Charging by the hour is unfair!

[m k]

My earlier car analogy, passenger and cargo.
Both stop in the middle of a trip.
Passenger car is towed away, but truck service comes to check the cargo vehicle.

The truck service is an independent third party, just a part of a pool of services.
Just like tow truck, a truck service van has a limited operation radius.

If truck is finally towed away what will happen to the cost of truck service?

Other way around.
You bring in a box and ask if it can be fixed.
You expect this looking for an answer is free, for how long, an hour?

The beginning of this thread is very simple.
High expectations and low results.

Many consumer electronics repair shops around here have all kind of labels, big and small, indicating how things are priced.
If I go there I can't guarantee that I see any of them.

Here repair shops used to have some obligations, to give a guarantee of three months for the work they did, to store stuff for three months after they are ready to pick up.
They also had some rights, after three months the ownership of not collected items were shifted.
I predict that those are not less today.

[fmashockie]

I'm sorry for being rude, but it really pisses me off to be accused of being a "troll" when I am no such thing.  I am arguing for something I believe in passionately, and every statement I make - including the critical ones - is heartfelt and genuine.

So for those who continue to label me as a troll, kindly piss off. 

The "political" stuff you refer to is completely on-topic. It became clear that the practices most people on the thread find completely normal and acceptable, I find the opposite, and I was wondering if there could be a cultural basis to our different attitudes.

You asked about dollars.  I got the impression that most people in this debate are American, so I used dollars as a small courtesy.

I'm also pissed off by people misrepresenting my position.  I am not advocating open-ended working for free.  I am putting forward an argument that - just as you sometimes expect the customer to pay for nothing*, sometimes it might be morally appropriate for you to work for nothing. This would be rare, but sometimes fair.

(*) And no: the argument that the customer is paying for your labour, not the fruits of your labour, is self-serving and so full of holes it's laughable.  I don't feel the need to spell all that out again for you - we've done it to death.

I hope that has clarified the matters you raised. And again, I'm sorry for being rude, but I am NOT a fucking troll, and if anyone reading this is tempted to accuse me of such, either piss off or try to read and understand what I am actually advocating.

Now see had you stuck to being polite, calm, and patient, like you were in this post, I would have gladly entertained this continued discussion without calling you a troll or anything else someone might deem offensive or personal. 

But when you start assuming that because we do not advocate for "no fix, no fee" that we somehow lack empathy for the customer, or that we approve of anyone ripping customers off by selecting any hourly/fixed rate they want without the expertise/skill to back it up, then you're being an asshole.  And that is exactly what you were doing. 

Everyone here (at least from what I read) was already in agreement with you in some respect.  You stated several times that you think "no fix, no fee" is fair as long as the customer is aware beforehand that is a possible outcome.  And that is exactly what people who work independently stated they do!  It wasn't until you started being a dick by putting words in our mouths, quoting/paraphrasing wildly incorrectly, and throwing insults that people started calling you a troll.

I've done this kind of work for over 5 years.  I'm passionate about 'Right to Repair'.  And empowing the customer/end user to fix things themselves.  Thats one of the reasons I started a YouTube channel which has now garnered attention for me to consider taking on some independent business.  Because the repair preventation strategies that equipment manufacturers employ in my industry are absurd and they piss me off.  So to have someone like you assume I don't care or would advocate for ripping the customer off when I am diametrically opposed to that, really pisses me off.  That is why I take it personal.

You asked about dollars.  I got the impression that most people in this debate are American, so I used dollars as a small courtesy.

You do realize that there's a little flag next to each member's name with the country they are from?  I see people from the UK, Australia,  Netherlands, and Germany all in disagreement with you.  So not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. 

[fmashockie]

In addition to that, I can't help but think your reason for starting this thread was a little bit personal because it was I who renewed a thread called 'How much should I charge my customers for component level repair?' asking for advice on going into business as a private entity.  And shortly after that, you started this thread.

This is from a quote for an OEM in my industry for repair of a piece of lab equipment:

• Base charge, 6 hrs labor/travel $3246.00
• Fine Print: If additional time or materials are needed based on findings while on site the purchase purchase order amount will need to be increased accordingly before further work is performed

So that is what my competition charges.  And they don't even do component level PCB repair.  They just swap boards.  I'll go head-to-head with the OEMs any day.  With half the resources.  So yes, I do think I'm worth the hourly rates I am considering charging privately.

[PlainName]

You do realize that there's a little flag next to each member's name with the country they are from?

And fmashockie is your real name.

Let's not be too naive about the answers to arbitrary privacy-intrusive questions.

[fmashockie]

You do realize that there's a little flag next to each member's name with the country they are from?

And fmashockie is your real name.

Let's not be too naive about the answers to arbitrary privacy-intrusive questions.

actually mashockie is the phonetic spelling of my last name.  And f stands for Frank, my first name.  So yea it kinda is.  Also, if you think incorrectly picking what country you're from on this website is some concrete way to maintain your privacy, I would think that the definition of niave.

[tooki]

A paranoid schizophrenic who is suffering from delusions doesn’t realize they’re delusions, either. Yet objectively, they are.

Your contrived situations of dishonest, untrained rip-off artists do nothing to validate your point. But they do make you look like a disingenuous crank.

Here we go again with your idiotic contrived situation. We established early on in the thread that EXPERTS can charge higher rates because of their expertise and experience. Nobody here except you is ever claiming that an incompetent technician is worth that.

Can you please, kindly, fuck off with the personal attacks?

You're not furthering your argument, you're only making yourself look look like the asshole here.  And the rest of us by association, that we might seem to tolerate or even accept such behavior.  I for one see fit to call out such behavior.

Steve, for his part, has been nothing but calm and patient with his point.  Insistent, unable to (or refusing to) reach or explain a common point of reference, but not "schizophrenic".  At worst, "troll", an accusation first raised by myself, and I stick to the reasoning given therewith: to the extent that reasoning applies, it's a factual statement, not a personal attack.  That's exactly as far as I meant to go with it, and no excuse for anyone else to go further.  It is certainly not reason to make it personal.

Only one of those three quotes contains anything that might be construed a personal attack, but even that one says “makes you look like a disingenuous crank”, not “you are a disingenuous crank”.

I never called him schizophrenic. I was simply illustrating via analogy that a person suffering from a delusion doesn’t know it’s a delusion.

And it’s the contrived situation that I called idiotic, not him.

As for his behavior, fmashockie covered that aspect pretty well.

P.S. And I see fit to call out OP’s behavior.

[PlainName]

some concrete way to maintain your privacy

Not at all (particularly since I've explicitly mentioned it many times). But every little helps, and "perfect is the enemy of good".

Oh, and  PlainName is my real name, kind of, if you move the letters about a bit. Maybe substitute a couple.

[SteveThackery]

But when you start assuming that because we do not advocate for "no fix, no fee" that we somehow lack empathy for the customer....

I stand by that assumption.  Many posters frothed with incredulous outrage at the very idea that "no fix/no fee" should EVER be considered. So yes, if you are one of those outraged posters who believes there are NO circumstances that justify no fix/no fee, I think you DO lack empathy for the customer.

...or that we approve of anyone ripping customers off by selecting any hourly/fixed rate they want without the expertise/skill to back it up, then you're being an asshole.  And that is exactly what you were doing.

I was using the well-known technique of the "logical conclusion" to illustrate that even when a position might seem reasonable at first glance, the "logical conclusion" highlights that it is actually morally bereft and profoundly selfish (for example), or based on a fallacy (for example), or is simply illogical (for example).

I'm surprised I'm having to explain this to you, it being such a common tool to illuminate the dark corners of a stance someone has taken.  But if it wasn't, then it's my fault and I apologise.

You stated several times that you think "no fix, no fee" is fair as long as the customer is aware beforehand that is a possible outcome.  And that is exactly what people who work independently stated they do! 

You've got yourself into an pickle here.  I've been advocating for "no fix/no fee" from the very beginning, against enormous resistance, it must be said.  I reluctantly but genuinely conceded that the opposite: "fee/no fix", might be justifiable if the customer is warned in advance.

It wasn't until you started being a dick by putting words in our mouths, quoting/paraphrasing wildly incorrectly, and throwing insults that people started calling you a troll.

I haven't insulted a single person, have I?  (Apart from any scumbag who called me a troll.) 

I also don't believe I've put words in mouths or misquoted anyone EXCEPT when doing the "logical conclusion" stuff to illustrate that the principle underlying someone's reasonable-sounding statement may actually be wrong/immoral/logically flawed/etc.

Clearly I got it wrong if so many people didn't realise what I was doing and why.  I thought the "logical conclusion" technique was so obvious and commonly used it didn't need any introduction.  I'm sorry for getting that wrong.

You do realize that there's a little flag next to each member's name with the country they are from?

Ooooh, no, I had no idea - I'd never even noticed the little flags.  What a plonker!  😂

[tooki]

But when you start assuming that because we do not advocate for "no fix, no fee" that we somehow lack empathy for the customer....

I stand by that assumption.  Many posters frothed with incredulous outrage at the very idea that "no fix/no fee" should EVER be considered. So yes, if you are one of those outraged posters who believes there are NO circumstances that justify no fix/no fee, I think you DO lack empathy for the customer.

No, what we objected to with incredulity is your assertion that “no fix, no fee” is the only model that’s acceptable.

We have acknowledged repeatedly that some service providers do choose that model, and explained to you the ramifications of that model, including how it is unfair to the customers whose repairs subsidize the “no fix, no fee” customers.

[fzabkar]

But when you start assuming that because we do not advocate for "no fix, no fee" that we somehow lack empathy for the customer....

I stand by that assumption.  Many posters frothed with incredulous outrage at the very idea that "no fix/no fee" should EVER be considered. So yes, if you are one of those outraged posters who believes there are NO circumstances that justify no fix/no fee, I think you DO lack empathy for the customer.

No, what we objected to with incredulity is your assertion that “no fix, no fee” is the only model that’s acceptable.

We have acknowledged repeatedly that some service providers do choose that model, and explained to you the ramifications of that model, including how it is unfair to the customers whose repairs subsidize the “no fix, no fee” customers.

The implication of that "subsidy" is that the repairer believes that all customers owe him/her a living.

Let's say I take my broken device to repairer A, and s/he spends 4 fruitless hours on it before writing it off as unrepairable. I then take the same device to repairer B who fixes it within an hour. Does repairer A deserve any recompense for their fruitless effort?

[shabaz]

The implication of that "subsidy" is that the repairer believes that all customers owe him/her a living.

No, it's not the implication. Think it through.

[MK14]

It's been tricky for me to reply to your post, but I will try.

"Don't be boring by banging on about trolling.  It's very tedious.  If you've got nothing constructive to say, then please don't say anything.  The grown-ups are having a conversation, so don't interrupt."

Seems to be accusing me of going or being off-topic.

Yet, the rest of your post, seems to be a long political or similar post, with little to do, with the thread topic.  If my quick glances at it, indicate correctly.

Given that you seem to have the UK flag set, and be talking and trying to sound like someone from the UK.

How come, all your prices are in dollars ($), e.g. see the post I just quoted.

Is that a Freudian slip-up, or is there another explanation?

I'm sorry for being rude, but it really pisses me off to be accused of being a "troll" when I am no such thing.  I am arguing for something I believe in passionately, and every statement I make - including the critical ones - is heartfelt and genuine.

So for those who continue to label me as a troll, kindly piss off. 

The "political" stuff you refer to is completely on-topic. It became clear that the practices most people on the thread find completely normal and acceptable, I find the opposite, and I was wondering if there could be a cultural basis to our different attitudes.

You asked about dollars.  I got the impression that most people in this debate are American, so I used dollars as a small courtesy.

I'm also pissed off by people misrepresenting my position.  I am not advocating open-ended working for free.  I am putting forward an argument that - just as you sometimes expect the customer to pay for nothing*, sometimes it might be morally appropriate for you to work for nothing. This would be rare, but sometimes fair.

(*) And no: the argument that the customer is paying for your labour, not the fruits of your labour, is self-serving and so full of holes it's laughable.  I don't feel the need to spell all that out again for you - we've done it to death.

I hope that has clarified the matters you raised. And again, I'm sorry for being rude, but I am NOT a fucking troll, and if anyone reading this is tempted to accuse me of such, either piss off or try to read and understand what I am actually advocating.

I think that is a good and robust answer, to my queries.
Thanks!

As far as I'm aware, we don't have actual evidence of the OP, being a known troll.
More suspicions and accusations (me included in that activity as well).
So maybe the innocent until proven guilty applies here?

I was following this thread, well BEFORE I first posted in it, and I've been unhappy at so many people boo-hewing, this possible business or self-employment model.

When a business or someone offers their services.  There are all sorts of possible business models, they can follow.  Including ones, which offer some of their services, for free.

But there can be clever business model sense, in these free offerings, if done right.

For example:
I'm not sure if it is still offered these days.  But some tyre companies, would offer free puncture repair.
It worked out (my theory on why), because in many cases, such as for safety reasons.  The customer will end up needing a new tyre(s).  So, getting them to come round for the free puncture repairs, will often (how often is a very good question?), result in lucrative tyre sales, and maybe other services that company offers, such as Oil Changes etc.

Hypothetical scenario:
A computer shop, could offer cheap old computer repairs.  As they either fix the computer or if it can't be economically fixed, they can sell the customer a new computer, that they sell and also charge for moving all the files from the old computer to the new one.

I.e. If done right, a specific business model, can be successful and profitable.

Even if it is NOT done right.  That maybe how an upcoming self-employed or business, learns from their mistakes and later on improves upon and refines their business model.

E.g.
Amazon, started out, simple selling books online.  They then improved their business model and now sell, just about anything, within reason.

[coromonadalix]

6 pages already ...   

Has Dave implemented some test, based on the contents of this thread, which you have to complete before you can read a different thread? Or can you still just shrug and ignore the entire thing if it's not to your liking?

i would reply   it is becoming very sad here  to see many threads derailing that way ... and  i say many     until a mod is called  to shut them down

trolling, religious, political  .... yada yada     this and that     

do you  "some of you members,  whom the hat fits"  re-read all ??       where some here took everything so personal, and get flustered very easily  ..... 


the pay by hour .......    is not how it works in majority NOW, not happy, do it your self,  or go elsewhere,  if you work by tariff   it's plug and play parts and voila ... but to do so, you did work hours and establish your tarifs rates  .... SIMPLE AS THAT

now this thread too became stupid,  and  people wont simply stop ... BECAUSE THEY CANT, ITS BECOME PERSONAL   


now the signal is if we put aside "some or many serious threads with lots of pages"       IS WHEN I SEE LOTS OF PAGES OF A REALLY NEW THREAD  I"LL SIMPLY SKIP IT

EEVBLOG IS BECOMMING DARKER

[Gyro]

I can't understand how this thread has stretched to 7 pages. I get fed up with people thinking my (or other peoples') skills have no value, including my neighbors who seen to think that my time (and component stock) are free.

As long as the repairer makes clear to the customer their terms of business, and the customer agrees to them, I can't see why there can be any problem. They form a binding contract to that effect. It doesn't matter what the repairer's charging model is as long as the customer agrees. Whether that charging model includes a fixed hourly charge, free first hour, no repair - no fee, or some other model is totally irrelevant.

Until a contract is formed. The customer has the option of deciding that the cost and conditions are not worth their while and walk away. The repairer also has the option of declining to accept an item for repair.

 

[SteveThackery]

We have acknowledged repeatedly that some service providers do choose that model, and explained to you the ramifications of that model, including how it is unfair to the customers whose repairs subsidize the “no fix, no fee” customers.

That's clever!  But they don't. The repairer subsidises the no fix/no fee.  The repairer goes home a little bit poorer that day, and that's how it should be. The repairer's labour rate is either competitive or the customers go elsewhere.

[coromonadalix]

NO  some of them  will charge a displacement trip fee "normally 1 hour minimum",   here in my country   ...  even if a repair has not been made nor being contracted,

even for a 10-15 min  eye check ...


master electrician, construction workers in some domains
tow trucking
car / truck garages,   electric appliances technicians ... and many others, 

they wont come if you don't agree to pay the "displacement"

[SteveThackery]

I get fed up with people thinking my (or other peoples') skills have no value.....

This is what is known as "argument by non sequiteur"! 😄

Nobody, ever, anywhere in this thread has said your (or other's) skills have no value.

As long as the repairer makes clear to the customer their terms of business, and the customer agrees to them, I can't see why there can be any problem. They form a binding contract to that effect. It doesn't matter what the repairer's charging model is as long as the customer agrees. Whether that charging model includes a fixed hourly charge, free first hour, no repair - no fee, or some other model is totally irrelevant.

Until a contract is formed. The customer has the option of deciding that the cost and conditions are not worth their while and walk away. The repairer also has the option of declining to accept an item for repair.

Totally agree.  It is remarkable how few contributors to this thread embraced that at the beginning, or expressed it so clearly.

However there is still the issue with the whole "charging by the hour" model, which has a fundamental shortcoming. I'll quote what I wrote earlier:

"The problem with charging by the hour is that it looks to the customer like an open-ended money-making racket. The key issue here is that the risk is all on the customer, not shared between the two of you. You can sit back and take your time, or you can work quickly, secure in the knowledge that you will take home $200 for every hour spent.  Even hours spent reading the newspaper. The customer has no such security - they know you can charge whatever you like (they have no idea how long it really took you).

That's why, from the customer's point of view, a firm quotation with no fix/no fee is the only fair billing model."

I am serious about this.  If you cannot give the customer a pretty solid indication of how much they'll be charged at the end, then they are entering a pretty scary situation, one in which you have all the power (because you decide how many hours it took) and they have none (because you've got their product in your possession).

That's why I favour quoting the customer a "price plus caveats".  By that I mean:

1/ "The charge will be between these two values, and if I can't fix it there'll be no charge."

2/ "The charge will be between these two values whether or not I fix it."

3/ "I charge $50 to evaluate the problem, which you must pay up front and is non-refundable. I will then give you a quote which you can accept or not.  If you choose to proceed and it turns out I cannot do the repair, there will be no further charge. If I discover that more work is required than I quoted for, I will contact you, and you can decide either to proceed or have the product back unrepaired, at no further charge beyond the initial evaluation fee."

.....blah blah, and endless variants on that theme.  To be honest, I don't think option 2/ would be acceptable to many customers because it is an open-ended money-maker, but I fear it is often all they are offered.  Certainly by car workshops!

There are endless detailed variants on 3/, but I like the basic idea because the repairer never takes on a job unevaluated; and the customer never has to enter an open-ended, unlimited cost contract. Obviously it isn't possible to eliminate risk entirely for the reasons we have explored in detail in this thread.

[SteveThackery]

NO  some of them  will charge a displacement trip fee "normally 1 hour minimum",   here in my country   ...  even if a repair has not been made nor being contracted,

even for a 10-15 min  eye check ...

And that is totally unacceptable.  Morally, they MUST make it clear up front what they will do and what they will charge.

[coromonadalix]

oh but they do  here  ....

morally       man  .....   as my last comment here 

they don't give a damn,  why, because clients,  where not sure, tried many people at the same time trying to get a better deal or prices etc ...

at some point they had enough being trolled too ... and began to charge,  client(s) are not perfect too BTW 

IM 53   i have seen so much things change over the years, things where reliable in the past, you could get 15years out of service

now 5 years  pfffffffffff   dont make me laugh, some reputable brands after 1 year   dump their parts

and some even use covid as pretext IE:  no more parts, bad parts availability  the list goes on and on ....  buy new   buy new    ....   consume mooooore  that's the keyword here in Canada


much has to be learn  here  ....  even in some usa countries too

[SteveThackery]

Totally agree that clients aren't perfect by any means. In the world of clock and watch repairs it is quite common for a repair to cost more than the commercial value of the product, because many clocks and watches have a strong sentimental value. One thing that sometimes happens is that the customer realises they don't miss their clock very much after all, so they just never come back and pay.  The repairer is left with a clock they've just spent four hours on and which might fetch a hundred bucks on eBay if they are lucky.

Perhaps you could campaign to introduce better business practices in your country.😄

[SteveThackery]

The repairer is left with a clock they've just spent four hours on and which might fetch a hundred bucks on eBay if they are lucky.

Another nasty little trick the clients do: they will claim that some sort of pre-existing damage wasn't there when they dropped the clock off.  I don't know if they genuinely believe it or just fancy getting some money back  The only solution is to photograph the item I detail while they are watching, with your camera set to overlay the date and time on each picture.

Anyway, drifting off topic a bit!

[Simon]

Reading another thread on this topic got me thinking about all the things wrong with charging by the hour.

Yes, 99% of repairers charge by the hour. But change your point of view to that of a customer.  Firstly, charging by the hour encourages the repairer to work as slowly as possible. If the repairer wants to treat themselves to something nice but expensive, all they need to do is slow down and take longer over each repair.  Yes, I know that sometimes you have enough work that you don't need to stretch it out, but the customer doesn't know that. All they know is that it is in your interest to work as slowly as possible.  So why should they trust you?

Secondly, the more incompetent you are, the longer it takes you to do a repair.  In other words, the customer pays an incompetent repairer more than a competent one.  How is that OK?

Thirdly, charging a customer for your time when you have failed to fix something is profoundly unfair.  You see, you might charge the customer for your time, but the customer doesn't want your time; that's not what they are interested in.  They want their appliance fixing.  They are paying for a repair, not for half a day of you farting about and getting nowhere with it.  I once had a really tricky intermittent misfire on a car which I couldn't find, so I took it to a technician who had loads of fancy diagnostic equipment and was considered to be a genuine expert.  He had a monthly column in a trade magazine.  Anyway, he hooked up the car and messed about for two hours before giving up. He charged me for two hours labour - something like £180, I think.  I paid up but felt utterly ripped off. I drove the car there with a misfire.  Two hours later I drove the car away, still with a misfire, but £180 poorer.  I paid out money and got nothing.  I was pretty pissed off.

These issues are all due to the broken business model repairers use.  There is a disconnect between what the customer wants and what you provide.  No customer wants to buy your time. A customer wants to buy a repair.  It is irrelevant to the customer whether it takes you ten minutes or ten hours - they just want their widget to work and to pay what feels like a fair price.

Maybe every job should start with an up-front firm quote to the customer, and should include a no fix / no fee commitment.  If that is too restrictive, then give the customer an estimate and say that you will contact them to ask their agreement to proceed if you find you need to charge more for the repair.  But again, NO FIX, NO FEE!

What say you?

If only the repair was an item in the spare catalogue......

[fzabkar]

Perhaps you could campaign to introduce better business practices in your country.😄

Louis Rossmann is already doing that. It's called "Right to Repair". Unfortunately US politicians on both sides are in the pockets of Big Business, so any legislation is routinely undermined. In fact, you can see the vast cultural difference between the EU and USA just in the levels of the fines handed down against big players such as Apple and Google. EU fines target the revenue of these companies, whereas FTC fines are written off as minor annoyances.

[PlainName]

6 pages already ...   

Has Dave implemented some test, based on the contents of this thread, which you have to complete before you can read a different thread? Or can you still just shrug and ignore the entire thing if it's not to your liking?

i would reply   it is becoming very sad here  to see many threads derailing that way ... and  i say many     until a mod is called  to shut them down

If you don't like it, don't contribute. Then if no-one does it will die a death on its own. Problem solved.

What you mean is the discussion - on topic, off topic, whatever it is or wherever it goes - is not to your liking. Clearly, other users are participating for whatever reasons of their own. The solution: just ignore it. Problem solved.

he pay by hour .......    is not how it works in majority NOW, not happy, do it your self,  or go elsewhere,  if you work by tariff   it's plug and play parts and voila ... but to do so, you did work hours and establish your tarifs rates  .... SIMPLE AS THAT

See - the problem is that your view hasn't been accepted in its entirety by everyone, and that's why you are peeved. It it was 7 pages of agreeing with you you'd think very differently!

There are threads on this board that I don't look at once I've seen what they are and where they will go. I don't miss them. I don't demand they're locked because they're too dumb for me to follow.

Long threads are not themselves an issue. Looke at TEA. The issue is simply what you get out of it, not what other people do. Just ignore the thread. Please.

[PlainName]

Another nasty little trick the clients do: they will claim that some sort of pre-existing damage wasn't there when they dropped the clock off.

Maybe they do, but it is very similar to when I take my car to be serviced: when I get it back, perhaps a day or week later something goes wrong. Did they break it so I'd have to go back to them? It seems very coincidental, and the temptation is to think it is something they did.

Actually, once it was them (a breather not put back right, and it took me several weeks to realise the issue was real and take it back). But I try not to think  badly of them now, even though another time they didn't reset the service light and I had to take it back for that.

And indeed, last time there was an engine light fault. Amazingly it started the evening before I was to take the car in for a service, so just a day different and I'd have automatically thought they'd done something when I got it back and it started showing the fault.

Anyway, I mention this just to say that I am sure that often the client is not doing it deliberately or as a trick, but as a normal human reaction to coincidence. Of course, there will be some that are actual toerags, but I think they would be outliers.