Charging by the hour is unfair!

[David_AVD]

In the world of clock and watch repairs it is quite common for a repair to cost more than the commercial value of the product, because many clocks and watches have a strong sentimental value. One thing that sometimes happens is that the customer realises they don't miss their clock very much after all, so they just never come back and pay.  The repairer is left with a clock they've just spent four hours on and which might fetch a hundred bucks on eBay if they are lucky.

This can happen in other repair industries too, including electronics and is why I charge an upfront fee. It makes the customer think more clearly about the risk of a non repair and it also provides a minimum return for my time (and possibly parts) if they never collect it. If it's just you working from home such losses are not as bad (I worked from home originally), but if you're paying commercial rent and have employees the losses bite harder.

I would estimate that even after filtering out the obvious "not worth looking at" jobs (before booking in), I end up with one item per week on average that doesn't end up repaired. Sometimes it's because it's just not possible, but most times it would be because the total repair bill would be too high. In maybe 75% of those cases the customer does not want the item back so it goes onto a shelf in the "graveyard" area of the workshop or maybe straight to the e-waste pallet if I don't think there's any usable parts in it.

Several times I have been able to repair a customer's item with a (otherwise unobtainable or expensive) part that came from a written off unit. Customers who leave their dead item are actually happy that it could help someone else. Occasionally I'll have someone (maybe not even an existing customer) drop in with an item and ask if I want it for parts. Most times I accept it as even if I don't need anything from it I'd rather put it in e-waste than have them put it into general waste (the ground).

[SMdude]

I think that it highly depends on what things you are repairing.
If you are repairing the same items day in day out, then no repair no fee is generally reasonable as the difficult ones become a learning exercise that will benefit you in the future of being able to identify the problem quickly.
However, if you are repairing all kinds of oddball stuff, then there needs to be an upfront fee or at least a good understanding that they will pay something even if it is not repaired, but not as much as if it were repaired.
For me to just give my time to random strangers for free, it doesn't work well. I have enough things to do without doing pointless jobs.
Do random strangers after having me work on their gear mow the grass, do some gardening, fix my car, paint the house just as some extra freebies for me?  NO! Its a two way street right? If you want something for nothing, so do I!

That being said, if you are newer to electronic repair and your success rate is not that good, then it is probably a good thing to do no fix no fee until you are more competent and confident in your work. Then after you have gained good experience and now have a much higher success rate, then you are more entitled to ask for something for your time as if you have not been able to repair it, you may have sunk a lot of extra time into it already.

Most of my work is fixed fee, but I work on niche products that I know inside out. However when someone presents an unknown device you have to set some limits as to how much time you are willing to spend on it  and let the customer know.

[all_repair]

Agreed.  Is it a business or a charity?  The proposed formula is neither a busniess nor a charity.  Treasure your skill, and also treasure the good meaning.  Charge as high as your skill can fetch, that is a respect to your skill and time.  And when meeting clients from charitable organisations needing your repair and skill go much further than no-fix-no-fee.  That is what I think can make a fairer society.   
Most charitable organisations we met would like us to charge as normal and be profitable, so to survive and keep  playing our useful role, and be a donor if we think they are also playing their useful roles.

[SmallCog]

I'm an electronics technician in my day job, but I don't do work for members of the public so costings aren't really a thing like they would be when you're charging a job out.

Previously I've made a bit of beer money doing repairs for people. These have just been simple things like replacing a USB socket or repairing a cable or something like that. Not really electronics, more mechanical really. These were all done on a fixed price basis with no fix no fee.

This was simplest for everyone concerned, there was no real diagnostics involved on my part, I knew what I'd need to supply as far as parts, and they knew what they'd be up for in regards to costs to decide if it was worth repairing or not.

I certainly wouldn't take on a job involving complex diagnostics on a fixed price basis.

It's been quite a while since I did paid repairs for people, but I do volunteer at a repair cafe doing basic repairs. From my experience you can get upset/disappointed customers even when it's a free service to help people. We are very specific in that we don't provide parts and those who seek our help need to source/bring their own. Whilst can often fix things by simply cleaning a contact or a bit of soldering sometimes a faulty item needs parts. Luckily in Australia retailers like Jaycar are still an option to pop into and buy a new connector or a switch or a capacitor yet we've had people get quite upset that we don't just have all of these things here to give them for free and that they need to be the one to go for a short drive and get the parts needed.

Luckily the majority of people who visit are not like this and are appreciative of the principle of the repair cafe in that a volunteer will sit with you and help you fix your item. Most things that we fix would not be economical to take in to be repaired and would simply be e-waste if not fixed by us.

[SteveThackery]

Agreed.  Is it a business or a charity?  The proposed formula is neither a busniess nor a charity. 

No fix / no fee doesn't turn a business into a charity.  The proposed formula is - according to our contributors - already used by some successful businesses.

[SteveThackery]

I certainly wouldn't take on a job involving complex diagnostics on a fixed price basis.

No, neither would I. In this situation, there needs to be some way of giving the customer an estimate so they can decide whether to proceed or not.

[David_AVD]

I certainly wouldn't take on a job involving complex diagnostics on a fixed price basis.

No, neither would I. In this situation, there needs to be some way of giving the customer an estimate so they can decide whether to proceed or not.

And that way already exists. The customer pays for the diagnosis and an estimate based on the facts. Without looking at most items, any estimate you give is more like a guess instead of a close estimate or a firm quote.

I had a customer ring today about his favourite radio / cassette from the 80s'. He wanted to know how much to fix the cassette section. I advised that it was not possible to know or even give a close estimate without starting the job which would have seen him pay an upfront fee. He did not want to pay anything for an unknown outcome, so I gave him a pure wild guess to the likely cost and chance of success. Suddenly the favourite item from his youth was not worth spending anything on and he declined to bring it in. I don't want to be spending all day on the phone dishing out guesses, so I try and keep the calls short and to the point and will err on the high side for those guesses. I'd rather less customers who are already on the fence about a repair.

[Gyro]

Agreed.  Is it a business or a charity?  The proposed formula is neither a busniess nor a charity. 

No fix / no fee doesn't turn a business into a charity.  The proposed formula is - according to our contributors - already used by some successful businesses.

I can't see how that is different from providing your skills for nothing (my previous point). However it is a positive disincentive from doing any more that taking the back off, looking for easy fix bulged electrolytics and then slapping it back on again if you don't see any. Detailed fault-finding takes time, and if you're eventually going to find something not economically repairable then you get paid nothing. No incentive to start, which is bad for repairer and customer.

[PlainName]

Suddenly the favourite item from his youth was not worth spending anything on and he declined to bring it in.

Consider the alternative where he'd either paid up-front or agreed to whatever it costs in the end, and then discovering the actual cost. He may well have thought that had he known beforehand how much it would be, he'd never have considered it. So that's a customer out of pocket an unhappy.

Perhaps a midway solution would be to agree an upfront (not necessarily paid upfront) cost to investigate (and potentially fix), and if it's looking to go over then the customer is advised and they can either accept a new estimate or not.

ISTM that paying per hour is effectively making the repairer an employee in all but name, and yet not having any say on the matter. Paying an agreed fee (even if that turns out to require adjustment) is paying for the result rather than the journey getting there.

[SteveThackery]

I can't see how that is different from providing your skills for nothing (my previous point).

You obviously haven't read the thread.  We've done this to death already. The customer doesn't want to buy your skills, they want to buy a repair.  That dichotomy - you want to sell your labour, the customer wants to buy the fruits of your labour, is what this entire thread is about.

However it is a positive disincentive from doing any more that taking the back off, looking for easy fix bulged electrolytics and then slapping it back on again if you don't see any. Detailed fault-finding takes time, and if you're eventually going to find something not economically repairable then you get paid nothing. No incentive to start, which is bad for repairer and customer.

Again, we've done this already. There should never be an open-ended money tree whereby the customer faces an extortionate bill because it took you two days to fix the item. The customer takes all the risk, you take none. Following your business model, it is actually in your interest to take as long as possible over the job, and that isn't fair on the customer.  Also, what if it takes two days because you're not as smart as you think you are?  The less competent you are, the more the customer pays!

The whole point of this lengthy debate is to find a model which is fair to the repairer and the customer.  And that means sharing the risk equally, as well as the reward.

Anyway, done to death.  Every detail has been forensically dissected and examined in the previous messages.  See above.

[SteveThackery]

Suddenly the favourite item from his youth was not worth spending anything on and he declined to bring it in.

Consider the alternative where he'd either paid up-front or agreed to whatever it costs in the end, and then discovering the actual cost. He may well have thought that had he known beforehand how much it would be, he'd never have considered it. So that's a customer out of pocket an unhappy.

Exactly.

Perhaps a midway solution would be to agree an upfront (not necessarily paid upfront) cost to investigate (and potentially fix), and if it's looking to go over then the customer is advised and they can either accept a new estimate or not.

Exactly.

[Runco990]

Well, Steve.... I would never want you as a customer, as it sounds like you'd never be happy with my work.

Having said that:  I take a one hour minimum diagnostic.  Period.  I pre-qualify all my customers on the phone, and even talked some out of fixing their unit, as it was just not worth it for either of us. 

If I don't work on something, like for example Nakamichi Decks, I refer the customer to someone who DOES.  I don't stock NAK parts and feel a specialist is better for those jobs.

Then an estimate.  Which is exactly that.  An ESTIMATE.

If work is approved and performed and I am successful, I expect to be paid.

If I fail, I do not charge for the "work", but my 1 hour minimum stands.  I very, very rarely fail.  Yes, I am good at what I do, but sometimes things don't work out due to some part no longer available.  Anywhere.

SOME jobs get out of hand, but in my case I love restoring reel to reel decks, so at some point I just flat rate the job.  I want to fix the machine and the customer to be happy AND come back with other work.

I NEVER advertise.  I work from home.  So my reputation on the internet was truly earned and I am grateful to have it.  It's ALL word of mouth, so there is ZERO incentive for me to cheat anyone.  In fact, I don't need to do this at ALL, so you can go piss up a rope for all I care....  I do this because I like it, and in the end it pays for the food...  which sure is expensive these days.

In the end, if you don't like it, learn to do it yourself.  We are all retiring soon and you can complain to someone else.  2 years for me. 

[fzabkar]

If work is approved and performed and I am successful, I expect to be paid.

If I fail, I do not charge for the "work", but my 1 hour minimum stands.  I very, very rarely fail.

Then you are in the enviable position of being able to afford not to accept a minimum payment for that tiny fraction of jobs that you don't manage to complete.

[Runco990]

I am.  But I pick what I work on.  I do not work on just anything.

[SteveThackery]

Well, Steve.... I would never want you as a customer, as it sounds like you'd never be happy with my work.

Having said that:  I take a one hour minimum diagnostic.  Period.

[...]

Then an estimate.  Which is exactly that.  An ESTIMATE.

If work is approved and performed and I am successful, I expect to be paid.

If I fail, I do not charge for the "work", but my 1 hour minimum stands.  I very, very rarely fail.  Yes, I am good at what I do, but sometimes things don't work out due to some part no longer available.  Anywhere.

SOME jobs get out of hand, but in my case I love restoring reel to reel decks, so at some point I just flat rate the job.  I want to fix the machine and the customer to be happy AND come back with other work.

Why on earth would you not want me for a customer?  Perhaps you haven't read the thread, but what you describe is pretty much exactly what I've been advocating!

😀

[Runco990]

Why on earth would you not want me for a customer?  Perhaps you haven't read the thread, but what you describe is pretty much exactly what I've been advocating!

😀

You know I can only do this because it's basically my HOBBY.  If I had a ton of bills and had to pay for a shop, I'd find something else to do.

Now if you could convince politicians and CEO's to actually produce ANYTHING for their paychecks.....  THERE I'm on your side.  These people keep failing upwards and become millionaires.

[David_AVD]

Suddenly the favourite item from his youth was not worth spending anything on and he declined to bring it in.

Consider the alternative where he'd either paid up-front or agreed to whatever it costs in the end, and then discovering the actual cost. He may well have thought that had he known beforehand how much it would be, he'd never have considered it. So that's a customer out of pocket an unhappy.

I don't just repair an item at any cost and present a bill to the customer at the end. Likely costs and limits are discussed at booking in time. The customer being out of pocket in the case of an unrepaired item is not my problem.

Perhaps a midway solution would be to agree an upfront (not necessarily paid upfront) cost to investigate (and potentially fix), and if it's looking to go over then the customer is advised and they can either accept a new estimate or not.

I do charge an upfront fee. It covers the first hour of labour. Occasionally I will book something in for half the amount (which covers 30 mins of labour) if I suspect that I can diagnose it accurately in less time. As I've said before, not charging the fee upfront leads to losses due to customers who fail to collect the item.

ISTM that paying per hour is effectively making the repairer an employee in all but name, and yet not having any say on the matter. Paying an agreed fee (even if that turns out to require adjustment) is paying for the result rather than the journey getting there.

In a lot of (most ?) service industries, a "result" is not the same as a completed repair. It's a service performed. Would you complain about the tech who comes out, diagnoses your dishwasher / oven / washing machine / fridge, can't repair it (due to cost / parts) but still charges you for their time?

[CatalinaWOW]

Just to explore a corner of this issue which hasn't been totally beaten to death.

It has been stated that the repairer has no right to an income and is therefor unjustified in charging anything for unsuccessful repairs.

I totally agree with the statement that the repairer has no right to an income.  Of course I am thoroughly embedded in a self sufficient mindset.  Someone from a place that was more egalitarian and society minded might not agree so completely.

But there is another consequence of my point of view.  The customer has no right for a repair business to exist.  If repairers find that they can't earn a living they must choose some other occupation and the customer is left with no alternative but replacement.  While several business models have been proposed none of them (including per hour fee with no guarantee of repair) assure that repairers exist.  If customers desire such a service to exist they may be required to exhibit some flexibility in their desires.

An analogy in my life.  I much prefer a brick and mortar store where I can examine a product before deciding to purchase, benefit from the expertise of the shop owner, and having made the decision can immediately satisfy my desire for the product.  Unfortunately the economics of a brick and mortar store competing with on line retailers has eliminated a large number of them.  Most of the survivors do so through a hybrid business model where the on line portion of their business allows the physical presence to remain open.  And the geographic density of those survivors is much lower meaning I have lost access to a great many products in my preferred format.  I have had to adapt, regardless of my preferences.  I have also been forced to admit that on line retailers have advantages, even for me.

I fundamentally don't think this is a fairness or morality issue, just a consequence of economic activity. 

[shabaz]

I fundamentally don't think this is a fairness or morality issue, just a consequence of economic activity.

Exactly; in itself, it's not inherently unfair or immoral at all.
Otherwise, where would it end. Taken to an extreme, it could be considered immoral to give up, even if you don't charge for the repair. Would it be more moral to not stop working till the end of time, and then charge a fixed fee because that was what was promised? Wouldn't that be immoral for the customer to then accept? Would it be immoral for the engineer to continue working knowing that it might make the customer's behavior become immoral.

Fortunately, the solution is simple. One can't force people to fix their hi-fi, or force any kind of work, that's a principle now entrenched almost everywhere since abolition of slavery. The solution is to use a contract, and morals have got nothing to do with them (granted terms must not be [legally] unfair, which is a completely different thing, often related to negligence and so on); if the contract is broken then there is simply an exchange of money (in either direction) as defined in the contract.

And as mentioned by people, the pricing model for the repair is a completely different thing.

[fzabkar]

This is an interesting thread which discusses the pros and cons of free quotes and no fix, no fee.

"Business Strategy.. $0 fees if nothing recovered":
https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?p=311514#p311514

@fzabkar "For example, a DR company may know that it is incapable of recovering a helium drive with a mechanical fault, but they may still accept the drive just so they can earn money from a diagnosis."

Indeed - a couple of months ago I inspected a helium filled 18TB HDD which had been to a well known UK data recovery company, that had charged £2500 upfront non-refundable for the recovery attempt. Needless to say the data was not recoverable. Worst of all, the disk had a mechanical failure (motor seized) and they had not even bothered to open the disk to at least give the impression the disk had been worked on! Just took the money from the customer desperate for their data. Disgraceful.

[m k]

How much is practical top of billable hours?

I'd say 50% is pretty high for micro company.
So 20 hours a week for a salary worker.

Once a smoker had more breaks than work hours.
But productivity was still better than of some constantly working workers.

Here direct cost of a work hour is roughly 185% of bto salary.
10.5 months of work for 12.5 months of salary
+25% social security and pension
+25% VAT

Here employer deducts income tax.
It's counted as payed even if not actually payed.

That 0.5 months of salary is a relic from different era.
Back then it was return from vacation payment.
Now return part is dropped and current workers take it as granted.

Pension is mandatory and paid to special private insurance company.
For that company it's also against the law to go under.
So its profits are guaranteed.

Salary of Sunday can be 300%, pretty high if production is the same as Monday.
No wonder some employers would like to turn a new page.

Obviously that 300% of Sunday doesn't include every day open retail shops.

And yes, being a salary worker is a bit different than being an entrepreneur.