EU Right to Repair

[SteveThackery]

Colleagues!

Has "right to repair" legislation affected you to any significant extent?

I ask because I live in Britain and we are broadly following the EU rules, and I'm struck by how toothless they are.  For example, spares need only be available for seven to ten years after a product's market introduction. This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

Also, it seems that data and documentation need only be made available to "repair professionals". This is a massive blow for me because I'm a hobbiest repairer in several fields but a professional in none. I've hardly ever used a professional repairer and I don't want to start now because of the costs.

I expect the argument to support that position is that many products have a safety element involved, especially electrical items. But now I'm left wondering how a "professional repairer" would be evaluated for their skills and qualifications relating to electrical work.  Have any of you been through such a process?

Here in Europe right-to-repair seems a great idea, but in practice probably won't make all that much difference.  It seems obvious to me that repairs are the very last thing product manufacturers want; they want to sell you a new one, every time, if they can.

[Paceguy]

I'm in Canada and there has been talk about the right to repair and to strengthen consumer protection laws to have manufacturers sell products that last, for what can be considered a reasonable life time. Also to have them make replacements parts available for more than 5 years. There is too much e-waste and home appliances being junked within 8 years of their usefull life. Spare parts are hard to find and when one does find them, they, more than often, are extremely expensive making one think twice about going forward with a repair and instead putting the money towards the purchase or a new unit.

[Infraviolet]

" need only be made available to "repair professionals" "
As soon as such information is made available, some will post it online for wider sharing. Look at what Rossmann does, he's in America and his business is mostly focused on repairing Apple devices, but the same should happen sooner or later for any other device manufacturers once documentation is shared.

[Arhigos]

This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

How businesses suppose to make it happen?

They should keep warehouses full of obsolete items for 20 years? And what if they run out of that part? They should provide you a free replacement? 

[wraper]

Colleagues!

Has "right to repair" legislation affected you to any significant extent?

I ask because I live in Britain and we are broadly following the EU rules, and I'm struck by how toothless they are.  For example, spares need only be available for seven to ten years after a product's market introduction. This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

It should depend on the type of product/part. For example it makes very little sense for keeping smartphone (especially low end) parts for more than 5 years as at that point it becomes beyond economical repair and a part will likely will be more expensive than a used phone, not even counting labor. As of your 20 year old car, I doubt you'll to pay for anything other than cheapest types of original parts as a new engine would likely cost like 3-5 cars of yours.

[rteodor]

This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

How businesses suppose to make it happen?

They should keep warehouses full of obsolete items for 20 years? And what if they run out of that part? They should provide you a free replacement? 

Nope. They should either:
- use standard components
- use standard interfaces (i.e. no soldered RAM, SDD and batteries)
- open specifications for other companies to manufacture replacement parts if inhouse storage and/or manufacturing is no longer economical. Sub-contracting is also an already established practice but not widespread enough.

A lot can be done if there is will.

[wraper]

This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

How businesses suppose to make it happen?

They should keep warehouses full of obsolete items for 20 years? And what if they run out of that part? They should provide you a free replacement? 

Nope. They should either:
- use standard components
- use standard interfaces (i.e. no soldered RAM, SDD and batteries)
- open specifications for other companies to manufacture replacement parts if inhouse storage and/or manufacturing is no longer economical. Sub-contracting is also an already established practice but not widespread enough.

Try writing that into a law in a way so it does not backfire spectacularly.

[AndyC_772]

How does any new component become a "standard component" under those restrictions?

"Sorry, you can't use that new part that's smaller / lower power / faster / cheaper (delete as applicable) than a 'standard' part, because it's not a 'standard' part."

[Arhigos]

This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

How businesses suppose to make it happen?

They should keep warehouses full of obsolete items for 20 years? And what if they run out of that part? They should provide you a free replacement? 

Nope. They should either:
- use standard components
- use standard interfaces (i.e. no soldered RAM, SDD and batteries)
- open specifications for other companies to manufacture replacement parts if inhouse storage and/or manufacturing is no longer economical. Sub-contracting is also an already established practice but not widespread enough.

A lot can be done if there is will.

Everyone is always trying to use standard components.
Some exemptions (i.e. ASIC chips or custom connectors) are usually used when there is no other alternative. Also, what's wrong with soldered chips? It saves money by removing extra parts from BOM and few less steps for assembly at factory

[Haenk]

I think we will see an even further move to standardized parts - within one company, of course. There really is no need to rush out new models of a dishwasher every 6 months, still companies prefer to do that, until now. Now the stockpiling of spare parts will be so expensive they likely will reduce the number of "pseudo-new" products by a lot.
Still they could construct those things to be never ever repaired, like my Bosch (?) washing mashine. No removable panels, no screws, everything held together tightly by enourmous springs, which I didn't dare to touch. They really looked life-threatening and impossible to reinstall; shame on me, but I dumped it, the damaged parts was simply unreachable without disassembling the machine. So even offereing all parts for cheap would make a repair nearly impossible (or maybe they have a speacial tool in the repair shop, like the widowmaker spring compressor...).

[wraper]

I think we will see an even further move to standardized parts - within one company, of course. There really is no need to rush out new models of a dishwasher every 6 months, still companies prefer to do that, until now. Now the stockpiling of spare parts will be so expensive they likely will reduce the number of "pseudo-new" products by a lot.

There is no old/new part compatibility problem in dishwashers beside circuit boards. Pumps, sensors, gaskets, tray wheels remain the same for many years.

[wraper]

Still they could construct those things to be never ever repaired, like my Bosch (?) washing mashine. No removable panels, no screws, everything held together tightly by enourmous springs, which I didn't dare to touch.

What enormous springs? Springs that hold the the drum unit? What screws, do you want drum unit to be bolted to the enclosure so machine jumps above the floor every time it does a spin cycle? What removable panels do you need when basically everything can be accessed from the top, back/front  . Also unless drum unit front and back plastic housings are welded together (usually in cheap machines) it can be taken apart and repaired too.

[fmashockie]

Colleagues!

Has "right to repair" legislation affected you to any significant extent?

I ask because I live in Britain and we are broadly following the EU rules, and I'm struck by how toothless they are.  For example, spares need only be available for seven to ten years after a product's market introduction. This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

Also, it seems that data and documentation need only be made available to "repair professionals". This is a massive blow for me because I'm a hobbiest repairer in several fields but a professional in none. I've hardly ever used a professional repairer and I don't want to start now because of the costs.

I expect the argument to support that position is that many products have a safety element involved, especially electrical items. But now I'm left wondering how a "professional repairer" would be evaluated for their skills and qualifications relating to electrical work.  Have any of you been through such a process?

Here in Europe right-to-repair seems a great idea, but in practice probably won't make all that much difference.  It seems obvious to me that repairs are the very last thing product manufacturers want; they want to sell you a new one, every time, if they can.

Huge proponent of right to repair.  It would be ideal if we could collectively come together a society and agree that the current way of doing things isn't working.  In the same way we feel about climate change (look how well that is going).  Because the two are related.  And at this point, it is not only the manufacturers' fault: consumers don't care to repair their devices and only want the next latest/greatest thing; manufacturers recognize this and continue to make their items more difficult to repair.  It is a bit of a chicken or the egg situation.  I'm not sure which came first. 

Parts should be made available, schematics/service manuals as well.  It's not like we are asking the manufacturers to do something they've never done before.  They used to.  And then they stopped.  So personally, I don't care if they have to keep a replacement part stocked for 20 years.  If they stopped making a new dishwasher as someone said every 6 months, this wouldn't be all that hard!  And again, that is where the consumer's role comes in in all this. 

[wraper]

They used to.  And then they stopped.  So personally, I don't care if they have to keep a replacement part stocked for 20 years. If they stopped making a new dishwasher as someone said every 6 months, this wouldn't be all that hard!  And again, that is where the consumer's role comes in in all this.

If you want washing machine parts stocked for 20 years, you should not care paying 1.5x for a machine as well. IMO parts and especially schematics should be available to the public but 20 years is ridiculous and does not come for free.

[fmashockie]

If you want washing machine parts stocked for 20 years, you should not care paying 1.5x for a machine as well. IMO parts and especially schematics should be available to the public but 20 years is ridiculous and does not come for free.

I'd have no problem paying more for a washer that is going to last 20 years vs one that will last 5 years.  I think most people would agree on that.  Now getting them to understand that at time of purchase, is another matter.  And in fact, if you're someone who looks for reliability/longevity in things you buy, you're probably already used to paying more, because companies that make things last are generally using better parts which are more expensive.

Look, asking to keep a part stocked for 20 years isn't a ridiculous thing.  My toyota is pushing 20 years and I can still get all the parts for it from Toyota. I work as a lab engineer and even a lot of lab equipment manufacturers do this (and they are huge offenders of right to repair in general).  Do I think there should be laws that state a part needs to be stocked that long?  I'm not sure.  What I'm advocating for is a change we all need to make as individuals.  And it would be better if it occurred without any laws.  But if we want to talk about laws, I'd push for laws that make service manuals/schematics available.  Those documents already exist; they just need to make them available to the public.

[wraper]

Look, asking to keep a part stocked for 20 years isn't a ridiculous thing.  My toyota is pushing 20 years and I can still get all the parts for it from Toyota. I work as a lab engineer and even a lot of lab equipment manufacturers do this (and they are huge offenders of right to repair in general).  Do I think there should be laws that state a part needs to be stocked that long?  I'm not sure.  What I'm advocating for is a change we all need to make as individuals.  And it would be better if it occurred without any laws.  But if we want to talk about laws, I'd push for laws that make service manuals/schematics available.  Those documents already exist; they just need to make them available to the public.

They may keep some parts for 20 years because not that many are needed, it's not something that goes obsolete (like bearings) and they don't take that much space. But requirement for storing parts would need them keeping a full stock of parts for 20 years with no prior knowledge how much of what actually will be needed.

I work as a lab engineer and even a lot of lab equipment manufacturers do this (and they are huge offenders of right to repair in general).

In this field IME they have the stock of parts for 1-2 decades until eventually they run out of more and more parts.

[SteveThackery]

This seems a ridiculously short time.  I own three cars and all are older than 20 years.  In fact, I'd very much want all my household appliances to last at least 20 years.

How businesses suppose to make it happen?

They should keep warehouses full of obsolete items for 20 years? And what if they run out of that part? They should provide you a free replacement? 

So what do you think is a reasonable time? 10 years? 5 years? Choose a number, and then justify it to us.

If we want to reduce e-waste, then logically the higher the number the better.

[SteveThackery]

Try writing that into a law in a way so it does not backfire spectacularly.

But that is exactly what the legislators are trying to do.  Do you disagree with the attempt to reduce e-waste?

[SteveThackery]

...... 20 years is ridiculous and does not come for free.

Nobody said it should come for free.  I think products are too cheap, and that encourages our throw-away society.  And yet I can see how complicated it might be to guarantee repairability - the longer, the more difficult.

If you think 20 years is ridiculous (and you'd be in good company), tell us a non-ridiculous number and then justify it.

[nali]

Keeping spares for 20 years is going to be at a massive cost - either in the cost of the spare part, or the cost of new product.

I used to work for Panasonic (Matsushita) in the 1990s whose policy then was spares support for 7 years. Their spares holding ran into the tens of thousands of line items, all individually packaged and maintained. That along with the downward trend in new product prices is why a new circuit board for your 5 year old widget costs more than buying a new widget.

[wraper]

Try writing that into a law in a way so it does not backfire spectacularly.

But that is exactly what the legislators are trying to do.  Do you disagree with the attempt to reduce e-waste?

I disagree with creating more and more feel good regulations by politicians with no clue of how things actually work. Many things that sound well are absolutely terrible in practice.  And I don't see how it can be required to use standard parts in a way that progress does not go down the drain. Who decides what is a standard part and where it's required to use a standard part? Is a standard part an MCU or a whole board? What if by using "standard parts" you need to use 10x more materials to do the same thing? Not to say as a small company you won't be able to make your part standard, so it will push out small players.

[SteveThackery]

FWIW, I suspect making sure the electronics are repairable for 20 years is the least of your problems.  A failed ASIC is probably a show-stopper, but pretty much everything else is easy. We've all worked on electronics older than that. I've got a valve amplifier to repair which is about 65 years old, and it's perfectly repairable.

No, I suspect the real showstoppers will be things like complex plastic mouldings - basically stuff that is literally unique to one specific product.  Even then, in 20 years time we might well have the ability to scan in a 3D shape, "repair" it in your CAD program, and then print another. Indeed we can do it now, and it's only going to get easier.

Anything mechanical and metal will basically be fixable forever.

[AndyC_772]

I'd start by visiting a local rubbish tip, looking in the e-waste bin, and taking an inventory. Any R2R rules would only need to cover, say, 80% of the weight of that bin's contents in order to achieve a really worthwhile goal. Anything representing less weight of rubbish than that would fall into the 'restrictions do more harm than good' category, which would exempt almost anything that isn't a consumer item, and spare the electronics industry as a whole an enormous weight of bureaucracy and restrictions for minimal gain.

What's left? TVs, washing machines, fridges, microwaves, etc. All kinds of stuff that can be - and therefore usually is - built down to an absolute minimum price with no regard for longevity or serviceability.

Here I completely agree, there's no good reason why spare parts shouldn't be routinely made available, kept available for a reasonable amount of time after a product has been discontinued, and supplied at reasonable cost to anyone and everyone as a matter of routine.

However, by weight, volume, or any other metric that can be meaninfully applied to e-waste, I don't think there's any real benefit to applying similar restrictions to lab equipment and similar. Landfill sites are simply not full of old scopes and power supplies; they're full of crap, bottom-of-the-barrel brand consumer goods that have lasted their 2 yr warranties and then died.

[wraper]

If you think 20 years is ridiculous (and you'd be in good company), tell us a non-ridiculous number and then justify it.

As I said above, there is no fits all number. Say who in hell needs 20 year old RAM for the price as when it was produced when it's basically worthless?

[fmashockie]

I'm in a bit of agreement with wraper in that nailing down the parts availability law is a bit more challenging.  I think that has to come from us.  Again, if we as consumers weren't looking for the next/best trend/thing, asking a company to keep parts for a product that will be kept by the consumer for 10-20 years anyway, isn't ridiculous to ask.  And as I've stated before, there are companies that already do this because they make products that are built to last and are reliable.  Toyota is an example. I've got no idea what the percentage is (I would estimate > 75% of the parts on that vehicle are still available), but I do my own car repairs and I have yet to come across a part I couldn't order directly from the manufacture for my vehicle that is now > 15 years old.