrog]

OK, it's sat OFF long enough it's at room temp.

• Results: Probes were properly compensated right after turning it ON. None of the strange behavior you're experiencing.

Given what you've described, thermal cycling is a very strong possibility of it's cause IMHO. And as it's not channel specific, you don't need to remove the shielding on the front ends and check there. Save you some effort at any rate.

Do you have any cold spray?

• If not, I've used a duster can inverted (sprays liquid) as a substitute.
• A hair dryer can be of use as well (faster than waiting on the equipment to heat up).

if I think I'm going to have to uncover it and see if I find the weld failed, which I think is the problem. what is "thermal cycling"

Thermal cycling is just a term for heating & cooling cycles on the PCB's/components. It can introduce mechanical flex, and if that happens to occur on an improper solder joint, it can cause undesirable behavior (even cause a joint to fail). The result could be anything from intermittent operation to varied values for example, which sounds like what you're experiencing to me.

I'd definitely open it up and carefully inspect the solder joints after the analog input sections. Use magnification if you have it (hard to spot sometimes with the naked eye).

Using cold spray and a hair dryer can help you locate a bad joint. This technique can help you find it quickly and easily, particularly if the joint appears good during a visual inspection. For example, a component appears to have wet properly, yet the component lifts off of the pad when heated or cooled as the connection is purely mechanical. It's a very handy technique, and can really speed up finding such a fault.

[Adrian_Arg.]

ok, I'm going to see if I can get the spray to cool down in my city.

[nanofrog]

ok, I'm going to see if I can get the spray to cool down in my city.

Cold spray tends to be R134a refrigerant (i.e. MG Chemicals Super Cold 134).

A simple trick you can use if you don't have cold spray is turn a duster can upside down so it sprays liquid.  Cheap and easy. 

[pgo]

Hi,
Just my two cents worth.

Since all four channels have the same fault and drift in the same fashion I believe it would be unlikely to be a soldering problem.  I would not think that poor soldering quality would be that consistent across channels.

It could be some kind of contamination problem as suggested earlier I guess - it's at least plausible.

However I would suggest that a manufacturing fault it the cause - likely one of the front end components are incorrect - for example the same capacitor in each channel has the wrong value (less likely) or is of the wrong type with an incorrect temperature coefficient. This would account for temperature dependent drift on all channels due to a single error -  incorrect batch of capacitors.

Since the drift occurs within the warranted warm up period you may not have a case under warranty?

We did have several oscilloscopes at work that had significant drift in trace position on the screen during warm-up - about half a division.  The supplier argued that this was within specs.  We ended up returning them.
 
bye 

[Adrian_Arg.]

Whatever the problem, I have to solve it. Since it has three years of warranty, but the costs of return shipping cost almost the same as the equipment, I would have liked that Rigol had sent me a service manual, to know where to look. The oscilloscope once it stabilizes is going well, but it is the first and last time that I bought in of Rigol and tequipament. Example a year ago I bought a Chinese welding station, came with the failed display, after 45 days I received a display replacement, I changed it and now it works well.

[TK]

Can you measure Peak to Peak voltage when it is uncompensated and compensated?

[Adrian_Arg.]

ok, tomorrow I upload the images of compensated and uncompensated values.

[ebastler]

I would have liked that Rigol had sent me a service manual, to know where to look.

I doubt that a service manual even exists. Or if there is one, that it goes beyond: "Here's how to open the unit and swap one of the two PCBs."

[TK]

Dave reverse engineered the DS1054Z front end.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-675-how-to-reverse-engineer-a-rigol-ds1054z/msg534470/#msg534470

[Adrian_Arg.]

Can you measure Peak to Peak voltage when it is uncompensated and compensated?

the first image is uncompensated


and this is already compensated after about ten minutes.